Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ragoftag 02-21-08, 12:36 PM	It has been mentioned that some PrCs are either weak or overpowered. While covered by others, I thought I might get a few going starting with the Arcane Archer. I'm going to set only a couple of ground rules: (1) No rants or total dumps on some hapless Class, just to be wasting everyone's time. (2) Solid recommendations and reasoning are wanted. Arcane Archer Weapon and Armor Proficiency An arcane archer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields. Why should a dedicated ranged combat specialist be forced to learn to use Scythes? Shields? I think these should be dumped and replaced with Weapon and Armor Proficiency An arcane archer is proficient with all simple and martial bows, light and medium armors. Add Weapon Focus?
Lawkeeper 02-21-08, 12:53 PM	I see two way of "updating" the Arcane Archer : reducing it to a 5-levels class, or improve its 10-levels. The latter would make it a gish-like, the former will keep it as a combat-focus class (high BAB, no Will save) Full changes : - put away the weapon & armore proficiencies - expand the class skills : add at least Spellcraft, Know(Arcana) As a five-lvl class : - simply bring two abilities at each level : one enhancement increase + the following ability - change the Imbue arrow, to give it an X/day use of giving an enchantment (like flaming, keen, etc) As a ten-lvl class : - give five "+1 arcane spellcasting level" along the way, maybe on odd levels Just my two cents. :)
StevenO 02-21-08, 07:51 PM	Changes I think that would be small and fair but could have a big impact. 1. Change Enhanced Arrow benefit to an unnamed bonus thus enabling it to stack with a magical bow. This is how things worked in 3.0. 1b. Add that non-magical arrows fired by AA overcome DR/magic; an epic Arcane Archer (AA11, character level 21+) overcomes DR/epic with any non-magical arrow fired. 2. Call Seaker Arrow, Phase Arrow, and Hail of Arrows all "Arrow Tricks." You gain each trick at the same level as normal and at that same time add 1 time per day that you may use a trick. You may use a trick for with any trick you know thus when you pick up Hail of Arrow you could use any one ability three times per day or mix and match. This gives those abilities a little more versatility. If desired add another trick every two levels past 8th. 3. Change DC for Arrow of Death. I like 15 + 1/2 AA level (which matches the DC 20 when first gained) + DEX mod. The DC is often cited as too low so this enable it to increase with level once epic. The ability modifier could be based on the casting stat for the spell needed to enter the class but I feel DEX is appropriate because it is universal to archers and would reflect the AA's ability to put the arrow were it needs to go. Basically none of these changes would alter the class's "stat block" although they would offer some change to how things work. Perhaps the AA doesn't need access to all Simple and Martial Weapons but it shouldn't hurt much. The same can be said for the armor proficiencies and the Shield is also very appropriate as that is what you officially need to use a buckler. Never mind that masterwork bucklers can already be used by just about everyone because they have ACP 0. I could see adding Spellcraft to the skill list so I can identify when a target tries to cast a hostile spell that I'd like to "counter" by putting a readied arrow into them. Biggest dislike that is often suggested: adding spellcasting to the class. There are already plent of options avialable if you want to play a "gish" type character. The AA is a martial class which is most obvious with its +6 BAB prereq. It may have a minor spellcasting requirement to enter and Imbue Arrow offers some utility but with the other changes I suggest these are just the cost and a potential added benefit if entering the class with a little spellcasting. A wholesale change I'd consider for the class is mirroring it with an "Eldritch Archer" class. It would change the 1st level spell requirement into a lesser invocation and turn Imbue Arrow into something that replaces a Blast Shape and enables an Eldritch Blast to be carried by an arrow to its target. Those two changes plus the ones I suggested before and the Warlock can become one hell of an archer.
ff6shadow 02-21-08, 08:12 PM	I like to add Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft to ther skill list, use StevenO's idea of Arrow Trick, and make the DC on Death Arrow 10 + Class Level + Casting Stat, to match up with other prestige classes with similar abilities (see Assassin) but keep the DC from being rediculous by using Dex. I'd also add casting at 2nd, 5th, 7th, and 10th levels. Sure it isn't caster focused, but requiring magic then doing nothing to advance it doesn't make any sense. I provide minimal advancement even to the Dragon Disciple.
