Arcane Archer Question: [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Archer Question: [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
12-19-03, 07:27 PM Ok, the Arcane Archer has the ability to Imbue Arrows. Well I will give you two scenerios, to look and answer my question.

You have an Arcane Archer who is hiding and Imbues an Arrow with fireball. Well he fires it at a group, they see an arrow flying, but tell me why they would have any reason to believe that there is something different about the arrow, when the arrow hits and the fireball goes off, should they get a saving throw?

Second scenerio, the Arcane Archer imbues an arrow in front of a group of orcs, they don't know what he is doing, when the arrow hits and the fireball goes off, should they get saving throws. Now if a Wizard were to see it, then yes I could see a saving throw, but other times I don't see where one should be aloud.

Tell me what you think.
BlaineTog
12-19-03, 07:39 PM Open up your PHB and look at the line that says "Saving Throw."

It says "Yes," doesn't it?

Logically, they probably shouldn't, but then again, they shouldn't get one anyway since they don't have to move their characters out of the way ("Ref save" means they jumped to avoid it or something, but if you were to land a fireball at their feet, and after the fireball has gone off, they are in the same place, then how the &&&& could they have saved?). And HP isn't logical either.

The fact of the matter is that it would be overpowered to drop it on them and not allow a saving throw.
Nitasha
12-19-03, 07:40 PM Interesting argument XunValDorl of HouseKilsek, but what if you are a rogue and a wizard successfully sneaks up behind you and casts a silenced fireball spell. Should the rogue get a reflex save? Unfortunately it is a game mechanic that cant really be explained but must remain to keep things fair and balanced. So I would say yes, in both scenarios they are entitled to a reflex save. You could make a house rule the does not allow a saving throw if you are flat-footed or something, but anything more than that would be too unbalancing.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
12-19-03, 07:42 PM Originally posted by BlaineTog
Open up your PHB and look at the line that says "Saving Throw."

It says "Yes," doesn't it?

Logically, they probably shouldn't, but then again, they shouldn't get one anyway since they don't have to move their characters out of the way ("Ref save" means they jumped to avoid it or something, but if you were to land a fireball at their feet, and after the fireball has gone off, they are in the same place, then how the &&&& could they have saved?). And HP isn't logical either.

The fact of the matter is that it would be overpowered to drop it on them and not allow a saving throw.

When you imbue an arrow with fireball, the arrow looks no different, it looks like a plain arrow. Thats like, if I shot an arrow at you, you may move to get out of the way, but you aren't going to dive and roll out of the way like you would if someone threw a grenade at you. But lets say I fire the arrow, but I have a fireball inside waiting to blow up, how would you know to dive and roll out of the way when you don't suspect that the arrow contains a fireball? So why a saving throw?
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
12-19-03, 07:44 PM Originally posted by Nitasha
Interesting argument XunValDorl of HouseKilsek, but what if you are a rogue and a wizard successfully sneaks up behind you and casts a silenced fireball spell. Should the rogue get a reflex save? Unfortunately it is a game mechanic that cant really be explained but must remain to keep things fair and balanced. So I would say yes, in both scenarios they are entitled to a reflex save. You could make a house rule the does not allow a saving throw if you are flat-footed or something, but anything more than that would be too unbalancing.

Rogues have evasion, so that is the logical explanation as to why they would get a saving throw. The Hide Spell feat from Relics and Rituals don't allow a saving throw unless you have evasion, I think this should be the same way.
Nitasha
12-19-03, 08:02 PM Originally posted by XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
Rogues have evasion, so that is the logical explanation as to why they would get a saving throw. The Hide Spell feat from Relics and Rituals don't allow a saving throw unless you have evasion, I think this should be the same way.

A reflex save is as it sounds, your reflexes. Ok so sure you wouldn't be dodging around when someone fires an arrow the same way you would be if a fireball was flying at you, but you still get a saving throw. Why? Because your reflex save measures how good you are at dodging and how fast you are at reacting. So as soon as the arrow hit and you smell fire and hear a loud bang, you will immediately duck (there is still like a percentage of a second berfore the fireball will actually damage you, just enough time for a really fast character to react). Thats the best way I can explain it.

I know this sounds impossible because an explosion is so quick, but most creatures and people in D&D aren't average, and those who are probably wont make the save anyway, remember: just because they get to roll a save doesn't mean they are going to make it. A failed save represents their innability to react quickly enough to the smell of smoke or the quick flash of light or loud bang.

