Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jradd777 10-02-07, 12:42 AM	So, we've all seen the same characters over and over again. They fight, they cast, they sneak, they sing and most of all these actions are focused on doing them in combat. The role-playing aspect of D&D has often seemed lost or segregated amidst the d20 rolls for swords and spells in a heated, bloody struggle. Now for something... a little different... Apologetic http://www.donatoart.com/magic/truce.jpg "Hark! Ye men, regard my words with prudent attention… for I come bearing witness to truth… we are not so different, you and I…," -- Garahk, Orc Apologetic, struggling to be heard over the clan of dwarves he is addressing. Fluff and Flavor (note: some of the class abilities' reasons for being are explained within) Strong belief, whether it be philosophical, religious, or political, throughout history has often provoked warfare and hate. Rather than spread extremism, many have discovered that strong but tolerant defense of belief can reduce bloodshed and promote healthy relations between people of various and diverse backgrounds. The exemplars of this credo are those called the Apologetics. Adventures: New lands bring learning to extend the Apologetic’s own understanding of other cultures and beliefs to improve their ability to defend their ideologies. Also, for Apologetics, adventuring opens a course for missionary work to spread their philosophy of moderation and tolerance and ultimately their message of belief. Sometimes fanatics overstep their bounds, thus, Apologetics are obligated to respond to the prejudice by resorting to grim, sometimes violent, measures. Characteristics: An Apologetic relies most heavily upon his or her skill in persuading their way around or out of a sticky situation. Their “gift of gab” and ability to relate to others often succeeds in making physical fighting unnecessary. In fact, by right of respect for others the Apologetics follow an unofficial code of conduct, which frowns upon punishment first and asking questions later. However when the call for meeting resistance with clenched fists arises, the Apologetic is not without a contingency plan. Apologetics take the idea of compromise very seriously and sometimes illustrate this through use of symbolic equipment. Most apparent in this aspect is the Apologetic affinity for medium armor. Apologetics see medium armor as a compromise between the best possible defense and fluidity and ease of motion. Eventually, the Apologetic learns to move so freely within the confines of medium armor he wears it like a second skin. Apologetics also tend find alternatives to conventional weaponry to most fully practice violence as a last resort. Most Apologetics are well trained in the use of the whip and bolas. If an Apologetic minds caution and stays a few good paces away from a potential threat, these weapons are invaluable to keep him from having to enter into a bloody conflict. The whip supplies a wide berth from shady characters and is ultimately desirable for the Apologetic because it tends to only sting a little and do no real harm. Further, the whip offers a couple of options beyond an offensive strike. The Apologetics are best at grabbing hold of enemies’ limbs to trip them or even snatching the weapons from their hands to give himself a chance to heard. The bolas, normally uncommon in most parts, are attractive to the Apologetics, again, because they tend not to hurt their target and can stop them in their tracks from a safe distance, if the Apologetic sees that they will be attacked. Background: In earlier days, the strength of most ideas was measured by the lives taken in its name, whether followers admit to the fact or not. Bloodstained battlefields gleamed in setting suns, as those still standing flew the flag of their master to “glorify their triumph.” Unfortunately, history is written by the victor; is it truly a “triumph” when a dictator overthrows a benevolent monarch? The physical prowess of a ruler’s army, a god’s followers, or the acolytes of a particular ideology is not a function of the accuracy of their cause. Fists and fury do not decide who is right and who is wrong. The merciless killing of an entire populace should no longer be considered a method for furthering one’s cause. Society and civilization demands that we move away from barbarous confrontation and brutal slaying. Apologetics represent the answer to this problem. Someone must act as the compromise; someone must pull for the “happy medium” before the world erupts into pure chaos. MAKING AN APOLOGETIC Game Rule Information Abilities: Charisma is most important for the Apologetic because they rely on their ability of persuasion to avoid open confrontation and promote acceptance between hostile groups (Charisma is important for many of the Apologetic class skills). Constitution can provide needed additional hit points. Races: Any. Apologetics range across most races as many peoples recognize the importance of cooperation between the races to end the warfare that often rages between entire societies. A majority of Apologetics are human which stems from their ambitious nature and tendency to maximize resources by interacting with all manner of various civilizations. Of course, these relationships lead to complicated networks of alliances and rivalries and the need for Apologetics is much higher. Again, in several races there will appear at least a few who carry the flag of neutrality or understanding of others. Alignment: Any Neutral. Apologetics always display some amount of neutrality as a rule of their way of life. No person who is completely extremist in nature will likely ever be attracted to this way of life. However, there is normally some aspect that drives the Apologetic to spread a cause, belief, or ideal and truly neutral Apologetics can be fairly rare. Starting Gold: 5d4 x 10 (125 gp) Starting Age: As paladin Hit Die: d8. Level Base Attack Fort Ref Will Class Features Prayer Auras 1. +0 +2 +0 +2 Code of Tolerance, Prayer +1 1st 2. +1 +3 +0 +3 Lay on Hands 1st 3. +2 +3 +1 +3 Shun the Non-Believer 2nd 4. +3 +4 +1 +4 Armor Mastery (Medium) 2nd 5. +3 +4 +1 +4 Prayer +2 3rd 6. +4 +5 +2 +5 Friendly Approach (+2), Detect Alignment 3rd 7. +5 +5 +2 +5 Shout (Disarming) 3rd 8. +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Improved Armor Mastery (Medium) 4th 9. +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Shout (Staggering) 4th 10. +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Prayer +3 5th 11. +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Friendly Approach (+3) 5th 12. +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Detect Alignment (Any) 5th 13. +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Shout (Disorienting) 5th 14. +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Friendly Approach (Above the Din) 5th 15. +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Prayer +4 5th 16. +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Friendly Approach (+4), Dual Aura 5th 17. +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Shout (Sundering) 5th 18. +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Common Ground 5th 19. +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Allay Ignorance 5th 20. +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Prayer +5 5th Class Skills The Apologetic class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (n/a), Spot (Wis). See Chapter 4 in the Core Rulebook 1 for skill descriptions. Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at each additional Level: 4 + Int modifier Class Features **(Several of the Apologetic's abilities will probably implement the Diplomacy skill. I suggest using these Diplomacy rules (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html) in conjunction with Apologetic. I haven't revamped the skill myself but this rework was the system used to create several of the Apologetic class abilities concerning the Diplomacy skill.)** All of the following are class features of the Apologetic. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An Apologetic is proficient with simple weapons, medium armor and with shields (except tower shields). An Apologetic also has proficiency with a the exotic weapons whip and bolas. Apologetics that worship a deity are also proficient with their deity’s favored weapon. Code of Tolerance: The Apologetic cannot help but to live his or her life by a policy devoted to accepting, to an extent, every belief that is different from his or her own. They hope to better the world by showing others that cooperation and understanding are better than extremism and fanaticism. The Code of Tolerance focuses on giving others a chance. If an Apologetic has ample opportunity to talk their way out of a fight and forgoes the chance, giving in to violence, they take a -2 penalty to attack rolls and saves for the rest of the day. The Apologetic pulls punches, hesitates, and can’t keep their mind clear knowing that they have been hypocritical and sullied the name of that for which they stand. An Apologetic will not use their persuasion deceitfully or in a manner to force someone to act as they normally would not. An Apologetic means to gently gain acceptance and understanding from others, not coerce them into mindless obedience. An Apologetic that attempts to willfully force someone to forsake their previous ideas loses some conviction in their own purpose and thereby takes a -2 penalty to all Charisma-based checks for the rest of the day. Prayer: The Apologetic’s first ability is that of prayer. His softly spoken mutterings in the day’s first light can later invoke magical auras, which benefit the Apologetic and his allies. Good Apologetics tend to learn only prayers beneficial to himself and his party while evil Apologetics tend to learn prayers which concentrate on foiling extremists and fanatics that attempt to resolve conflicts through violence and intimidation. Praying is done at the beginning of the day. An Apologetic recites from memory every prayer he knows and later can invoke a corresponding aura as a swift action. The aura is in effect unless the Apologetic uses a free action to dismiss it or invokes a new aura. The prayers’ auras are continual and therefore can be in effect at the start of an encounter even before the first turn is taken. Unless otherwise noted, the prayer (grant) auras affect all allies within 30 feet (including the Apologetic) with line of effect to the Apologetic. Some (imprecate) auras affect enemies, rather than the Apologetic and his allies. These auras affect opponents within 15 feet with line of effect to the Apologetic. The prayer is dismissed if the Apologetic becomes unconscious or is slain but otherwise remains in effect if the Apologetic is unable to act. At levels 1, 3, 5, 8, and 10 the Apologetic learns a new prayer. At 1st level, he learns a prayer which creates a 1st level aura. At 3rd level, he learns a prayer which creates a 2nd level aura and so on as represented in the table above. The Apologetic only ever learns 5 prayers from which he can receive an aura. 1st Grant Mercy: +2 non-lethal damage/Apologetic aura bonus 1st Grant Prudence: Bonus to Listen, Spot and Initiative equal to Apologetic aura bonus 1st Imprecate Ambition: - to initiative equal to Apologetic aura bonus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2nd Grant Grace: + Apologetic aura bonus to select skill checks (Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal) 2nd Imprecate Grace: Penalty equal to Apologetic aura bonus to all opponents' Charisma related skill checks 2nd Imprecate Cooperation: Enemies with HD less than your Apologetic level + Apologetic aura bonus can't attack allies that have been attacked by another enemy in the same round ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 3rd Grant Protection: +1 insight AC per point of Apologetic aura bonus and +DR/-- equal to half the Apologetic aura bonus rounded down 3rd Grant Faith: Spell resistance equal to 15 + 3 x Apologetic aura bonus 3rd Imprecate Hostility: Enemies take damage equal to 3 x Apologetic aura bonus in untyped damage when they target the Apologetic’s allies with an attack from within the radius of the aura effect ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4th Grant Vigor: Fast healing equal to the Apologetic aura bonus, affects only characters at or below 50% of their full normal hit points 4th Grant Vigilance: Apologetic's enemies treat the squares that the Apologetic threatens as difficult terrain (a number of allies equal to the Apologetic aura bonus, who are within 30' of the Apologetic and selected by the Apologetic, can be granted this same ability). Also, the DC for an opponent's Sleight of Hand or Tumble check is increased by 2 x Apologetic aura bonus, within these squares. Additionally, allies receive a bonus to Spot and Listen equal to 2 x Apologetic aura bonus, against opponents using Hide and Move Silently, within the aura radius. 