Cayzle 02-23-08, 07:47 PM	I disagree that the Arcane Archer even needs a boost. Two great saves, fighter BAB progression, d8s, 4 skill points per level, and sweet specials every level. What's not to love? Maybe you folks are not maxing it out like you should. There are several strategies to use with the AA, and you have to know what you are doing. I blogged about one such strat -- for an arcanist who wants a two-level dip -- in my recent blog post: http://www.cayzle.com/screeds/book062.html Over the next couple weeks I'll be posting two more strategies for the AA.
StevenO 02-23-08, 08:17 PM	While I'm happy with the AA as is some people DO have the opinion that it is terribly weak. I offer my suggestions as a way to improve the class with really changing the class (adding them midstream would probably add a little attack/damage for a character and offer a little more freedom with the arrow tricks but you wouldn't use a different build for it anyway) unlike the many who'd like to add all new abilites to the class which would completely change how you'd build for/with the class. The two biggest complaints about the AA are: 1. A single spell (Greater Magic Weapon) negates the main ability of the class. 2. IT DOESN'T IMPROVE MY SPELLCASTING! This is caused by the minor spell prereqs and the Imbue Arrow ability which some people can't seem to see any use for unless they can shoot Fireball arrows. The first of these problems can easily be addressed by the DM. Periodically losing the effect due to something like Dispel Magic suddenly means more resources need to be spent to maintain the ability the AA enjoys for free. The other thing about this is that using GMW does consume party spell power which maybe should be used for something else. By making the normal Enhanced Arrow bonus into an unnamed, and thus stackable, bonus you completely destroy this arguement as there is nothing but upside to the ability. The Spellcasting problem is one of mindset more than anything else. If you want to be a caster and are only looking at AA for Imbue Arrow then by all means only take a two level dip. For your troubles you also get some better saves, a few more hp, and unless the proficiencies change Martial Weapons which are good for entering the super Gish class known as Abjurant Champion. Even if spellcasting isn't the character's primary goal it is still possible to build into AA with enough spellcasting to make Imbue Arrow useful. The best AA build may be coming in from straight BattleSorcerer8; this can get you 4th level spells to imbue. Other ways to get some spellcasting prior to entering AA at 11th level or sooner include Duskblade and builds using Abjurant Chamion; Ftr4/Wiz2/AbC4 gets you casting level up to 6th (that's fireball range) while allowing a full AA progression granted I'd pick up AbC5 before finishing AA. Now all of these builds are BAB heavy and can make some use of Imbue Arrow without the need to give them more spellcasting in AA itself. Personnally, I'm often fine just meeting the minimal spellcasting requirements and completely ignoring the Imbue Arrow ability all together; without Imbue Arrow I imagine half the calls for improved spellcasting from AA would disappear.
ragoftag 02-24-08, 09:56 AM	Cayzle said: I disagree that the Arcane Archer even needs a boost. Two great saves, fighter BAB progression, d8s, 4 skill points per level, and sweet specials every level. What's not to love?Its not so much good vs. bad, IMHO, but how to make the PrC better. As per RAW, AA is an odd duck for several reasons. As I first posited, gifting the AA with the whole load of Martial weapons annoys me. Personally, I am happy no one disagrees. Next, I have problems with the 'medium armor and all shields' blessing that just does not fit into the fluff of the class. It seems that PrC writers aren't always paying attention to the trivial GIFTS they pass out. I had a player point out this out to me in planning his character's planned progression. I have other, even pettier, gripes. The idea is to dredge up some thoughts on making it better. Lawkeeper agreed on weapon & armor proficiencies and had good points on varying the levels and adding Spellcraft and Know(Arcana). The whole 'give five "+1 arcane spellcasting level" along the way, maybe on odd levels' worries me, but I await others' input. StevenO's 'Change Enhanced Arrow benefit to an unnamed bonus thus enabling it to stack with a magical bow' rocked me, having not played an AA since 3.0, I didn't know it was changed. Adding 'non-magical arrows fired by AA overcome DR/magic; an epic Arcane Archer (AA11, character level 21+) overcomes DR/epic with any non-magical arrow fired' also works. Ditto "Arrow Tricks" Adding 'extra' tricks or uses per day or encounter every two levels past 8th is an option I like. His 'Change DC for Arrow of Death' eludes my experience, never played one at that level. His "Eldritch Archer" line of thought has merit and I look forward to further posts. Once again, thx to all who post!:w00t:
Cayzle 02-24-08, 11:36 AM	Oh, I see. Ways to make the prestige class better without changing the power balance. Okay, I agree that proficiency with all martial weapons is a bit much. I would suggest all simple weapons and all bows. A pure wizard who takes this PrC should gain proficiency in the most basic weapons. I agree that the class skill list should include Concentration, Spellcraft, and Know (Arcana). I think that shield proficiency makes sense since you can use a buckler without penalty while using a bow, too. I would keep that. An Arcanist with a mithril shield suffers a 0% arcane spell failure. These changes improve the class but do not alter the power balance.
