Arcane Archer variant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Archer variant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Laszlo Koller
03-28-04, 12:55 PM In an effort to recify the current state of the arcane archer which in my opinion has become an severely underpowered prestige class, I've come up with the following variant for the arcane archer. In my campaign, I'm planning on using this alternate prestige class in order to replace the one found in the Dungeon Master's Guide (v3.5). Using the PrC found in the DMG as my starting point and the elven Bladesinger prestige class (found in the Races of Faerun sourcebook) as a template, I've made every effort to balance this variant PrC and tried to avoid creating an overpowered or uber-prestige class.

I look forward to reading your objective critiques. The class follows below.
Laszlo Koller
03-28-04, 12:56 PM ARCANE ARCHER
Master of elven warbands, the arcane archer is a warrior skilled in using magic to supplement her combat prowess. Beyond the woods, arcane archers gain renown throughout entire kingdoms for their supernatural accuracy with the bow and their ability to imbue arrows with magic. In a group, they can strike fear into an entire enemy army.
Fighters, rangers, paladins, and barbarians become arcane archers to add a little magic to their combat abilities. Conversely, wizards and sorcerers may take this prestige class to add combat capabilities to their repertoire. Monks, clerics, druids, rogues, and bards rarely become arcane archers.
NPC arcane archers often lead units of normal archers or form small, elite units formed entirely of arcane archers. These units are one of prime reasons that the elves are so feared in battle.
Hit Die: d8.

REQUIREMENTS
To qualify to become an arcane archer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Elf or half-elf.
Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow).
Spells: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells.

CLASS SKILLS
The arcane archer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Hide (Dex). Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

CLASS FEATURES
All of the following are Class Features of the arcane archer prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An arcane archer gains no weapon or shield proficiency but does gain proficiency with light armor. If the arcane archer wears medium or heavy armor, she loses all benefits of any of her bow abilities (enhance arrow, imbue arrow, composed stance, phase arrow, composed draw, evernocked bow, hail or arrows, and arrow of death).
An arcane archer suffers the normal arcane spell failure chance when casting spells while armored (except as noted below).
Spells: At each arcane archer level, the character gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells. She gains arcane spells per day according to Table 1–1 and must choose her spells from the arcane archer spell list, below. The arcane archer’s caster level is equal to her arcane archer level. To cast a spell, the arcane archer must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level. Arcane archer bonus spells are based on Intelligence, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + the arcane archer’s Intelligence modifier. When an arcane archer gets 0 spells of a given level, the arcane archer only gets bonus spells.
An arcane archer keeps a spellbook and must prepare spells each day as a wizard does. She can have any number of arcane archer spells in her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, Chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook). At levels 1st through 9th, an arcane archer gains two new spells of any level she can cast to add to her spellbook for free.
Bonus Feats (Ex): At 1st, 3rd, and 7th level, an arcane archer gets a bonus feat. She must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These feats must be drawn from the following list: any metamagic feat, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Far Shot, Improved Critical (longbow or shortbow), Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Mobility, Rapid Shot, and Shot on the Run.
Enhance Arrow (Su): At 1st level, every nonmagical arrow an arcane archer nocks and lets fly becomes magical, gaining a +1 enhancement bonus. Unlike magic weapons created by normal means, the archer need not spend experience points or gold pieces to accomplish this task. However, an archer’s magic arrows only function for her. At 5th level, all arrows she fires are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
Imbue Arrow (Sp): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.
Composed Stance (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, when wielding a longbow or shortbow only, an arcane archer can take 10 when making a Concentration check to cast defensively.
Phase Arrow (Sp): At 5th level, an arcane archer can launch an arrow once per day at a target known to her within range, and the arrow travels to the target in a straight path, passing through any nonmagical barrier or wall in its way. (Any magical barrier stops the arrow.) This ability negates cover, concealment, and even armor modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally. Using this ability is a standard action (and shooting the arrow is part of the action).
Composed Draw (Su): Starting at 6th level, an arcane archer ignores arcane spell failure.
Evernocked Bow (Ex): At 7th level, an arcane archer gains the ability to threaten nearby areas with her bow as if she were wielding a melee weapon. Her bow functions as a reach weapon, threatening anything 10 feet away but not immediately adjacent to her. Any attacks of opportunity she receives because she threatens nearby areas are normal ranged attacks, and these count against her maximum number of attacks of opportunity per round.
Hail of Arrows (Ex): In lieu of her regular attacks, once per day an arcane archer of 9th level or higher can fire an arrow at each and every target within range, to a maximum of one target for every arcane archer level she has earned. Each attack uses the archer’s primary attack bonus, and each enemy may only be targeted by a single arrow.
Arrow of Death (Sp): At 10th level, an arcane archer can create an arrow of death that forces the target, if damaged by the arrow’s attack, to make a DC 20 Fortitude save or be slain immediately. It takes one day to make an arrow of death, and the arrow only functions for the arcane archer who created it. The arrow of death lasts no longer than one year, and the archer can only have one such arrow in existence at a time.