4th Imprecate Conviction: Penalty equal to Apologetic aura bonus to all opponents' saves ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5th Grant Resiliency: 20% Fortification per point of Apologetic aura bonus 5th Grant Serenity: Deflection of ranged weapons equal in number to Apologetic aura bonus (this aura cannot be activated more than once per encounter) (this aura acts exactly as the Deflect Arrows feat in PHB 3.5) 5th Imprecate Zeal: - to level dependent benefits (such as caster level, initiator level, or even a paladin's smite) equal to Apologetic aura bonus At 16th level the Apologetic can activate two of these auras simultaneously. When the Apologetic wishes to activate a new aura the previous auras are dismissed in the order that they were activated. Skill Focus: At the beginning of his career, an Apologetic begins perfecting his abilities with a particular aspect of communicating with people. He can focus on getting his point across (Skill Focus [Diplomacy]), collecting info (Skill Focus [Gather Information]), or reading others (Skill Focus [Sense Motive]). Lay on Hands: As paladin. Shun the Non-believer: If the Apologetic is originally unsuccessful in a persuasion attempt, he or she can make a single retry for the same offer at the same original parameters, except on the retry, the Apologetic has learned how to discredit the least cooperative opponents. The Apologetic gains a circumstance bonus to Diplomacy equal to the difference between the highest level opponent's difference in level from the lowest plus the wisdom modifier of the opponent with the highest wisdom. Armor Mastery: Medium armor itself represents a kind of compromise between highest possible defense and need for maneuverability. At 4th Level the Apologetic’s affinity for medium armor increases, decreasing armor check penalty by 2 points. Friendly Approach: The Apologetic learns important body language so that he or she may enter a situation in a non-threatening manner to promote greater trust from his or her audience. The Apologetic hold their weapon in a submissive manner, or hands open and outstretched if unarmed, giving him or her a +2 bonus to Charisma-based checks for a number of rounds equal to Apologetic level. If an Apologetic uses Diplomacy against a creature that is not in combat he gets bonus. In order to use Diplomacy, in this manner, the Apologetic needs to make a "non-threatening gesture." This is a Friendly Approach. This bonus increases by 1 every five Apologetic levels to a maximum of +4 at 16th level. If the Apologetic’s pleas for compromise are unsuccessful after the Friendly Approach, opponents are still considered flat-footed for the first round of combat. Above the Din – At 14th level, in the heat of battle the Apologetic can stop fighting, hold his weapon in a non-threatening manner, or hands open and outstretched if unarmed, and attempt to stop the fighting with his charismatic speaking. Basically, an Apologetic can use the Diplomacy skill as part of a Friendly Approach even after combat has begun. However, Above the Din does not result in opponents being flat-footed for the following round of combat. Detect Alignment: The Apologetic’s practice in reading people at a glance to better understand or persuade them eventually allows them to detect the alignment of those around him or her. At 6th level and higher, as a standard action, an Apologetic can make a Sense Motive check against the target’s modified level check (1d20 + CR + target’s Wisdom bonus ). If successful the Apologetic knows the target’s alignment aspects that match his own. At 12th level and higher, the Apologetic can detect any alignment with the same Sense Motive versus modified level check. Shouts: At 7th level the Apologetic has attained a minimal force of personality that begins to grow and grant him new abilities. Once per encounter, the Apologetic can make a shout, as a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity, at his opponent, up to 100' away that he has line of sight and line of effect to, which increases in capabilities as his force of personality grows. The first shout an Apologetic can command is the Disarming Shout. The Apologetic makes a Charisma check against his opponent’s Dexterity check. If the Apologetic is successful, his shout causes the opponent to drop his weapon at his own feet. An Apologetic with the Improved Disarm feat benefits from the effects of the feat for this shout, with the +4 improving his Charisma check. At 9th level, the second shout an Apologetic can make is the Staggering Shout. The Apologetic makes a Charisma check against his opponent’s Dexterity check. If the Apologetic is successful, his shout causes the opponent to stagger and fall prone. An Apologetic with the Improved Trip feat benefits from the effects of the feat for this shout, with the +4 improving his Charisma check and the exception that he does not immediately receive a melee attack as if he had not used his attack for a trip attempt. At 13th level, the next shout an Apologetic can make is the Disorienting Shout. The opponent must make a Will save of DC equal to 10 + ½ Apologetic levels + Charisma modifier. If the Apologetic is successful, the opponent is dazed for 1 round. An Apologetic with the Stunning Fist feat has the option of using this shout by also expending a use of Stunning Fist. As a result, a failed save by the opponent means that he is stunned for the round rather than dazed. Unlike the normal Stunning Fist, the opponent does not have to be damaged by an unarmed strike in order to attempt this shout. At 17th level, the final shout, Sundering Shout, is added to the Apologetic’s repertoire. The Apologetic makes a Charisma check against a target item’s AC (equal to 10 + size modifier + the Dexterity of the carrying or wearing character). If the Apologetic is successful, his shout deals damage to the item equal to the Apologetic’s class levels + 1d8 per point of Charisma bonus. An Apologetic with the Improved Sunder feat benefits from the effects of the feat for this shout, with the +4 improving his Charisma check. Improved Armor Mastery: At 8th level the Apologetic wears his or her medium armor as a second skin and ignores the speed reduction normally imposed on a wearer. Common Ground: At 18th level the Apologetic radiates his neutrality and thereby compels others to act similarly—more accepting. Any person within 20 feet with a relationship of (negative) Acquintance or better toward the Apologetic automatically conforms to the Apologetic Code of Tolerance. Allay Ignorance: At 19th level an Apologetic can literally stop someone else from breaking the Code of Tolerance. If an enemy has ample opportunity to hear out the Apologetic and his party and forgoes the chance or uses their persuasion deceitfully or in a manner to force someone to act as they normally would not the Apologetic can immobilize (as the condition in ToM 140) and silence them for a number of minutes equal to half his charisma modifier rounded down. This is an immediate action that can be overcome with a Will save of DC 10 + ½ Apologetic level + Charisma modifier (+1 for every +2 modifier to Perform, this does not include ability score modifiers). If the Apologetic deems it necessary and feels that the enemy is more of a physical danger, he can choose to only immoblize the target for a number of minutes equal to his charisma modifier. If the Apologetic assesses the enemy as a threat to others freedom because he will command them to act against their will, he can choose to only silence the target for a number of minutes equal to his charisma modifier. More Flavor and Fluff Playing Apologetics As an Apologetic, a great portion of your attention is payed to witnessing. You have a message to deliver to the world which will make it a better place. However, secondly and holding as much importance, is getting that message across without stepping on the toes of all the those who like their world as it is without your message. Apologetics in the World Sample Apologetics Garahk (CR 7) Male Mountain Orc Apologetic 7 NE Medium humanoid Init +2 Senses Darkvision; Listen +1, Spot +6 Languages Orc, Common, Dwarven AC 21, touch 12, flat-footed 19 HP 52 (7 HD) Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +6 Speed 20' (4 squares) Melee "Kindness" +8 (1d12+3+1d6/x3) Ranged Masterwork Bolas +8 (1d4/x2) Base Attack +5; Grapple +7 Combat Gear (5) potions of cure light wounds, potion of cure moderate wounds Abilities Str 15, Dex 14, Con, 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 17 SQ Armor Mastery, Code of Tolerance, Detect Alignment, Disarming Shout, Friendly Approach +2, Lay on Hands, Light Sensitivity, Orc Blood, Shun the Non-believer Prayers Known (+2 Aura Bonus) Imprecate Ambition, Imprecate Cooperation, Imprecate Hostility Feats Combat Intuition, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Sense Motive) (C), Weapon Proficiency (Greataxe and Javelins) (R) Skills Bluff +10, Diplomacy +13, Disguise +11, Escape Artist +7, Knowledge (history) +7, Knowledge (religion) +3, Sense Motive +14, Spot +8 Possessions +2 Glamered Chainmail, Bracers of Armor +2, Merciful Greataxe ("Kindness"), (2) Masterwork Bolas, Cloak of Charisma +2 Darien Barris Male Human Bard 8 Apologetic 10 Evangelist 5 NG Medium humanoid Init +2 Senses Listen +1, Spot +1 Languages Aquan, Common, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 HP 149 Fort +12, Ref +12 Will +29 Speed 30' (6 squares) Melee Unarmed Strike +15 (1d3-1/x2) Base Attack +16 Grapple +15 Combat Gear (4) potions neutralize potion Bard Spells Known (CL 8th): 3 [I](2/day) - Charm Monster, Gaseous Form, Sonic Shield 2 (4/day) - Calm Emotions, Detect thoughts, Delusions of Grandeur, Harmonic Chorus 1 (4/day) - Shock and Awe, Charm Person, Ventriloquism, Joyful Noise 0 (4/day) - Dancing Lights, Thunderclap, Detect Magic, Light Ghost, Sound, Songbird Abilities Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 34 SQ Armor Mastery, Bardic knowledge +10, Bardic music 13/day (Fascinate, Countersong, Inspire courage +4, Inspire competence, Suggestion), Code of Tolerance, Detect Alignment, Disarming Shout, Fast Talk, Friendly Approach +2, Improved Armor Mastery, Lay on Hands, Great Orator (Inspire hope +8, Inflame the righteous [CL 20], Convert the unfaithful), Shun the Non-believer, Skill Mastery (Bluff), Skill Mastery (Diplomacy), Skill Mastery (Sense Motive), Staggering Shout Prayers Known (+3 Aura Bonus) Grant Mercy, Imprecate Grace, Imprecate Hostility, Imprecate Conviction, Grant Serenity Feats Ability Focus (Convert), Ability Focus (Suggestion), Combat Expertise, Disguise Spell, Epic Inspiration, Force of Personality, Improved Disarm, Negotiator, Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (C) Skills Bluff +30, Concentration +18, Diplomacy +43, Forgery +14, Knowledge (religion) +14, Knowledge (nature) +14, Knowledge (history) +14, Knowledge (planes) +14, Knowledge (arcana) +12, Perform (oratory) +38, Sense Motive +29, Speak Language 3, Tumble +18, Use Magic Device +26 Possessions +1 Adamantine Negating Breastplate, Boots of Teleportation, Decanter of Endless Water, Hat of Disguise, Ring of Weaponbreaking, 300k gp ======================================== ======================================== ======= That's my idea, I had help from my good friend bkdubs123, and I borrowed some of the formatting tips from thasis. Let me know what you think, bear in mind this is my first attempt at a class and I want it to be different from the general concepts and preconceptions of characters. I'll even take the smallest editing mistakes. Feel free to playtest, if you're at all interested, ask any questions for clarification. If you have suggestions, I'll consider those, too. Thanks, in advance if anyone compliments or comments!
