Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jradd777 11-22-07, 01:38 AM	Apologetic http://www.donatoart.com/magic/truce.jpg "Hark! Ye men, regard my words with prudent attention… for I come bearing witness to truth… we are not so different, you and I…," -- Garahk, Orc Apologetic, struggling to be heard over the clan of dwarves he is addressing. Fluff and Flavor (note: some of the class abilities' reasons for being are explained within) Strong belief, whether it be philosophical, religious, or political, throughout history has often provoked warfare and hate. Rather than spread extremism, many have discovered that strong but tolerant defense of belief can reduce bloodshed and promote healthy relations between people of various and diverse backgrounds. The exemplars of this credo are those called the Apologetics. Adventures: New lands bring learning to extend the Apologetic’s own understanding of other cultures and beliefs to improve their ability to defend their ideologies. Also, for Apologetics, adventuring opens a course for missionary work to spread their philosophy of moderation and tolerance and ultimately their message of belief. Sometimes fanatics overstep their bounds, thus, Apologetics are obligated to respond to the prejudice by resorting to grim, sometimes violent, measures. Characteristics: An Apologetic relies most heavily upon his or her skill in persuading their way around or out of a sticky situation. Their “gift of gab” and ability to relate to others often succeeds in making physical fighting unnecessary. In fact, by right of respect for others the Apologetics follow an unofficial code of conduct, which frowns upon punishment first and asking questions later. However when the call for meeting resistance with clenched fists arises, the Apologetic is not without a contingency plan. Apologetics take the idea of compromise very seriously and sometimes illustrate this through use of symbolic equipment. Most apparent in this aspect is the Apologetic affinity for medium armor. Apologetics see medium armor as a compromise between the best possible defense and fluidity and ease of motion. Eventually, the Apologetic learns to move so freely within the confines of medium armor he wears it like a second skin. Apologetics also tend find alternatives to conventional weaponry to most fully practice violence as a last resort. Most Apologetics are well trained in the use of the whip and bolas. If an Apologetic minds caution and stays a few good paces away from a potential threat, these weapons are invaluable to keep him from having to enter into a bloody conflict. The whip supplies a wide berth from shady characters and is ultimately desirable for the Apologetic because it tends to only sting a little and do no real harm. Further, the whip offers a couple of options beyond an offensive strike. The Apologetics are best at grabbing hold of enemies’ limbs to trip them or even snatching the weapons from their hands to give himself a chance to heard. The bolas, normally uncommon in most parts, are attractive to the Apologetics, again, because they tend not to hurt their target and can stop them in their tracks from a safe distance, if the Apologetic sees that they will be attacked. Background: In earlier days, the strength of most ideas was measured by the lives taken in its name, whether followers admit to the fact or not. Bloodstained battlefields gleamed in setting suns, as those still standing flew the flag of their master to “glorify their triumph.” Unfortunately, history is written by the victor; is it truly a “triumph” when a dictator overthrows a benevolent monarch? The physical prowess of a ruler’s army, a god’s followers, or the acolytes of a particular ideology is not a function of the accuracy of their cause. Fists and fury do not decide who is right and who is wrong. The merciless killing of an entire populace should no longer be considered a method for furthering one’s cause. Society and civilization demands that we move away from barbarous confrontation and brutal slaying. Apologetics represent the answer to this problem. Someone must act as the compromise; someone must pull for the “happy medium” before the world erupts into pure chaos. MAKING AN APOLOGETIC Game Rule Information Abilities: Charisma is most important for the Apologetic because they rely on their ability of persuasion to avoid open confrontation and promote acceptance between hostile groups (Charisma is important for many of the Apologetic class skills and abilities). Constitution can provide needed additional hit points. Wisdom is also very important for integral class skills and a few class abilities. Races: Any. Apologetics range across most races as many peoples recognize the importance of cooperation between the races to end the warfare that often rages between entire societies. A majority of Apologetics are human which stems from their ambitious nature and tendency to maximize resources by interacting with all manner of various civilizations. Of course, these relationships lead to complicated networks of alliances and rivalries and the need for Apologetics is much higher. Again, in several races there will appear at least a few who carry the flag of neutrality or understanding of others. Alignment: Any Neutral. Apologetics always display some amount of neutrality as a rule of their way of life. No person who is completely extremist in nature will likely ever be attracted to this way of life. However, there is normally some aspect that drives the Apologetic to spread a cause, belief, or ideal and truly neutral Apologetics can be fairly rare. Starting Gold: 5d4 x 10 (125 gp) Starting Age: As paladin Hit Die: d8. Level Base Attack Fort Ref Will Class Features Prayer Auras 1. +0 +2 +0 +2 Code of Tolerance, Prayer Aura +1, Skill Focus 1st 2. +1 +3 +0 +3 Lay on Hands 1st 3. +2 +3 +1 +3 Shun the Non-Believer 2nd 4. +3 +4 +1 +4 Armor Mastery (Medium) 2nd 5. +3 +4 +1 +4 Prayer Aura +2 3rd 6. +4 +5 +2 +5 Friendly Approach (+2), Detect Alignment 3rd 7. +5 +5 +2 +5 Shout (Disarming) 3rd 8. +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Improved Armor Mastery (Medium) 4th 9. +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Shout (Staggering) 4th 10. +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Prayer Aura +3 5th 11. +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Friendly Approach (+3) 5th 12. +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Detect Alignment (Any) 5th 13. +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Shout (Disorienting) 5th 14. +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Friendly Approach (Above the Din) 5th 15. +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Prayer Aura +4 5th 16. +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Friendly Approach (+4), Dual Aura 5th 17. +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Shout (Sundering) 5th 18. +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Common Ground 5th 19. +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Allay Ignorance 5th 20. +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Prayer Aura +5 5th Class Skills The Apologetic class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (all, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (n/a), Spot (Wis). See Chapter 4 in the Core Rulebook 1 for skill descriptions. Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at each additional Level: 4 + Int modifier Class Features **(Several of the Apologetic's abilities will probably implement the Diplomacy skill. I suggest using these Diplomacy rules (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html) in conjunction with Apologetic. I haven't revamped the skill myself but this rework was the system used to create several of the Apologetic class abilities concerning the Diplomacy skill.)** All of the following are class features of the Apologetic. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An Apologetic is proficient with simple weapons, light and medium armor and with shields (except tower shields). An Apologetic also has proficiency with a the exotic weapons whip and bolas. Apologetics that worship a deity are also proficient with their deity’s favored weapon. Code of Tolerance: The Apologetic cannot help but to live his or her life by a policy devoted to accepting, to an extent, every belief that is different from his or her own. They hope to better the world by showing others that cooperation and understanding are better than extremism and fanaticism. The Code of Tolerance focuses on giving others a chance. If an Apologetic has ample opportunity to talk their way out of a fight and forgoes the chance, giving in to violence, they take a -2 penalty to attack rolls and saves for the rest of the day. The Apologetic pulls punches, hesitates, and can’t keep their mind clear knowing that they have been hypocritical and sullied the name of that for which they stand. An Apologetic will not use their persuasion in a manner to force someone to abandon their normal belief system or cause. An Apologetic means to gently gain acceptance and understanding from others, not coerce them into mindless followers. An Apologetic that attempts to willfully force someone to forsake their previous ideas loses some conviction in their own purpose and thereby takes a -2 penalty to all Charisma-based checks for the rest of the day. Additionally, Apologetics who worship a deity live to serve that deity and will consider that god's word their bread and water. They tend not to make their own choices in most matters or tend to base all choices in action on the dictum and dogma of their god. Apologetics who do not worship a deity are more autonomous following solely their own ambitions for their cause in whatever manner they choose that still complies with the other portions of the Code. Prayer (Su): The Apologetic’s first ability is that of prayer. His softly spoken mutterings in the day’s first light can later invoke magical auras, which benefit the Apologetic and his allies. Good Apologetics tend to learn only prayers beneficial to himself and his party while evil Apologetics tend to learn prayers which concentrate on foiling extremists and fanatics that attempt to resolve conflicts through violence and intimidation. Praying is done at the beginning of the day. An Apologetic recites from memory every prayer he knows and later can invoke a corresponding aura as a swift action. The aura is in effect unless the Apologetic uses a free action to dismiss it or invokes a new aura. The prayers’ auras are continual and therefore can be in effect at the start of an encounter even before the first turn is taken. Unless otherwise noted, the prayer (grant) auras affect all allies within 30 feet (including the Apologetic) with line of effect to the Apologetic. Some (imprecate) auras affect enemies, rather than the Apologetic and his allies. These auras affect opponents within 15 feet with line of effect to the Apologetic. The prayer is dismissed if the Apologetic becomes unconscious or is slain but otherwise remains in effect if the Apologetic is unable to act. At levels 1, 3, 5, 8, and 10 the Apologetic learns a new prayer. At 1st level, he learns a prayer which creates a 1st level aura, choosing one of the three below. At 3rd level, he learns a prayer which creates a 2nd level aura, choosing one of the three below, and so on as represented in the table above, ultimately learning one aura of each level. The Apologetic only ever learns 5 prayers from which he can receive an aura. 1st Grant Mercy: +2 non-lethal damage/Apologetic aura bonus 1st Grant Prudence: Bonus to Listen, Spot and Initiative equal to Apologetic aura bonus 1st Imprecate Ambition: - to initiative equal to Apologetic aura bonus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2nd Grant Grace: + Apologetic aura bonus to select skill checks (Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal) 2nd Imprecate Grace: Penalty equal to Apologetic aura bonus to all opponents' Charisma based save DC's 2nd Imprecate Cooperation: If an enemy attacks an ally of the Apologetic, that round, a number of enemies up to the Apologetic aura bonus take a penalty to attack equal to 2 x the Apologetic aura bonus if they attack the same ally ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 3rd Grant Protection: +1 insight AC per point of Apologetic aura bonus and +DR/-- equal to half the Apologetic aura bonus rounded down 3rd Grant Faith: Spell resistance equal to 15 + 3 x Apologetic aura bonus 3rd Imprecate Hostility: Enemies take damage equal to 2 x Apologetic aura bonus in untyped damage when they target the Apologetic’s allies with an attack from within the radius of the aura effect ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4th Grant Vigor: Fast healing equal to the Apologetic aura bonus, affects only characters at or below 50% of their full normal hit points 4th Grant Vigilance: Apologetic's enemies treat the squares that the Apologetic threatens as difficult terrain (a number of allies equal to the Apologetic aura bonus, who are within 30' of the Apologetic and selected by the Apologetic, can be granted this same ability). Also, the DC for an opponent's Sleight of Hand or Tumble check is increased by 2 x Apologetic aura bonus, within these squares. Additionally, allies receive a bonus to Spot and Listen equal to 2 x Apologetic aura bonus, against opponents using Hide and Move Silently, within the aura radius. 