Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xanaphia 01-30-05, 05:50 AM	I have a character who is Apostle of Peace 7 (Book of Exalted Deeds pg 52), Cleric 7. My DM and fellow players think the Apostle of Peace's supernatural Pacifying Touch Ability is too powerful because it is a touch attack that gives no save and no SR. It also has no limit to daily uses. The effect is similar to the spell Calm Emotions, but none of the limits of a spell. Using a supernatural ability does not provoke an attack of opportunity either. The DM is having trouble sending things against the party because unless they are undead or constructs I make a touch attack, it calms down, the party walks past it/them. The DM doesn't want to send something too powerful and have a total party kill, but is tired of the character walking around, touching all the Rage Drakes, Skin Dancers, etc.. in turn and the party gliding past with no encounter/fights. I'm biased on my character's part, of course. Do you think it's broken? Currently, the DM has limited the use to gaining the ability 1/day at 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th so my character being 7th level gets three uses a day and a duration of concentration + 20 rounds. Opinions?
ParagonLeShay 01-30-05, 05:53 PM	Limiting the uses per day is probably the best step to take in this instance; the progression you mentioned seems balanced enough and not very broken at all. I wouldn’t go any farther with revisions unless my DM/fellow players kept hounding me about it. If they did, I’d probably do one of the following. One possibility for making this ability seem less broken for your DM is to give it a Will save, maybe at DC 10 + Class Level + Wis mod. Another possibility (maybe more balanced, but not as tempting for a player) is to change the ability into a spell-like ability, with caster level equal to the apostle of peace’s caster level (or character level, if it seems more appropriate). With this option, it’d be more fair for the player to gain the ability at every even-numbered class level, starting at 2nd level and going up to 5/day at 10th level.
Debonair 01-30-05, 11:48 PM	It's supposed to be too powerful. It's also extremely limited, due to the tie-ins with the Vow feats. If the apostle is effectively shutting down every conflict he gets into, either you're really good, or the DM isn't working you hard enough. My solution? Ranged attacks. I'm serious. Not everything gets into touch range. Or attack from two sides, or in swarms. If the opponents are intelligent, they've probably heard of this guy. Someone like that gains a lot of noteriety. They can prepare for him. Now you said you just skip every encounter. What do you do? Just waltz through random dungeons, chilling out monsters and stealing treasure? Remember, this is an Exalted character. He's not good (adj), he is Good (n). He should feel a calling to go spread peace through the world, not be a glorified theif. If that's all he's content to do, he shouldn't have gotten the PrC (or even the Vows) in the first place. Re-read the early chapter in the BoED about what good is and what Exalted is. The kind of challenges this guy should be facing aren't usually solved by Pacifiying things and moving on.
Kessalin Talira 01-31-05, 05:13 AM	It's supposed to be too powerful. It's also extremely limited, due to the tie-ins with the Vow feats. If the apostle is effectively shutting down every conflict he gets into, either you're really good, or the DM isn't working you hard enough. My solution? Ranged attacks. I'm serious. Not everything gets into touch range. Or attack from two sides, or in swarms. If the opponents are intelligent, they've probably heard of this guy. Someone like that gains a lot of noteriety. They can prepare for him. Now you said you just skip every encounter. What do you do? Just waltz through random dungeons, chilling out monsters and stealing treasure? Remember, this is an Exalted character. He's not good (adj), he is Good (n). He should feel a calling to go spread peace through the world, not be a glorified theif. If that's all he's content to do, he shouldn't have gotten the PrC (or even the Vows) in the first place. Re-read the early chapter in the BoED about what good is and what Exalted is. The kind of challenges this guy should be facing aren't usually solved by Pacifiying things and moving on. As one of the aforementioned players in this campaign, I can vouch for the fact that it's not a case of glorified thievery by any means. The character is completely pacifistic, has no desire for treasure, takes issue with the fact that the rest of us are killing things that she doesn't get to, etc. The kinds of challenges we're facing right now are starting to take a turn for the worse as far as the Apostle is concerned, but when we're not facing undead and constructs, most encounters come down to "stay alive long enough for the AoP to get here." The ranged attacks idea is a good one, but if it's something that ends up being a real threat, the rest of the party has any number of ways of getting the Apostle into touch range, even if it's as drastic as teleporting onto the dragon's back. I, as a player, think the ability is simply too effective. My character, however, sees the effectiveness as a benefit.