GobalinKing 10-02-07, 04:32 AM	Shouts: At 9th level the Apologetic has attained a minimal force of personality that begins to grow and grant him new abilities... At 9th level, the second shout... Should the first one be 7th level as in the table above? I wanted to mention that, that confused me. I'll need to sit down with your class for a while more to really give any good commentary. I'm not the best, but I like the class and want to see it thrive.
jradd777 10-02-07, 10:55 AM	Should the first one be 7th level as in the table above? I wanted to mention that, that confused me. I'll need to sit down with your class for a while more to really give any good commentary. I'm not the best, but I like the class and want to see it thrive. Sorry, yeah, that's my fault, typo, didn't even realize I did that, you're right.
ruff0126 10-02-07, 11:09 AM	Why does an indvudual devoted to peace have a Medium BAB when nothing in their flavor text even hints they might take fighting as seriously as a cleric or rogue. Also on grant protection does it give 1 ac per bonus and 1/2 rounded down dr or 1/2 rounded down for both. Is their a max % hp total for the fast healing and if their isn't should their be? All in all very good and flavorful classs I just wish their was some build in options to this class.
jradd777 10-02-07, 01:11 PM	Why does an indvudual devoted to peace have a Medium BAB when nothing in their flavor text even hints they might take fighting as seriously as a cleric or rogue. Also on grant protection does it give 1 ac per bonus and 1/2 rounded down dr or 1/2 rounded down for both. Is their a max % hp total for the fast healing and if their isn't should their be? All in all very good and flavorful classs I just wish their was some build in options to this class. He's not so much devoted to "peace" as an attempt for compromising and cooperation, two good forces could join to fight an evil force, a good and an evil to fight another evil etc. That's the reason I like the Apologetic name better, Bkdubs proposed the Peacemaker title to keep people from assuming Apologetic meant "apologizing" or relating them to wimps. An apologetic is a real "job" in some religious sects; they witness their religion to other people in terms of the other peoples' current beliefs (such as some Christians telling Native Americans years ago that God was the same as their Great Spirit or whatever). They are meant not just to develop less violent relations but strongly protect their causes and beliefs, the medium BAB is so that they aren't crushed by opposing forces that they know WILL be willing to kill first ask questions later. I felt the flavor text did show that they are well stocked defensively, which sometimes means being able to fight fire with fire. Grant Protection is full bonus for AC, 1/2 rounded down for DR only. For your question about the fast healing, there may need to be one, I had gotten the idea from the Dragon Shaman aura which uses a 50%, I think, I'll need to check but I'm not sure if I'll use the same thing, I'll think about it...
jradd777 10-02-07, 05:16 PM	Btw, I'm sorry. I haven't been thanking you guys for posting and asking these great questions and I hope I haven't been coming across as rude. I really do appreciate these comments. As a matter of fact, I don't take things personally, so argue with me a little if you really feel that you have a better way of looking at it because even if I disagree at first, I may rethink things later, I've been known to do that before.
bkdubs123 10-02-07, 05:32 PM	Did you do something to change how the effect of the Resiliency aura works or...? Because as of now it grants only Light Fortification no matter what the Prayer bonus is. If I were you I would make it so allies gain 10% resistance to criticals per point of aura bonus. Also the way in which the Apologetic gets its auras is... unclear at best. Do they get to choose which auras they learn? When do they gain new auras? You say something about Table 1-1 which isn't labelled and then you mention that they are gained in order. Does that mean 1-5? In the Apologetic's class feature table there are numbers in parenthesis that further complicate the matter. At 1st level the Apologetic has (1) after Prayer. Can I assume this means he knows a single prayer? Does it have to be Mercy or can it be any of them? At 5th level the Apologetic has (3) after Prayer. Assuming this means he knows 3 prayers, which prayers does he know? Again at 10th there is a (3) and on subsequent levels there is no Prayer notation. So if the (3) means he knows 3 prayers, how can the Apologetic ever learn the others? Having played a role in the construction of this class I can say that I am rather happy with how it turned out :D. As far as the matter of more choice comes in, I suppose I could deal with some more player choices thrown in throughout the levels. Perhaps if there were more auras to choose from, and more varied shouts for each level with a choice of which one you want to learn. With the inclusion of the exotic proficiencies, perhaps separate trees tailored to "non-violent use" of those, instead of the Medium Armor Mastery trees could be created as well. J'Radd, what are your thoughts?
jradd777 10-02-07, 06:25 PM	Did you do something to change how the effect of the Resiliency aura works or...? Yes, thanks for pointing that out, in our initial discussions we wanted them to only have moderate fortification at HIGH levels, in my notes, this was lost in translation resulting in moderate fort at level 10 possibly, which is WAY too early, ha ha. If I were you I would make it so allies gain 10% resistance to criticals per point of aura bonus. Exactly, that's what I'm fixing it to, thanks again. Also the way in which the Apologetic gets its auras is... unclear at best. Do they get to choose which auras they learn? No, they don't. Sorry, it is unclear, I haven't mastered the tables quite yet, I wanted to list them formatted as Dragon Shaman's appear in PHB II but I couldn't figure out how to get that so I did it in a very confusing way. The number in parenthesis represents the total number of auras known and also the highest aura known. In the text, they are listed sequentially. 1st, 2nd, 3rd... that's the order received. I admit that's also confusing since you receive a pair of known auras at two levels. Again at 10th there is a (3) and on subsequent levels there is no Prayer notation. So if the (3) means he knows 3 prayers, how can the Apologetic ever learn the others? Oops, another typo. That was supposed to be a 5, fixed now. Having played a role in the construction of this class I can say that I am rather happy with how it turned out :D. Me too. As far as the matter of more choice comes in, I suppose I could deal with some more player choices thrown in throughout the levels. Perhaps if there were more auras to choose from, and more varied shouts for each level with a choice of which one you want to learn. With the inclusion of the exotic proficiencies, perhaps separate trees tailored to "non-violent use" of those, instead of the Medium Armor Mastery trees could be created as well. Ha ha, you know you're more one for choice than I am. My motto tends to be, "If you don't like it, choose something different," when it comes to classes. But I think if people are interested in the class but "not quite," as is, because of that lack, we can work to accommodate that to some extent. J'Radd, what are your thoughts? Here's another apology, ha ha, I worked on this class off and on for about three months. To be honest, I actually forgot a couple of details here and there about why's and how's etc. So I'm sorry for all the mistakes. Also, I made the class specifically for myself to play without too much consideration for what other people might want because I, at first, didn't seriously consider sharing it. That being said... On one hand, they are meant to be somewhat a specific kind of character, much like Paladins and Monks. They normally have STRONG religious ties which don't often allow for much deviation from a norm. However, aura selection is definitely something I'll work on (maybe I'll even change my first personal choices for my playtest of this in the way of auras). As far as varying the shouts... I'm not 100% sure about how many more possibilities there are that fit the class and what the shouts are meant to be for the class but I'll look into it. Backwards to what you said about choices thrown in here and there, maybe in lieu of Shouts, I can make up a new ability that also progresses similarly. I'm not sure if I want to cave on the Medium Armor stuff but with enough convincing I might consider a light variant or armorless, with a neat progression (maybe Cha to AC, based on an incessant mocking that distracts the opponent or something, that's just off the top of my head, don't take it too seriously). I do kind of like the idea of specialized non-violent uses of the exotic weapons... non-violent uses of favored deity weapons that grant good bonuses or abilities, like the immobilize or dazing for a round or two, or something... Give me some time, we'll see... Thanks again guys, keep 'em comin'!
jradd777 10-04-07, 02:47 PM	Bump, bump, bumpy wumpy. Apologetic says, "I look good... hey, everybody... come and see how good I look!"
