Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Talrassha00 09-02-04, 04:43 AM	I wasn't sure where to put this, as this is my first post here. Anyway I switch DMing every other weekend with a friend of mine and last session I had an AoO question come up. I Have a player who took the order of the bow intiate prestige class and took at least one level as a monk before that. He was using a bow and an AoO situation came up (something left his threatened square to attack someone else). I said because he was wielding a bow at the time he didn't get an AoO, he said because UA strikes aren't just fist/elbow/arm attacks and he was proficient with all parts of his body he should. I eventually settled with giving him the two weapon fighting penalty and allowing him to make the AoO (he described it as trying to kick the opponet as he left...and missing horribly). Anyway sorry for the long story, but does the character with Improved UA strike threaten squares with a bow (or another range weapon)?
Kheldren 09-02-04, 04:52 AM	This is one of those grey areas not defined by the rules - oh well. (I also hope you applied a lrge penalty to his next bow attack.) I would rule no - yes he is proficient at using any part of his body to attack with, but currently his attention is focused on re-loading the bow and choosing his next target. Also consider things like Power Attack - they last for the entire round implying that a character cannot switch attack modes that fast. Another problem with ruling "yes" is that it would become fairly logical for Improved Unarmed Strike to mean he can deny AoOs when attacking with a bow next to someone - which is ridiculous. Summary: for this round his attention is on the bow and not unarmed attacks - hence no AoO.
Egres 09-02-04, 07:59 AM	He gets the AoO. From the SRD: This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full.
Kheldren 09-02-04, 08:19 AM	Egres has a very good point and almost convinced me to change my mind on this, but I would still go with the focus of attention ruling. Does anyone want to post to back up making the AoO and change my mind?
q'afuu 09-02-04, 08:22 AM	What's more, he doesn't get the penalties for attacking with two weapons because he isn't attacking with two weapons. edit: Ok, comparison example. 1) A character is wielding a quarterstaff like a double weapon, making an extra attack during his turn and suffering penalties to hit for it. At the end of his turn, there's no point for that character to keep wielding the staff this way - if he gets an AoO, he's better off using it as a single, two-handed weapon. In order to get this advantage, he gets ready to use his weapon in the latter style. This doesn't cost an action, it's like slightly changing his grip or something. At the start of his next turn, he merely shifts his grip back to the way he had it during his previous turn and he's all set for more TWF staff swinging. 2) A character is wielding a bow and shooting arrows with it during his turn. At the end of his turn, there's no point for that character to keep wielding the bow this way - if he wants to get an AoO, he has to be using it as an improvised weapon or threatening with an unarmed strike. In order to get this advantage, he gets ready to use his weapon in the latter style or to use a fist or to kick someone. This doesn't cost an action, it's like slightly changing his grip or something. At the start of his next turn, he merely shifts his grip back to the way he had it during his previous turn and he's all set for more arrow shooting. See where I'm going with this?
Kheldren 09-02-04, 09:22 AM	I see where you are going q'afuu, but I think you have it dead wrong! OK I am using Power Attack as my counter example, but I think it fits your quarterstaff nicely. You set your grip on your weapon to put your strength behind your blows (Power Attack) for the next swing you make. You are not able to reset your strength (turing PA off) until your next action - any AoO must take the same Power Attack (or Expertise etc) modifiers as your attacks on your last action. So for the quarterstaff I would rule tht you are holding it in 2-weapon fighting mode and your Power Attack must take the 2wf penalties. Now looking at the SRD: Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one. Shifting between 2wf and 1wf grips is akin to drawing or putting away a weapon in this context. Yes I agree that for a staff this is slightly silly, but if you consider that the 1wf stance is probably using it like a spear to keep your opponent at a distance (which is how I used one when I larped - it's the unskilled technique really) then switching to the classic staff hold is non trivial (and in reality might even provoke an AoO!) Now on to the bow - you said "At the end of his turn", now whilst the combat system works this way it is trying to model continuous combat so the one thing an archer would not do is pause and put away their bow for 5 seconds out of every 6. It would be wrong to argue that he can't put the bow away as a free action becuase it is strung beacuse, whilst true, this is irrelevant - all he is doing is (as you say) "unreadying it" and looking to hit people with is feet and other hand. (Oh yes - bows are not a good choice for an improvised wepon if you want it to work afterwards.) Looking at it like this then logically you are correct - though I like Talrassha00's idea of a 2-weapon fighting penalty to keep the bow out of trouble (which presumably should apply as a penalty to his next bow attack as well - technically for the entire round). I still feel that the answer should be "no", but your example convinces me that there is a very good case for the 2WF penalty, but I do believe that you have got the quarterstaff example 100% wrong based on extrapolating power attack etc - combat modifiers have to apply for an entire round.