4th Imprecate Conviction: Penalty equal to Apologetic aura bonus to all opponents' saves ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5th Grant Resiliency: 20% Fortification per point of Apologetic aura bonus 5th Grant Serenity: Deflection of ranged weapons equal in number to Apologetic aura bonus (this aura cannot be activated more than once per encounter) (this aura acts exactly as the Deflect Arrows feat in PHB 3.5) 5th Imprecate Zeal: - to level dependent benefits (such as caster level, initiator level, or even a paladin's smite) equal to Apologetic aura bonus MORE TO COME... At 16th level the Apologetic can activate two of these auras simultaneously. When the Apologetic wishes to activate a new aura the previous auras are dismissed in the order that they were activated. Skill Focus: At the beginning of his career, an Apologetic begins perfecting his abilities with a particular aspect of communicating with people. He can focus on getting his point across (Skill Focus [Diplomacy]), collecting info (Skill Focus [Gather Information]), or reading others (Skill Focus [Sense Motive]). Lay on Hands (Su): As paladin. Shun the Non-believer (Ex): If the Apologetic is originally unsuccessful in a persuasion attempt, he or she can make a single retry for the same offer at the same original parameters, except on the retry, the Apologetic has learned how to discredit the least cooperative opponents. The Apologetic gains a circumstance bonus to Diplomacy equal to the difference between the highest level character in the targeted party and the lowest level character in the targeted party plus the wisdom modifier of the opponent with the highest wisdom. For example, Garahk (Apologetic 7) approaches a group of seven Dwarves and proposes a trade of two potions of cure moderate wounds for a potion of haste. The highest level Dwarf of the seven Dwarves is 7 and the Dwarf with the highest wisdom has a modifier of +3. Garahk, being a Mountain Orc and having never met these Dwarves previously, is treated as an Enemy for the purposes of this deal. Additionally, the Dwarves perceive no loss or gain from this transaction, since one of them can cast haste and they have no potions with which to cure themselves... even though, it is a transaction with an Orc. Garahk's Diplomacy DC to succeed in the trade is a total of 30 (15 + 7 + 3 + 5). Garahk fails his first try by 4 and uses Shun the Non-believer to retry. This time, since the lowest level Dwarf in the group is 5, Garahk will add an additional +5 ( +2 for the difference between highest level and lowest level opponents, and +3 for the Dwarf's high Wisdom modifier) to his Diplomacy check under the same original conditions as the first attempt (DC 30). Armor Mastery (Ex): Medium armor itself represents a kind of compromise between highest possible defense and need for maneuverability. At 4th Level the Apologetic’s affinity for medium armor increases, decreasing armor check penalty by 2 points. Friendly Approach (Ex): The Apologetic learns important body language so that he or she may enter a situation in a non-threatening manner to promote greater trust from his or her audience. The Apologetic holds their weapon in a submissive manner, or hands open and outstretched if unarmed, giving him or her a +2 bonus to Charisma-based checks for a number of rounds equal to Apologetic level. If an Apologetic uses Diplomacy against a creature that is not in combat he gets bonus. In order to use Diplomacy, in this manner, the Apologetic needs to make a "non-threatening gesture." This is a Friendly Approach. This bonus increases by 1 every five Apologetic levels to a maximum of +4 at 16th level. If the Apologetic’s pleas for compromise are unsuccessful after the Friendly Approach, opponents are still considered flat-footed for the first round of combat. (For example...in progress) Above the Din (Ex) – At 14th level, in the heat of battle the Apologetic can stop fighting, hold his weapon in a non-threatening manner, or hands open and outstretched if unarmed, and attempt to stop the fighting with his charismatic speaking. Basically, an Apologetic can use the Diplomacy skill as part of a Friendly Approach even after combat has begun. However, Above the Din does not result in opponents being flat-footed for the following round of combat. Detect Alignment (Ex): The Apologetic’s practice in reading people at a glance to better understand or persuade them eventually allows them to detect the alignment of those around him or her. At 6th level and higher, as a standard action, an Apologetic can make a Sense Motive check against the target’s modified level check (1d20 + CR + target’s Wisdom bonus ). If successful the Apologetic knows the target’s alignment aspect that matches his own non-neutral aspect. At 12th level and higher, the Apologetic can detect any alignment with the same Sense Motive versus modified level check. Shouts (Ex): At 7th level the Apologetic has attained a minimal force of personality and control over his voice that begins to grow and grant him new abilities. Once per encounter, the Apologetic can make a shout, as a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity, at his opponent, up to 100' away that he has line of sight and line of effect to, which increases in capabilities as his force of personality grows. Under the Code of Tolerance, the Shouts are considered offensive attacks. The first shout an Apologetic can command is the Disarming Shout. The Apologetic makes a Charisma check against his opponent’s Dexterity check. If the Apologetic is successful, his shout causes the opponent to drop his weapon at his own feet. An Apologetic with the Improved Disarm feat benefits from the effects of the feat for this shout, with the +4 improving his Charisma check. At 9th level, the second shout an Apologetic can make is the Staggering Shout. The Apologetic makes a Charisma check against his opponent’s Dexterity check. If the Apologetic is successful, his shout causes the opponent to stagger and fall prone. An Apologetic with the Improved Trip feat benefits from the effects of the feat for this shout, with the +4 improving his Charisma check and the exception that he does not immediately receive a melee attack as if he had not used his attack for a trip attempt. At 13th level, the next shout an Apologetic can make is the Disorienting Shout. The opponent must make a Will save of DC equal to 10 + ½ Apologetic levels + Charisma modifier. If the Apologetic is successful, the opponent is dazed for 1 round. An Apologetic with the Stunning Fist feat has the option of using this shout by also expending a use of Stunning Fist. As a result, a failed save by the opponent means that he is stunned for the round rather than dazed. Unlike the normal Stunning Fist, the opponent does not have to be damaged by an unarmed strike in order to attempt this shout. At 17th level, the final shout, Sundering Shout, is added to the Apologetic’s repertoire, representing a supreme control over his raw charismatic power and vocal prowess. The Apologetic makes a Charisma check against a target item’s AC (equal to 10 + size modifier + the Dexterity of the carrying or wearing character). If the Apologetic is successful, his shout deals damage to the item equal to the Apologetic’s class levels + 1d8 per point of Charisma bonus. An Apologetic with the Improved Sunder feat benefits from the effects of the feat for this shout, with the +4 improving his Charisma check. Improved Armor Mastery (Ex): At 8th level the Apologetic wears his or her medium armor as a second skin and ignores the speed reduction normally imposed on a wearer. Common Ground (Ex): At 18th level the Apologetic radiates his neutrality and thereby compels others to act similarly—more accepting. Any person within 20 feet with a relationship of (negative) Acquaintance or better toward the Apologetic automatically conforms to the Apologetic Code of Tolerance because his mere proximity and inspiring example influences the way others feel about their own senseless prejudices. Allay Ignorance (Ex): At 19th level an Apologetic can literally stop someone else from breaking the Code of Tolerance. Attained through Apologetics' intimate study of peoples' intolerances and zealotry, he can tell when a person is about to act in a volatile manner and uses this defensive "attack" to attempt to restore order. If an enemy has ample opportunity to hear out the Apologetic and his party and forgoes the chance or uses their persuasion in a manner to force someone to abandon their cause or belief the Apologetic can immobilize (as the condition in ToM 140) and silence them for a number of minutes equal to half his charisma modifier rounded down. This is an immediate action, that can only be used in direct response to an offensive attack, and can be overcome with a Will save of DC 10 + ½ Apologetic level + Charisma modifier (+1 for every +2 modifier to Perform, this does not include ability score modifiers). If the Apologetic deems it necessary and feels that the enemy is more of a physical danger, he can choose to only immobilize the target for a number of minutes equal to his charisma modifier. If the Apologetic assesses the enemy as a threat to others freedom because he will command them to act against their will, he can choose to only silence the target for a number of minutes equal to his charisma modifier. Ex-Apologetics An Apologetic who increases in their belief or cause to the point of fanaticism or horrendously violates the Code of Tolerance (losing his or her neutral aspect of alignment) loses all Apologetic class abilities (except simple weapon proficiencies, medium armor, and shield proficiencies, the Skill Focus from 1st level, Lay on Hands, and the Shouts). He can no longer continue in the path of promoting tolerance until he atones for his prejudicial acts (and regains a neutral alignment). A higher level Apologetic will normally ask a favor of the ex-Apologetic to provide proof of his intention and commitment to uphold tolerance once again before performing the atonement ritual. The most common favor to demonstrate this reassurance is for the Apologetic to have the ex-Apologetic provide healing, through Lay on Hands, to an enemy of the higher level Apologetic. Finally, the Apologetic of higher level willingly expends all of his Lay on Hands on the Apologetic for a week. More Flavor and Fluff: Playing Apologetics As an Apologetic, a great portion of your attention is payed to witnessing. Apologetics have a message to deliver to the world which will make it a better place. However, secondly and holding as much importance, is getting that message across without stepping on the toes of all the those who like their world as it is without that message. Apologetics travel to learn what they can of all that is different from what they previously knew so that they can tailor their practiced dictum to accommodate anyone they might meet in such a way that they may at least accept the idea, religion, or cause as agreeing, in part, with their own. Further, in travels Apologetics attempt to keep up good relations with everyone they meet along the way and therefore, tend to avoid physical confrontation. However, in the event that they are unable to evade the clutches of bloodshed, they are not completely without martial abilities. Religion For most Apologetic's, religion is a large part of their life. The majority of Apologetics seek to spread word of their religious beliefs and worship of their deity, while acting as an exemplar of the traits which his god supports often using those tenements as the basis for his message. It is normally through worship of a deity that the prayers are learned and powers are conferred upon the follower. Apologetics run the full gamut of gods worshiped, especially among humans, sometimes representing gods that seem opposing of their race or are blatantly hostile. Other Classes Obviously, any classes who help to further an Apologetic's cause or religion accept and traverse openly with Apologetics. Often, a bloodthirsty fellow follower will scold the Apologetic for not immediately taking up arms against a known nemesis or an Apologetic may preach to his comrade not to slash first and ask questions later. Additionally, Apologetics abilities can back up all other party members once battle has failed to be avoided with his abilities and auras. Moreover, the well-traveled Apologetic is normally the best member of a group to act as the "voice" of the group in social situations or as a guide even in completely unknown lands. An Apologetic is most often welcome to any group by any class. Combat Again, an Apologetic usually will avoid battle when possible to preserve his friendly image, help spread his word, or simply pass unobtrusively through hostile territory. However, once battle is entered an Apologetic who is accompanied by a group of adventurers is often invaluable. Change auras to the greatest advantage of the group and position yourself in ways which make you readily available to help any party member in need. Basically, whatever advantage you can give to your allies, find it. Often, Apologetics, favoring less bloodshed, will invest in feats which level the playing field against enemies, such as those which supplement their Shout abilities. Apologetics in the World "...Don't you see? Competition is healthy, necessary and beneficial, but to kill each other over this competition -- it is madness! I do not expect Orcs to go to bed with Dwarves. All I ask is that we learn to respect one another...and practice our trade with honor!" --Darien Barris, leader of the Clarions of Change, in his address to the Merchant's Guild of Bravelle The Apologetic is as charismatic as they come. They use every opportunity to speak with others, especially concerning whatever doctrine drives their life. The class provides an alternate approach to some combat situations, which can change the pace of a game for all players and open up the possibility for more opportunities to "socially interact" in the world around the characters. Daily Life The typical Apologetic spends the first few minutes to an hour or so of his or her day reciting prayers from memory. The rest of the day depends on the general path the Apologetic has chosen to take in his mission to witness. Some will focus on learning everything possible about the places they visit and the people who occupy them. Others will practice engaging different folks in talks, arguments, discussions, or as audience to speeches. The rest will tend to "people watch" learning mannerisms, observing how situations play out so that they can be better suited to correctly "size-up" any stranger they may meet. Several Apologetics make sure to wear their armor as much as possible to better acquaint themselves with the feeling of it and its weight, often engaging in a few calisthenics a day to become best accustomed to their traditional garb. Out of respect for their deity or devotion to their cause, many Apologetics will recite their prayers again at sundown, just to sleep with pious thoughts on their minds. Notables Since many societies and races are finding the need for an end to unnecessary bloodshed, Apologetics can be found in nearly any society or community, though few may exist in each. Generally, their natural talents lend those of this class to be prime candidates for politics and jobs as ambassadors. The most famous Apologetic to date would indisputably be Darien Barris, a human statesman, who rose quickly through the ranks of the Clarions of Change to become now the most vocal and renowned diplomat from the city of Bravelle. He believes so strongly in convergence of foreign concepts carried through by the power of free speech that it is said that he always carries a powerful, hidden weapon... though no saber, nor hammer, nor polearm has ever sullied his hands. One legend tells that, "A young elf was tormenting a young half-orc, bullying him incessantly and yet growing evermore irate. A weapon came unsheathed, ringing from the swiftness of the anger which had borne it. Barris, strolling to the Merchant's Guild on an errand, caught a glimpse of the altercation and became impassioned with his righteous duty. He determinedly approached the oblivious pair, reaching them just as the elf's prejudice sprang out from his lungs in a terrible war cry which barely preceded his hate-filled lunge. 'DESIST IN YOUR SENSELESS DISCORDANCE!' Darien yelled with immense presence, causing the elf to loose his footing in terror. Struggling to recover himself the assailant drew a dagger from his boot. 