vorpo 10-04-07, 03:17 PM	From a quick view, this class lacks significant fighting abilities while at 3/4 BAB. Instead of 3/4 BAB, why not consider 1/2 BAB and give the apologetic some ranged neutralization abilities. Things like mob control spells etc... just a thought
jradd777 10-04-07, 03:54 PM	From a quick view, this class lacks significant fighting abilities while at 3/4 BAB. Instead of 3/4 BAB, why not consider 1/2 BAB and give the apologetic some ranged neutralization abilities. Things like mob control spells etc... just a thought I notice you said you did a quick glance, so I wonder if you noticed the exotic weapon proficiencies for weapons that trip, disarm, etc. along with the shouts (which, of course, I haven't done yet but I may expand [I suppose I should put in the fact that the shouts are meant to be done from a decent distance... didn't mention that at all did I?]). I already sort of dropped them to 3/4 because I feel they NEED to be able to fight (it's there to be more defensive than offensive, if people play this class right, it's kinda like "I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it," sort of, I've played a lot of medium BAB characters and mine normally swing and swing and can't defend themselves against full meleers at later levels), since their work keeps them in places where they'll have to defend themselves heavily, sometimes even killing people. They lack specific fighting abilities because of the Code, which intends for them not to start fights, and the Charisma based abilities, which are supposed to keep them out of fights in the first place(at least with Intelligent opponents), unfortunately, a wolf in the woods isn't going to care for fancy words that it can't understand anyway. I'm trying to keep out of spells because they already have the auras, which I am definitely working on expanding (I already have 2 new ones) and shun the non-believer is intended on ending up a nice mob control. I appreciate the input, let me know if I addressed them well enough... to some extent I wasn't sure if some of them would have been different if you took a lot of time to look at every detail or what have you, I also invested a lot in the "From a quick view." If that was more a figure of speech and you saw everything and still think there needs to be some big changes, let me know and be as specific as you want, like I said this is my first attempt at a class, suggest a spell, suggest a fighting technique, or what ever you think, I'll either use it, work off of it, or discard it if it delineates too far from the general idea of the class.
vorpo 10-04-07, 04:07 PM	Defensive character doesn't need 3/4 BAB... after all BAB is for Attack. I was thinking along the line of having abilities (spell like or whatever) that make opponents stunned, dazed, slept, prone, etc etc. Doesn't have to be spells. Abilities that make targets easier for other party members to take on rather than taking on the opponents himself.
jradd777 10-04-07, 04:24 PM	Defensive character doesn't need 3/4 BAB... after all BAB is for Attack. Ha ha, I know, I meant someone swings at you for no reason, you have to swing back to "defend" yourself. Still think it's too high tho, huh? Hmm... I was thinking along the line of having abilities (spell like or whatever) that make opponents stunned, dazed, slept, prone, etc etc. Doesn't have to be spells. Abilities that make targets easier for other party members to take on rather than taking on the opponents himself. Right, I will probably look into giving them some things to this effect, tho, they already have a couple that are similar, just not until later levels...
vorpo 10-04-07, 04:48 PM	My intention isn't for you to simply drop to 1/2 BAB but rather a way to balance out abilities that I mentioned.
jradd777 10-04-07, 10:33 PM	My intention isn't for you to simply drop to 1/2 BAB but rather a way to balance out abilities that I mentioned. The more I think back to the intention of the class, I don't want to add abilities that have to do with combat of any form... they have too many as it is because they are meant to talk more than anything else, all their class abilities should be Charisma-based actions and flavored as them being masterful speakers, with secondary weaker abilities being the defensive or based off some idea of compromise. Which brings me back to this: ...this class lacks significant fighting abilities while at 3/4 BAB. Instead of 3/4 BAB, why not consider 1/2 BAB and give the apologetic some ranged neutralization abilities... They lack fighting abilities... so lower BAB... in favor of adding more ranged neutralization abilities than they already have? I would think that in play, this would limit their ability to fight back, if the occasion ever arose. Basically, for the Apologetic to live, every other character would have to protect him if even they happened upon a few creatures in the forest and he would be completely useless with half BAB. All ranged neutralization abilities, as far as I know, invoke AoO (I suppose I could improve some that they already have) but lowering BAB in favor of this would put them at even more of a disadvantage to melee types that are already quite superior fighters to them with the medium BAB. No, I can't currently think of good enough abilities to keep them attractive because too many combat situations come up, where they won't be able to DO anything effective offensively, especially at low levels. Even in situations where the Apologetic is meant to be effective, I'm not sure if he will be yet. I also have to keep in mind that anyone playing this class right has to follow the code or take penalties similar to dishonorable knights. One of which being even more crippling to him as a class than the other. And then to take away BAB, to help them trap, trip, disarm, etc (because I can't think of a logical way to put enemies to sleep without spells or something and that would probably violate code anyway [cause them to act as they normally would not against their will])... There's just too many reasons not to readjust that much at this point. Later, if it makes more sense with some actual set abilities to weigh against each other, I'll see if it's more fitting the class to change the BAB. I want to weigh some of the other options presented before that, however, because changing BAB and giving them more neutralization might change the nature of the class overall, and tempt me to change the name, description, background etc. What you suggest makes them sound more like a base justicar in my mind, at the moment, but I may be biased. (Probably am)
vorpo 10-05-07, 02:54 PM	Well, the flavor of this class to me has always been a class that doesn't fight directly. So dropping to 1/2 BAB isn't much of a deal. Seriously, at lvl 10, the difference in chance to hit between a 1/2 BAB and 3/4 BAB is only 10%. Given it's not excelling in melee anyway. (10% will make more difference for melee oriented chars, that's what they do). I still prefer abilities that neutralize targets than just having the apologetic doing melee himself. I understand there are situations when apologetic must engage in melee. But the same situation holds true to mages and they don't get 3/4 BAB do they? Mages' spells also provokes AoOs. So your concept as he having to fight back at 3/4 BAB is a bit weird when the flavor is to avoid combat whenever possible. Abilities that neutralizes targets but provoking AoO is perfectly suited for the flavor that this class is giving me the impression of.
bkdubs123 10-05-07, 05:24 PM	I don't think Jradd wants the apologetic to be a cleric/wizard with a smaller spell list. The Apologetic is an advocate of peace, neutrality, and conflict resolution, but also a very practical one. When the Apologetic reasons that violence is the only answer then he will take up his ceremonial weapons (or others) and bring his foes down. If Jradd took the BAB down to 1/2 he would certainly need to give the class something to compensate through the levels. Spells are the only thing that come to mind, something I've already said I'm fairly certain he does not want to add. If you have any suggestions on how exactly to impliment these "abilities that neutralize targets" without creating spells per day, or spell-like abilities per encounter than by all means let us hear them.
vorpo 10-05-07, 05:32 PM	Do EX or SU provoke AoOs?
jradd777 10-05-07, 07:49 PM	I don't think Jradd wants the apologetic to be a cleric/wizard with a smaller spell list. The Apologetic is an advocate of peace, neutrality, and conflict resolution, but also a very practical one. When the Apologetic reasons that violence is the only answer then he will take up his ceremonial weapons (or others) and bring his foes down. If Jradd took the BAB down to 1/2 he would certainly need to give the class something to compensate through the levels. Spells are the only thing that come to mind, something I've already said I'm fairly certain he does not want to add. If you have any suggestions on how exactly to impliment these "abilities that neutralize targets" without creating spells per day, or spell-like abilities per encounter than by all means let us hear them. Thank you Bkdubs, you have the advantage of having had thorough discussions with me previously as to the intended flavor and overall role of this class and you hit the nail on the head.
jradd777 10-05-07, 08:01 PM	Do EX or SU provoke AoOs? I'd have to do some research... but off the top of my head, I'd have to guess that there are some that do and some that don't. Warlock DR, doesn't but I think imbue item would and they are both Su. Deceive Item is Ex and it probably does, I'm sure it depends more on the action that the Ex or Su implies. Being Ex or Su doesn't inherently exempt from AoO, as far as I can tell. Edit: I've been told from a reliable source that generally Supernatural abilities do not provoke AoO unless they specify that they still do or something related to the effect necessarily provokes while Extraordinary abilities generally depend on the effect only as to whether or not they provoke.