StevenO 02-24-08, 01:36 PM	A funny thing about changing the weapon proficiencies from "All Simple and Martial" to just "All Simple Weapons and Bows" is that the second really doesn't add anything to the character. Elves are already proficient with Bows (I assume "bows" excludes exotic weapons.) which only leave Half-Elves as the only eligable class that doesn't get Bows for free; in this case they'd already be proficient with one type of bow to meet the prereqs so all they'd be gaining is proficiency with the other type (long vs short) with that change. Removing Martial Weapons from the class may prevent some classes from gaining those proficiencies with a dip into AA (which isn't exactly cheap) but casters pay dearly for with what will most likely be two casting levels. By the time a wizard could dip into AA for the weapon proficiencies they could have already dipped into Dragonslayer for the same weapons plus ALL armors/shields and not given up a casting level to do so. I've already mentioned why Shield Proficiency should stay. Sure many people use masterwork bucklers without proficiency or problems but that doesn't mean it is the correct way to use them. On the Death Arrow DC. While DC 20 (the standard form) is OK at 15th or 16th level there is no way to improve it directly that I can think of and then it doesn't stack. At that same level an arcane caster's "death magic" can come from level 8 spells backed up by their casting stat requiring a save DC = 10 (base) + 8 (spell level) + 4 (minimum casting mod to cast 8th level spells) = 22. You see how the Death Arrow already trails what a single spell can do and that is before you consider all the other factors that can increase a spell's DC. I originally had considered changing Death Arrow's DC to 10 + AA level but at that level it starts going up way too fast in epic when saves only increase at the rate of +1/2 levels which is why I went to 15 + half AA levels.
ff6shadow 02-24-08, 10:54 PM	Typically, Epic prestige classses slow the progression of class based save effects. I didn't mention that in my first post. Assassin's Death attack Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) Propesed Arcane Archer Death Arrows Fortitude save (DC 10 + the arcane archer’s class level + the arcane archer's casting stat modifier). Epic Assassin's Death Attack The assassin counts only half his or her class levels beyond 10th when determining the DC to resist this attack. Proposed Epic Arcane Archer Death Arrow The arcane archer counts only half his or her class levels beyond 10th when determining the DC to resist this attack.
StevenO 02-24-08, 11:10 PM	There is a little difference between the Assassin's Death Attack and the AA's Arrow of Death to begin with. The Assassin gets its Death Attack early so 10 + level has some meaning pre-epic. The AA doesn't get its Arrow of Death until 10th level so there really isn't any pre-epic DC problems to worry about. That is why I simply use DC = 15 + 1/2 AA level which functions just like mentioned about except it is MUCH simpler.