[add] Also remember, you are only saving for half damage, so if they make the save its not like they are completely avoiding all the damage, they were just able to find a way to avoid some of the blast or they were able to roll some of the damage off them (like by lifting their shield to absorb some of the blast, or turning their shoulder to the blast so only half of them gets hit).
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
12-19-03, 08:05 PM Originally posted by Nitasha
A reflex save is as it sounds, your reflexes. Ok so sure you wouldn't be dodging around when someone fires an arrow the same way you would be if a fireball was flying at you, but you still get a saving throw. Why? Because your reflex save measures how good you are at dodging and how fast you are at reacting. So as soon as the arrow hit and you smell fire and hear a loud bang, you will immediately duck (there is still like a percentage of a second berfore the fireball will actually damage you, just enough time for a really fast character to react). Thats the best way I can explain it.

I know this sounds impossible because an explosion is so quick, but most creatures and people in D&D aren't average, and those who are probably wont make the save anyway, remember: just because they get to roll a save doesn't mean they are going to make it. A failed save represents their innability to react quickly enough to the smell of smoke or the quick flash of light or loud bang.

Yeah but most reflex saves are for something you see coming at you. You see a normal Wizard casting a spell, you are going to be ready for anything, but an arrow coming at you? Some people will just stand there and take the blow because they are not expecting a fireball in an arrow, or a Monk who is trying to deflect an arrow, is he going to expect a fireball hidden in that arrow, I doubt it?
Nitasha
12-19-03, 08:08 PM I added something in my previous post...
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
12-19-03, 08:11 PM If you don't think they should lose their saving throw, then they should at least get a minus to it.
Nitasha
12-19-03, 08:14 PM Originally posted by XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
Yeah but most reflex saves are for something you see coming at you. You see a normal Wizard casting a spell, you are going to be ready for anything, but an arrow coming at you? Some people will just stand there and take the blow because they are not expecting a fireball in an arrow, or a Monk who is trying to deflect an arrow, is he going to expect a fireball hidden in that arrow, I doubt it?

You are refering to reflex too much as a dodging ability. Though for the most part it does represent that, but it also represents you ability to react and negate as much damage as possible through various means (like ducking, lifting your shield, turning your body to protect vital or less protected areas, or by going behind or placing someone between you and the blast such as someone who didn't make their save :) You dont necessarily have to move your feet to dodge something, like I said you could simply duck, drop to the floor, or turn your body, which realisticly you could do quickly enough in reaction to hearing the fireball spell erupt from the arrow.
Nitasha
12-19-03, 08:17 PM Originally posted by XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
If you don't think they should lose their saving throw, then they should at least get a minus to it.

Ok I could see that, but that is entirely up to the DM and should be the exception, not the rule.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
12-19-03, 08:20 PM Originally posted by Nitasha
You are refering to reflex too much as a dodging ability. Though for the most part it does represent that, but it also represents you ability to react and negate as much damage as possible through various means (like ducking, lifting your shield, turning your body to protect vital or less protected areas, or by going behind or placing someone between you and the blast such as someone who didn't make their save :) You dont necessarily have to move your feet to dodge something, like I said you could simply duck, drop to the floor, or turn your body, which realisticly you could do quickly enough in reaction to hearing the fireball spell erupt from the arrow.

A Fireball is instantaneous, with the Imbue Arrow ability as soon as the arrow hits the spells goes off, you take arrow damage and fireball damage. But how are you going to react to instantaneous effects. Say you get hit from behind by the arrow and you didn't know it was coming, should you get a reflex save if you didn't even know you where hit until it happened?
Nitasha
12-19-03, 08:28 PM Originally posted by XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
A Fireball is instantaneous, with the Imbue Arrow ability as soon as the arrow hits the spells goes off, you take arrow damage and fireball damage. But how are you going to react to instantaneous effects. Say you get hit from behind by the arrow and you didn't know it was coming, should you get a reflex save if you didn't even know you where hit until it happened?

You got me there. As a house rule I would only allow a reflex save for those around the target, but the one getting hit would not get one. How does that sound?
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
12-19-03, 08:31 PM Originally posted by Nitasha
You got me there. As a house rule I would only allow a reflex save for those around the target, but the one getting hit would not get one. How does that sound?