Leress 10-08-07, 12:35 AM	Alignment: LN, NG, N, NE, CN. Apologetics always display some amount of neutrality as a rule of their way of life. So you can just write this as "any neutral" Hit Die: d8. Okay Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Ref Will Class Features 1. +0 +2 +0 +2 Code of Tolerance, Prayer +1 (1) 2. +1 +3 +0 +3 Lay on Hands 3. +2 +3 +1 +3 Shun the Non-Believer 4. +3 +4 +1 +4 Armor Mastery (Medium) 5. +3 +4 +1 +4 Prayer +2 (3) 6. +4 +5 +2 +5 Friendly Approach (+2), Detect Disposition 7. +5 +5 +2 +5 Shout (Disarming) 8. +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Improved Armor Mastery (Medium) 9. +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Shout (Staggering) 10. +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Prayer +2 (5) 11. +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Friendly Approach (+3) 12. +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Detect Disposition (Other) 13. +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Shout (Disorienting) 14. +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Friendly Approach (Above the Din) 15. +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Prayer +4 16. +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Friendly Approach (+4) 17. +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Shout (Sundering) 18. +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Common Ground 19. +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Allay Ignorance 20. +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Prayer +5, Dual Aura Okay...let's look closer. Class Skills The Apologetic class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (oratory) (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis). See Chapter 4 in the Core Rulebook 1 for skill descriptions. Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at each additional Level: 4 + Int modifier you should probably add the skills Craft, Profession since all the other class get those skill, and have Speak language as a class since you will be talking to creatures that don't know common. Class Features All of the following are class features of the Apologetic. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An Apologetic is proficient with simple weapons, medium armor and with shields (except tower shields). An Apologetic also has proficiency with a the exotic weapons whip and bolas. Apologetics that worship a deity are also proficient with their deity’s favored weapon. Okay...you should add the sap and net onto the weapons list since the sap deals non lethal damage and the net is for entangling. Code of Tolerance: The Apologetic cannot help but to live his or her life by a policy devoted to accepting, to an extent, every belief that is different from his or her own. They hope to better the world by showing others that cooperation and understanding are better than extremism and fanaticism. The Code of Tolerance focuses on giving others a chance. If an Apologetic has ample opportunity to talk their way out of a fight and forgoes the chance, giving in to violence, they take a -2 penalty to attack rolls and saves for the rest of the day. The Apologetic pulls punches, hesitates, and can’t keep their mind clear knowing that they have been hypocritical and sullied the name of that for which they stand. An Apologetic will not use their persuasion deceitfully or in a manner to force someone to act as they normally would not. An Apologetic means to gently gain acceptance and understanding from others, not coerce them into mindless obedience. An Apologetic that attempts to willfully force someone to forsake their previous ideas loses some conviction in their own purpose and thereby takes a -2 penalty to all Charisma-based checks for the rest of the day. Okay Prayer: The Apologetic’s first ability is that of prayer. His softly spoken mutterings in the day’s first light can later invoke magical auras, which benefit the Apologetic and his allies. Praying is done at the beginning of the day. An Apologetic recites from memory every prayer he knows and later can invoke a corresponding aura as a swift action. The aura is in effect unless the Apologetic uses a free action to dismiss it or invokes a new aura. The prayers’ auras are continual and therefore can be in effect at the start of an encounter even before the first turn is taken. Unless otherwise noted, the prayer affects all allies within 30 feet (including the Apologetic) with line of effect to the Apologetic. The prayer is dismissed if the Apologetic becomes unconscious or is slain but otherwise remains in effect if the Apologetic is unable to act. I will take these one at a time 1st Grant Mercy: +2 non-lethal damage/Apologetic’s aura bonus Okay 2nd Grant Grace: + Apologetic’s aura bonus to select skill checks (Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal) Handle Animal is not a class skill for this class, so this bonus for that skill isn't really helpful. 3rd Grant Protection: +1 insight AC per point of Aura bonus and +DR/-- equal to half Aura bonus rounded down The DR that the class gets doesn't help at all. It should equal the aura bonus as well, yes I know that the barbarian will get a major DR boost. Enemies will still do a bucket of damage. 4th Grant Vigor: Fast healing equal to the Apologetic’s aura bonus, affects only characters at or below their full normal hit points Okay 5th Grant Resiliency: 10% Fortification per point of Aura bonus Okay The Apologetic gains his auras in the above order attaining a total number of auras at the levels as given in the table above Level 1, Level 5, and Level 10. The Apologetic only ever learns 5 prayers from which he can receive an aura. At 20th level the Apologetic can activate two of these auras simultaneously. When the Apologetic wishes to activate a new aura the previous auras are dismissed in the order that they were activated. The dual aura should come at 15th since there is a gap in the progress of the prayers Lay on Hands: As paladin. Okay Shun the Non-believer: If the Apologetic is able to persuade a majority of his or her enemies into compromise or non-violence, he or she gains a +1 circumstance bonus per persuaded enemy to sway the remainder of opponents. This bonus cannot exceed +10. Okay Armor Mastery: Medium armor itself represents a kind of compromise between highest possible defense and need for maneuverability. At 4th Level the Apologetic’s affinity for medium armor increases, decreasing armor check penalty by 2 points. Okay Friendly Approach: The Apologetic learns important body language so that he or she may enter a situation in a non-threatening manner to promote greater trust from his or her audience. The Apologetic hold their weapon in a submissive manner, or hands open and outstretched if unarmed, giving him or her a +2 bonus to Charisma-based checks for a number of rounds equal to Apologetic level. This bonus increases by 1 every five Apologetic levels to a maximum of +4 at 16th level. If the Apologetic’s pleas for compromise are unsuccessful after the friendly approach, opponents are still considered flat-footed for the first round of combat. [/quote] Having your arms outstretched should not make you better a using a scroll. Above the Din – At 14th level, in the heat of battle the Apologetic can stop fighting, hold his weapon in a non-threatening manner, or hands open and outstretched if unarmed, and attempt to stop the fighting with his charismatic speaking. the way this is worded, it does nothing. Detect Disposition: The Apologetic’s practice in reading people at a glance to better understand or persuade them eventually allows them to detect the dispositions of those around him or her. At 5th level and higher, an Apologetic can make a Sense Motive check against the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Charisma bonus [if any]). If successful the Apologetic knows the target’s disposition toward himself or herself. At 10th level and higher, the Apologetic can tell how another character may react to one of his allies in the same manner. The check should be 1d20+CR+target's Charisma since hitdice can really vary in each CR. Shouts: At 7th level the Apologetic has attained a minimal force of personality that begins to grow and grant him new abilities. Once per encounter, the Apologetic can make a shout at his opponent which increases in capabilities as his force of personality grows. The first shout an Apologetic can command is the Disarming Shout. The Apologetic makes a Charisma check against his opponent’s Dexterity check. If the Apologetic is successful, his shout causes the opponent to drop his weapon at his own feet. At 9th level, the second shout an Apologetic can make is the Staggering Shout. The Apologetic makes a Charisma check against his opponent’s Dexterity check. If the Apologetic is successful, his shout causes the opponent to stagger and fall prone. At 13th level, the next shout an Apologetic can make is the Disorienting Shout. The opponent must makes a Will save of DC equal to 10 + ½ Apologetic levels + Charisma modifier. If the Apologetic is successful, the opponent is dazed for 1 round. At 17th level, the final shout, Sundering Shout, is added to the Apologetic’s repertoire. The Apologetic makes a Charisma check against a target item’s AC (equal to 10 + size modifier + the Dexterity of the carrying or wearing character). If the Apologetic is successful, his shout deals damage to the item equal to the Apologetic’s class levels + 1d8 per point of Charisma bonus. Okay I will give these a closer critique after playtesting Improved Armor Mastery: At 8th level the Apologetic wears his or her medium armor as a second skin and ignores the speed reduction normally imposed on a wearer. Common Ground: At 18th level the Apologetic radiates his neutrality and thereby compels others to act similarly—more accepting. Any person within 20 feet with a disposition of indifferent or better toward the Apologetic automatically conforms to the Apologetic Code of Tolerance. [/quote] Wait, doesn't that break the code of tolerance by doing that? Allay Ignorance: At 19th level an Apologetic with at least 20 ranks in Perform (oratory) can literally stop someone else from breaking the Code of Tolerance. If an enemy has ample opportunity to hear out the Apologetic and his party and forgoes the chance or uses their persuasion deceitfully or in a manner to force someone to act as they normally would not the Apologetic can immobilize (as the condition in ToM 140) and silence them for a number of minutes equal to half his charisma modifier rounded down. This is an immediate action that can be overcome with a Will save of DC 10 + ½ Apologetic level + Charisma modifier (+1 for every +2 modifier to Perform). If the Apologetic deems it necessary and feels that the enemy is more of a physical danger, he can choose to only immoblize the target for a number of minutes equal to his charisma modifier. If the Apologetic assesses the enemy as a threat to others freedom because he will command them to act against their will, he can choose to only silence the target for a number of minutes equal to his charisma modifier. Okay, this seems to break the Code of Tolerance too. Also giving the save a +1/+2 points in perform can really be abused since it is not based off of ranks and it is really easy to make this reach ridiculously high DCs. That's my idea, I had help from my good friend bkdubs123, and I borrowed some of the formatting tips from thasis. Let me know what you think, bear in mind this is my first attempt at a class and I want it to be different from the general concepts and preconceptions of characters. I'll even take the smallest editing mistakes. Feel free to playtest, if you're at all interested, ask any questions for clarification. If you have suggestions, I'll consider those, too. Thanks, in advance if anyone compliments or comments! You probably add more auras so they can choose them. Maybe add some spell like abilities that allow for better combat resolution (like calm emotions and the like) I will give this a playtest and see how it fairs.
bkdubs123 10-08-07, 01:25 AM	You actually forgot to stipulate for Allay Ignorance the +1 per +2modifier to perform must be from noncharisma sources. @Leress, yes it can be boosted rather high, but its better than being actually based on ranks or a skill check is it not? Using items, item familiars and other means are easy ways to break ANYTHING that has to do with skills, but that doesn't mean the DM has to allow it. Alot of skill based abilities and skill resolution rules are painfully unbalanced and/or broken (in the "not-good" way) just with Core rules. I was worried that some of the "add-on" abilities we were coming up with might actually break the Code of Tolerance in order to protect it. That's not good. You should have another look at the Code of Tolerance and possibly re-work it so that the Shouts, Aura, and Allay Ignorance don't actually penalize you for promoting and protecting tolerance.
