Arcane Archer Arguement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Archer Arguement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
drizzt420
01-29-07, 11:51 AM Gaming this past weekend a PC and I (the DM of game in question) got into a semi-heated discussion in regards to the following which I would like opinions on.

He plays an Arcane Archer and in a battle he chose to use his Arcane Archer ability to Imbue Arrow with the spell Fireball. He shot this a scored a critical (confirmed) on a Frost Giant.

First off he is kind of new to the current game but played 2nd Edition a lot. The problem involves the Reflex save to half the damage of the Fireball imbued arrow. He was firm in his belief that the Frost Giant that was struck by the arrow should not get a Reflex save because he could not avoid the spells effect beings the arrow was sunk in his chest. Others around the giant got their save, just not the giant itself. I can see where he is coming from and I ruled it that way but I was wondering about it. What do you guys think? Should the Frost Giant get the save or no?
Puca
01-29-07, 11:58 AM "When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster."

Thats all Imbue Arrow does. The caster could have centered the fireball on the giants chest without the arrow.

The Frost Giant gets a save. The logic of "not being able to avoid it" changing the way the spell works assumes that "being able to avoid it" has anything to do with it. It might make sense in the way we think about what a character is doing in a reflex save, but that has nothing to do with the actual rules; even helpless foes get one.
drizzt420
01-29-07, 12:16 PM Ah, that makes sense. Thank you for the response. Another question...

What exactly is Imbue Arrow good for then if you could just cast the spell regardless? Does it have something to do with the spells range and landing arrows in places certain spells could not reach or is it pretty much a useless feature of the Arcane Archer? I have never really dealt with an Arcane Archer in any of my campaigns - it is just one PC we have never dabbled in.

Thanx in advance for any insight given. :bow:
Puca
01-29-07, 12:50 PM Ive never cared for it: the prereqs are caster heavy, but it doesnt let you advance as a caster.

The advantage of the Imbue Arrow seems to me to be primarily that you can use the arrows range instead of the spells. So, really, it works for spells with a worse range than you have (Close range) or those area spells that normally are centered on the caster.

You can also use it to get damage from the arrow in addition to the normal spell damage, as well as to damage your primary target and those close to him.
Lotus Crane
01-29-07, 12:51 PM What exactly is Imbue Arrow good for then if you could just cast the spell regardless?
1) Extra damage from the arrow, on top of the spell's normal effects.
2) Bows, especially +(number) composite longbows of distance used with the Far Shot feat, have a much better maxmimum range than most spells. Why settle for shatter at a range of 25-75 feet, when you can fire an arrow imbued with the spell of at a range of 1100-3300 feet?
Puca
01-29-07, 01:51 PM I didnt think you could use a spell like RoE with Imbue? Only area spells?
Granted, I think your interpretation would be better, without being unfairly so.
Witch
01-29-07, 01:54 PM I think your houseruling that the one hit with the arrow (provided the arrow actually hits) was a good one. I'd encourage you to keep it. It has precedent with some spells (such as meteor swarm).
Lotus Crane
01-29-07, 01:55 PM I didnt think you could use a spell like RoE with Imbue? Only area spells?
WHOOPS. ~_~ And that's what I get for not meticulously double-checking the facts for every post I make. Time to go edit my previous entry.
Puca
01-29-07, 02:12 PM I think Ive seen that, here on the boards not in RL, as a houserule though. The class isnt that strong, and the ability isnt that great.

I could see myself allowing it. Letting something like RoE have a better range, but v. a higher AC, isnt bad for a PrC ability.
chitzk0i
01-29-07, 02:24 PM The Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow ability can indeed only be used with AoE spells. It'd be nice for stuff that has a close, medium, or fixed range, like a sculpted grease spell or cone of cold.

Really, with Arcane Archer, you're either doing it for the free magic arrows (e.g. Ftr6/Caster1 or Hexblade6) or you want to maximize the Imbue Arrow ability (Ftr2/Caster8).
StevenO
01-29-07, 07:34 PM ..
What exactly is Imbue Arrow good for then if you could just cast the spell regardless? Does it have something to do with the spells range and landing arrows in places certain spells could not reach or is it pretty much a useless feature of the Arcane Archer?