ARCANE ARCHER SPELL LIST
Arcane archers choose their spells from the following list:
1st level—expeditious retreat, grease, mage armor, shield, true strike.
2nd level—blur, cat’s grace, entangle, melf’s acid arrow, mirror image.
3rd level—displacement, flame arrow, greater magic weapon, haste.
4th level—dimension door, evard’s black tentacles, greater invisibility, superior darkvision**.
** From the Forgotten Realms sourcebook: Unapproachable East.

TABLE 1–1: THE ARCANE ARCHER

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
1st +1 +0 +2 +2 Bonus feat, enhance arrow (+1) 1 – – –
2nd +2 +0 +3 +3 Imbue arrow 2 0* – –
3rd +3 +1 +3 +3 Bonus feat, composed stance 2 1 – –
4th +4 +1 +4 +4 3 2 0* –
5th +5 +1 +4 +4 Enhance arrow (adamantine), phase arrow 3 2 1 –
6th +6 +2 +5 +5 Composed draw 3 3 2 0*
7th +7 +2 +5 +5 Bonus feat, evernocked bow 4 3 2 1
8th +8 +2 +6 +6 4 3 3 2
9th +9 +3 +6 +6 Hail of arrows 4 4 3 2
10th +10 +3 +7 +7 Arrow of death 4 4 3 3

* Provided the arcane archer has sufficient Intelligence to have a bonus spell of this level.
ksbsnowowl
03-28-04, 01:13 PM Originally posted by Laszlo Koller
Evernocked Bow (Ex): At 7th level, an arcane archer gains the ability to threaten nearby areas with her bow as if she were wielding a melee weapon. Her bow functions as a reach weapon, threatening anything 10 feet away but not immediately adjacent to her. Any attacks of opportunity she receives because she threatens nearby areas are normal ranged attacks, and these count against her maximum number of attacks of opportunity per round. I don't think it's a good idea to steal this ability from another PrC (The Peerless Archer found in 'Silver Marches'). Giving this ability in addition to everything else you have added makes this PrC way too powerful.

Also note that the earliest that the Threaten ability can be gained through the PeerArch PrC is 15th character level. This could be gotten by 13th; perhaps not a big difference at first glance, but if you are going to steal one of the unique abilities of another PrC, I'd at least make it so you cannot gain the ability any earlier.

Truthfully, I'd say switch it out for something like Close Combat Shot (from OotBI and CW's EWM) and the class would be much closer to being balanced (although it would probably need a little more toning down, just my opinion). Leave the Threatening to the Peerless Archer.

However, if you are dead-set on having this ability in the PrC, at least push it back to 9th level so that this class can't gain it sooner that with the original class to which it belongs.

edit: grammer
Laszlo Koller
03-28-04, 01:48 PM Actually, if my arithmatic is correct, you'd get the Evernocked Bow ability as a 14th level character: 1 Wiz + 6 Ftr + 7 Arcane Archer. So that's only 1 level sooner than the Peerless Archer.

However, if you're against me "harvesting" an ability from Peerless Archer, then I must ask you what's the difference between an ability from the Peerless Archer and one from another PrC, like OotBI (Order of the Bow Initiate, I'm assuming)?

I'm not trying to antagonize you, I'm just trying to understand your point-of-view.

You also mention:
...it would probably need a little more toning down...
Would you please elaborate on this? I'd love to hear why you think that this variant PrC is overpowered.

By the way, thank you for taking the time to review the PrC and comment on it. I always welcome a healthy debate regarding any topic... it helps shake the bugs out.
ksbsnowowl
03-28-04, 03:37 PM You're right about it being 14th level; I forgot to add the Wiz level in when I was adding up the levels.Originally posted by Laszlo Koller
However, if you're against me "harvesting" an ability from Peerless Archer, then I must ask you what's the difference between an ability from the Peerless Archer and one from another PrC, like OotBI (Order of the Bow Initiate, I'm assuming)? The uniqueness and power of the ability. The close combat shot ability is relatively common - you can get it from either version of the Order of the Bow Initiate, Complete Warrior's Exotic Weapon Master, or as an epic feat. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice ability to have (especially when facing foes with reach), but in the end it's really not that powerful 'cause you can usually just take a 5 ft step away from someone and take your full attack without provoking an AoO.

