Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BelRex 09-25-04, 11:07 PM	Ok, I posted on the BoED board a lil while back, trying to get some help turning the PrC into a core class. But instead of helping, they just said it couldn't be done...and refused to discuss why they thought it couldn't be done. It has a wizard BaB progression, casts 0-9th level spells from it's own list. If you are familiar with it, then I won't have to go further. I was going to virtually give it the feats needed..and spread the abilities out over a few levels. And give the two special abilities it has at level 12 and 14th. Was also going to remove the bonus exalted feats at level 1 and 2. What I need is suggestions and opinions on it. On the other board they said as a class it would be over powered..but I don't see where personally. Thanks in advance. Also..as you know a human can gain Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, and Vow of Nonviolence at level 1, and Vow of Peace at level 2.
BelRex 09-26-04, 07:39 PM	Whoo..9 views..Hoping for some feedback..so Bump
Asi the red 09-26-04, 11:41 PM	Hey ya'. Sorry, I'm not familiar with the PrC. However, I'll drop back if anyone else lays the groundwork and see if there's anything I can contribute. Asi the Red.
BelRex 09-27-04, 10:33 AM	The basics of the class are as follows. D4 HD, Wizards BaB, all good saves. Decent skill list and skill points. Gets spells from a specific list, which is mainly healing and utility spells..no attack spells. It can convert spells to cure spells. In addition to the benefits of the feats that are required to get into the class, you gain two abilities. Pacifying touch..if you make a touch attack against a creature(no save or sr) it is affected under calm emtions. You also get Censure fiends..which is basically like planer turning. If you are twice their HD..you banish them. Those abilities come at level 12 and 14. And that's basically the class.
EvilVegan 09-27-04, 10:50 AM	okay, since you already have the class made and you know how it would work. . . what do you need to know? It would be a very specific campaign oriented class or a very underpowered class, and as a PrC its pretty crappy since it only gets 2 abilities, one that only works on evil outsiders and one that doesnt' do anything but calm a single person down.
BelRex 09-27-04, 10:58 AM	I'm trying to find out why on earth somebody would think it would be overpowered. That's the only response I could get from two people on the BoED board, but they wouldn't give a reason. I was also trying to adjust the feat gains so it wouldn't throw off any balance. Though a human, as I said earlier, could gain it all by level 2..and be a cleric..so that throws it off. I was trying to find a good balance at earlier levels. You know the abilities of the vow of nonviolence and peace right?
EvilVegan 09-27-04, 01:31 PM	Yes I know the vows, but its the vows that are over powered, not the class, so I see no problem with making it a core class. Anyone can take those vows. The problem with giving them for free is that that frees up some other feats, but if you take vow of poverty at 1st level (like I do), you'll have way more feats than you would need. I'm planning on playing an exalted cleric/radiant servant of pelor that will get those vows and be broken because of it.
BelRex 09-27-04, 01:54 PM	Well that's one reason I was going to take away the bonus feats at level 1 and 2..so you end up with the same number of feats. Then spread the benefits of VoNV and VoPeace over the first 5 levels. So all I'm really granting in the class is VoP at first level as a bonus feat, because you must have Sacred Vow to take the class. On a side note..I was considering giving access to one domain. What do you think about that?
Waylander 09-27-04, 02:15 PM	you know.. i had two people run vows of poverty in my game and I, along with them, concluded that the vow is a nice feature but to be honest... rather lacking. There is nothing the vow gives you that bought gear cannot give you... as a matter of fact.. you will be able to boost yourself more with the bought gear... just go through the levels.. every boost is like an item..... if you count all the boosts... and convert them into items... they would be less in value from what a pc of that level would have.
BelRex 09-27-04, 02:22 PM	That's true..but it's more of a roleplaying option for many. For a monk perhaps..who is trying to gain perfection...he may feel that magical items hinder him..and feel that others would benefit where he cannot. I for one don't think a monk is totally self centered..and can find the right deity to model himself after..etc etc Vow of Poverty vs PC Wealth (http://members.lycos.co.uk/WizONegathael/VoP.htm) The WizO and several memebers of the BoED board have been trying to come up with Epic versions of Exalted Feats. The information in that link is a product of that.
Asi the red 09-27-04, 05:02 PM	Hey ya'. Doesn't sound too unviable to me, but my real question is: Why? Why does this need to be a new base class? What would the problem be with running a Cleric and memorizing Calm Emotions every day. Edit Turn Undead to be Planar Turning. Drop the Domains for the first feat that the Apostle gets. This does not require a whole new base class, just minor tweeking of a pre-existing one. A Base Class (how it seems in my mind) is something that a large portion of Adventurers can be. If it's a small select group, it ought to be a PrC. Asi the Red.
BelRex 09-27-04, 05:12 PM	Well for one, the PrC has it's on spell list 0-9. So by making it into a core class, you don't lose those 5-10 caster levels. (The PrC allows you to add half of your previous spellcasting levels do dertermine you new caster level). The difference between memorizing calm emtions and the ability is that you can use the ability at will, with no sr or save. With the class you get turning undead..I forgot to mention that sorry. You then get Censure Fiend at 14th level. I like the idea of being an Apostle from the start of my characters career. I would like him to belong to an order that promotes this lifestyle. The cleric is far too militant. To me it's easier to create a class from the PrC..using it's ideas..than to overhaul a core class.