Xanaphia 01-31-05, 05:19 AM	It's supposed to be too powerful. It's also extremely limited, due to the tie-ins with the Vow feats. If the apostle is effectively shutting down every conflict he gets into, either you're really good, or the DM isn't working you hard enough. My solution? Ranged attacks. I'm serious. Not everything gets into touch range. Or attack from two sides, or in swarms. If the opponents are intelligent, they've probably heard of this guy. Someone like that gains a lot of noteriety. They can prepare for him. Now you said you just skip every encounter. What do you do? Just waltz through random dungeons, chilling out monsters and stealing treasure? Remember, this is an Exalted character. He's not good (adj), he is Good (n). He should feel a calling to go spread peace through the world, not be a glorified theif. If that's all he's content to do, he shouldn't have gotten the PrC (or even the Vows) in the first place. Re-read the early chapter in the BoED about what good is and what Exalted is. The kind of challenges this guy should be facing aren't usually solved by Pacifiying things and moving on. She donates all shares of her treasure to the church of Elishar which she serves or redeems any evil things found that she can. (This confounds and annoys greatly the rogue of the party ! ) We are on a LOTR type quest, recovering 9 very powerful rings for the Temple of Light, the party being hired by my church and I being sent to aid them by keeping them alive and spread the peace of Elishar as I go. Currently, we are trying to find who is twisting Eldar mounts into fiendish rage drakes (an off shoot of the adventure). I calm creatures, and if they're intelligent, gain an oath from them to stop doing whatever evil deed they're currently commiting, in this case eating elven and human settlements. They're told the rest of the party will fight/stop them if they refuse. If they can't give/refuse to give an oath I regretfully release them from the calming effect, step back, and the rest of the party fights them and I strengthen and heal the party. I've put geas on some kobolds, redeemed a few giants, and sadly failed to redeem any trolls though I am sure the faith of Elishar will prevail. *insert angleic trumpet here* As far as the notoriety goes, my character tries to avoid it, but the forces of evil have noticed and wanted her for their own purposes. So far, the Nightmare riding Blackguard sent after us was defeated. Luckily, the party refused to trade me for the Ring he offered. I really appreciate your input. Thank You.
DM Zoc 01-31-05, 05:21 AM	Moreso than any other class anywhere, the Apostle of Peace defines the role of the party.
Xanaphia 01-31-05, 05:39 AM	Limiting the uses per day is probably the best step to take in this instance; the progression you mentioned seems balanced enough and not very broken at all. I wouldn’t go any farther with revisions unless my DM/fellow players kept hounding me about it. If they did, I’d probably do one of the following. One possibility for making this ability seem less broken for your DM is to give it a Will save, maybe at DC 10 + Class Level + Wis mod. Another possibility (maybe more balanced, but not as tempting for a player) is to change the ability into a spell-like ability, with caster level equal to the apostle of peace’s caster level (or character level, if it seems more appropriate). With this option, it’d be more fair for the player to gain the ability at every even-numbered class level, starting at 2nd level and going up to 5/day at 10th level. AcK! I'd rather stick with the limited uses per day! *shudders* It has a will save when it's just the 20 ft. aura that she has from VOP (BOED p 48). This has made conflict interesting when members of my party failed their will save and didn't feel like fighting anymore. That resulted in members of my party yelling at me to keep my distance! So, I only have to use the touch attack version when they already pass their will save (currently DC 23). Thank You !
CaoSlayer 01-31-05, 07:29 AM	ummmm, a mind blank spell for the BBEG would help... the trouble it is that is a high wisdom, high will character, so getting him holded/charmed/dominated it is not an option... and what about blindness/deafness? if he cant see, cant touch (easily).
Debonair 01-31-05, 02:50 PM	More info... excellent. Sounds like a cool campaign. I don't have my book handy, and I'll reply again when I've had a chance to read it again, but I think the answer is more in the challenges you face and the craftyness of the BBEG than in changing the ability. It sounds like it's becoming a power war between you and the DM, with the rest of the party watching and helping. That's nobody's fault. It can happen when someone is playing a character THAT powerful who makes his living annoying the DM. If you still think limiting the ability is the way, I think limiting times per day nerfs it too much. Maybe limit the number of people you can calm at one time. Maybe your calming touch can affect one person per four character levels, and using it further ends the effect on the first one you used it on. Or the DM could pitch you some moral dilemmas... or the BBEG could. Those always screw with Exalted characters and are a valid strategy for him to use...
Kessalin Talira 01-31-05, 04:47 PM	lol, he did... The Apostle of Peace and I are the highest level characters in the party, at 14, and we had to deal with a former paladin blackguard of around 16th level. He made us an offer: trade the Apostle of Peace for the artifact ring he had, and we wouldn't have to fight. She was tempted, we had a rough fight on our hands. As for the BBEG, there really isn't one yet. All we're doing is running all over the world trying to find this set of nine rings, of which we have three. So there really aren't many preparations the random villains can make... I think the closest thing to a BBEG character we've encountered so far has been the Blackguard. With the pacifying touch, each time she uses it it's effectively a calm emotions spell on that person, no one else is part of that effect. That's how the DM ruled it, and how I read it, as well. (I DM for another campaign with all the same people, so we debate rules back and forth all the time.) Spreading it out to multiple targets on the same effect might not be a bad idea, but hard to keep track of, as well. The idea that she can only have x targets affected, and adding more ends it for the first ones is good, too. I wouldn't so much call it a power war as trying to get that one single ability under control before it becomes a real problem. The DM has mentioned that there will be people it simply doesn't work on; people who are obviously psychotic, and don't feel any hostility toward the people they kill... they're the quintessential "cold-blooded killers".
Xanaphia 02-04-05, 07:35 AM	Thanks for the input. I'm a Mom so it took me a few days to get back to the discussion. Then I had to figure out what the BBEG was... because it isn't listed in the handbook. Doh! I HATE moral dilemmas! Nooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!! If it helps... AC 29 Str 13 Dex 14 Con 19 Int 16 Wis 22 Cha 21 Fort 14 Ref 11 Will 20 ER 5 all types, DR 5/Magic