Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Prator_the_Legendary 03-18-07, 02:08 PM	Hmmm... I'm dealing with a bard character right now who apparently knows everything. Every time there's some kind of situation where ANY kind of Knowledge check might be made (Whether it be Arcana, Religion, or Stamp Collecting), he makes a Bardic Knowledge check. Trouble is, I can't exactly refute what he's doing, because the Player's handbook is kind of vague on that point. I'd gotten the impression somewhere that it could only be used to substitute for Gather Information checks... What exactly IS that skill for? I've seen a few places where specific lore knowledge can be found with bardic knowledge checks, but not much else...
ZeronHitaro 03-18-07, 02:14 PM	There's an easy way to fix this. Bardic Knowledge revolves around the fact that the Bard will know a lot of folklore and legends because of all the songs and stories he/she has been exposed to in her trade. Solution: So on that knowledge Geography check to determine where they are. Is there a song written about this road and where it goes? Did someone write a poem detailing the path from Kingdom A to Kingdom B? Probably not. In that case Bardic Knowledge wouldn't do squat. Or if you want to roll with it: Your Bardic Knowledge lets you know of a song with the message "When you're lost and don't know where to go just sing a song and skip along. " :P
Eyeless Blond 03-18-07, 02:59 PM	Er, it's also meant to detail the fact that bards are very social people, so they constantly gather bits of information from random passer-by, people met in taverns, that time they shot the breeze with the local baron, etc. The part where bardic knowledge applied to everything knowledge-related is a bit of a holdover from 3.0 I'm guessing, when the bard had to fill all the requisite skill knowledge of a caster (Concentration, spellcraft, etc), plus the requisite knowledges of a mobile warrior (tmble, the jump/balance synergy), PLUS the skill knowledge of their own profession (namely Preform), with a measly 4+int skill points and Int as their second- or third-lowest priority stat. He just never had the time for knowledge skills, even though a well-traveled bard *should* know a little bit about everything, so it was a common houserule to let a bard attempt any knowledge check using BN, but at a slightly higher DC (usually +5 over the actual skill's DC). Even now it's not much better. Unless you have Complete Mage to take Concentration out of the bard's list of needed skills the bard still needs ~3 times the number of skills most other classes require, and that's just to stay competitive, not to have extra flavor bits for their character. The part where Perform got split into several different skills makes it even worse; that requires a second feat to correct. Either you end up feat-starved or skill-starved; I don't see a problem with continuing the houserule myself.
Prator_the_Legendary 03-18-07, 07:59 PM	It's not a houserule I set up. It's a blank spot in the rules that's being exploited. My biggest objection to it is that it pretty much nullifies the need for REAL knowledge skills...
Shadowfax7 03-19-07, 09:51 AM	Bardic Knowledge is supposed to apply only to "local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places". These limitations, if strictly adhered to, are enough to make Knowledge skills still necessary.
Arcane Guyver 03-19-07, 12:14 PM	I really dislike the current bardic knowledge rules. As you say, they're a bit too vague. I, too, have a player who will CONSTANTLY ask if he can make bardic knowledge checks; it's quite disruptive. Currently, I have it work differently (so you instead get a number of virtual ranks in Appraise and all Knowledge skills equal to half your level, and you can use those skills untrained), and to make up for the reduced power level, give them the Lore Song ability (from Dungeonscape...not too strong, and it gives bards something to make specifically themselves better, unlike most of their other abilities).
Tisner44 03-19-07, 12:55 PM	I find bardic Knowledge checks fun. Remember as the DM, it is you who decides what the Bard might have heard. Unless specifically stated in the rules (which are vague), any other checks will only succeed if the information could have been told to them by someone or if there is a story about it. Also remember that a Bard's knowledge is not always complete, so feel free to only give bits and pieces, usually they will only hear the extravagant parts of a story. "There is a tale of a Red Dragon by the Blood River, who terrorizes the villagers, and all those who go after him never return." Unfortunately, there is nothing about the quicksand that surrounds the area....:weep: Simple questions should not be answered with Bardic Knowledge, and Knowledge checks, should be at a negative and only give the most popular street knowledge. Also, once the Bardic Knowledge fails the character and almost gets them killed, they will learn to gather other info before relying completely on the Bard's brain....:eek:
Khan the Destroyer 03-19-07, 01:54 PM	The Sage has said that Bardic Knowledge does not take over Knowledge checks. It only applies to those items Shadowfax7 has already listed: local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. When he makes a check for anything not related to these, just tell him he hasn't ever heard anything related to the issue. I can see being more lenient with it, but if it is becoming a problem, that's a simple solution. A bard is meant to know obscure random bits of information. He is not meant to have an encyclopedic wealth of knowledge about anything and everything under the sun.
The_Shaman 03-19-07, 03:40 PM	Really? I expected it to be something like a trivia buff. They've heard so much legends, listened to so many drunken stories, and read so many books that they've probably come upon mentions of almost anything. Of course, it might be that they remember something completely irrelevant :D