Ive never cared for it: the prereqs are caster heavy, but it doesnt let you advance as a caster.

Imbue Arrow is good for extending the range of area effects than are otherwise short ranged. You may be able to target a fireball some distance but it lets Greese and Obscuring Mist reach far beyond their normal ranges. Even Fireball can be fired beyond its normal range although I recommend targeting a 5' square instead of an actual creature. The truth is that unless you select spells to maximize its use Imbue Arrow IS basically a useless class feature.

Class prereq: Cast 1st level arcane Spell. I certainly don't consider that to be caster heavy. With the Duskblade and Hexblade you aren't even giving up any BAB to meet the prereqs for Arcane Archer. While the "blade" part of DUskblade may not seem to go well with an Arcane Archer it may be one of the better entry classes for the PrC.

For the OP, yes an imbued spell still allows a save. I could see a save penalty for a target hit (equal to say the enhance arrow bonus) especially on a critical hit but that would just be a house rule.
Jerks
01-29-07, 10:04 PM A crit hit with the arrow might be a good case for a +2 DC on the spell. The floating +/-2 is the best friend any GM can have.

Imbue Arrow unfortunatly isn't as good as it sounds...once you read it. It would be nice if you could put touch attacks on the arrows...but that is not the case. I've got an AA in the works right now and have gone through the list looking for suitable spells.

Long range spells (Fireball) don't gain that much benefit from the the ability except in extreme circumstances. A composite Longbow has a maximum range of 1,100 feet, so a True Stike Imbue Fireball combo could be useful for knocking flying creatures/airships out of the sky, but it's doubtful this comes up too often.

Short and Medium range spells get a much greater benefit as you can potentially increase the range of your spells by about 5 to 10 x.

Although the best bang for your buch comes with personal range area spells. Unfortunately there just aren't that many of them.

One thing that is sometimes overlooked is the ability to use this to buff allies if you are seperated from them. For example, haste only has a close range. You could shoot the guy fighting your friend and then buff all you allies in the area at the same time.
Nezkrul
01-30-07, 12:24 AM when you look at Imbue Arrow, a lot of people begin thinking "laterally" and that it isn't that great, when you in fact should be thinking "vertically" as well. Bows arc. Fireball doesn't arc, an arrow does. Placing a fireball on an Imbued Arrow is good for fireballing those guys behind that ruined wall, without giving them the cover bonuses. Think 3 dimensions and you're good :D
shuman
01-30-07, 09:58 AM One thing that is sometimes overlooked is the ability to use this to buff allies if you are seperated from them. For example, haste only has a close range. You could shoot the guy fighting your friend and then buff all you allies in the area at the same time.

Hmmm. Would this work? Great idea.
Jerks
01-30-07, 10:28 AM Eventhough I'm the one that proposed this, upon further review I'm not entirely sure if it is rules legal. Technically, the spell is a targeted effect, but because because all of your targets have to be within 30 feet of one another, it does in effect have an area of effect. It's just sort of a selective area of effect. In many ways, Sleep is similar in that it's a area of effect, that doesn't affect everyone in the area.
drizzt420
01-31-07, 01:13 PM I was wondering, after all this insightful info (thanx guys, you rock) if there has been a list put forth detailing all available spells that an Arcane Archer has access to that would work with the Imbue Arrow ability. If this has already been done I would appreciate a point in the right direction but if it has not I would be interested in compiling a list and posting it just for reference.