'Weigh your next actions very carefully, wretch,' Darien loomed over him like a spirit of vengeance. The assailant paused as if running the events of the previous few moments over in his head several times, still with a white-knuckled grip on his blade. Slowly he replaced the dagger and stood shakily to his feet. 'I'm sorry, sir, I...' he stammered out a half-heartfelt apology, almost to Darien's surprise. 'Go,' was Darien's only reply." Organizations The rarity of the Apologetic in most societies owes to a similar rarity in any form of wholly Apologetic organization. However, the prominent traits of Apologetics result in many Apologetics heading organizations, often standing for a major belief or purpose. The few Apologetics in any given society sometimes form small monastic bands, sometimes consisting of only 3 or 4 elder Apologetics, for the purpose of training or providing a safe haven in travels or the occasional atonement. NPC Reactions Regular people walking the streets never notice an Apologetic unless they live near one of their "monasteries" or hear one speak. Sometimes, an Apologetic will be mistaken for a bard or paladin in battle, however unorthodox of either he would seem. Normally, the Apologetic's strong feelings for their ideas or beliefs will give them away to opponents who might either confront them or avoid them, often they will be considered at least negative acquaintances in any dealings. Often, anyone else feels comfortable around an Apologetic because of their accepting nature. Anyone who shares the views or the deity of the Apologetic will be initially drawn to them but sometimes there will be disagreements as to how fervently to approach missions. Apologetic Lore Characters with ranks in Knowledge (religion) can research Apologetics to learn more about them. When the character makes a skill check, they can learn the given information or something similar, which includes all that of the DC's below the check. DC 10: The Apologetic is some sort of peacemaker who will not attack a person unless provoked. DC 15: The Apologetic is a religious figure who tends to use their powerful persuasion and other verbal means before resorting to violence. DC 25: The Apologetic often worships a specific deity or witnesses about an ideal or cause. They wear medium armor and promote tolerance most of all, not peace. They use special powers to protect themselves from attackers and project powerful auras. Sample Apologetics Garahk (CR 7) Male Mountain Orc Apologetic 7 NE Medium humanoid Init +2 Senses Darkvision; Listen +1, Spot +6 Languages Orc, Common, Dwarven AC 21, touch 12, flat-footed 19 HP 52 (7 HD) Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +6 Speed 20' (4 squares) Melee "Kindness" +8 (1d12+3+1d6/x3) Ranged Masterwork Bolas +8 (1d4/x2) Base Attack +5; Grapple +7 Combat Gear (5) potions of cure light wounds, potion of cure moderate wounds Abilities Str 15, Dex 14, Con, 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 17 SQ Armor Mastery, Code of Tolerance, Detect Alignment, Disarming Shout, Friendly Approach +2, Lay on Hands, Light Sensitivity, Orc Blood, Shun the Non-believer Prayers Known [I](+2 Aura Bonus) Imprecate Ambition, Imprecate Cooperation, Imprecate Hostility Feats Combat Intuition, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Sense Motive) (C), Weapon Proficiency (Greataxe and Javelins) (R) Skills Bluff +10, Diplomacy +13, Disguise +11, Escape Artist +7, Knowledge (history) +7, Knowledge (religion) +3, Sense Motive +14, Spot +8 Possessions +2 Glamered Chainmail, Bracers of Armor +2, Merciful Greataxe ("Kindness"), (2) Masterwork Bolas, Cloak of Charisma +2 Darien Barris Male Human Bard 8 Apologetic 10 Evangelist 5 NG Medium humanoid Init +2 Senses Listen +1, Spot +1 Languages Aquan, Common, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 HP 149 Fort +12, Ref +12 Will +29 Speed 30' (6 squares) Melee Unarmed Strike +15 (1d3-1/x2) Base Attack +16 Grapple +15 Combat Gear (4) potions neutralize potion Bard Spells Known (CL 8th): 3 (2/day) - Charm Monster, Gaseous Form, Sonic Shield 2 (4/day) - Calm Emotions, Detect thoughts, Delusions of Grandeur, Harmonic Chorus 1 (4/day) - Shock and Awe, Charm Person, Ventriloquism, Joyful Noise 0 (4/day) - Dancing Lights, Thunderclap, Detect Magic, Light Ghost, Sound, Songbird Abilities Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 34 SQ Armor Mastery, Bardic knowledge +10, Bardic music 13/day (Fascinate, Countersong, Inspire courage +4, Inspire competence, Suggestion), Code of Tolerance, Detect Alignment, Disarming Shout, Fast Talk, Friendly Approach +2, Improved Armor Mastery, Lay on Hands, Great Orator (Inspire hope +8, Inflame the righteous [CL 20], Convert the unfaithful), Shun the Non-believer, Skill Mastery (Bluff), Skill Mastery (Diplomacy), Skill Mastery (Sense Motive), Staggering Shout Prayers Known (+3 Aura Bonus) Grant Mercy, Imprecate Grace, Imprecate Hostility, Imprecate Conviction, Grant Serenity Feats Ability Focus (Convert), Ability Focus (Suggestion), Combat Expertise, Disguise Spell, Epic Inspiration, Force of Personality, Improved Disarm, Negotiator, Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (C) Skills Bluff +30, Concentration +18, Diplomacy +43, Forgery +14, Knowledge (religion) +14, Knowledge (nature) +14, Knowledge (history) +14, Knowledge (planes) +14, Knowledge (arcana) +12, Perform (oratory) +38, Sense Motive +29, Speak Language 3, Tumble +18, Use Magic Device +26 Possessions +1 Adamantine Negating Breastplate, Boots of Teleportation, Decanter of Endless Water, Hat of Disguise, Ring of Weaponbreaking, 300k gp ======================================== ======================================== ======= I had help from my good friend bkdubs123, and I borrowed some of the formatting tips from thasis. PEACH, I plan on entering this in the cookie contest, so I want it to be as good as it can be.
bkdubs123 11-26-07, 02:35 PM	Yea! Darien Barris! Yea! I like all the new fluff, it helps to enumerate many of the class features I think.
jradd777 11-30-07, 05:55 AM	Alright, Aerostoth. Got it up and as far as I can tell, completely done. Entering in the next portion of the Cookie Contest. PLEASE ANYONE, PEACH!
Black Mantha 11-30-07, 09:30 AM	This seems interesting. Maybe I'll play one some day (I still have a few builds of myself I want to try first). Here are some thoughts. General: - You are going to specify which abilities are Ex, Su, and Sp, right? It's especially important for Detect Alignment, which may or may not be blocked by Undetectable Alignment or Nondetection. - I'd make Wisdom a bit more important. Someone who seeks to avoid conflict should have high wisdom so that he knows how to best use his diplomacy, and to know when to run. - I like you took the effort to make all this background stuff. - Now this will be something different to roleplay. :) I do wonder if it doesn't get a bit repetitive after a while. Prayer: [...] 1st Imprecate Ambition: I think you let out a word. Is this a penalty to opponent's initiative? Is so, it's complete crap. It only works if combat starts at 15 ft or less, and 1st Grant Prudence effectively does the same, and more. 2nd Imprecate Grace: I dunno, seems a bit weak. After all, Diplomacy and Intimidate don't work on PC's anyway. Maybe also give the penalty to Charisma-based save DC's? (this isn't a sorcerer killer, because of the range) 2nd Imprecate Cooperation: This is a really big problem for horde attacks, especially because it has no save. A bit too much. Maybe make it a -4 penalty for everyone who attacked that person before in the same round? Also, make sure you specify who's round you mean (I think you mean the attacked ally.) 4th Grant Vigor: That's still an unlimited number of hitpoints per day. I'm not sure what that'll mean, but WotC never does that. Armor Mastery: Medium armor itself represents a kind of compromise between highest possible defense and need for maneuverability. At 4th Level the Apologetic’s affinity for medium armor increases, decreasing armor check penalty by 2 points. This doesn't really seem to fit the theme. Is there a real reason to give an Apologetic this? This bonus increases by 1 every five Apologetic levels to a maximum of +4 at 16th level. If the Apologetic’s pleas for compromise are unsuccessful after the Friendly Approach, opponents are still considered flat-footed for the first round of combat. This confused me for a bit. Is this an ability that makes your opponents flat-footed? I think you should explain better how this works at the beginning of an encounter, maybe with an example or two. Detect Alignment: The Apologetic’s practice in reading people at a glance to better understand or persuade them eventually allows them to detect the alignment of those around him or her. At 6th level and higher, as a standard action, an Apologetic can make a Sense Motive check against the target’s modified level check (1d20 + CR + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any]). If successful the Apologetic knows the target’s alignment aspects that match his own. CR + Wisdom bonus? Being a tougher fighter or high Wisdom don't mean you're harder to read. The only place CR is used in checks is when assessing someone's threat. Worse, someone with high Bluff should be better at hiding his alignment. How about doing it like feinting in combat? Opposed by a Bluff check plus HD. Also, opposed checks are for when you're interacting, and bluff checks are only for when they're hiding their alignment. How about when you observe someone that is not hiding his alignment, it's against a DC of their HD + 10? With a bit of wisdom and a maxed out Sense Motive, that should be easy, and with Skill Focus, automatic. Finally, a rules clarification: can this detect a neutral aspect? If not, it has only limited use for a class which must be neutral in some way, and is often TN. Shouts: At 7th level the Apologetic has attained a minimal force of personality and control over his voice that begins to grow and grant him new abilities. So you say, but these are written as if the Shout is like telekinesis, not a skill based on persuasion. - Most are opposed by Dexterity. - Improved Disarm or Improved Trip are physical skills. It doesn't make sense to let it apply here. Maybe you should change the flavour of the Shouts to explain why they have mostly physical effects. Mechanically these look like fun but my problem with them is that the rules don't reflect what the flavour says. [..] up to 100' away that he has line of sight and line of effect to, If it's a extraordinary ability, line of effect shouldn't matter, just if he can see and hear you. It it's supernatural, this is good. At 13th level, the next shout an Apologetic can make is the Disorienting Shout. The opponent must make a Will save of DC equal to 10 + ½ Apologetic levels + Charisma modifier. If the Apologetic is successful, the opponent is dazed for 1 round. An Apologetic with the Stunning Fist feat has the option of using this shout by also expending a use of Stunning Fist. As a result, a failed save by the opponent means that he is stunned for the round rather than dazed. Unlike the normal Stunning Fist, the opponent does not have to be damaged by an unarmed strike in order to attempt this shout. I like the use of a daze attack, you don't see that very often. The explanation for how Stunning Fist can be used is worded a bit awkward. I'd change it into: "An Apologetic with the Stunning Fist feat can expend one use of this feat to empower his Disorienting Shout. If he does, a failed save by means the opponent he is stunned for the round rather than dazed." At 17th level, the final shout, Sundering Shout, is added to the Apologetic’s repertoire, representing a supreme control over his raw charismatic power and vocal prowess. The Apologetic makes a Charisma check against a target item’s AC (equal to 10 + size modifier + the Dexterity of the carrying or wearing character). If the Apologetic is successful, his shout deals damage to the item equal to the Apologetic’s class levels + 1d8 per point of Charisma bonus. An Apologetic with the Improved Sunder feat benefits from the effects of the feat for this shout, with the +4 improving his Charisma check. That's a LOT of damage, and equipment doesn't have more HD as you advance levels. However, it is for 17th level, and Sundering equipment destroys loot... and Shatter, a level 2 spell automatically destroys something. It's fine. However, restrict it's use. Right now you get the situation: - Fighter: Hey, can you yell down this adamantine door for us? - Apologist: No, we're not in combat. Let's lure the next monster we find here, then I can do it. Same problem many had with elder mountain hammer. Maybe limit it to carried items? Common Ground: At 18th level the Apologetic radiates his neutrality and thereby compels others to act similarly—more accepting. Any person within 20 feet with a relationship of (negative) Acquintance or better toward the Apologetic automatically conforms to the Apologetic Code of Tolerance because his mere proximity and inspiring example influences the way others feel about their own senseless prejudices. No :censored: way. A paladin who thinks he can impose his own code on the entire party is bad enough. Someone that actually can, WITH NO SAVE, is unacceptable. The behavior of PC's should not be dictated by anyone else. And before you mention charm effects, if I find out a party member used charm person on me, they'd get a bestow curse in return. Besides, personality conflicts in a party are great opportunities for roleplaying. Allay Ignorance: At 19th level an Apologetic can literally stop someone else from breaking the Code of Tolerance. This is a defensive "attack" attained through Apologetics' intimate study of peoples' intolerances and zealotry. If an enemy has ample opportunity to hear out the Apologetic and his party and forgoes the chance or uses their persuasion deceitfully or in a manner to force someone to act as they normally would not the Apologetic can immobilize (as the condition in ToM 140) and silence them for a number of minutes equal to half his charisma modifier rounded down. This is an immediate action, that can only be used in direct response to an offensive attack, and can be overcome with a Will save of DC 10 + ½ Apologetic level + Charisma modifier (+1 for every +2 modifier to Perform, this does not include ability score modifiers). First: ToM? What's that? Second: Isn't it easier to say +1 for every 2 ranks in Perform? Keeps you from the hassle of working in circumstance bonuses and such. Third: A class ability using a skill that is not a class skill? Maybe it's a balance issue, but why not use a class skill and halving the bonus? With multi-classing, this can be circumvented. Forth: With a maximized Perform check (a second class so it's a class skill, + Able Learner), you get at level 20 a DC of 40 + Cha. Way too hard for an ability that removes you from combat. Fifth: And that is if the ranks in multiple Perform skills don't stack! If you have 3 Perform skills maxed, it becomes a DC 62 + Cha. Sixth: ...wait. Perform? How does that make sense? "I can make fantastic shadow figures, so sit down and shut up!"