runestar 02-24-08, 11:32 PM	1b. Add that non-magical arrows fired by AA overcome DR/magic; an epic Arcane Archer (AA11, character level 21+) overcomes DR/epic with any non-magical arrow fired. Doesn't this seem redundant? Arrows fired by a 1st lv AA is already +1, so it automatically overcomes dr/magic. At AA11, its arrows are +6 (since the bonuses continue to improve by +1 every 2 lvs), so it will overcome dr/epic anyways. Why should a dedicated ranged combat specialist be forced to learn to use Scythes? Shields? I think these should be dumped and replaced with Animated +5 steel shields.:D I would improve the rate of use of its special arrow attacks to maybe 1/encounter? Considering giving the AA its own spell list (like the 3.0 bladesinger), and maybe waiving the spellcasting requirement altogether. That said, the justice of weald and woe prc in champions of ruin seems to make for a decent AA variant.:)
StevenO 02-25-08, 01:09 AM	Stating that the AA overcome DR/magic at 1st level and DR/epic at 11th when firing non-magical arrow is NOT redundant IF you change the normal enhancement bonus to an unnamed (and thus stackable) bonus to attack and damage.
ff6shadow 02-25-08, 01:17 AM	There is a little difference between the Assassin's Death Attack and the AA's Arrow of Death to begin with. The Assassin gets its Death Attack early so 10 + level has some meaning pre-epic. The AA doesn't get its Arrow of Death until 10th level so there really isn't any pre-epic DC problems to worry about. That is why I simply use DC = 15 + 1/2 AA level which functions just like mentioned about except it is MUCH simpler. I just use the other method for the mechanical simplicity.
Lawkeeper 02-25-08, 04:58 AM	Lawkeeper agreed on weapon & armor proficiencies and had good points on varying the levels and adding Spellcraft and Know(Arcana). The whole 'give five "+1 arcane spellcasting level" along the way, maybe on odd levels' worries me, but I await others' input. Actually, I prefer the reduction to a five-level class. I just don't have much more ideas for a "long" class. Regarding the two-lvl dip in the class that StevenO advocates : that's precisely the reason why the class has to be reworked. A CdP that is not worth going through all its levels is not really worth the trouble. Imbue Arrow is a tricky ability. Either you're a true caster, and plan to use it well - in which case you don't need the arrow enhancements (go greater magic weapon), and have the means of mimicking the other abilities with spells (or cheap weapon enhancements). Or you're an archer first, in which case you don't have many spells - and not higher than 1st-lvl ; some of them are useful, right, but many more useful are of higher level, and you still suffer from low DCs (a DC11+AbMod won't do much - and don't even think about sleep or color spray, with their HD limits), so in the end this ability won't do much. I'd agree with runestar: giving it its own spell list might be ok too, for the 10-lvl long.
Cayzle 02-25-08, 07:07 AM	Great comments here, many of which have influenced my own opinions. (1) I still agree that Know Arcana, Spellcraft, and Concentration should be class skills for the Arcane Archer. (2) I now think that letting the AA have both shield proficiency and all martial weapon proficiency is a good idea. The rules give these out like candy to all fighter-type classes (those with +1 BAB each level), so it is not like it is an unbalancer. One argument is that in D&D worlds, it is relatively easy to learn to use all martial weapons, so any class trained in fighting picks up weapon use as gravy. Besides, if the Wizard12/AA2 wants to use his proficiency in all martial weapons to branch into Eldritch Knight, more power to him. That is not a game breaker. [Edit: The argument "Why should the prestige class force a character to learn scythes and hammers" seems specious to me. A halfling ranger with a sling or a paladin with lance and sword might say the same thing. That's just the way the game is. You can choose not to use such weapons and ignore your ability to use them (nobody uses all the weapons they know). So what's the big deal?] (3a) Imbue Arrow is very useful even to an arcane archer with only one or two levels of mage for one reason: Grease! If your target fails the save (unlikey at high level), then it fall, which is fine. If the target makes the save (likely), then per the spell, it has to make Balance checks to stay up. Per the Balance skill description, if you are in a situation that requires Balance checks, and you do not have five ranks in Balance, then you LOSE your Dex Bonus! This makes it easier for our AA to hit on later attacks, and even better, the party rogue can now SNEAK ATTACK the target! (3b) Imbue Arrow is of course useful to the dedicated arcanist who takes a two-level dip. But it is also useful to at least one character who takes the full ten levels of AA. Bard10/AA10 is a powerful build that uses Imbue Arrow with spells like Grease (to put foes off balance), Glitterdust (outlines sneaks), Silence (vs casters), Calm Emotions, Confusion, Crushing