However the only books I have for spells are PHB3.5, PHBII, Spell Compendium, Book of Vile Darkness, Manual of the Planes, FRCS, Magic of Faerun, Savage Species and maybe a couple more. I know that some got reprinted in the Compendium. I shall start with PHB I & II and the Compendium.
Sargeras
01-31-07, 01:25 PM I always thought that Fireburst and (especially) Greater Fireburst would be great with Imbue Arrow. 15d8 damage is much better than a Fireball, even though it's only a 15' radius. Just my suggestion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
drizzt420 01-29-07, 11:51 AM	Gaming this past weekend a PC and I (the DM of game in question) got into a semi-heated discussion in regards to the following which I would like opinions on. He plays an Arcane Archer and in a battle he chose to use his Arcane Archer ability to Imbue Arrow with the spell Fireball. He shot this a scored a critical (confirmed) on a Frost Giant. First off he is kind of new to the current game but played 2nd Edition a lot. The problem involves the Reflex save to half the damage of the Fireball imbued arrow. He was firm in his belief that the Frost Giant that was struck by the arrow should not get a Reflex save because he could not avoid the spells effect beings the arrow was sunk in his chest. Others around the giant got their save, just not the giant itself. I can see where he is coming from and I ruled it that way but I was wondering about it. What do you guys think? Should the Frost Giant get the save or no?
Puca 01-29-07, 11:58 AM	"When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster." Thats all Imbue Arrow does. The caster could have centered the fireball on the giants chest without the arrow. The Frost Giant gets a save. The logic of "not being able to avoid it" changing the way the spell works assumes that "being able to avoid it" has anything to do with it. It might make sense in the way we think about what a character is doing in a reflex save, but that has nothing to do with the actual rules; even helpless foes get one.
drizzt420 01-29-07, 12:16 PM	Ah, that makes sense. Thank you for the response. Another question... What exactly is Imbue Arrow good for then if you could just cast the spell regardless? Does it have something to do with the spells range and landing arrows in places certain spells could not reach or is it pretty much a useless feature of the Arcane Archer? I have never really dealt with an Arcane Archer in any of my campaigns - it is just one PC we have never dabbled in. Thanx in advance for any insight given. :bow:
Puca 01-29-07, 12:50 PM	Ive never cared for it: the prereqs are caster heavy, but it doesnt let you advance as a caster. The advantage of the Imbue Arrow seems to me to be primarily that you can use the arrows range instead of the spells. So, really, it works for spells with a worse range than you have (Close range) or those area spells that normally are centered on the caster. You can also use it to get damage from the arrow in addition to the normal spell damage, as well as to damage your primary target and those close to him.
Lotus Crane 01-29-07, 12:51 PM	What exactly is Imbue Arrow good for then if you could just cast the spell regardless? 1) Extra damage from the arrow, on top of the spell's normal effects. 2) Bows, especially +(number) composite longbows of distance used with the Far Shot feat, have a much better maxmimum range than most spells. Why settle for shatter at a range of 25-75 feet, when you can fire an arrow imbued with the spell of at a range of 1100-3300 feet?
Puca 01-29-07, 01:51 PM	I didnt think you could use a spell like RoE with Imbue? Only area spells? Granted, I think your interpretation would be better, without being unfairly so.
Witch 01-29-07, 01:54 PM	I think your houseruling that the one hit with the arrow (provided the arrow actually hits) was a good one. I'd encourage you to keep it. It has precedent with some spells (such as meteor swarm).
Lotus Crane 01-29-07, 01:55 PM	I didnt think you could use a spell like RoE with Imbue? Only area spells? WHOOPS. ~_~ And that's what I get for not meticulously double-checking the facts for every post I make. Time to go edit my previous entry.
Puca 01-29-07, 02:12 PM	I think Ive seen that, here on the boards not in RL, as a houserule though. The class isnt that strong, and the ability isnt that great. I could see myself allowing it. Letting something like RoE have a better range, but v. a higher AC, isnt bad for a PrC ability.
chitzk0i 01-29-07, 02:24 PM	The Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow ability can indeed only be used with AoE spells. It'd be nice for stuff that has a close, medium, or fixed range, like a sculpted grease spell or cone of cold. Really, with Arcane Archer, you're either doing it for the free magic arrows (e.g. Ftr6/Caster1 or Hexblade6) or you want to maximize the Imbue Arrow ability (Ftr2/Caster8).