vorpo 11-30-07, 01:32 PM	Is this the one u asked me to update in the market before?
jradd777 11-30-07, 01:35 PM	First of all, thanks so much for the feedback, I've spent a ton of time on this class. Thanks for pointing out these issues because many I meant to go back and fix and would forget as other pressing matters would arise (speciallfically the Perform thing on Allay Ignorance, for one, it used to depend on Perform (oratory) because the class used to have it for it's abilities, now it's moot but I didn't mean ranks at all, I actually meant other additional modifiers to Perform). Anyway, I'm going to tackle the quickest easiest ones first because, quite honestly, school is hectic, I know you understand. I'll respond later with the more intricate answers to your concerns. This seems interesting. Maybe I'll play one some day (I still have a few builds of myself I want to try first). Here are some thoughts. Thanks, I consider that a high compliment. General: - You are going to specify which abilities are Ex, Su, and Sp, right? It's especially important for Detect Alignment, which may or may not be blocked by Undetectable Alignment or Nondetection. Meant to, forgot, probably will do ASAP. - I'd make Wisdom a bit more important. Someone who seeks to avoid conflict should have high wisdom so that he knows how to best use his diplomacy, and to know when to run. Makes sense, wisdom is ridiculously important to this class already, I suppose I should state that in the Abilities section, though. - I like you took the effort to make all this background stuff. - Now this will be something different to roleplay. :) I do wonder if it doesn't get a bit repetitive after a while. I'm sure as any other class, it can. (I'll brag on him a bit here:)However, that's why I feel this class promotes the most opportunity for role-play that a person can ask for. You can develop speeches to give that can be different every time. You have several options, for both inside and outside of combat. The abilities make reasons and encourage PC's to interact in the world around them, in quests and socially. Normally, I don't like to toot my own horn but... beep, beep, this class can be a new experience every time you come to the table. 1st Imprecate Ambition: I think you let out a word. Is this a penalty to opponent's initiative? Is so, it's complete crap. It only works if combat starts at 15 ft or less, and 1st Grant Prudence effectively does the same, and more. This is a good point for many reasons. I have two defenses... first, imprecates are kind of intended as options for people to flavor their character. If you've got a great evil Apologetic figured out, sure, it's likely optimal to take the Grant Prudence... but flavorfully, it makes more sense to want to cause detriment to someone else (maybe I'll fix it so that it's just as compelling to take as Prudence). Second, I envision some Apologetics attempting to walk up to a group of possibly hostile NPC's to engage them in talk, try to gather information etc, and the NPC's decide to attack, he will probably make it to within 15' feet of them but might leave his friends behind (beyond 30') where they can ambush them if they get rowdy. In that situation, if he had taken Prudence, nothing good really happens, Ambition on the other hand becomes highly strategic choice. It's about knowing how to use what you choose. 2nd Imprecate Grace: I dunno, seems a bit weak. After all, Diplomacy and Intimidate don't work on PC's anyway. Maybe also give the penalty to Charisma-based save DC's? (this isn't a sorcerer killer, because of the range) Well, the lower level auras are supposed to be fairly weak but you make a good point. I may change this to your suggestion, I'll think on it for a bit. 2nd Imprecate Cooperation: This is a really big problem for horde attacks, especially because it has no save. A bit too much. Maybe make it a -4 penalty for everyone who attacked that person before in the same round? Also, make sure you specify who's round you mean (I think you mean the attacked ally.) Um... hmm... I might end up changing it... I'm going to get a second opinion from my co-creator, because Imprecate Cooperation was his baby... I really didn't think of the intricacies in detail...you'll probably hear back about it soon... 4th Grant Vigor: That's still an unlimited number of hitpoints per day. I'm not sure what that'll mean, but WotC never does that. Wait...what? Dragon Shaman has basically the exact same aura... if not EXACTLY the same, right? I think I even used the same name... and it only works while the specific aura is activated and allies have to be less than half HP + they can't even get it until the point where it's not uncommon to be hit for 30-40 a round, right? Medium Armor Mastery: This doesn't really seem to fit the theme. Is there a real reason to give an Apologetic this? Yes and no. I can see your point, I think I justified it decently in the flavor section preceding the class table, though (under characteristics). It really makes sense to me, but I love the symbolism of using tools that represent a person's ultimate ideals. I really do think that a person devoted to finding a happy medium, compromise, etc, would see the symbolism of that in Medium armor, it's supposed to be lighter than heavy, but stronger than light, and it kind of isn't really like that in the D&D world, but it really should be moreso... This confused me for a bit. Is this an ability that makes your opponents flat-footed? I think you should explain better how this works at the beginning of an encounter, maybe with an example or two. Alright, I knew there was another ability that probably needed an example. I'll probably add one, but to answer your question: No, not really. Basically, you walk up to a group of guys that may or may not be opponents. You do it in the "we mean you no harm" kinda way and it makes them more receptive to listen to you (I probably need to change it now, since it only says Diplomacy, but it preps for Gather Info, Diplomacy, maybe even Bluff as your party sneaks around the "back way" etc.) If you fail in your charisma skill check and they decide to attack, that first round of combat, is still considered like a "surprise round," basically, I think because they might still be confused that the guy tried to talk to them in the first place. That's also the reason I specifically stated in the late progression to Above the Din, that it did not make opponents FF. It can only do that in a first round of combat as a result of a failed Cha-skill check. CR + Wisdom bonus? Being a tougher fighter or high Wisdom don't mean you're harder to read. The only place CR is used in checks is when assessing someone's threat. Alright, this is mostly structured this way to parallel an Intimidate check, in many ways. It started out as Detect Disposition when I still used the original Diplomacy rules... I didn't want to alter it too much because I like the simplicity and the meaning behind what it does this way. It's not about how tough you are and in the new Diplomacy rules wisdom is important to how well other people read you (if they can't tell that you're assessing them, why would they even get a check, is one way of looking at it). The CR implies a person's amount of experience over you. If I haven't seen much/done much and you have, you're more likely to act in ways that may or may not match my idea of that alignment and be better at hiding your alignment than I am at discerning it. However... Worse, someone with high Bluff should be better at hiding his alignment. How about doing it like feinting in combat? Opposed by a Bluff check plus HD. Also, opposed checks are for when you're interacting, and bluff checks are only for when they're hiding their alignment. How about when you observe someone that is not hiding his alignment, it's against a DC of their HD + 10? With a bit of wisdom and a maxed out Sense Motive, that should be easy, and with Skill Focus, automatic. Some of this is explained previously, some of it is great points on your part, I'll mull them over for a bit. Finally, a rules clarification: can this detect a neutral aspect? If not, it has only limited use for a class which must be neutral in some way, and is often TN. If you mean that Apologetic is often TN... they're not, probably rarely, in truth (in fact, I even might believe that they are NEVER TN, because normally, first and foremost, they are a missionary for SOMEthing which might not ever be able to be TN; I thought of a possible argument that not even being a apostle for neutrality would truly be neutral, because they might have evil, good, lawful, or chaotic intention behind their cause if they go to the lengths to pursue it as a life goal to spread the idea, anyway...). They often have only one axis neutral, while the other will either align with their deity or whatever cause they pursue (freedom= probably chaotic, truth=lawful or good depending on your flavor, etc). So it's meant for whatever that aspect is at the lower level, once higher, he can detect anything. So you say, but these are written as if the Shout is like telekinesis, not a skill based on persuasion. - Most are opposed by Dexterity. - Improved Disarm or Improved Trip are physical skills. It doesn't make sense to let it apply here. Maybe you should change the flavour of the Shouts to explain why they have mostly physical effects. Mechanically these look like fun but my problem with them is that the rules don't reflect what the flavour says. So you say... but maybe I just didn't make it clear enough. You drop your weapon because he knows how to startle anyone, with his voice and presence. You trip and lose your footing because his war cry cuts to your core. Your very bowels are affected when he empties his lungs with a jarring noise and you just stand there, unsure of what to do next. Finally, with a control likened to a practiced opera singer, the volume and immensity of his words can burst an enemy's weapon, rendering it useless. He's been speaking for years a this point, often to large crowds, gaining a tangible charismatic presence that radiates off him like an arid summer heat. This is an ability that is basically him moving that force of charisma about him with a practiced command... basically. It's that he affects a person's emotions, determination, efficacy, vigilance, etc all at once because he's that "persuasive"... more like influential... and eventually reaches the point that he can compromise those things in small objects also. I hope that clears it up... I'm not really sure how else to put it... but it is based on the vocal component of his voice (so silence kills it, etc) and it's incredible prowess of command. If it's a extraordinary ability, line of effect shouldn't matter, just if he can see and hear you. It it's supernatural, this is good. I'll be perfectly honest, I didn't label them in part because... I've never actually seen a write up/explanation on the differences and importances of the types of abilities. I'll do some homework and label them all, pronto. But from what you're saying... it may be supernatural... I left the line of sight because of the importance of the voice component, his voice, kinda literally, has to be able to touch his opponents, since it is what does the thing. That's how I meant it to be anyway (another reason it's not at all telekinetic or something). I like the use of a daze attack, you don't see that very often. The explanation for how Stunning Fist can be used is worded a bit awkward. I'd change it into: "An Apologetic with the Stunning Fist feat can expend one use of this feat to empower his Disorienting Shout. If he does, a failed save by means the opponent he is stunned for the round rather than dazed." Good, the dazing, etc, stuff like that (everything, really, that I tried to give them, is kinda meant to help them shy away from open physical confrontation [and the swing, swing, next turn, swing, swing, repetition...], while still being versatile and giving plenty of options). I'll look at the wording... That's a LOT of damage, and equipment doesn't have more HD as you advance levels. However, it is for 17th level, and Sundering equipment destroys loot... and Shatter, a level 2 spell automatically destroys something. It's fine. However, restrict it's use. Right now you get the situation: - Fighter: Hey, can you yell down this adamantine door for us? - Apologist: No, we're not in combat. Let's lure the next monster we find here, then I can do it. Same problem many had with elder mountain hammer. Maybe limit it to carried items? Again, several GREAT points... I know because I've thought about them already and I suppose I just didn't make them all crystal clear. First, the damage, isn't as amazing as it sounds, I did the math for at least a good hour or two and it actually almost HAS to be this much to even be decently effective at this level. By this point, higher levels don't change HD, but adamantine, cold iron, etc, just adding the magical quality, a TON of things increase the HP of items to the point that... it's definitely not even close to being a broken ability. Secondly, it IS basically limited to carried items since you kind have to target a person looking at RAW in the PHB 3.5. The Sunder combat action is only made against certain things (carried, worn, weapons etc)... there are no rules for unattended objects, etc, etc. I think otherwise, it HAS to be shatter or simply an attack against the object... which isn't a sunder attempt, technically. So.. yeah, I fought my co-creator that the damage was ridiculous and lost to math, and he fought that I needed to specify what objects could be targeted and he lost to RAW. We already checked those points out... besides... you want to break down the adamantine door with a Shout rather than have whoever the melee-type is bust it open (cuz they'd probably crush way harder!)? No :censored: way. A paladin who thinks he can impose his own code on the entire party is bad enough. Someone that actually can, WITH NO SAVE, is unacceptable. The behavior of PC's should not be dictated by anyone else. And before you mention charm effects, if I find out a party member used charm person on me, they'd get a bestow curse in return. Besides, personality conflicts in a party are great opportunities for roleplaying. My BAD... MAJOR mistake on my part... this ability ONLY applies to NPC's, the regular Joe Schmoe, carrying his apples to the market within 20' of the Apologetic, PC's are COMPLETELY immune to this effect! Sorry... horrible, horrible, thanks for catching that, because I NEVER would have noticed that anyone could take it that way. Eww, that would be HORRIBLE! First: ToM? What's that? Tome of Magic. Second: Isn't it easier to say +1 for every 2 ranks in Perform? Keeps you from the hassle of working in circumstance bonuses and such. Third: A class ability using a skill that is not a class skill? Maybe it's a balance issue, but why not use a class skill and halving the bonus? With multi-classing, this can be circumvented. Forth: With a maximized Perform check (a second class so it's a class skill, + Able Learner), you get at level 20 a DC of 40 + Cha. Way too hard for an ability that removes you from combat. Fifth: And that is if the ranks in multiple Perform skills don't stack! If you have 3 Perform skills maxed, it becomes a DC 62 + Cha. Sixth: ...wait. Perform? How does that make sense? "I can make fantastic shadow figures, so sit down and shut up!" Moot point, Apologetics no longer need/use perform at all and that's not at all what I meant. Just to answer the fifth point directly, again, they used to have Perform (oratory), so it was how well they "commanded" someone to stop. Explained previously... Anyway... let me know if I skipped one... I'll get back to it at some point, thanks again, so much for all your attention and time. Let me know what you think after the changes as well, if you want.