EvilVegan 09-27-04, 08:28 PM	actually the only reason I'm not taking this PrC, despite taking all the required feats, is because they don't just get regular clerical spell progression. I think it's silly.
BelRex 09-27-04, 08:32 PM	I agree. Clerics are the class most likely to enter the PrC. They should have had +1 Caster level instead of it's own progression.
Asi the red 09-28-04, 01:14 AM	Hey ya'. The cleric is far too militant. Only if the player chooses to be. In my first 3rd Ed game our cleric was a complete pacifist. The only beings that he would attack were undead. He was struck only a handfull of times. This was way back when there were only the PHB, DMG, and MM. No special feats, PrC's or extra abilities were needed. Only the player's determination and desire to make it so. Pacifying Touch 1. Find the character level that the Apostle PrC would be when it gains access to the ability. 2. Find the highest level spell that a cleric of equal level would have access to. 3. Make a new spell (you can do that you know... ;) ) that does everything that Calm Emotions does but allows no save and no SR. Presto! Pacifying Touch for a cleric. Censure Fiends Method 1 1. Find the character level that the Apostle PrC would be when it gains the ability. 2. Remove one of the Cleric's Domains. 3. Replace with Censure Fiends at the same level. Censure Fiends Method 2 1. Edit the Good/Law domain's granted powers to read the way that the Elemental domain's granted powers do. Now you have 1. Pacifying Touch. At the same level. 2. Censure Fiends. Either at the same level or way before it'll be useful. 3. Converts spells to Healing spells. 4. Full spell progression. For it -HD increases two steps. -One save goes down. -Skill reduction. -Still getting one Domain. The real difference between playing an Apostle of Peace and a stock Cleric is one of roleplaying. You choose to play a violent character. You don't have to; it can be done. If you want to play a pacifistic, non-violent, anti-militant cleric from 1st level there's nothing stopping you from doing it with the Base Cleric except your own image of what the Cleric is. Personally I've never seen a priest, rabbi, imam, or any other religious person hit someone with a mace (except for that one Bishop who hit those people with his car...). I'd classify all those occupations as "Clerics", wouldn't you? So why do we see the Cleric class as being inherently violent and require a separate "Apostle of Peace" to be a pacifistic class? Is the Cleric class so incapable of non-violence that we require a PrC to make it a pacifist? I'll end my rant there. I still see no reason for the Apostle of Peace base class when the Cleric fits it well enough with only minor alterations. Asi the Red.
EvilVegan 09-28-04, 05:24 PM	We call it militant because it's got a d8 hp, good armor and weapon proficiencies, average BAB, and is described in the flavor text as being a capable combatant. I would actually describe modern priests as adepts. Or Bards. Or rogues in some cases. :)
BelRex 09-28-04, 07:30 PM	My thoughts exactly Vegan. Asi, thanks for your thoughts and ways to create the Apostle your way, but I think it would be easier just to expand the current PrC to 20 levels. Like I said..I envision a totally different order of clerics, and the current set is too militant, and the skill aren't what they should be. Thanks for the ideas though.
Asi the red 09-29-04, 02:42 PM	Hey ya'. Well, if you won't do it the easy way, I give you this. http://www.dndworld.com/3e/classes/classconstruction.pdf Careful though, you have to be the balance you see in your class. Asi the Red.
BelRex 09-29-04, 04:35 PM	Ok..lets see what I can come up with using your class building guide. HD=+10 Skill points=+30 Weapons=+10(we are going to assume all simple weapons) Armor=0(cannot use armor) Skills=+20(17 skills total) Alignment=-5(can only be good) BaB=+10(as wizard) Saves=+35(as monk) Spells=+47(47 for cleric style list -10 for limited list+ 10 for ability to cast) Spontaneous cure spells=+5 Excellent Abilities=+30(turn undead, censure fiend) Outstanding Ability=+20(pacifying touch) Domain spells=+9 Strict Code=-15 Divine Gift(1 domain)=+5 Total=211 (Could add +5 back to it, if you consider the addition of the ability to use protective magical items a Godly gift, because it conflicts with the vows) I think that is correct, but please feel free to go back and check. I want to be as accurate as possible.
Asi the red 09-29-04, 06:03 PM	Hey ya'. And the Vows? Aren't they feats that the PrC gets, or are they part of the PrC's requirements. If they're feats the PrC gets, add them in as well at +10 points a piece (they're of Mystical feat nature I assume) and the total goes up to 231. Almost to where the base cleric is, and right around the Wiz. and Ranger. Asi the Red.
BelRex 09-29-04, 06:41 PM	They're a function of the Vow, so I didnt add them into the equation. Remember, I traded the feats below 5th level around, so I could spread the benefits over the 5 levels..instead of just 2 levels. So you are actually only getting one bonus feat at first level. So I'll add +10. Also, I was looking over the rest of the list, and I think I should deduct an additional 10 or 15 ..because you cannot harm(as in pain, damage, negative levels, ability damage, disentigrate..etc) any living creature, and you cannot own anything. That's two very strict codes you have to adhere to. Or you could view it as a strict code and a greater restriction. Edit: Would you consider the Pacifying touch an outstanding ability, excellent, moderate?? Su. similar to the calm emtions spells. must make a touch attack. no saving throw or save required. only effects anger, rage, or hostility. Can make a level check to dispel mind effecting spells(such as fear or rage)