Aotrs Highly Dubious (but Easy) Fighter Modification [Archive] - Wizards Community

Aotrs Highly Dubious (but Easy) Fighter Modification [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
aotrscommander
02-09-07, 10:29 AM Preee-senting - with great trepidation - the...

Aotrs Highly Dubious (but Easy) Fighter Modification!

At 3rd level, and every odd level thereafter, Fighters gain a bonus feat. This can be any feat (not just a fighter feat) like those gained at level up.

(Yeah, that's it...)

*casts 27 defensive buffs, jumps into powered armour and turn on shield generator*

Sigh...I didn't really want to drag this up here, since there are so many of these floating around (I posted this in the CharOp, hoping they'd slice it to ribbons, but I've only had a handful of contradictory responces!) So, I shall brave the withering fire as is my due for bringing up another Fighter thread, and one without even all the bells and whistles of Seerow's or Otto's or Chimaera2000's (etc)...

Rational:
1: Why no ToB a) I don't want start inundating the world with Martial Adepts,partly for flavour reasons, partly since the latter are designed to be comparable with spell casters and part of the world schick is that magic is uncommon. So replacing casters/manifesters with initatiors doesn't really get me anywhere. (And I'll be damned if I'm amking up umpteen kabillion manoeuvres usably by animals/dinosaurs/non magic-usign monsters!) Therefore, I'd like to keep the baseline melee character (i.e Fighter) not being an initator
b) Tempest_Stormwind's Falling Star style (huzzah!)aside, ToB does nothing to help fighters that want a ranged or other emphasis.
c) I've not played with ToB yet in anger, and so can only guess where it will fit in in the world (where, for example from level one there are liable to be flying enemies).

2: Our own experience with fighters (albeit this is low-to-mid level - the highest party we've so far got is 14th) is that they don't noticably suck in comparison (yet). Or we just don't mind being meatsheild for the casters, one of the two!

3: So, granting fighters bonus whatever feats in theory will branch out their flexibility (which is, let's face it, the only advantage the fighter has got). For example, I noted that armed with this modification, it was possible to get every single Feat that prerequisites of Point Blank Shot, plus Dodge, Mobility, the weapon focus tree and Ranged weapon Spec with a couple of feats spare. It open out other options (like Combat form or even Wild Talent/psionic feats) that before would have reduced the fighter's given area of specialiation.

Side note: Our group does not heavily PrC, so we are likely to get Fighter 20s even if I don't do squat and Warblades are around. Yes, they/we ae like that...

Problems: In opening this can of gubbins, the main problem I foresee is that this may enable Fighters to qualify for PrC with comparative ease.

No Capstone ability (maybe multiple feats at level 20!?)

This ability is either not especially helpful to fighters (in terms of Feat =/= Manoeuvre) or is ludicrously overpowered, allowing feat combos hitherto unheard of (but I can't see any immediate ones myself, which is why I went to TherOp.) (Is making the fighter hideously overpowered through use of feats even possible?)

So, I shall now retire to my bomb-proof bunker in the middle distance, to address/weather your comments/abuse (and, in the unlikely event, praise) to the communicator over there...

*Backs away slowly then turns and dives for cover*

Edit: After further consideration - and implementation of Stage 1 - I have added the following:

Warrior NPC Class
Warriors gain a bonus Fighter Feat (any feat on the Fighter bonus list that does not require class levels of fighter) at 1st level and againa t 3rd level and every 3rd level thereafter.

(Hey, warriors suck so bad even they needed the boost!)

Iron Will:
Special: If a Fighter or Warrior selects this feat, he does not gain a +2 to his Will save; rather his Will save progression becomes Good (1/2 Fighter level +2).

Lightning Reflexes:
Special: If a Fighter or Warrior selects this feat, he does not gain a +2 to his Reflex save; rather his Reflex save progression becomes Good (1/2 Fighter level +2).
kadeity
02-09-07, 10:36 AM so your suggestion is a feat every level?
with half being fighter feats and half being ANY feat?

honestly...its nice...
but still doenst help the fighter.

More feats doesnt solve his problem.
His problem IS FEATS.
how they work, not how many.
Chimaera2000
02-09-07, 01:22 PM Our group uses the same fix. At the very least, it addresses that problem of dead levels and it easy to implement. It's true that it doesn't solve the majority of a the fighter's problems, but at least there are more reasons to take it beyond level two with this fix.
Gecon
02-09-07, 01:33 PM Uuuuh... maybe it would be better if some more fighter specific feats would be introduced ? Stuff that needs fighter level X.

Even if, honestly, I would give up if anyone asks me to get fighter to the same power level as wizard. Wouldn't have a clue how to do that.
Ghenesh
02-09-07, 02:03 PM I would give up if anyone asks me to get fighter to the same power level as wizard. Wouldn't have a clue how to do that.Giving the fighter spells instead of bonus feats :rimshot: .

I don't like the idea of 20 bonus feats, but i also dislike classes with no interesting features so they scream "Multiclass me". Fighter and Sorcerer being the greatest core offenders.