Leress 10-08-07, 02:14 AM	You actually forgot to stipulate for Allay Ignorance the +1 per +2modifier to perform must be from noncharisma sources. that doesn't make much sense since perform is a charisma skill, and most bonuses are not charisma bonuses. @Leress, yes it can be boosted rather high, but its better than being actually based on ranks or a skill check is it not? Using items, item familiars and other means are easy ways to break ANYTHING that has to do with skills, but that doesn't mean the DM has to allow it. Alot of skill based abilities and skill resolution rules are painfully unbalanced and/or broken (in the "not-good" way) just with Core rules. well yes that can happen, the thing is the DC does use the Skill and then some. Also if you are going for diplomacy than you wouldn't even use this ability at all. I was worried that some of the "add-on" abilities we were coming up with might actually break the Code of Tolerance in order to protect it. That's not good. You should have another look at the Code of Tolerance and possibly re-work it so that the Shouts, Aura, and Allay Ignorance don't actually penalize you for promoting and protecting tolerance. yeah since it forces an opponent to act a certain way.
bkdubs123 10-08-07, 03:44 AM	Originally Posted by bkdubs123 You actually forgot to stipulate for Allay Ignorance the +1 per +2modifier to perform must be from noncharisma sources. Originally Posted by Leress that doesn't make much sense since perform is a charisma skill, and most bonuses are not charisma bonuses. Hm? I meant that the save is supposed to be 10 + 1/2 Apologetic Levels + Cha modifier +1 per +2 nonability modifier to Perform (oratory). Basically, yes, it would count for item bonuses to Perform and also for untyped class bonuses and such things, as well as Skill Focus, etc. In every game I've ever played and DM'd item bonuses to skills are pretty close to outlawed and Item Familiars certainly always are. Any sensible DM needs to have a hard look at how skills work in his or her game and make any house rules that are necessary. So many skills are badly ruled in 3.X.... *shakes head*
jradd777 10-09-07, 12:25 AM	you should probably add the skills Craft, Profession since all the other class get those skill, and have Speak language as a class since you will be talking to creatures that don't know common. That's probably a good idea, I'll look into that. Okay...you should add the sap and net onto the weapons list since the sap deals non lethal damage and the net is for entangling. That's true but I was nervous about giving too many exotic weapon proficiencies, so they do non-lethal, I don't necessarily want to give them everything that is non-lethal but I might reconsider adding a couple more. Handle Animal is not a class skill for this class, so this bonus for that skill isn't really helpful. I put it in because it is Cha-based and I wanted to give it in case the player wanted to multi-class with a class where it would be helpful, plus, if he is adventuring with a party that includes any class that does have it as a class skill, it is very helpful to them. The DR that the class gets doesn't help at all. It should equal the aura bonus as well, yes I know that the barbarian will get a major DR boost. Enemies will still do a bucket of damage. I didn't want to give AC and DR simultaneously and not gimp one of them because no other auras give that much at once for other classes. The dual aura should come at 15th since there is a gap in the progress of the prayers You're right, there is a break, but I felt that Dual-Aura was a little too good at 15th originally, I might compromise a little higher than 15th or if there are enough good reasons to move it down that low, I might, but overall I'm less worried about continuing a progression than giving too much power too soon. Concerning Friendly Approach: Having your arms outstretched should not make you better a using a scroll. the way this is worded, it does nothing. You have to read closely, maybe my wording is just not that clear (although everyone else seems to understand). This has nothing to do with reading a scroll. Above the Din allows for a Friendly Approach in battle, rather than only at the start of an encounter where battle has not yet begun. The check should be 1d20+CR+target's Charisma since hitdice can really vary in each CR. I'll look into this... Concerning Common Ground: At 18th level the Apologetic radiates his neutrality and thereby compels others to act similarly—more accepting. Any person within 20 feet with a disposition of indifferent or better toward the Apologetic automatically conforms to the Apologetic Code of Tolerance. Wait, doesn't that break the code of tolerance by doing that? First an announcement (BKdubs you too, think about it): So far as I can see, the Code isn't necessarily automatically broken by any of the abilities addressed previously or following this message. Check yourself and make sure that you are not just ONLY thinking of specific situations that would. No, the code is bad enough without making it more strict, for one. An apologetic has a great charismatic power but mostly just has to be responsible. Unfortunately, think of the fictional situation I used for flavor text under the picture. They get into some bad spots here and there where they walk up calmly and nicely to their fiercest enemies and cannot throw the first punch, cannot just tell them to do something they obviously wouldn't want to do. Secondly, because the Apologetic technically doesn't do it willingly. By this point, his force of charisma (possibly the aura) is so strong it makes others want to follow the code (They want it willingly, ha ha), almost as if they thought of it themselves. He's the kind of person that makes you feel like your parents are watching you, or your god, or the police, or your true love, or whatever it would take to make you act more tolerant. He's the minority standing in the room, keeping you from feeling comfortable enough to tell that racist joke, just because he's there, maybe he wouldn't even be offended. In his case, he's so tolerant, so accepting, others can't stand to be prejudiced, intolerant, or ignorant in his presence. Okay, this seems to break the Code of Tolerance too. Again, no it doesn't, the Code states that they are not allowed to do certain things if they have a chance to act tolerantly first. If someone does something which might ruin any chance of compromise (like some necromancer or evil cleric straight up trying to zap someone dead) the Apologetic can spring into action, almost pre-emptively (in part, because he is so in touch with his code now, and in part, because he still has given the opponent a chance not to, this is a response to someone else already having broken the code) to end this atrocity against his code before it happens. This would, of course, not be useable in situations where it breaks the code (like a sorcerer simply trying to go invisible). You're right, the Apologetic must attempt to stick to the code first, he can't frivolously just use this ability against anything. Come on... seriously... ha ha, just kidding, I'm sure you get the point by now. Also giving the save a +1/+2 points in perform can really be abused since it is not based off of ranks and it is really easy to make this reach ridiculously high DCs. I'm not an expert in this matter, I'll research etc. and see what I want to do about it. I may refer directly to BKdub's opinion on this matter. You probably add more auras so they can choose them. Maybe add some spell like abilities that allow for better combat resolution (like calm emotions and the like) I will give this a playtest and see how it fairs. I plan to add more auras (I have a couple made up, I may split Grant Protection into two, to help solve two problems at once, I hope to have at least two to choose from of each level). I want to add some spell-like abilities but most of those actually do seem to only break the code and I didn't want to give anything too good yet. Thanks for playtesting, if you really feel good about your own opinions or think of a great spell-like ability etc, for this feel free to use it and report that back. Even if it's a little different from my original, I can even see how well-founded your ideas are possibly and incorporate them directly, as long as you keep the general flavor and most of the key originals (I am considering a redo of the shouts, conversion or something so... keep that in mind, I guess)
vorpo 10-09-07, 12:28 AM	Originally Posted by Leress you should probably add the skills Craft, Profession since all the other class get those skill, and have Speak language as a class since you will be talking to creatures that don't know common. Hmm. Profession is NOT on every class's skill list. Only Craft is.
jradd777 10-09-07, 12:39 AM	Hmm. Profession is NOT on every class's skill list. Only Craft is. Ahh, that's true, I was toying with the idea of leaving profession off, anyway, since I don't see Apologetics as having too much time for an actual occupation... this is kinda a life work type thing, really. They have to be very committed. Still, thinking about Craft... but it's probably going on there...
vorpo 10-09-07, 12:42 AM	Ahh, that's true, I was toying with the idea of leaving profession off, anyway, since I don't see Apologetics as having too much time for an actual occupation... this is kinda a life work type thing, really. They have to be very committed. Think of craft more as a hobby of sorts... People do get strange hobbies like making traps or poisons... hmm
Leress 10-09-07, 03:53 PM	Hmm. Profession is NOT on every class's skill list. Only Craft is. My mistake.
jradd777 10-12-07, 01:24 AM	Okay: Craft has been added as a class skill A couple new aura choices have been added, more to come Leaving Grant Protection as-is for now Dual-Aura is now at 16th level, I like that progression pattern overall, it's cool I think I'll add between 1 and 3 spell-like abilities or something, not sure exactly which way to go with that just yet... I'm not adding more weapons at this point... maybe I'll change my mind, I still don't want to give them too many exotic weapon proficiencies I think those are all the changes/decisions at this point, please keep posting... Let me know what you guys think of the new auras...
jradd777 10-13-07, 11:21 PM	I've added another dimension of options to the auras in an aspect of the class that I've otherwise neglected until now (because I'm always subconsciously focused on good characters)... "Evilish" prayer auras... These were kind of on the fly but I think it adds an evil-er quality for those that want a bit of that. A couple may need to be fleshed out a little more but as-is gimme a little judgment, bearing in mind they're still "in the works" a bit. Also, I'm working on one more class ability tentatively named Enemy of My Enemy or Keep Your Friends Close, which is a special gather information check, similar to Bardic Knowledge, where the Apologetic can "remember" information that he's learned from his travels on how to combat particular enemies if they get hostile, or communicate better with them if he means to use diplomacy, etc. It would only provide small bonuses, probably, not completely sure yet. Anyway, let me know...
Knitsuge 10-18-07, 02:16 AM	I probably really shouldn't have even clicked here, as I am just too tired and too busy to read it all, but the name of the class in your sig really caught my eye. I actually think you should drop the "Peacemaker" name for the very reason someone suggested it. It makes the guy sound like a bit of a wimp. MOST D&D players are fairly well educated and will know that Apologetics means "defending one's beliefs." If you want to add an aka, I would suggest "diplomat." It indicates one that usually tries to negotiate peace, but may try to negotiate alliances against a common foe, as well. It may take a few days, but I will sit down later and really look through this class and give you my thoughts. I can tell you that I think the idea is a very good one, and could be fun to play. My biggest concern is how well would it work in a party with a barbarian, rogue, and/or fighter?
bkdubs123 10-18-07, 02:21 AM	Y'know Jradd it probably is about that time to get rid of that Peacemaker AKA. Apparently I was wrong in suggesting it. As far as your concern goes for how well it would "work" in a party with a barbarian, rogue and fighter I'm going to assume that you are concerned because they are generally combat focused classes. I suppose the roles are clashing with a Barbarian say and an Apologetic, but - and this is just sort of a vent - when did a rogue become focused on "zomgz I can do 300d6 sneak attack damage with a single attack!!!"? Oh well. Anyway, the game is about roleplaying. A party with an apologetic better get used to the fact that they will get into less fights. OR a DM could simply make it so that some fights are, "non-negotiable" so to speak.