Sounds good to me. Yeah I know D&D is full of heroes and those that do outrageous things, but maybe with certain spells and abilities like the rogue and monk could you do it, but with other classes, no.....BOOM!!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 12-19-03, 07:27 PM	Ok, the Arcane Archer has the ability to Imbue Arrows. Well I will give you two scenerios, to look and answer my question. You have an Arcane Archer who is hiding and Imbues an Arrow with fireball. Well he fires it at a group, they see an arrow flying, but tell me why they would have any reason to believe that there is something different about the arrow, when the arrow hits and the fireball goes off, should they get a saving throw? Second scenerio, the Arcane Archer imbues an arrow in front of a group of orcs, they don't know what he is doing, when the arrow hits and the fireball goes off, should they get saving throws. Now if a Wizard were to see it, then yes I could see a saving throw, but other times I don't see where one should be aloud. Tell me what you think.
BlaineTog 12-19-03, 07:39 PM	Open up your PHB and look at the line that says "Saving Throw." It says "Yes," doesn't it? Logically, they probably shouldn't, but then again, they shouldn't get one anyway since they don't have to move their characters out of the way ("Ref save" means they jumped to avoid it or something, but if you were to land a fireball at their feet, and after the fireball has gone off, they are in the same place, then how the &&&& could they have saved?). And HP isn't logical either. The fact of the matter is that it would be overpowered to drop it on them and not allow a saving throw.
Nitasha 12-19-03, 07:40 PM	Interesting argument XunValDorl of HouseKilsek, but what if you are a rogue and a wizard successfully sneaks up behind you and casts a silenced fireball spell. Should the rogue get a reflex save? Unfortunately it is a game mechanic that cant really be explained but must remain to keep things fair and balanced. So I would say yes, in both scenarios they are entitled to a reflex save. You could make a house rule the does not allow a saving throw if you are flat-footed or something, but anything more than that would be too unbalancing.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 12-19-03, 07:42 PM	Originally posted by BlaineTog Open up your PHB and look at the line that says "Saving Throw." It says "Yes," doesn't it? Logically, they probably shouldn't, but then again, they shouldn't get one anyway since they don't have to move their characters out of the way ("Ref save" means they jumped to avoid it or something, but if you were to land a fireball at their feet, and after the fireball has gone off, they are in the same place, then how the &&&& could they have saved?). And HP isn't logical either. The fact of the matter is that it would be overpowered to drop it on them and not allow a saving throw. When you imbue an arrow with fireball, the arrow looks no different, it looks like a plain arrow. Thats like, if I shot an arrow at you, you may move to get out of the way, but you aren't going to dive and roll out of the way like you would if someone threw a grenade at you. But lets say I fire the arrow, but I have a fireball inside waiting to blow up, how would you know to dive and roll out of the way when you don't suspect that the arrow contains a fireball? So why a saving throw?
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 12-19-03, 07:44 PM	Originally posted by Nitasha Interesting argument XunValDorl of HouseKilsek, but what if you are a rogue and a wizard successfully sneaks up behind you and casts a silenced fireball spell. Should the rogue get a reflex save? Unfortunately it is a game mechanic that cant really be explained but must remain to keep things fair and balanced. So I would say yes, in both scenarios they are entitled to a reflex save. You could make a house rule the does not allow a saving throw if you are flat-footed or something, but anything more than that would be too unbalancing. Rogues have evasion, so that is the logical explanation as to why they would get a saving throw. The Hide Spell feat from Relics and Rituals don't allow a saving throw unless you have evasion, I think this should be the same way.
Nitasha 12-19-03, 08:02 PM	Originally posted by XunValDorl of HouseKilsek Rogues have evasion, so that is the logical explanation as to why they would get a saving throw. The Hide Spell feat from Relics and Rituals don't allow a saving throw unless you have evasion, I think this should be the same way. A reflex save is as it sounds, your reflexes. Ok so sure you wouldn't be dodging around when someone fires an arrow the same way you would be if a fireball was flying at you, but you still get a saving throw. Why? Because your reflex save measures how good you are at dodging and how fast you are at reacting. So as soon as the arrow hit and you smell fire and hear a loud bang, you will immediately duck (there is still like a percentage of a second berfore the fireball will actually damage you, just enough time for a really fast character to react). Thats the best way I can explain it. I know this sounds impossible because an explosion is so quick, but most creatures and people in D&D aren't average, and those who are probably wont make the save anyway, remember: just because they get to roll a save doesn't mean they are going to make it. A failed save represents their innability to react quickly enough to the smell of smoke or the quick flash of light or loud bang. [add] Also remember, you are only saving for half damage, so if they make the save its not like they are completely avoiding all the damage, they were just able to find a way to avoid some of the blast or they were able to roll some of the damage off them (like by lifting their shield to absorb some of the blast, or turning their shoulder to the blast so only half of them gets hit).