jradd777 11-30-07, 01:35 PM	Is this the one u asked me to update in the market before? Yes, please. Thanks in advance!
bkdubs123 11-30-07, 04:54 PM	This seems interesting. Maybe I'll play one some day (I still have a few builds of myself I want to try first). Here are some thoughts. General: - You are going to specify which abilities are Ex, Su, and Sp, right? It's especially important for Detect Alignment, which may or may not be blocked by Undetectable Alignment or Nondetection. - I'd make Wisdom a bit more important. Someone who seeks to avoid conflict should have high wisdom so that he knows how to best use his diplomacy, and to know when to run. - I like you took the effort to make all this background stuff. - Now this will be something different to roleplay. :) I do wonder if it doesn't get a bit repetitive after a while. 1st Imprecate Ambition: I think you let out a word. Is this a penalty to opponent's initiative? Is so, it's complete crap. It only works if combat starts at 15 ft or less, and 1st Grant Prudence effectively does the same, and more. 2nd Imprecate Grace: I dunno, seems a bit weak. After all, Diplomacy and Intimidate don't work on PC's anyway. Maybe also give the penalty to Charisma-based save DC's? (this isn't a sorcerer killer, because of the range) 2nd Imprecate Cooperation: This is a really big problem for horde attacks, especially because it has no save. A bit too much. Maybe make it a -4 penalty for everyone who attacked that person before in the same round? Also, make sure you specify who's round you mean (I think you mean the attacked ally.) 4th Grant Vigor: That's still an unlimited number of hitpoints per day. I'm not sure what that'll mean, but WotC never does that. This doesn't really seem to fit the theme. Is there a real reason to give an Apologetic this? This confused me for a bit. Is this an ability that makes your opponents flat-footed? I think you should explain better how this works at the beginning of an encounter, maybe with an example or two. CR + Wisdom bonus? Being a tougher fighter or high Wisdom don't mean you're harder to read. The only place CR is used in checks is when assessing someone's threat. Worse, someone with high Bluff should be better at hiding his alignment. How about doing it like feinting in combat? Opposed by a Bluff check plus HD. Also, opposed checks are for when you're interacting, and bluff checks are only for when they're hiding their alignment. How about when you observe someone that is not hiding his alignment, it's against a DC of their HD + 10? With a bit of wisdom and a maxed out Sense Motive, that should be easy, and with Skill Focus, automatic. Finally, a rules clarification: can this detect a neutral aspect? If not, it has only limited use for a class which must be neutral in some way, and is often TN. So you say, but these are written as if the Shout is like telekinesis, not a skill based on persuasion. - Most are opposed by Dexterity. - Improved Disarm or Improved Trip are physical skills. It doesn't make sense to let it apply here. Maybe you should change the flavour of the Shouts to explain why they have mostly physical effects. Mechanically these look like fun but my problem with them is that the rules don't reflect what the flavour says. If it's a extraordinary ability, line of effect shouldn't matter, just if he can see and hear you. It it's supernatural, this is good. I like the use of a daze attack, you don't see that very often. The explanation for how Stunning Fist can be used is worded a bit awkward. I'd change it into: "An Apologetic with the Stunning Fist feat can expend one use of this feat to empower his Disorienting Shout. If he does, a failed save by means the opponent he is stunned for the round rather than dazed." That's a LOT of damage, and equipment doesn't have more HD as you advance levels. However, it is for 17th level, and Sundering equipment destroys loot... and Shatter, a level 2 spell automatically destroys something. It's fine. However, restrict it's use. Right now you get the situation: - Fighter: Hey, can you yell down this adamantine door for us? - Apologist: No, we're not in combat. Let's lure the next monster we find here, then I can do it. Same problem many had with elder mountain hammer. Maybe limit it to carried items? No :censored: way. A paladin who thinks he can impose his own code on the entire party is bad enough. Someone that actually can, WITH NO SAVE, is unacceptable. The behavior of PC's should not be dictated by anyone else. And before you mention charm effects, if I find out a party member used charm person on me, they'd get a bestow curse in return. Besides, personality conflicts in a party are great opportunities for roleplaying. First: ToM? What's that? Second: Isn't it easier to say +1 for every 2 ranks in Perform? Keeps you from the hassle of working in circumstance bonuses and such. Third: A class ability using a skill that is not a class skill? Maybe it's a balance issue, but why not use a class skill and halving the bonus? With multi-classing, this can be circumvented. Forth: With a maximized Perform check (a second class so it's a class skill, + Able Learner), you get at level 20 a DC of 40 + Cha. Way too hard for an ability that removes you from combat. Fifth: And that is if the ranks in multiple Perform skills don't stack! If you have 3 Perform skills maxed, it becomes a DC 62 + Cha. Sixth: ...wait. Perform? How does that make sense? "I can make fantastic shadow figures, so sit down and shut up!" Great feedback all, sir, and I couldn't have addressed it any better than my colleague Jradd has already done. Glad to see someone taking an interest in this class, and I am really happy to see all of the improvements and insights still being poured into this class. I'm sure Jradd will be tweaking a few things so that they make more sense. One final thing, thanks for the reminder that abilities need labels! I NEVER do that for my classes (and I have like 10 of em)! I need to get on the ball!
jradd777 12-02-07, 03:19 AM	Ok, I've added labels to the abilities and made some changes to abilities based on suggestions, anyone else got some good ideas? PS - Thanks Black Mantha and bkdubs!
Flamewarrior 03-11-08, 09:56 PM	First, I suggest spell-checking - not so many errors, but enough to grab attention. Alignment: ever since I heard LG/LE/CG/CE were "extreme" alignments, I had an opinion that was later supported even by some published book (can't recall which): that LN/NG/NE/CN are juts as much worthy being called extreme. Why? Because they are the ones that shift all emphasis towards just one alignment component, over everything else. For example, NG are probably the less likely of all to budge on a negotiation involving welfare vs. personal merit (always welfare), and LN (depending on how you view it, since Law/Chaos' fairly unclear) on one involving safety vs. freedom (always safety). Also, before you take out TN, the concept of an Obad-Hai worshipper teaching everyone harmony with nature (including how to maintain culture meanwhile) sounds perfectly natural (pardon the pun). Such a concept also seems to me like someone that should be able to physically restrain people; therefore, I see it with a larger HD, full BAB and built-in bonuses to special attacks (enough that they have an easy time against most humanoids, go toe-to-toe with humanoid warriors, and suck against nonhumanoids - which's the easy part, since they're ridiculously good at those). Also, a class so focused on "spreading a word" seems like it'd have access to all Knowledges. And I always thought intimidation fully fit, and Darrin gives a pretty obvious example of it, actually. So, where's it? Though if I was you, I'd have put something about him feeling bad for having had to do that. I'm not all that convinced by the medium armor symbolism (if anything, their weapons would be the symbols); anyway, you really should have light armor proficiency - even if the abilities focused on medium armor stay (which I don't really have anything against), there's still the matter that for everything else, medium armor comes with light, and also not gimping the guys because they lost equipment. And don't make religious apologetics mechanically superior; why not give a weapon proficiency to any, and saying in some of the flavor paragraphs that they normally know how to use their deities' weapons? If the class has 20 levels, the idea of it stopping learning auras at 10's obscene. And don't dare say "dragon shaman" because that ties with divine mind and marshal (not this one, though) for crappiest class ever, crappier than even most third-party classes I know). Also, re-check the auras; they have some large internal imbalances - for one, I agree with most of what Mantha said. May point out more later. I'd suggest extra Skill Focus feats along. And don't really know why it has lay on hands: first, healing, when not an outright magical ability, normally comes from classes that bolster fighting spirits, which's not really the case. But I could see a soothing voice that healed people within hearing range and healed effects other than hit point damage too. Shun the nonbeliever: I have an idea that might depict your concept a little bit better while also keeping the bonus from skyrocketing, but first I need to make sure I indeed understood it - it's that you pick the weakest arguments made and the people of lesser eloquency, and subject them to the most critical mind present to see the most flaws, right? Detect alignment: if you kick the alignment restriction as I think you should, make the abilities at 6th and 12th be just one, and shift something else to fill the 12th. I have a justification for the shouts being resisted by Dex and applying feats: Dex's the opponents control of the weapon (Though in D&D it would make sense to also include Str somehow - since some opponents would be all but immune if they resisted with Str, what about the lowest of the 2?), and the feats include a timing mastery that you can capitalize on just fine with a shout (even better, the shout has much less physical cues for the opponent). As for Stunning Fist, make that clause apply for any stunning ability with daily uses. And make the sundering ignore DR and hardness. I also suggest having these abilities being usable in a (much smaller) entire radius. Common ground: a character is a character is a character. The setting doesn't put PC tags around - whatever you do, do something that you're comfortable applying equally to everyone. I suggest making the LoH expenditure for atonement last just for one day. All in all, a really cool class. But don't get mistaken on one thing: it's not any more roleplayable than any class with a decent array of options. That is, some few classes need not apply, but the apologetic isn't any "superior in roleplay" than a cleric, incarnate, psion, rogue, warblade, wizard, or lots of others.
jradd777 03-11-08, 10:21 PM	You're going to have to give me time to respond. Overall, I'll say that I think together, the things you are talking about sound that they'll likely make the class overpowered, especially if I did all of them... but that's just first glance, again, I'll need a lot of time to consider everything. I literally haven't gotten a chance to look at this class in months. I've been waiting on the full reviews from the cookie contest to redirect my work, also. So, I'd like to take another whack at this one with the most input possible, all at once. The drawback is that I haven't heard anything in so long on this guy, that I really don't remember every little justification for every ability and the flavoring that I was attempting. Also, this is my very first class, very first anything. So bear with me a bit, I'll respond ASAP... Thanks a ton for the post! I only found 4 typos...
mtg_shep 03-13-08, 10:35 PM	How would you get Medium Armor Proficiency without Light? :confused: Thats weird! Even the Feat to wear Medium REQUIRES light armor proficiency first...