Knitsuge 10-18-07, 02:57 AM	Y'know Jradd it probably is about that time to get rid of that Peacemaker AKA. Apparently I was wrong in suggesting it. As far as your concern goes for how well it would "work" in a party with a barbarian, rogue and fighter I'm going to assume that you are concerned because they are generally combat focused classes. I suppose the roles are clashing with a Barbarian say and an Apologetic, but - and this is just sort of a vent - when did a rogue become focused on "zomgz I can do 300d6 sneak attack damage with a single attack!!!"? Oh well. Anyway, the game is about roleplaying. A party with an apologetic better get used to the fact that they will get into less fights. OR a DM could simply make it so that some fights are, "non-negotiable" so to speak. Actually, I agree with you completely concerning the rogue. I just thought someone who is known for being a bit "sneaky" might not make the best companion for someone who is trying to negotiate treaties, etc. I guess my biggest concern (just from a glance, mind you) is that while I am all in favor of a class that helps promote more roll playing and less dice rolling (well, okay, more roll playing. I love rolling dice!), I worry about that roll playing this class might alienate about half of the classes in the game. Of course, I guess they could always be your brute squad for when negotiations go awry, but then that makes one character MUCH more central to the story, and actually seems to discourage roll playing instead of encouraging it. I'm just wondering if you've really thought about that, and what this class's roll would be in an adventuring party, not just his roll in a campaign.
jradd777 10-18-07, 11:31 PM	I just thought someone who is known for being a bit "sneaky" might not make the best companion for someone who is trying to negotiate treaties, etc. I guess my biggest concern (just from a glance, mind you) is that while I am all in favor of a class that helps promote more roll playing and less dice rolling (well, okay, more roll playing. I love rolling dice!), I worry about that roll playing this class might alienate about half of the classes in the game. Of course, I guess they could always be your brute squad for when negotiations go awry, but then that makes one character MUCH more central to the story, and actually seems to discourage roll playing instead of encouraging it. I'm just wondering if you've really thought about that, and what this class's roll would be in an adventuring party, not just his roll in a campaign. Thanks, those are all good thoughts and I know I don't go into a lot of detail, within the class, to explain and explore all those possible "party role" facets. I have thought about all that, believe me (as I've said in other comments, I've worked on this class on and off for about three or four months now, only posting for about the last month of work), which is also why I understand your concern. The way I see it, it all depends on how you look at the class... I have considered doing a "PHB II" type version of this class which would outline possible... archetypes, I suppose, of the class (to give people a better idea of the wide array of character types [party roles] that, at least, I had in mind while creating the concept). Basically, the Apologetic tends to be the "face" of the group, as a given. His eloquence and experience dealing in alien situations makes him as valuable as a local guide in any area. There are plenty of different ways he could go. I'll look into trying to write up a "PHB II" version to better explain what I mean. To directly address previous comments: Looking at compatibility in combat with other classes, I'll have to playtest to be sure but maybe he could be a fairly powerful force in battle, not in damage, but by incapacitating opponents (tripping, disarming, etc). A barbarian loves to kick someone when they're down, not to mention prone opponents lose their dex to AC which the rogue likes too! In the non-combat situations, where the Apologetic really shines, the "sneaky" rogue can team-up with the Apologetic well (Apologetics don't have to be good), doing some "espionage" while the Apologetic acts as a "diversion." I hope this answered your questions, let me know if not.
Leress 10-19-07, 12:28 AM	To directly address previous comments: Looking at compatibility in combat with other classes, I'll have to playtest to be sure but maybe he could be a fairly powerful force in battle, not in damage, but by incapacitating opponents (tripping, disarming, etc). A barbarian loves to kick someone when they're down, not to mention prone opponents lose their dex to AC which the rogue likes too! In the non-combat situations, where the Apologetic really shines, the "sneaky" rogue can team-up with the Apologetic well (Apologetics don't have to be good), doing some "espionage" while the Apologetic acts as a "diversion." I hope this answered your questions, let me know if not. Prone doesn't make the person lose their dex modifier so you can't sneak attack The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Now I have finished my playtest of this class... The conditions are the Peacemaker has to make peace... Sample character Friedens Stifter Build: Apologetic 10 Hp: 58 AC: 23 [25](touch 14[16], flat 21[23]) Initi: +6 Saves: Fort 11, Ref 8, Will 10 Attack: +8/+3 melee +2 morningstar 1d8+1, +9/+4 general ranged Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Negotiator Stats: (used Elite Array) Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 16 Items:+2 Morningstar, +3 Breastplate +3 heavy wooden shield, Ring of Protection +2, Cloak of Resistance +3, Amulet of Natural armor +1, Hat of Disguise, club, mwk light crossbow, 100 bolts. Class Features: Lay on Hands (30 hp), Auras[5(+2), Grant Mercy,Grant Grace,Grant Protection,Grant Vigor,Grant Resiliency] Shun the non Believer, Improved armor mastery, Friendly approach, Detect Disposition, Shouts of Disarming, and Staggering The gauntlet EL 10 A hallway full of traps a fire giant a young blue dragon a Bebilth a Vrock 2 Mind Flayers 2 Remorhaze 6 trolls Horde (12) shadows Now onto battle A room full of traps: Nothing much you can do, use your auras...that's about it. Probable loss. A Fire giant: You have spot and Initiative, you see him use a shout and most likely win, use diplomacy and have a the battle won. Certain Victory A young Blue dragon:You shout if it flies and it falls. Just use Diplomancy and you win. Certain Victory A Bebilith: It all depends on who get initiative. Draw A Vrock: same as bebilith except you more likely will get initiative. Probable win 2 Mind Flayers: If you can survive mind blast you should be okay. Draw. 2 Remorhaze: they attack first, bite...grapple...burn...die. Definite loss 6 Trolls: If you can convince them but not fast enough. Probable Loss Horde (12) shadows: The can't hit unless they roll a natural 20. You can slap one with Lay on hands but it will only take one out. Draw. Scorecard Almost Certain Victory: 2 Probable Victory: 1 Even Match: 3 Probable Loss: 2 Definite Loss: 1 While this is a very good score, it really doesn't say how good this class really is, since the only real ability this class has is Diplomacy. This class can't really do anything beside just use diplomacy. A class that pretty much revolves around the most broken skill in the game is a very good class. This class some very nice ideas, but class is really just a diplomancer. So, we've all seen the same characters over and over again. They fight, they cast, they sneak, they sing and most of all these actions are focused on doing them in combat. The role-playing aspect of D&D has often seemed lost or segregated amidst the d20 rolls for swords and spells in a heated, bloody struggle. Now for something... a little different... Strangely enough this is even less to do with role-playing and actually segregates it more than most classes. It is a little different but is really just a one skill pony.
jradd777 10-19-07, 12:59 AM	First of all, thank you for trying it out and playtesting, I appreciate the time and effort that you put into it to help me develop/refine this class. Disclaimer: Unfortunately, I put the "aka Peacemaker" in as a last second thought. It is only one possible outlook for an Apologetic to take on. People are misunderstanding and using this as if it is the ONLY purpose of the class. He can be, and is meant to be, MUCH more than just a "treaty maker". Prone doesn't make the person lose their dex modifier so you can't sneak attack You're right, I accidentally looked at pinned on the table I was referring to in 3.5, my mistake (it was directly above it). Strangely enough this is even less to do with role-playing and actually segregates it more than most classes. It is a little different but is really just a one skill pony. In combat, you swing your sword or cast your spell and only little bits of "I do this" words and miming a swing or somatic components are pretty much the whole of role-playing. When a character is actually interacting in a social manner with NPC's or PC's, I would think there would be much more abundant use and space to fill with real, rich role-playing. At least, that's what I was thinking and trying to get at. In that light, the Apologetic is meant for that kind of interaction, not the normal dungeon with demons, devils, and vermin etc., which should, in turn, increase role-playing, because you are interacting with opponents that interact back. When those methods don't work, the Apologetic is supposed to be ready to fall back on other methods. However, it is just those situations that you outlined in the Gauntlet that I thought balanced out his "one skill pony"-ness (+ now use of whip to disarm/trip or bolas etc.), which is very powerful for those situations (not just peacemaking, necessarily). If I give him things to do where he never has to rely on his party for backup or help, it'd be completely broken. Basically, the Gauntlet does not exactly meet content validity for playtesting the Apologetic's abilities (for the Apologetic it is the equivalent of calling a math test an IQ test).
jradd777 10-19-07, 02:18 AM	While this is a very good score, it really doesn't say how good this class really is, since the only real ability this class has is Diplomacy. This class can't really do anything beside just use diplomacy. A class that pretty much revolves around the most broken skill in the game is a very good class. This is mostly a VERY good point, I'm adding this link (---> Diplomacy (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html)) to the class up there as a suggested alternative to the present Diplomacy system especially when using the Apologetic class. And again, thanks for the suggestions etc. I keep realizing that I'm not thanking people enough for their contributions. So I'll also add a thanks for Knitsuge, Bkdubs, vorpo, ruff0126, and GobalinKing for posting, questions and suggestions.