Despair, Shout, etc. Tell me that's not worthwhile! (4) The +1 enhancement bonus that increases at odd levels is a keeper as is. Here's why. Say you had the cash to use a +5 (equivalent) bow and +5 (equivalent) arrows. Since enhancement bonuses don't stack in 3.5, you would be best served to pump all your actual enhancement bonuses into one weapon and all your extra dice of damage (holy, shocking, bane, flaming) into the other. Enhance Arrow gives you the pumped up enhancement bonus for free, so you can spend your cash on further pumping extra dice of damage into your bow. Making Enhance Arrow an unnamed bonus does no good because you can only use Enhance Arrow on nonmagic arrows. If it were an unnamed bonus you could use a +5 (enhanced) bow and +5 (unnamed) arrows for a +10 with no bonus damage dice. To which I say Bzzzzt! Nobody gets +10 with weapons alone. Too bogus. Too powerful. (Yeah, yeah, you could get a +10 (equivalent) with a +5 weapon and (say) divine favor and a friendly bard, but I still say it is bogus.) (5) Treating the Death Arrow save exactly like the Assassin and Epic Assassin is a great idea!
StevenO 02-25-08, 02:11 PM	Regarding the two-lvl dip in the class that StevenO advocates : that's precisely the reason why the class has to be reworked. A CdP that is not worth going through all its levels is not really worth the trouble. I take it you would NEVER suggest a PrC like the Spellsword then as its most popular uses are a one or three level dip. Giving AA half casting increases would make it a very popular "dip" class. Take two levels to pick up Imbue Arrow, a casting increase, and all martial weapons and then feel free to go find something else. Great comments here, many of which have influenced my own opinions. (4) The +1 enhancement bonus that increases at odd levels is a keeper as is. Here's why. Say you had the cash to use a +5 (equivalent) bow and +5 (equivalent) arrows. Since enhancement bonuses don't stack in 3.5, you would be best served to pump all your actual enhancement bonuses into one weapon and all your extra dice of damage (holy, shocking, bane, flaming) into the other. Enhance Arrow gives you the pumped up enhancement bonus for free, so you can spend your cash on further pumping extra dice of damage into your bow. Making Enhance Arrow an unnamed bonus does no good because you can only use Enhance Arrow on nonmagic arrows. If it were an unnamed bonus you could use a +5 (enhanced) bow and +5 (unnamed) arrows for a +10 with no bonus damage dice. To which I say Bzzzzt! Nobody gets +10 with weapons alone. Too bogus. Too powerful. (Yeah, yeah, you could get a +10 (equivalent) with a +5 weapon and (say) divine favor and a friendly bard, but I still say it is bogus.) ! I can that changing the normal enhancment to an unnamed attack and damage increase IS crazy powerful because of the stacking potential but it would certainly be a way to promote the class without giving it spellcasting. In a way making the bonus untype is effectively giving the AA a limited feat every other level that reads "Arrow attacks are at +1 attack and damage." Even with that small but significant change some would still think the class needs something else.
Lawkeeper 02-25-08, 04:37 PM	I take it you would NEVER suggest a PrC like the Spellsword then as its most popular uses are a one or three level dip. Giving AA half casting increases would make it a very popular "dip" class. Take two levels to pick up Imbue Arrow, a casting increase, and all martial weapons and then feel free to go find something else. You got me wrong. I don't say it's a bad move on the player's part of taking what's the most effective. The system is in its state, for good or worse, seeking efficiency is not in itself wrong. I don't refrain of suggesting one-level dips, either - because it's often the most efficient way. What I meant, is that the CdP should be worth being taken from the beginning to the end, and not being able to reap all the benefits in one or two levels. Spellsword is a bad PrC in that sense too - not because it's not efficient to dip, but because those who go through its ten levels are not giving sensibly more than those dipping just for two levels. Eh, regarding Spellsword, I'd even probably take only one level, to be able to take three in, say, Duskblade, and still get level 9 wizard spells, or two levels in Paladin with a sorcerer. It'd be really efficient, sure, but it's "bad". Or find me the last one taking more than the first level of Mindbender, on a similar note. What would otherwise be superb classes are sadly designed. On the altar of balance, their attractability is sacrificed by the athame of anti-optimization (or anti-munchkin sometimes), and their corpse is butchered by the optimizers (and anyone wishing reap a decent share of benefits). PrCs are meant to be taken to the end. That's what they are : Prestige Classes. People should be proud of their achievements in them, and not shop-dip to tailor their ideal set of abilities that no single PrC could ever give without giving an LA "for balance's sake".