jradd777 03-13-08, 10:39 PM	How would you get Medium Armor Proficiency without Light? :confused: Thats weird! Even the Feat to wear Medium REQUIRES light armor proficiency first... You're totally right... I'm changing it. I'm adding you to my buddy list RIGHT NOW!
jradd777 03-19-08, 07:20 PM	Alright, I'm going to try to quickly respond, although, I am still waiting on my review from the Cookie Contest... First, I suggest spell-checking - not so many errors, but enough to grab attention. If there are any left at this point then the spell checker is broken and I need to go back to grade school. I only found four typos, however, in over 5,500 words... so I'm impressed that they grabbed any attention. Alignment: ever since I heard LG/LE/CG/CE were "extreme" alignments, I had an opinion that was later supported even by some published book (can't recall which): that LN/NG/NE/CN are juts as much worthy being called extreme. Why? Because they are the ones that shift all emphasis towards just one alignment component, over everything else. For example, NG are probably the less likely of all to budge on a negotiation involving welfare vs. personal merit (always welfare), and LN (depending on how you view it, since Law/Chaos' fairly unclear) on one involving safety vs. freedom (always safety). Also, before you take out TN, the concept of an Obad-Hai worshipper teaching everyone harmony with nature (including how to maintain culture meanwhile) sounds perfectly natural (pardon the pun). In a way you are right... in a way, I disagree with the overall claim. They actually don't shift emphasis to a single component, necessarily (although, they could... I suppose). The matter of the fact is that on whatever component they are neutral, they will not have a stance to uphold and therefore are less extreme than those who must uphold two stances simultaneously in their actions. A LG hero will fight the hardest against an action that breaks the law and doesn't uphold good. A NG hero will not worry about whether or not something breaks the law as long as it is good. Any character with a neutral component is least likely to have an argument on any random given issue than any character without any neutral component because they have more stricture guiding their actions. A partially neutral character inherently allows for flexibility in more conditions than characters who are not. Such a concept also seems to me like someone that should be able to physically restrain people; therefore, I see it with a larger HD, full BAB and built-in bonuses to special attacks (enough that they have an easy time against most humanoids, go toe-to-toe with humanoid warriors, and suck against nonhumanoids - which's the easy part, since they're ridiculously good at those). Well, that's certainly a possible direction. I can't simply add those things, however; I'd have to take other things away. Perhaps, I could do a variant that would be more martial and use bonuses to grapple, etc, while losing... I don't know... something. The reason they didn't have too many of those before was the fact of their medium BAB, which would make abilities like that poor after a few levels. I'll have to think about this. It just changes the focus that I originally wanted for this class. I mean... I did hand them proficiencies with weapons that would allow them plenty of chances to restrain people... and I gave them the shouts, which can help work to restrain people... so... yeah. Also, a class so focused on "spreading a word" seems like it'd have access to all Knowledges. I don't see why... but maybe you could convince me (also, I don't want to make them highly skill intensive or anything so, I didn't want to push too many skills on them). See, why does would he have all Knowledges just because he "spreads the word?" Wouldn't he only ever need knowledge in whatever it is he's attempting to spread? Plus, I figured history was good enough to supplement anything else he may need to know about. I did consider throwing in Knowledge (local), however... Maybe, I could see, two or three knowledges max, taken separately... because as a "prophet" or "messenger" or whatever type, you don't want to spread yourself too thin knowledge-wise. I would think... but again, maybe you could convince me otherwise... I almost decided to give them an ability similar to Bardic knowledge which was going to give the Apologetic the ability to roll a special knowledge check in order to learn how to better handle people of backgrounds which he was generally unfamiliar... but others didn't think that it was a good idea... so I scrapped it... And I always thought intimidation fully fit, and Darrin gives a pretty obvious example of it, actually. So, where's it? Though if I was you, I'd have put something about him feeling bad for having had to do that. Nope. I almost couldn't remember why I left it out and nearly started saying I might put it in but I just realized it. Intimidate basically ALWAYS breaks the Code of Tolerance. It's literally a modified level check, which is someone using the fact that they are higher level and/or skilled (aka, more powerful) to cause a person to act in a certain way. Plus, the flavor of Intimidate breaks the idea of the Code of Tolerance. To use the skill Intimidate is a conscious effort to force someone to act in a way they wouldn't ordinarily. Bluff was almost left out because of this, but there are several circumstances in which it can be used that don't necessarily break the Code, so it squeaked back in. Darien's example is slightly different, it's supposed to be the use of one of the Apologetic abilities (Staggering Shout) but... I didn't write the part for Darien Barris, the guy that created the character did (bkdubs123), I just transcribed it. Maybe I'll get him to rewrite so it doesn't confuse anybody (we didn't figure people would take it literally since it's in the "Notables" section of the fluff [aka, it's meant to be a mythic type tale anyway, the narrator may be embellishing a bit]). I'm not all that convinced by the medium armor symbolism (if anything, their weapons would be the symbols); anyway, you really should have light armor proficiency - even if the abilities focused on medium armor stay (which I don't really have anything against), there's still the matter that for everything else, medium armor comes with light, and also not gimping the guys because they lost equipment. And don't make religious apologetics mechanically superior; why not give a weapon proficiency to any, and saying in some of the flavor paragraphs that they normally know how to use their deities' weapons? Yeah, I did mean for both the weapons and the armor to be symbols... I figured most people wouldn't agree with me but that, I think, is a result of the fact that in D&D medium armor is kind or weird. It should be a balance between fluidity of motion and highest protection possible... but it's kind of not... so I blame WotC for that... and attempted to have this class fix it because in the use of an Apologetic medium armor becomes the perfect balance of higher AC with ease of movement. It finds a happy medium. I meant to make the Apologetics another type of divine class (normally, a prophet or messenger or representative of their god, if you will), so I'm probably keeping the part that you think makes them "mechanically superior." They are meant for about 90% of all Apologetics to be religious. About the whole favored weapon thing: Why, anyway? Several deities have non-simple favored weapons, anyway. Unless you're solely optimizing and just going through seeing which classes give you free weapon proficiency with whatever weapon you want, what's the big deal? You also don't have to use your deity's favored weapon. I don't think either of the sample characters do... If the class has 20 levels, the idea of it stopping learning auras at 10's obscene. And don't dare say "dragon shaman" because that ties with divine mind and marshal (not this one, though) for crappiest class ever, crappier than even most third-party classes I know). Also, re-check the auras; they have some large internal imbalances - for one, I agree with most of what Mantha said. May point out more later. You may be right here but don't say "don't dare say 'dragon shaman'" because think about it. Those classes that already have auras were obviously going to provide the large base for this class. I was not going to begin with this class being more powerful than those because it's my first attempt. I was starting from the low end and hoping to work my way upward in power, not have to scale it down and have people shouting "OVERPOWERED!" at me. Part of the reason I made this class is because I love the dragon shaman and wanted to try my hand at an aura based class with a bit more of a divine spin on it. Also, I would like to see more aura based classes. I'm hoping to make one that works and works well but I didn't want to shoot so far over the precedent as to crush any chance of people taking it seriously. So far, I think only one person ever said that I didn't have enough auras etc, and I think I doubled it since then. Plus, it's true, they don't get more auras... but the auras they have get better. I didn't think it was that horrible to just have a few especially given the fact that you can only have one at a time active for about 3/4 of the levels. Further, I did plan on making sure the auras were completely balanced after the contest because I figured I would have several comments about them since they are one of the major abilities of the class. I'd suggest extra Skill Focus feats along. I put the Skill Focus in, in the first place, to imply that there are three types of Apologetics which focus on those three skills, generally. I'm interpreting your suggestion one of two ways: 1. Add more points where they pick up second (and possibly third or more) Skill Foci as class features, which: I don't like because I hate giving feats as class features, all the time (That's so horribly lame) I don't like because then there goes the idea that they "Focus" in the first place 2. Add additional Skill Foci feats to choose from, which: Would be good if I added more Cha-based skills, which I don't really want to do And don't really know why it has lay on hands: first, healing, when not an outright magical ability, normally comes from classes that bolster fighting spirits, which's not really the case. But I could see a soothing voice that healed people within hearing range and healed effects other than hit point damage too. This was to bolster the divine background of the Apologetic, so that people could see that it is meant to be a divine-type class, even if you decide not to play it that way. They also utilize the Lay on Hands in atonement, which I really, really love for the flavor of the class on the whole. Plus, they have an aura that does Fast Healing as well... I just see it as a bit of healing granted by their deity, similar to Paladins'. Helps them to be the role that I mean them to be: secondary everything/supporty types-ish. Common ground: a character is a character is a character. The setting doesn't put PC tags around - whatever you do, do something that you're comfortable applying equally to everyone. This... I just don't know what to say... Um... this ability is really only meant to be used for the function of Diplomacy. That's why it directly affects attitudes... which only NPC's have... you literally can't use Diplomacy on other PC's... All in all, a really cool class. But don't get mistaken on one thing: it's not any more roleplayable than any class with a decent array of options. That is, some few classes need not apply, but the apologetic isn't any "superior in roleplay" than a cleric, incarnate, psion, rogue, warblade, wizard, or lots of others. Technically no, but because it focuses on actually increasing the amount of actual social interaction (since the abilities literally play right into that) between PC's and NPC's it basically forces RPing to happen. A rogue doesn't have to talk to a goblin to sneak attack him (and actually it would probably mess things up)... but an Apologetic using Friendly Approach is SUPPOSED to talk to the possible enemies he is approaching. Name how many other classes have several abilities that encourage social interaction with your environment, that in order to use the abilities you have to RP with an NPC. And sure, some lame RP'er could just skip it and say, "I convince him, with my Friendly Approach..." but seriously... the abilities scream to be role-played. The Friendly Approach would even most likely be different every time it happens. When a cleric or paladin turn undead, they raise their symbol and shout or pray or whatever, but most likely it's the same thing (or really close each time). In a Friendly Approach, you have to adapt to the situation, think about who you are talking to, etc. It's... "RP-friendly." You really have to get into your character for each and every time you use the feature... many other classes don't have nearly as many things that you would have to do that for (maybe they have some... and maybe you can invent your own ways to RP things... but this hands opportunities for RP to you on a platter, "Here's an amazing chance to RP! Here's another! Use this ability and RP it up!"). You're right, overall, (it doesn't immediately beat out any class for RP) but I still think that this class offers a bit more opportunity inherent in its abilities for RP. I wrote this along several different days, so some of it could be completely off base... I just wanted to get a reply in since I've let this lapse way too long. Please keep responding, but keep in mind, I am still waiting on the Cookie Contest full reviews. I hope I answered the questions or comments in ways that make sense. Like I said... I'm scatter-brained right now, too, so... bear with me if something is completely dumb, I might not be in my right mind.