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 12-19-03, 08:05 PM	Originally posted by Nitasha A reflex save is as it sounds, your reflexes. Ok so sure you wouldn't be dodging around when someone fires an arrow the same way you would be if a fireball was flying at you, but you still get a saving throw. Why? Because your reflex save measures how good you are at dodging and how fast you are at reacting. So as soon as the arrow hit and you smell fire and hear a loud bang, you will immediately duck (there is still like a percentage of a second berfore the fireball will actually damage you, just enough time for a really fast character to react). Thats the best way I can explain it. I know this sounds impossible because an explosion is so quick, but most creatures and people in D&D aren't average, and those who are probably wont make the save anyway, remember: just because they get to roll a save doesn't mean they are going to make it. A failed save represents their innability to react quickly enough to the smell of smoke or the quick flash of light or loud bang. Yeah but most reflex saves are for something you see coming at you. You see a normal Wizard casting a spell, you are going to be ready for anything, but an arrow coming at you? Some people will just stand there and take the blow because they are not expecting a fireball in an arrow, or a Monk who is trying to deflect an arrow, is he going to expect a fireball hidden in that arrow, I doubt it?
Nitasha 12-19-03, 08:08 PM	I added something in my previous post...
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 12-19-03, 08:11 PM	If you don't think they should lose their saving throw, then they should at least get a minus to it.
Nitasha 12-19-03, 08:14 PM	Originally posted by XunValDorl of HouseKilsek Yeah but most reflex saves are for something you see coming at you. You see a normal Wizard casting a spell, you are going to be ready for anything, but an arrow coming at you? Some people will just stand there and take the blow because they are not expecting a fireball in an arrow, or a Monk who is trying to deflect an arrow, is he going to expect a fireball hidden in that arrow, I doubt it? You are refering to reflex too much as a dodging ability. Though for the most part it does represent that, but it also represents you ability to react and negate as much damage as possible through various means (like ducking, lifting your shield, turning your body to protect vital or less protected areas, or by going behind or placing someone between you and the blast such as someone who didn't make their save :) You dont necessarily have to move your feet to dodge something, like I said you could simply duck, drop to the floor, or turn your body, which realisticly you could do quickly enough in reaction to hearing the fireball spell erupt from the arrow.
Nitasha 12-19-03, 08:17 PM	Originally posted by XunValDorl of HouseKilsek If you don't think they should lose their saving throw, then they should at least get a minus to it. Ok I could see that, but that is entirely up to the DM and should be the exception, not the rule.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 12-19-03, 08:20 PM	Originally posted by Nitasha You are refering to reflex too much as a dodging ability. Though for the most part it does represent that, but it also represents you ability to react and negate as much damage as possible through various means (like ducking, lifting your shield, turning your body to protect vital or less protected areas, or by going behind or placing someone between you and the blast such as someone who didn't make their save :) You dont necessarily have to move your feet to dodge something, like I said you could simply duck, drop to the floor, or turn your body, which realisticly you could do quickly enough in reaction to hearing the fireball spell erupt from the arrow. A Fireball is instantaneous, with the Imbue Arrow ability as soon as the arrow hits the spells goes off, you take arrow damage and fireball damage. But how are you going to react to instantaneous effects. Say you get hit from behind by the arrow and you didn't know it was coming, should you get a reflex save if you didn't even know you where hit until it happened?
Nitasha 12-19-03, 08:28 PM	Originally posted by XunValDorl of HouseKilsek A Fireball is instantaneous, with the Imbue Arrow ability as soon as the arrow hits the spells goes off, you take arrow damage and fireball damage. But how are you going to react to instantaneous effects. Say you get hit from behind by the arrow and you didn't know it was coming, should you get a reflex save if you didn't even know you where hit until it happened? You got me there. As a house rule I would only allow a reflex save for those around the target, but the one getting hit would not get one. How does that sound?
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 12-19-03, 08:31 PM	Originally posted by Nitasha You got me there. As a house rule I would only allow a reflex save for those around the target, but the one getting hit would not get one. How does that sound? Sounds good to me. Yeah I know D&D is full of heroes and those that do outrageous things, but maybe with certain spells and abilities like the rogue and monk could you do it, but with other classes, no.....BOOM!!