Leress 10-19-07, 04:08 AM	Disclaimer: Unfortunately, I put the "aka Peacemaker" in as a last second thought. It is only one possible outlook for an Apologetic to take on. People are misunderstanding and using this as if it is the ONLY purpose of the class. He can be, and is meant to be, MUCH more than just a "treaty maker". Well the whole Code of Tolerance pretty much lends itself towards being a peace keeper. In combat, you swing your sword or cast your spell and only little bits of "I do this" words and miming a swing or somatic components are pretty much the whole of role-playing. When a character is actually interacting in a social manner with NPC's or PC's, I would think there would be much more abundant use and space to fill with real, rich role-playing. At least, that's what I was thinking and trying to get at. You know that is not the whole of role-playing. The thing is that you are using mechanics to do non-mechanical things. This could be easily solved with a house rule. The role playing is only going be as rich as the person doing it not the class. In that light, the Apologetic is meant for that kind of interaction, not the normal dungeon with demons, devils, and vermin etc., which should, in turn, increase role-playing, because you are interacting with opponents that interact back. When those methods don't work, the Apologetic is supposed to be ready to fall back on other methods. However, it is just those situations that you outlined in the Gauntlet that I thought balanced out his "one skill pony"-ness (+ now use of whip to disarm/trip or bolas etc.), which is very powerful for those situations (not just peacemaking, necessarily). If I give him things to do where he never has to rely on his party for backup or help, it'd be completely broken. Basically, the Gauntlet does not exactly meet content validity for playtesting the Apologetic's abilities (for the Apologetic it is the equivalent of calling a math test an IQ test). [/quote] Well, I was comparing to things that are faced in the standard dnd game. For the gauntlet the class doesn't have to win all of the challenges just 65% of them. If it meets that then it is a fairly balanced class. The first thing that one would do is stop the fight from ever happening. This class goes from completely owning the conflict to doing pretty much nothing in a very erratic pendulum. Making things prone or dropping weapon only works for some of the opponents you may face. Most of the creatures in that Gauntlet can be persuaded, but if you had to goto your backup plans of using bolas or whips than you would most likely fail and it only gets worse at higher levels. This class isn't versatile and is very narrowly focused. A bard or rogue can just as easily be an Apologetic and still have other abilities to spare. If this class is narrowly focused than it has be very awesome at doing it. Shoving non-mechanical role playing things into a class won't really make a very good class.
jradd777 10-19-07, 10:00 PM	Well the whole Code of Tolerance pretty much lends itself towards being a peace keeper. The Code of Tolerance lends itself mostly toward not being the first to swing a weapon, which is far from implying only "keeping peace." That's almost to the point of saying that a Knight's Code lends itself toward ahimsa. You know that is not the whole of role-playing. The thing is that you are using mechanics to do non-mechanical things. This could be easily solved with a house rule. The role playing is only going be as rich as the person doing it not the class. I completely realize this; you're right. What this class is meant to do is encourage situations in which more role-playing and less dice rolling occurs, and discourage those that only jump from fight to fight. It's just meant to be push into the more role-playing direction, rather than (IMO the very boring) "monster... fight, monster... fight..." Well, I was comparing to things that are faced in the standard dnd game. For the gauntlet the class doesn't have to win all of the challenges just 65% of them. If it meets that then it is a fairly balanced class. The first thing that one would do is stop the fight from ever happening. This class goes from completely owning the conflict to doing pretty much nothing in a very erratic pendulum. That's especially true at low levels and that's what I was saying. The Gauntlet is overall a great measure of a standard D&D game but the Apologetic is meant for a non-standard D&D game, his strong points are meant to be in those situations we don't see as much. That's what I meant when I said that role-paying seems to be lost in all these combat-heavy, standard D&D games. Playing a campaign with an Apologetic changes the entire manner in which a story plays out. Without actually putting a storyline to a playtest of this class, you can never get the justice I foresee it deserving because situations that never come up in other games will inevitably come up with an Apologetic in the party and it will make things a TON more fun and I think encourage much more role-playing, or if not role-playing itself, more opportunity to display the personality, morality, characteristics etc, of that role that your are playing. Actually, I suppose I've been wording it badly in that way, I suppose I don't actually mean role-playing itself but those components that make up the role-playing, who your character is will be seen a TON more in social type interactions than in combat. That erratic pendulum will occur in a standard D&D game though, you're right, but I think that in a non-combat based campaign (which is the main reason this class was made) that Apologetic will shine as a VERY useful character with plenty of options and powerful abilities. Making things prone or dropping weapon only works for some of the opponents you may face. Most of the creatures in that Gauntlet can be persuaded, but if you had to goto your backup plans of using bolas or whips than you would most likely fail and it only gets worse at higher levels. This class isn't versatile and is very narrowly focused. A bard or rogue can just as easily be an Apologetic and still have other abilities to spare. You're absolutely right again. That was my point, also. If I changed the Apologetic so that he wasn't "on again, off again" in battle, he'd probably be totally broken because he'd own people outside of battle, in non-combat and do really well in battle most of the time. He needs to rely on others in combat to offset his power of manipulating social interactions in such a useful way. And, as I was saying before, the difference in campaign type that an Apologetic is meant for would necessarily alter the "normal" opponents the party would face, giving the Apologetic more chances of being useful in combat (Example: Because the Apologetic is going to try to interact with intelligent humanoids, a slip-up leading to a fight will be a fight not with monsters, where tripping and disarming are mostly useless, but against opponents that these are useful methods and tactics). As I said, the Apologetic really needs to be playtested in a more appropriate context. A bard or rogue can be Apologetic-like but I am not sure that they could be an Apologetic. I don't see there being any way one of those could walk up to a group of sworn enemies and, before a sword is swung, form a (probably) grudging alliance to accomplish a task which would benefit both parties. I don't see any way that either of those classes could stop dead a heated battle to explain a simple misunderstanding ("We didn't kill your comrade in the other room, we found him that way..."). I don't see any way that a Bard or Rogue can look a few people up and down and know which person is the best to approach for help (they rely heavily on luck, happenstance etc.). Completely stop a threatening, maybe crippling, offensive action of an enemy as an immediate action as a bard or rogue without it being an AoO. The Bard or Rogue would be hard pressed to duplicate or replace the abilities of the Apologetic. Also, I'm sure there are classes out there even more narrow than Apologetic, I'm not necessarily trying to make something that is more attractive than the classes already out there, just an option for someone who wants to play the way that I'm talking about. However, if anything, I could see your point, in that, maybe the Apologetic could use a couple more abilities (which I'm already working on). Thanks again, let me know what you think. Remember, I agree with you for the most part, I think we're mostly just coming from two different outlooks of priority, importance, perspectives on role-playing, etc.
jradd777 10-23-07, 01:52 PM	This is in reference to the class ability: Detect Disposition: The Apologetic’s practice in reading people at a glance to better understand or persuade them eventually allows them to detect the dispositions of those around him or her. At 5th level and higher, an Apologetic can make a Sense Motive check against the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Charisma bonus [if any]). If successful the Apologetic knows the target’s disposition toward himself or herself. The check should be 1d20+CR+target's Charisma since hitdice can really vary in each CR. Alright, I'm finally responding to this, I didn't have a chance to work on it right away at the time, but it raises a question to me... I based this almost word for word off of the PHB 3.5 version of modified level check for Intimidate. Should I still change it to be based off of CR instead of HD? Should I use a different way to modify the level check? I just want some opinions because I'm kind of of the mind to leave it as is, since it's the same as the Intimidate skill right now (nice and simple etc.).
eternalGM 10-23-07, 11:31 PM	Im probly gonna get flamed for this but.......oh my god, this class is GAY!
bkdubs123 10-23-07, 11:52 PM	Yeah, apparently you just couldn't resist those uncontrollable immature urges, huh? Its okay, you don't have to play it. You didn't even have to comment at all. I'd have preferred it if you hadn't. *shakes head*
jradd777 10-24-07, 12:45 AM	Im probly gonna get flamed for this but.......oh my god, this class is GAY! Don't mind him. Can I ask if there's any specifics or if you just indiscriminately think it's "GAY"? Is it underpowered, bad concept, etc? Something constructive I can work with? Thanks for commenting.
jradd777 10-29-07, 02:13 PM	Alright... I'm going to bump, one last time, eventually I'll edit it as the final draft but I'd really like some solid suggestions before I finish it off with the couple that I've gotten.
jradd777 11-09-07, 06:23 AM	Okay, so, he's been around a while, I've taken in a lot of suggestions and I think I've made the most important changes. PLEASE, take a look, all the abilities I plan to give the Apologetic are in there (Auras specifically have been fully updated so that there are 13 to choose from with many different uses, etc.) Please, even let me know if you see simple typos, but mostly give me some constructive criticisms! Soon to come: Probably the full, or most, of the fluff that comes with a fully fleshed out class (because I plan to enter this into the next cookie contest that comes around). Hopefully, new/more pictures and a sample Apologetic. Thanks in advance!
jradd777 11-11-07, 05:11 PM	Alright, I've made several more changes: Detect Disposition: still worked off the original diplomacy rules rather than the altered ones, so I replaced it with a detect alignment ability. Friendly Approach: I updated the wording because Bkdubs123 and I (mostly Bkdubs) noticed how much it really didn't seem to make sense and tell the person what it was supposed to do and how it's used. Sample: I added a sample Apologetic at the bottom, I will probably be adding another higher level sample that was created by Bkdubs123, several months ago, when I first started talking about this class. Please check out the sample, too, because I mean for him to also give a fuller idea of what these guys are capable of being. Prayer Auras: I haven't gotten any comments on the newer ones (Imprecations mostly and a Grant or two) at all yet, I'd really like to know what people think about them. EDIT: Added a Skill Focus choice at 1st level, to refine flavor of individuals as Apologetics. Also, I'm adding to the Shout abilities, each one will be able to interact with feats that have similar abilities, if taken. Disarming will interact with Improved Disarm, Staggering will interact with Improved Trip, Disorienting will interact with Stunning Fist, and Sundering will interact with Improved Sunder.
Aerostoth 11-19-07, 11:58 PM	Could u make a final draft of the class and post? thnks.
jradd777 11-20-07, 02:21 AM	Could u make a final draft of the class and post? thnks. Will do... I'm going to write up all the fluff first but then I'll do a Final Draft and post for you (should be up by Wednesday night, I'm pretty busy with college but that's the first full night of a holiday for me). Thanks for posting!!! I was beginning to think that this class was lost...