Kiri Sittori 09-02-04, 09:24 AM	This is one of those grey areas not defined by the rules - oh well. (I also hope you applied a lrge penalty to his next bow attack.) I would rule no - yes he is proficient at using any part of his body to attack with, but currently his attention is focused on re-loading the bow and choosing his next target. Also consider things like Power Attack - they last for the entire round implying that a character cannot switch attack modes that fast. Another problem with ruling "yes" is that it would become fairly logical for Improved Unarmed Strike to mean he can deny AoOs when attacking with a bow next to someone - which is ridiculous. Summary: for this round his attention is on the bow and not unarmed attacks - hence no AoO. Actually, the "second" problem isn't necessary: Improved Unarmed only negates AoO's for the action of "melee attack: unarmed." The act of shooting a bow (like other AoO-provokers) is an act which reduces *general* combat readiness. So, yes, a monk wielding a bow may be considered to be "holding" the bow outside of his turn, and may take kick AoO's if these are provoked, as normal.
Talrassha00 09-03-04, 05:34 AM	Thanks for responding and I can see it from both sides. The problem is this...if you treat combat as he takes his turn and waits for everyone else to finish, then absolutely, he fires a couple arrows and is standing around watching with his guard up, and sneaks in a UA strike when an opponet puts his defenses down. But if you treat combat as a smooth continuation and prorgession from one turn to the next AND acknowledge the rules that you normally don't get AoO with a bow, then it makes no sense what so ever. He fired two arrows in his 6 seconds, the time in between the arrows was spent grabbing another arrow to be fired, dodging, waiting for the clerics head to shift a little to the right to get that shot in. When someone opens themselves up defensively he is simply not prepared to react to it. This is why I applied the two weapon fighting penalty. He can try to react using techniques he has been taught in the past, but having a bow in one hand, and an arrow in the other kinda throws off the balance and aim a bit, not to mention his UA strikes have to work around the bow itself. It was the best solution at the time I came up with...unfortanetly that character got hit by a flesh to stone trap...and the BBEG in the next room forced the party (which was reduced by 2 members cause of them setting off 3 flesh to stone traps...and failing 2 of the saves). The other two ran failing there will saves on a symbol of fear inscribed in the back wall...and the other two quickly dimension doored out leaving the statues to be desecrated.
Warewolf 09-05-04, 04:48 PM	But if you treat combat as a smooth continuation and prorgession from one turn to the next AND acknowledge the rules that you normally don't get AoO with a bow, then it makes no sense what so ever. He fired two arrows in his 6 seconds, the time in between the arrows was spent grabbing another arrow to be fired, dodging, waiting for the clerics head to shift a little to the right to get that shot in. When someone opens themselves up defensively he is simply not prepared to react to it. Actually, his turn doesn't take 6 seconds but rather the entire round. If you've ever watched martial arts sequences in movies (or any combat scene) you'll notice there's a lot that can be done in a mere 6 seconds. This is why I applied the two weapon fighting penalty. He can try to react using techniques he has been taught in the past, but having a bow in one hand, and an arrow in the other kinda throws off the balance and aim a bit, not to mention his UA strikes have to work around the bow itself. Just because he has his hands full doesn't mean he can't throw an elbow, kick, headbutt, or even punch him with the his clenched fist in which the arrow is being held (ex. Legolas is furiously shooting arrows into the oncoming orcs, one gets too close so he stabs him in the throat with the arrow he just pulled then proceeds to fire it at another). I understand stabbing with an arrow isn't an unarmed strike, but in combat, any seasoned combatant is capable of switching his attention several times at any given moment, if he wasn't then he'd not have become so seasoned. Another thing you have to realize is that combat is not about "okay, I'm going to shoot this guy, pull my arrow and shoot the next guy." There's very little thought as to how you react, but more instinct. Which means, using the monk example, if he's shooting his bow and the foe next to him lowers his defense, that foot or elbow or fist is going to strike from sheer instinctive reflex. That's the beauty of being a monk, you can ALWAYS attack unarmed (unless of course you're immobilized). If you take that ability away from him, then you've crippled a very important strength of the monk.
Kheldren 09-05-04, 05:24 PM	Actually, his turn doesn't take 6 seconds but rather the entire round. If you've ever watched martial arts sequences in movies (or any combat scene) you'll notice there's a lot that can be done in a mere 6 seconds.6 seconds is the entire round (one round being 6 seconds). Now I agree that an awful lot can happen in six seconds of melee combat - absolutely so. Now think about archery - 2 arrows aimed and fired in 6 seconds is fast, 3 is incredible and 4 is just asking to mess up. So the archer is performing an action (well 2 - the same one twice) that will take up the entire 6 seconds and most of his concentration, add to that he is giving some thought to defence (not much - enough to keep his dex bonus, but not enough to prevent his offering AoOs (I don't know the OotBI PC so he may not be)) - in my book he does not have the concentration spare to make an AoO, but if he does I fully support he 2WF penalty. There's very little thought as to how you react, but more instinct.Someone who is an archer please confirm deny this, but I think you will find instinct may be how you choose your target, but if you try to fire a bow on instinct you are going to mess up - probably big time. In fact, if he is using his monk-trained combat instinmcts when holding a bow he will probably break it over his opponent's head - oops. Melee insticts are very good for melee, but archery? - probably worse than useless.