Flamewarrior 03-22-08, 02:08 AM	If there are any left at this point then the spell checker is broken and I need to go back to grade school. I only found four typos, however, in over 5,500 words... so I'm impressed that they grabbed any attention.You write well - no need for grade school. In a way you are right... in a way, I disagree with the overall claim. They actually don't shift emphasis to a single component, necessarily (although, they could... I suppose). The matter of the fact is that on whatever component they are neutral, they will not have a stance to uphold and therefore are less extreme than those who must uphold two stances simultaneously in their actions. A LG hero will fight the hardest against an action that breaks the law and doesn't uphold good. A NG hero will not worry about whether or not something breaks the law as long as it is good. Any character with a neutral component is least likely to have an argument on any random given issue than any character without any neutral component because they have more stricture guiding their actions. A partially neutral character inherently allows for flexibility in more conditions than characters who are not.A LG character has more flexibility to deal with LEs than a NG due to having common ground - it's all relative, a NG has no reason whatsoever to budge, unlike the LG, who might be guided by lawfulness. Well, that's certainly a possible direction. I can't simply add those things, however; I'd have to take other things away. Perhaps, I could do a variant that would be more martial and use bonuses to grapple, etc, while losing... I don't know... something. The reason they didn't have too many of those before was the fact of their medium BAB, which would make abilities like that poor after a few levels. I'll have to think about this. It just changes the focus that I originally wanted for this class. I mean... I did hand them proficiencies with weapons that would allow them plenty of chances to restrain people... and I gave them the shouts, which can help work to restrain people... so... yeah.I don't think you need to take anything - namely, I think that's still weak. I don't see why... but maybe you could convince me (also, I don't want to make them highly skill intensive or anything so, I didn't want to push too many skills on them). See, why does would he have all Knowledges just because he "spreads the word?" Wouldn't he only ever need knowledge in whatever it is he's attempting to spread? Plus, I figured history was good enough to supplement anything else he may need to know about. I did consider throwing in Knowledge (local), however... Maybe, I could see, two or three knowledges max, taken separately... because as a "prophet" or "messenger" or whatever type, you don't want to spread yourself too thin knowledge-wise. I would think... but again, maybe you could convince me otherwise...I said "all" in part because knowledges have been handed either in the whole or pre-set, and in part because if the message's "knowledge conquers all", let them bust out full frontal nerdity ... Intimidate basically ALWAYS breaks the Code of Tolerance. (...) Plus, the flavor of Intimidate breaks the idea of the Code of Tolerance. (...) Darien's example is slightly different, it's supposed to be the use of one of the Apologetic abilities (Staggering Shout) but... [aka, it's meant to be a mythic type tale anyway, the narrator may be embellishing a bit]).Both Intimidate and the shouts should count as attacks, and should thus be breaches unless there's nothing else to do. Also: "embellishing" is what fantasy's about ... Yeah, I did mean for both the weapons and the armor to be symbols... I figured most people wouldn't agree with me but that, I think, is a result of the fact that in D&D medium armor is kind or weird. It should be a balance between fluidity of motion and highest protection possible... but it's kind of not... so I blame WotC for that... and attempted to have this class fix it because in the use of an Apologetic medium armor becomes the perfect balance of higher AC with ease of movement. It finds a happy medium.Hilarity: you add mtg_shep for pointing this out - now you correct me (who pointed it first, not that it matters much, just makes it funnier) ... I meant to make the Apologetics another type of divine class (normally, a prophet or messenger or representative of their god, if you will), so I'm probably keeping the part that you think makes them "mechanically superior." They are meant for about 90% of all Apologetics to be religious. About the whole favored weapon thing: Why, anyway? Several deities have non-simple favored weapons, anyway. Unless you're solely optimizing and just going through seeing which classes give you free weapon proficiency with whatever weapon you want, what's the big deal? You also don't have to use your deity's favored weapon. I don't think either of the sample characters do...90% percent? Either 100%, or change it. Don't give a choice that isn't a choice. And there come the apologetics of whatever god gives the spiked chain, while the Atheists cry, despite being allowed ... You may be right here but don't say "don't dare say 'dragon shaman'" because think about it. Those classes that already have auras were obviously going to provide the large base for this class. I was not going to begin with this class being more powerful than those because it's my first attempt. I was starting from the low end and hoping to work my way upward in power, not have to scale it down and have people shouting "OVERPOWERED!" at me.I fully understand the importance of precedents, but the bad ones should just be tossed as the garbage they are - we're seriously talking about some of the worst classes here. Now that you hit the low power end with a cool concept, you can work your way up just like you just said. :P Plus, it's true, they don't get more auras... but the auras they have get better. I didn't think it was that horrible to just have a few especially given the fact that you can only have one at a time active for about 3/4 of the levels.Yes, it is pretty horrible. A major ability that just ... stops improving. I put the Skill Focus in, in the first place, to imply that there are three types of Apologetics which focus on those three skills, generally. I'm interpreting your suggestion one of two ways: (...)I meant "extra feats" - but anyway, that's inconsequential either way. This was to bolster the divine background of the Apologetic, so that people could see that it is meant to be a divine-type class, even if you decide not to play it that way. They also utilize the Lay on Hands in atonement, which I really, really love for the flavor of the class on the whole. Plus, they have an aura that does Fast Healing as well... I just see it as a bit of healing granted by their deity, similar to Paladins'. Helps them to be the role that I mean them to be: secondary everything/supporty types-ish.Yeah, and I think it might fit even better if their words healed people - also, "divine = healing" doesn't fly much with me actually. Um... this ability is really only meant to be used for the function of Diplomacy. That's why it directly affects attitudes... which only NPC's have... you literally can't use Diplomacy on other PC's...I don't recall any literal "PCs don't have attitudes" quote (only "Diplomacy doesn't affect PCs"), but still: there being anything in the first place that affects PCs and NPCs differently just because they're so's craptastic; it'd be better if it did whatever it did across the board (IMO, anyway), but you can just follow precedent here ... Technically no, but because it focuses on actually increasing the amount of actual social interaction (since the abilities literally play right into that) between PC's and NPC's it basically forces RPing to happen. You're right, overall, (it doesn't immediately beat out any class for RP) but I still think that this class offers a bit more opportunity inherent in its abilities for RP.Fair enough on "a bit more inherent opportunity", but don't think there's no roleplay in combat. Also, I somewhat do share Mantha's opinion that it is entirely possible (not necessarily likely) for it to devolve into repetition.
jradd777 03-22-08, 03:52 AM	A LG character has more flexibility to deal with LEs than a NG due to having common ground - it's all relative, a NG has no reason whatsoever to budge, unlike the LG, who might be guided by lawfulness. You're using situations that are specifically relative. I'm talking about all variables aside (Occam's razor). Without citing all those several examples that may or may not happen... the simplest and most often, most correct postulate is that any character with a neutral aspect will be less "extreme" than one with two. You're example is still not necessarily correct for your point either. A LG character only has more flexibility to deal with a LE character if the topic concerns their common ground, in every other situation your hypothesis would likely be incorrect. In other, simpler words... they only work better together if they are doing something lawful together, which the NG character could also take part in. Further, given that realization, the NG character could, therefore, also get along with a LE (since they don't actually clash on that lawfulness aspect) and CG/LN/CE/NE/etc. simultaneously, and could possibly act as a middle ground bringing the two into a workable team unit (which is something an Apologetic would love to do), while a LG character could probably not do it nearly as well. That neutral alignment being flexible enough to accommodate both lawfulness and chaos is overall always more flexible than that lawful. Let's just do this literally in the Occam's razor method. Use the true neutral for the starting point... he should be able to work with ANY other possible alignment. That becomes the one "extreme" in that they are extremely flexible. Now in comparison, any character with a single neutral alignment would be the next most flexible because they are roughly half as flexible as the true neutral. We've narrowed down many situations without using specific examples that would complicate the simplest answer. Finally, any character with two defined aspects would therefore be the least flexible, by being roughly half as flexible as the previous group, and comprising the opposite pole of the flexibility spectrum. At least, within ALL given situations; setting all variables aside. I suppose you could be right in saying that those with a neutral alignment are potentially as extreme as those with both defined... but it is more correct to simply assume that they are not because that potential relies directly on circumstances more specific than the other condition, which are also more rare. I don't think you need to take anything - namely, I think that's still weak. Looking at the whole class again, after having not looked at it for months, my first instinct is that you're right. It is pretty weak and needs to be stronger. I don't know that the stronger martially is the route I want to go with these guys. I don't want them to be front-line meleers even when they are allowed to fight. I'd like them to be more support/secondary fighters. So, I'll work on raising the bar on their auras, most likely... something like that... I said "all" in part because knowledges have been handed either in the whole or pre-set, and in part because if the message's "knowledge conquers all", let them bust out full frontal nerdity ... Um... I might change it to all, I don't know... it would offer more diverse types of Apologetics to delve into the Knowledges that they choose, I had just felt at the time that the history could cover that and the divine angle justified religion. Both Intimidate and the shouts should count as attacks, and should thus be breaches unless there's nothing else to do. Also: "embellishing" is what fantasy's about ... Not really... but even if shouts count as attacks, they are ok, as long as he's not doing them before giving the enemy a chance to compromise, etc. first... Intimidate is always forceful coercion and even if used in a defensive manner, is forceful coercion. Hilarity: you add mtg_shep for pointing this out - now you correct me (who pointed it first, not that it matters much, just makes it funnier) ... Yeah, I have to come clean on that one... that was a joke. I know mtg_shep in RL and I wanted to add him to my buddy list so he commented to make it easier for me to add him. I'm glad you labeled it "Hilarity." I really, really liked the concept of them only ever training in medium armor... but c' est la vie... 90% percent? Either 100%, or change it. Don't give a choice that isn't a choice. And there come the apologetics of whatever god gives the spiked chain, while the Atheists cry, despite being allowed ... It is a choice that is a choice. An Apologetic that worships a deity is limited in ways that an Apologetic who doesn't is not. Maybe not mechanically within my class but his actions are always in servitude of his god, guided by what his god commands (and for this service he is rewarded with a favored weapon). One who worships no deity makes up his own mind within his cause or message (and for that freedom he sacrifices a deity favored weapon). I would possibly consent to adding a mechanical restriction to Apologetics with deities, but I don't want to make them inferior in doing so... Also... do people make the same waves about the War domain? I fully understand the importance of precedents, but the bad ones should just be tossed as the garbage they are - we're seriously talking about some of the worst classes here. Now that you hit the low power end with a cool concept, you can work your way up just like you just said. :P I, actually, really liked the Dragon Shaman a lot... so it stings a little when you're so mean to him. Yeah, like I said, I'm going to probably work on making the auras better. Still waiting on that darn Cookie Contest review...:waits: Yes, it is pretty horrible. A major ability that just ... stops improving. It improves... just not enough... Yeah, and I think it might fit even better if their words healed people - also, "divine = healing" doesn't fly much with me actually. I'll defend this in part with the fact that it was my very first attempt at a class, ever. However, I do feel that healing should be primarily the divine role. Since they need a kick up anyway, I'm thinking about increasing the amount of healing points they have (to the level of Dragon Shaman's or somewhat better). Maybe I can flavor it to work off of their voice... or something... but I don't want it to feel like a "bardy" ability... I don't recall any literal "PCs don't have attitudes" quote (only "Diplomacy doesn't affect PCs"), but still: there being anything in the first place that affects PCs and NPCs differently just because they're so's craptastic; it'd be better if it did whatever it did across the board (IMO, anyway), but you can just follow precedent here ... Yeah, the reason Diplomacy doesn't affect PC's is because they lack that literal mechanism that Diplomacy manipulates... why else wouldn't it work? Again, this ability also manipulates that mechanic (which PC's don't have, so it does do it across the board, PC's just happen to not be on that board), and there's no reason it should affect PC's actual free will, which is what changing it to affect PC's would acomplish. Fair enough on "a bit more inherent opportunity", but don't think there's no roleplay in combat. Also, I somewhat do share Mantha's opinion that it is entirely possible (not necessarily likely) for it to devolve into repetition. Well, thank you, and yes, it is possible... I believe I've never claimed it impossible. That was my entire point... simply that, it offers more opportunity because the abilities literally invoke RPing chances. Yes, I know there is some role-play in combat... but if you're really RPing in combat, you'd be doing it best by jumping out of your chair and probably causing a lot of damage to someone's home, too out of breath to speak... whereas, RPing conversation and social situations makes the RPing that is being done more "(house) friendly" and engaging and rich. You actually feel like you're doing it and becoming your character. Narrating some battle scene, move by move, and action by action, will never be as good RPing as actually doing what your character is doing, IMO. However... if you have a place that you can "get into" the combat as well as an Apologetic can "get into" striking a deal with his usual nemesis... good for you :P .