My solution on the fighter is using the 14 bonus feats fighter (that's three feats more than the regular fighter), increasing the skill points per level to 4 + Int modifier and filling the remaining 6 dead levels with little boosts to their defenses (+3 to any save and +3 dodge AC bonus).

Something like:

The Fighter

Game Rule Information:

Abilities: Fighters benefit from a high Strength score since it affects the use of his weapons. A high Constitution score is always appreciated in a Fighter, given that as front liners many attacks will be directed to them.

Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: The Fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Combat and War)(Int), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at each additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Table 1: The Fighter
Fort Ref Will
Level BAB Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Fighter Bonus Feat
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Fighter Bonus Feat
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Fighter's Resistance
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Fighter Bonus Feat
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Fighter Bonus Feat
6th +6 +5 +2 +2 Dodge AC Bonus +1
7th +7 +5 +2 +2 Fighter Bonus Feat
8th +8 +6 +2 +2 Fighter Bonus Feat
9th +9 +6 +3 +3 Fighter's Resistance
10th +10 +7 +3 +3 Fighter Bonus Feat
11th +11 +7 +3 +3 Fighter Bonus Feat
12th +12 +8 +4 +4 Dodge AC Bonus +2
13th +13 +8 +4 +4 Fighter Bonus Feat
14th +14 +9 +4 +4 Fighter Bonus Feat
15th +15 +9 +5 +5 Fighter's Resistance
16th +16 +10 +5 +5 Fighter Bonus Feat
17th +17 +10 +5 +5 Fighter Bonus Feat
18th +18 +11 +6 +6 Dodge AC Bonus +3
19th +19 +11 +6 +6 Fighter Bonus Feat
20th +20 +12 +6 +6 Fighter Bonus Feat
Fighter's Resistance (ex): Beginning at 3rd level and every 6 levels thereafter (again at 9th and 15th levels) the Fighter gains a +1 bonus on a saving throw of her choice.

Dodge AC Bonus (ex): Beginning at 6th level and every 6 levels thereafter (again at 12th and 18th levels) the Fighter gains a +1 dodge bonus to his AC.
aotrscommander
02-11-07, 07:39 AM So then, the concensus as stands seems to be that the extra feat are not going to make the Fighter teh Uber. (Which is wat I thougt!) Well, the upcoming campaign has a couple of Fighter characters (well a fighter 14 and a Fighter/Ranger 7/7ish), so I'll have chance to put it into practise and find out for sure!
aotrscommander
02-15-07, 08:24 PM While implementing this fix to my current adventure, I decided to 'scale' as it were the save feats Iron will and Lightning Reflexes (see editied OP) and made a tweak to Warriors while I'm at it.