psionichamster 09-05-04, 06:16 PM	Someone who is an archer please confirm deny this, but I think you will find instinct may be how you choose your target, but if you try to fire a bow on instinct you are going to mess up - probably big time. In fact, if he is using his monk-trained combat instinmcts when holding a bow he will probably break it over his opponent's head - oops. Melee insticts are very good for melee, but archery? - probably worse than useless. actually, if you take 5 people and tell them to draw the bow, place the arrow, pull to full extension, etc. etc. they will miss 9 times out of ten take those same 5 people (they're imaginary, so they can have the "first time shooting a bow" experience twice)...but this time, tell them to pick up the bow and shoot the target...at relatively close range...40 ft or less, usually, they can put that arrow on the bale more like 7 or 8 times out of ten... your eyes and hands are intimately connected...and "point shooting" like American "Wild West" quickdraws, shotgunning, and quick and dirty archery are more about instinct and intuition than training and practice...when you get better at it, then your mind starts to come into play...and when you need to shoot at longer ranges, forget about point and shoot...you'll fall way short so, no, i would say that his monk training will cause him to punch with the hand NOT holding the bow itself (most likely his right, if he's righthanded he'll push the bow with his left and draw with his right) or kick, headbutt, knee, whatever... so, yes, if someone is using a non-threatening weapon, i.e. reach weapon, whip, ranged weapon, but have IUS, they are threatening that area around then and CAN make AoO's...without penalty, AFAIC... the hamster
q'afuu 09-05-04, 07:18 PM	1) You set your grip on your weapon to put your strength behind your blows (Power Attack) for the next swing you make. You are not able to reset your strength (turing PA off) until your next action - any AoO must take the same Power Attack (or Expertise etc) modifiers as your attacks on your last action. So for the quarterstaff I would rule tht you are holding it in 2-weapon fighting mode and your Power Attack must take the 2wf penalties. 2) Now looking at the SRD: Shifting between 2wf and 1wf grips is akin to drawing or putting away a weapon in this context. 3) Now on to the bow - you said "At the end of his turn", now whilst the combat system works this way it is trying to model continuous combat so the one thing an archer would not do is pause and put away their bow for 5 seconds out of every 6. 4) I still feel that the answer should be "no", but your example convinces me that there is a very good case for the 2WF penalty, but I do believe that you have got the quarterstaff example 100% wrong based on extrapolating power attack etc - combat modifiers have to apply for an entire round.1) So? PA can still apply - you keep the same penalty to hit and corresponding bonus to damage. The only difference is that that extra damage will get multiplied by a different factor depending on handedness at the moment of the strike. 2) Akin to how? Drawing a weapon is a move action, possibly combinable with a regular move or reduced to a free action by a feat. Sheatheing it is awlays a move action. Switching between 1- and 2-handed is definitely not a move action. In fact, I can hold a sword in one hand, throw a dagger with the other and then swing the sword with both hands all during the same full attack action, by the rules. What's more, I can even use Power Attack and/or Combat Expertise while doing so. 3) By that logic a spellcaster using his turn to cast a spell should be penalized when he tries to take an AoO during the same round as well. 4) The combat modifiers that should apply for a full round are clearly labeled as such: PA and CE, for instance. Others don't, like the modifiers for attacking with two weapons - those don't apply when making an AoO (since AoOs are always taken at full normal attack bonus - PHB p. 138) during a round in which you attacked with two weapons and suffered penalties to hit for that.
Warewolf 09-06-04, 02:52 AM	Now think about archery - 2 arrows aimed and fired in 6 seconds is fast, 3 is incredible and 4 is just asking to mess up. Okay, I have to return to the Lord of the Rings scene in Fellowship of the Ring when Legolas is whipping out arrow after arrow in swift repetition (It's an awesome scene). But watch that scene and time how long it takes for him to fire his arrows. He shoots 5 arrows in the span of 6 seconds (and even stalls a bit on the last one). Now he's an awesome archer obviously and by the time a character is able to shoot 5 arrows in a round, well...he's an awesome character. Now add to it that this character has spent time learning to control his body in ways most others have not imagined (monk) and tell me this character would not be able to take a shot, spin kick the foe next to him as he retreives another arrow from his quiver, lands on his feet, nocks the arrow and fires at another foe in a matter of 6 seconds. I see it quite possible for one of such skill. in my book he does not have the concentration spare to make an AoO, but if he does I fully support he 2WF penalty. That's the thing, if you can't make it logical in your mind as to why the rules apply as they do, then you can make a houserule to apply your penalty to the situation, but in the D&D book, the AoO is presented and the free attack is applicable without penalty via unarmed attack.
Kheldren 09-06-04, 03:19 AM	(since AoOs are always taken at full normal attack bonus - PHB p. 138) Good catch - I wish you had pointed this one out earlier - I had totally forgotten it and it removes 90% of my case. (can't find a smilie with a white flag) (In fact I regard your last post as a very neat demolition of my position - I think you have convinced me!)