StevenO 02-25-08, 07:13 PM	Even as written the AA can be worth taking to the end. Doing so doesn't maximize Imbue Arrow in any way but the class is about getting the Enhancement Bonus for your cheap arrow allowing a character to concentrate speical abilites on their bow. I know all about the Greater Magic Weapon >> AA's Enhance Arrow ability arguement but that is easy enough to fix. Perhaps the best reason to take AA to the end is because taking AA11 as your first epic level all but ensures you have the capacity to overcome DR/epic whenever the need arises. The idea of Prestige Classes actually being "prestigous" died a long time ago. Vanilla PrC such as the Eldritch Knight are required for some character concepts to have a shot a working and too many others are fine in relative isolation but become insane when other classes and abilities start getting thrown into the mix. Even by the time 3.5 first came out all the PrC had evolved into is a new skill set to be used in character construction.
runestar 02-27-08, 06:37 AM	The idea of Prestige Classes actually being "prestigous" died a long time ago. I would say that this is a concept that should never even have been mooted in the first place. IMO, they are just means to an end, to allow a player to customize his build and get the exact abilities he wants. For example, I fail to see how a melee build utilizing 6 core+prestige classes is any less of a fighter than a fighter20. In the very least, I don't see the difference. Perhaps it was simply a naming error, but I felt that the term "prestige" did more harm than good. :(
Chrono Nexus 02-27-08, 06:49 AM	Not that any of my players will pursue it, but I would just replace the arcane archer with the duskblade, and include certain a.a. features as feats (imbue arrow, fe).
StevenO 02-27-08, 11:05 AM	The term "advanced class" is probably far more appropriate than "Prestige Class" for many of them at least. The few PrCs that may deserve that title are the ones that have additional, DM controlled, prereqs which effectively give the DM an added layer of control should the players push because PrCs are allowed.
Gadren 02-27-08, 04:31 PM	I created a class with a similar feel for my last campaign that largely replaced the craptastic Arcane Archer. Called the Treeshield Clan Sentinel: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=832086&highlight=treeshield Check it out...
ragoftag 02-28-08, 08:55 AM	Thanks to one and all for commentary! Can anyone provide a link to the alternate Base Class AA that appeared on these boards of late? And I add my voice to those of StevenO and Runestar on 'Prestige' Classes. Guess Hasbro/WotC still can't afford a Thesaurus!:rolleyes:
Khazzan 03-03-08, 01:53 PM	Thanks to one and all for commentary! Can anyone provide a link to the alternate Base Class AA that appeared on these boards of late? And I add my voice to those of StevenO and Runestar on 'Prestige' Classes. Guess Hasbro/WotC still can't afford a Thesaurus!:rolleyes: was it this one (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=741997)? EDIT: or maybe this one (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=984066&highlight=archer), actually (more recent).
ragoftag 03-03-08, 07:58 PM	The second one! Thanks from the kahmpootur eelitrate!
I_roll_ones 03-03-08, 08:16 PM	I dunno, I think the idea of an arcane archer is sorta...Meh. Aren't many ranged arcane spells touch attacks anyway? So without a big investment into archery/dexterity, simply tossing out a touch ranged spell might work better. But what of an archer class for the supposed archer, the ranger? Which is why I sorta like one of the linked prestige classes here, it allowed for a ranger/arcane caster. I didn't go over it, but I liked the idea.