StevenO 01-29-07, 07:34 PM	.. What exactly is Imbue Arrow good for then if you could just cast the spell regardless? Does it have something to do with the spells range and landing arrows in places certain spells could not reach or is it pretty much a useless feature of the Arcane Archer? Ive never cared for it: the prereqs are caster heavy, but it doesnt let you advance as a caster. Imbue Arrow is good for extending the range of area effects than are otherwise short ranged. You may be able to target a fireball some distance but it lets Greese and Obscuring Mist reach far beyond their normal ranges. Even Fireball can be fired beyond its normal range although I recommend targeting a 5' square instead of an actual creature. The truth is that unless you select spells to maximize its use Imbue Arrow IS basically a useless class feature. Class prereq: Cast 1st level arcane Spell. I certainly don't consider that to be caster heavy. With the Duskblade and Hexblade you aren't even giving up any BAB to meet the prereqs for Arcane Archer. While the "blade" part of DUskblade may not seem to go well with an Arcane Archer it may be one of the better entry classes for the PrC. For the OP, yes an imbued spell still allows a save. I could see a save penalty for a target hit (equal to say the enhance arrow bonus) especially on a critical hit but that would just be a house rule.
Jerks 01-29-07, 10:04 PM	A crit hit with the arrow might be a good case for a +2 DC on the spell. The floating +/-2 is the best friend any GM can have. Imbue Arrow unfortunatly isn't as good as it sounds...once you read it. It would be nice if you could put touch attacks on the arrows...but that is not the case. I've got an AA in the works right now and have gone through the list looking for suitable spells. Long range spells (Fireball) don't gain that much benefit from the the ability except in extreme circumstances. A composite Longbow has a maximum range of 1,100 feet, so a True Stike Imbue Fireball combo could be useful for knocking flying creatures/airships out of the sky, but it's doubtful this comes up too often. Short and Medium range spells get a much greater benefit as you can potentially increase the range of your spells by about 5 to 10 x. Although the best bang for your buch comes with personal range area spells. Unfortunately there just aren't that many of them. One thing that is sometimes overlooked is the ability to use this to buff allies if you are seperated from them. For example, haste only has a close range. You could shoot the guy fighting your friend and then buff all you allies in the area at the same time.
Nezkrul 01-30-07, 12:24 AM	when you look at Imbue Arrow, a lot of people begin thinking "laterally" and that it isn't that great, when you in fact should be thinking "vertically" as well. Bows arc. Fireball doesn't arc, an arrow does. Placing a fireball on an Imbued Arrow is good for fireballing those guys behind that ruined wall, without giving them the cover bonuses. Think 3 dimensions and you're good :D
shuman 01-30-07, 09:58 AM	One thing that is sometimes overlooked is the ability to use this to buff allies if you are seperated from them. For example, haste only has a close range. You could shoot the guy fighting your friend and then buff all you allies in the area at the same time. Hmmm. Would this work? Great idea.
Jerks 01-30-07, 10:28 AM	Eventhough I'm the one that proposed this, upon further review I'm not entirely sure if it is rules legal. Technically, the spell is a targeted effect, but because because all of your targets have to be within 30 feet of one another, it does in effect have an area of effect. It's just sort of a selective area of effect. In many ways, Sleep is similar in that it's a area of effect, that doesn't affect everyone in the area.
drizzt420 01-31-07, 01:13 PM	I was wondering, after all this insightful info (thanx guys, you rock) if there has been a list put forth detailing all available spells that an Arcane Archer has access to that would work with the Imbue Arrow ability. If this has already been done I would appreciate a point in the right direction but if it has not I would be interested in compiling a list and posting it just for reference. However the only books I have for spells are PHB3.5, PHBII, Spell Compendium, Book of Vile Darkness, Manual of the Planes, FRCS, Magic of Faerun, Savage Species and maybe a couple more. I know that some got reprinted in the Compendium. I shall start with PHB I & II and the Compendium.
Sargeras 01-31-07, 01:25 PM	I always thought that Fireburst and (especially) Greater Fireburst would be great with Imbue Arrow. 15d8 damage is much better than a Fireball, even though it's only a 15' radius. Just my suggestion.