Flamewarrior 03-23-08, 08:12 PM	[alignments]There isn't an "all variables aside" way of slicing it. The matter's just that characters with one neutral alignment would tend to be less flexible on questions related to it than those with none, because the latter have wiggle room to sacrifice one concern for another, while the former don't. Looking at the whole class again, after having not looked at it for months, my first instinct is that you're right. It is pretty weak and needs to be stronger. I don't know that the stronger martially is the route I want to go with these guys. I don't want them to be front-line meleers even when they are allowed to fight. I'd like them to be more support/secondary fighters. So, I'll work on raising the bar on their auras, most likely... something like that...Certainly you can disagree that martiality's the way to go, but just improving the auras doesn't give them something proactive and good to do for themselves in combat - e.g., take the marshal: even if its auras gave +2/level, the character would still suck because none of its actions' worth talking about (already solved by the martial adept variant I linked previously :)). One thing that might be enough (along with an aura improvement, I mean) might be to put the shouting a little earlier (around the point where having a crossbow ceases to be enough for winning). But the reason I suggested martiality's the fact that it already has a cool set of weapon proficiencies, that will get forgotten before level 10 as the class stands. :( Not really... but even if shouts count as attacks, they are ok, as long as he's not doing them before giving the enemy a chance to compromise, etc. first... Intimidate is always forceful coercion and even if used in a defensive manner, is forceful coercion.Let me tell you the news: denying someone the chance to hold a weapon is coercion precisely as much. And I don't thnk it shouldn't be wrong if everything else seemed to fail. It is a choice that is a choice. An Apologetic that worships a deity is limited in ways that an Apologetic who doesn't is not. Maybe not mechanically within my class but his actions are always in servitude of his god, guided by what his god commands (and for this service he is rewarded with a favored weapon). One who worships no deity makes up his own mind within his cause or message (and for that freedom he sacrifices a deity favored weapon). I would possibly consent to adding a mechanical restriction to Apologetics with deities, but I don't want to make them inferior in doing so...Fair enough if you enforce an extra roleplay limitation; but in that case I suggest writing it in a code of conduct section. As for the War domain, let me tell you a story: not long after 3.0 was released, Frank Trollman (who you can see nowadays at this great forum (www.tgdmb.com)) made a thread to show how sucky the arcane archer was. I'm fairly sure the example single-classed cleric involved the War domain for the longbow, and that made the "cleric archer" famous, which became CoDzilla when the druid was broken too ... I, actually, really liked the Dragon Shaman a lot... so it stings a little when you're so mean to him. Yeah, like I said, I'm going to probably work on making the auras better. Still waiting on that darn Cookie Contest review...Feel free to like the concept, but if you defend the balance, I'll skewer you, not just sting. You might be interested in this fix, though I'm not sure even it goes far enough. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Cookie Contest told you this class is too good because it's better than the dragon shaman ... Maybe I can flavor it to work off of their voice... or something... but I don't want it to feel like a "bardy" ability...At the point you put voice in at all, it already feels vaguely bardic, but this class isn't sneaky or underhanded pretty much at all, and the bard doesn't really soothe people with bardic music, so I don't see much overlap. Yeah, the reason Diplomacy doesn't affect PC's is because they lack that literal mechanism that Diplomacy manipulates... why else wouldn't it work? Again, this ability also manipulates that mechanic (which PC's don't have, so it does do it across the board, PC's just happen to not be on that board), and there's no reason it should affect PC's actual free will, which is what changing it to affect PC's would acomplish.Hilariously enough, RAW implies PCs do "have attitudes", and that they're just immune to change (which isn't what the ability does). But either way, I think the PC/NPC distinction's always bad enough, and didn't need to be furthered here. Also, considering this ability can be negated simply by an hostile attitude, I'm not seeing the problem. Narrating some battle scene, move by move, and action by action, will never be as good RPing as actually doing what your character is doing, IMO. However... if you have a place that you can "get into" the combat as well as an Apologetic can "get into" striking a deal with his usual nemesis... good for you .You can "do what your character is doing" in combat as well, in the sense of "doing what they'd do" instead of the metagaming that usually takes place in combat; nothing to do with physical action. And, while talking in combat should be avoided for focus reasons, if you're so out of breath that you couldn't at all, you're doing something wrong ...
jradd777 03-23-08, 10:57 PM	There isn't an "all variables aside" way of slicing it. The matter's just that characters with one neutral alignment would tend to be less flexible on questions related to it than those with none, because the latter have wiggle room to sacrifice one concern for another, while the former don't. Yes... there is... evidenced easily by your use of those variables in order to reach your conclusion. You get to your opinion based on using the possible variables involved. Since there is a "variables considered" way of slicing it, there is also an "all variables aside" way of slicing it. And even so, characters with some neutrality have more wiggle room that characters without. I mean... the way I described the entire logic of my argument, I thought made that pretty obvious. Sure... in certain specific situations they have a potential to be the least flexible person... but in all situations considered simultaneously, True N is most often, most flexible, followed by single neutral aspect, and least flexible are those with 2 defined aspects. That neutral aspect is their flexibility, because in that way they ALWAYS have that alignment in common with the other person, since they can just agree with that person in that way, since the neutrality gives them the freedom in that stance to conform to the other person's belief in their defined alignment. Exactly the same way as the person who literally does have the same alignment. But the neutral person could just as easily also swing that neutral alignment the opposite direction if the situation called for it, whereas the person with the defined alignment can't. Certainly you can disagree that martiality's the way to go, but just improving the auras doesn't give them something proactive and good to do for themselves in combat - e.g., take the marshal: even if its auras gave +2/level, the character would still suck because none of its actions' worth talking about (already solved by the martial adept variant I linked previously :)). One thing that might be enough (along with an aura improvement, I mean) might be to put the shouting a little earlier (around the point where having a crossbow ceases to be enough for winning). But the reason I suggested martiality's the fact that it already has a cool set of weapon proficiencies, that will get forgotten before level 10 as the class stands. :( I never did get a chance to look at the marital adept variant you posted... I'll get around to it... Okay... moving the shouts to earlier is probably good and doable, plus, it opens up the chance to insert one or two more of them. I had, actually, considered that idea a long time ago, pending any real support for the overall idea of the shouts. Hmm... I'd like to add a tiny bit of martiality... just not in the form of higher BAB and those sort of things... I want him to still seem hands-offish or something... although at one point I did think about giving them some sort of special bonuses to attacks with a select group of weapons when tripping, disarming, entangling etc. I am currently rolling around a concept of mobilizing the auras in such a way as maybe temporarily granting them to other allies with a slightly limited functionality... like Prayer Blessings over his friends, to help add a cool use of the auras. Let me tell you the news: denying someone the chance to hold a weapon is coercion precisely as much. And I don't thnk it shouldn't be wrong if everything else seemed to fail. No, they have the chance to hold that weapon and use that chance, before the Apologetic can use his ability, you can't disarm a person who isn't armed :rolleyes:. It's not coercion, and they can actively attempt to keep holding their weapon as per their save, which they can take feats, etc to improve. OTOH, Intimidate is based on a preset number, HD or level check, or whatever, that they have little ability to defend; they can't make their level higher than it is, they can't invest points into their level check, while a PC can invest into Intimidate and take feats, etc. to improve it. If they can, I'm unaware of them, but I still see it as much more coercion, plus, the shouts do count as offensive attacks as per the Code (I just double checked and can only be used as reactions to someone initiating an attack first). However, Intimidate isn't an attack as much as the second part of the Code, forceful persuasion, which is why it's not allowed. Fair enough if you enforce an extra roleplay limitation; but in that case I suggest writing it in a code of conduct section. As for the War domain, let me tell you a story: not long after 3.0 was released, Frank Trollman (who you can see nowadays at this great forum (www.tgdmb.com)) made a thread to show how sucky the arcane archer was. I'm fairly sure the example single-classed cleric involved the War domain for the longbow, and that made the "cleric archer" famous, which became CoDzilla when the druid was broken too ... Okay, well, I asked about the War domain because I didn't know. Yes, I'll be including a clause in the Code of Conduct for Apologetic's with deities (Whew... for disobeying their dieties, they would probably lose the powers that their deities grant them, including auras, lay on hands, shouts? etc). I probably did go too far in assuming that people would simply RP their characters as servants to their deities without me having to say that's how it's supposed to work. Feel free to like the concept, but if you defend the balance, I'll skewer you, not just sting. You might be interested in this fix, though I'm not sure even it goes far enough. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Cookie Contest told you this class is too good because it's better than the dragon shaman ... Heh, yeah, I mean, I'm not a great judge of balance but I would put it on the low end, myself. I did very much enjoy playing them (low powered as they may be) anyway, though, which is what it's all about, IMO. At the point you put voice in at all, it already feels vaguely bardic, but this class isn't sneaky or underhanded pretty much at all, and the bard doesn't really soothe people with bardic music, so I don't see much overlap. You know... I might roll touch of vitality, lay on hands, and some new stuff together to make a more unique ability that does some of the same things with a little more Apologetic flavor and do it that way, probably incorporating the voice as you say... but I do want to make sure to do it in a way that I could never see a bard doing it similarly enough. Hilariously enough, RAW implies PCs do "have attitudes", and that they're just immune to change (which isn't what the ability does). But either way, I think the PC/NPC distinction's always bad enough, and didn't need to be furthered here. Also, considering this ability can be negated simply by an hostile attitude, I'm not seeing the problem. I could see, possibly, the implication that you are talking about but that's not really how it reads to me. It does change their attitude, which it really shouldn't be able to do to PC's. OTOH, at first I felt the same way, (you know, I figured, why wouldn't your party members like you fully anyway and the point be moot? why would the ability's effect ever actually come into play between PC's in the first place?) but previous posters' opinions were so strong that I felt there must be enough behind it to justify that distinction; I didn't want to have to respond to a bunch of people tearing my class apart on that one ridiculous point. Maybe I jumped to change it too quickly. I, also, didn't see a reason to change it back since... yeah... who really cares?.. it is a moot point... either way I write it, it basically has no effect on PC's anyway. You can "do what your character is doing" in combat as well, in the sense of "doing what they'd do" instead of the metagaming that usually takes place in combat; nothing to do with physical action. It's so subtle, though, that the "realism" is lost in those RPing moments for me. Sure, you know that you're doing what your character is doing but... it's still not full and rich as much as when you use your Apologetic abilities when you aren't just doing what your character would do but being at the moment generative and creative from within that role. And, while talking in combat should be avoided for focus reasons, if you're so out of breath that you couldn't at all, you're doing something wrong ... I don't know... every real fight I've ever been in that was any good (any challenge), I was out of breath.
Flamewarrior 03-25-08, 03:51 PM	Alignment: you're assuming that someone with a neutral alignment component can do stuff either way without caring, and also that people with no neutral component won't feel divided by them and consider both sides in any negotiation. I don't think either's true; but anyway, I find alignment pointless enough that I'm interested in dropping the issue. Coercion: Intimidate = level-based check to force someone to do your bidding. Shout = level-based check to force people to drop stuff. I fail to see the difference. Fights: well, were you so short of breath that you couldn't talk even if you disengaged?
jradd777 03-25-08, 04:29 PM	Alignment: you're assuming that someone with a neutral alignment component can do stuff either way without caring, and also that people with no neutral component won't feel divided by them and consider both sides in any negotiation. I don't think either's true; but anyway, I find alignment pointless enough that I'm interested in dropping the issue. Kay, I can agree to disagree, we definitely look at alignment differently so it's just not going to go anywhere. Coercion: Intimidate = level-based check to force someone to do your bidding. Shout = level-based check to force people to drop stuff. I fail to see the difference. The difference is coercion doesn't give someone a chance to compromise. It falls into the second category of the Code. Shout falls into the first category of the Code and can only be done as a reaction to someone foregoing the chance to compromise. So, first things first, in comparing the two to each other, by my RAW for my class, you're comparing apples to oranges (one is an attack, one is persuasion) because they follow different rules for how they break the Code. Secondly, there's more someone can do (draw another weapon, fight barefisted, grapple, trip, bullrush, etc, etc) that is still their own actions even if they lose a weapon, if they are doing what you force them to because of Intimidation, having them give up all of the options or furthering of their own cause, with NO other alternatives whatsoever... it's a completely different situation. In the first, they can still uphold their cause, you just take away their option to do it with a weapon. Fights: well, were you so short of breath that you couldn't talk even if you disengaged? Yeah, you've still got to take at least a couple seconds to catch your breath (which, 10 rounds is one minute, so... I doubt anyone fighting hard would be talking on their round)... unless it's not a real fight, not trying that hard, or you're in such a peak physical condition that you're up there with Bruce Lee... but maybe I was doing something wrong, the only training with fighting I've ever had was unofficial from my dad based on his Marine Corps training.