I may scale other feats somewhere ese down the line, but that seemed a good start!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aotrscommander 02-09-07, 10:29 AM	Preee-senting - with great trepidation - the... Aotrs Highly Dubious (but Easy) Fighter Modification! At 3rd level, and every odd level thereafter, Fighters gain a bonus feat. This can be any feat (not just a fighter feat) like those gained at level up. (Yeah, that's it...) casts 27 defensive buffs, jumps into powered armour and turn on shield generator Sigh...I didn't really want to drag this up here, since there are so many of these floating around (I posted this in the CharOp, hoping they'd slice it to ribbons, but I've only had a handful of contradictory responces!) So, I shall brave the withering fire as is my due for bringing up another Fighter thread, and one without even all the bells and whistles of Seerow's or Otto's or Chimaera2000's (etc)... Rational: 1: Why no ToB a) I don't want start inundating the world with Martial Adepts,partly for flavour reasons, partly since the latter are designed to be comparable with spell casters and part of the world schick is that magic is uncommon. So replacing casters/manifesters with initatiors doesn't really get me anywhere. (And I'll be damned if I'm amking up umpteen kabillion manoeuvres usably by animals/dinosaurs/non magic-usign monsters!) Therefore, I'd like to keep the baseline melee character (i.e Fighter) not being an initator b) Tempest_Stormwind's Falling Star style (huzzah!)aside, ToB does nothing to help fighters that want a ranged or other emphasis. c) I've not played with ToB yet in anger, and so can only guess where it will fit in in the world (where, for example from level one there are liable to be flying enemies). 2: Our own experience with fighters (albeit this is low-to-mid level - the highest party we've so far got is 14th) is that they don't noticably suck in comparison (yet). Or we just don't mind being meatsheild for the casters, one of the two! 3: So, granting fighters bonus whatever feats in theory will branch out their flexibility (which is, let's face it, the only advantage the fighter has got). For example, I noted that armed with this modification, it was possible to get every single Feat that prerequisites of Point Blank Shot, plus Dodge, Mobility, the weapon focus tree and Ranged weapon Spec with a couple of feats spare. It open out other options (like Combat form or even Wild Talent/psionic feats) that before would have reduced the fighter's given area of specialiation. Side note: Our group does not heavily PrC, so we are likely to get Fighter 20s even if I don't do squat and Warblades are around. Yes, they/we ae like that... Problems: In opening this can of gubbins, the main problem I foresee is that this may enable Fighters to qualify for PrC with comparative ease. No Capstone ability (maybe multiple feats at level 20!?) This ability is either not especially helpful to fighters (in terms of Feat =/= Manoeuvre) or is ludicrously overpowered, allowing feat combos hitherto unheard of (but I can't see any immediate ones myself, which is why I went to TherOp.) (Is making the fighter hideously overpowered through use of feats even possible?) So, I shall now retire to my bomb-proof bunker in the middle distance, to address/weather your comments/abuse (and, in the unlikely event, praise) to the communicator over there... Backs away slowly then turns and dives for cover Edit: After further consideration - and implementation of Stage 1 - I have added the following: Warrior NPC Class Warriors gain a bonus Fighter Feat (any feat on the Fighter bonus list that does not require class levels of fighter) at 1st level and againa t 3rd level and every 3rd level thereafter. (Hey, warriors suck so bad even they needed the boost!) Iron Will: Special: If a Fighter or Warrior selects this feat, he does not gain a +2 to his Will save; rather his Will save progression becomes Good (1/2 Fighter level +2). Lightning Reflexes: Special: If a Fighter or Warrior selects this feat, he does not gain a +2 to his Reflex save; rather his Reflex save progression becomes Good (1/2 Fighter level +2).
kadeity 02-09-07, 10:36 AM	so your suggestion is a feat every level? with half being fighter feats and half being ANY feat? honestly...its nice... but still doenst help the fighter. More feats doesnt solve his problem. His problem IS FEATS. how they work, not how many.
Chimaera2000 02-09-07, 01:22 PM	Our group uses the same fix. At the very least, it addresses that problem of dead levels and it easy to implement. It's true that it doesn't solve the majority of a the fighter's problems, but at least there are more reasons to take it beyond level two with this fix.
Gecon 02-09-07, 01:33 PM	Uuuuh... maybe it would be better if some more fighter specific feats would be introduced ? Stuff that needs fighter level X. Even if, honestly, I would give up if anyone asks me to get fighter to the same power level as wizard. Wouldn't have a clue how to do that.
Ghenesh 02-09-07, 02:03 PM	I would give up if anyone asks me to get fighter to the same power level as wizard. Wouldn't have a clue how to do that.Giving the fighter spells instead of bonus feats :rimshot: . I don't like the idea of 20 bonus feats, but i also dislike classes with no interesting features so they scream "Multiclass me". Fighter and Sorcerer being the greatest core offenders. My solution on the fighter is using the 14 bonus feats fighter (that's three feats more than the regular fighter), increasing the skill points per level to 4 + Int modifier and filling the remaining 6 dead levels with little boosts to their defenses (+3 to any save and +3 dodge AC bonus). Something like: The Fighter Game Rule Information: Abilities: Fighters benefit from a high Strength score since it affects the use of his weapons. A high Constitution score is always appreciated in a Fighter, given that as front liners many attacks will be directed to them. Hit Die: d10 Class Skills: The Fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Combat and War)(Int), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str). Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4. Skill Points at each additional Level: 4 + Int modifier. Table 1: The Fighter Fort Ref Will Level BAB Save Save Save Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Fighter Bonus Feat 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Fighter Bonus Feat 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Fighter's Resistance 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Fighter Bonus Feat 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Fighter Bonus Feat 6th +6 +5 +2 +2 Dodge AC Bonus +1 7th +7 +5 +2 +2 Fighter Bonus Feat 8th +8 +6 +2 +2 Fighter Bonus Feat 9th +9 +6 +3 +3 Fighter's Resistance 10th +10 +7 +3 +3 Fighter Bonus Feat 11th +11 +7 +3 +3 Fighter Bonus Feat 12th +12 +8 +4 +4 Dodge AC Bonus +2 13th +13 +8 +4 +4 Fighter Bonus Feat 14th +14 +9 +4 +4 Fighter Bonus Feat 15th +15 +9 +5 +5 Fighter's Resistance 16th +16 +10 +5 +5 Fighter Bonus Feat 17th +17 +10 +5 +5 Fighter Bonus Feat 18th +18 +11 +6 +6 Dodge AC Bonus +3 19th +19 +11 +6 +6 Fighter Bonus Feat 20th +20 +12 +6 +6 Fighter Bonus Feat Fighter's Resistance (ex): Beginning at 3rd level and every 6 levels thereafter (again at 9th and 15th levels) the Fighter gains a +1 bonus on a saving throw of her choice. Dodge AC Bonus (ex): Beginning at 6th level and every 6 levels thereafter (again at 12th and 18th levels) the Fighter gains a +1 dodge bonus to his AC.
aotrscommander 02-11-07, 07:39 AM	So then, the concensus as stands seems to be that the extra feat are not going to make the Fighter teh Uber. (Which is wat I thougt!) Well, the upcoming campaign has a couple of Fighter characters (well a fighter 14 and a Fighter/Ranger 7/7ish), so I'll have chance to put it into practise and find out for sure!
aotrscommander 02-15-07, 08:24 PM	While implementing this fix to my current adventure, I decided to 'scale' as it were the save feats Iron will and Lightning Reflexes (see editied OP) and made a tweak to Warriors while I'm at it. I may scale other feats somewhere ese down the line, but that seemed a good start!