The threatening, on the other hand, is exceptionally powerful. If NPC's are being role-played properly they'll have no idea that they'll provoke an AoO when they close to attack the archer. Pair it with Combat Reflexes and your archer can be making 7+ Attacks of Opportunity each round. Also, there is no method other than Peerless Archer in WotC published books to get that ability.

I'm not trying to antagonize you, I'm just trying to understand your point-of-view. That's cool. I never even thought you were trying to do that.

Would you please elaborate on [toning it down]? I'd love to hear why you think that this variant PrC is overpowered.Well, lets have a look at everything it gets:
-Full +1 BAB
-What equates to full-progression (2nd level spells at 3rd, 3rd level spells at 5th, etc) arcane spellcasting
-A powerful arcane spell list (True Strike, Blur, Haste, Displacement, Greater Magic Weapon, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility)
-A warrior's hit die (d8)
-2 good saves
-3 bonus feats
-A good skill list (including Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival)
-Take 10 on concentration
-Ability to ignore arcane spell failure
-The standard AA stuff (arrows that by-pass DR, Imbue Arrow, Phase Arrow, Hail of Arrows, Arrow of Death)
-Plus (right now, at least) the Threaten ability

Now, compare this to the 3.0 OotBI (which some people, and apparently even WotC, found overpowered):
-Full +1 BAB
-A warrior's hit die (d10)
-2 good saves
-Sneak attack
-Close Combat Shot
-3 pre-picked bonus feats (Grt Weap Foc, Grt Weap Spec, Zen Archery)
-A crappy skill list (basically the same as the fighter's)
-Free Attack
-Banked Shot

They have the same BAB, the OotBI has a slightly better hit die (avg difference of 10 hp's over ten levels), they both have two good saves, and they both get 3 bonus feats. Now lets make a few comparisons:

Free Attack is equivacable to Hail of Arrows; Given that you can't flank with a ranged weapon, the OotBI's sneak attack is about on balance with DR-negating arrows, Arrow of Death, and Phase Arrow all together; Given it's a full-round action and of limited use, I'd say Banked Shot equals out the discreptency between skill lists and your AA's ability to take 10 on concentration checks.

As I mentioned before, the Threatening ability is much more powerful than Close Combat Shot.

So, on top of all that, you have full-progression arcane casting with a good fighter-type spell list and the ability to ignore Arcane Spell Failure.

By the way, thank you for taking the time to review the PrC and comment on it. I always welcome a healthy debate regarding any topic... it helps shake the bugs out. Hey, no prob. And please don't take this post as an attack on you; I'm just trying to help you see why I think it's too powerful.

Edit: Bah! My grammer is horrible today.
NightScreamer20
03-28-04, 04:51 PM Hmm..if anything that I can see...

Change HD to a d6 and BAB to medium (as bard/cleric/druid/rogue)

That's my 2 cents...
Laszlo Koller
03-28-04, 05:09 PM OK. Well I definitely see where you're coming from. I have to assume then that you think the Bladesinger PrC as presented in the Races of Faerun sourcebook is also overpowered. (If you compare my PrC variant with that class you'll notice the considerable similarities including BAB, saves, spell prgression, spell list, and number of special abilities.)

Here's what I had in mind when designing this PrC:

I wanted to put the arcane back into the arcane archer--which is why I included a limited spell list
I wanted to keep the flavor of the original PrC (the one found in the DMG) including their expertise with the bow--hence the good BAB and the specialty archer abilities
I wanted to make an archer equivalent of the Bladesinger PrC--which is where I got some of the other special abilities

I guess perhaps I went too far. One thing I would like to mention is that although the spell list does include the good spells, keep in mind when the arcane archer finally gets access to them, he is facing spells (from NPCs or monsters) that are more powerful than the 1st-level standard ones that he's getting to use for the first time. Remember, the 1st level arcane archer is an 8th level character, and as such he faces 4th-level spells from 8th level enemy spellcasters.

Do you have any suggestions on how to "tone down" the class in order to make it more balanced? (I guess use the Bladesinger as your yardstick.)

Would dropping one bonus feat and dropping the good BAB to an average BAB help? Would dropping the arcane spell failure ability help? Or would more be needed? What would you consider to be a reasonable replacement for the threaten ability? (I don't have any books that review the specifics of the close combat shot ability, so I'm not sure what ability it grants a character.)

Thanks.
ksbsnowowl
03-28-04, 06:13 PM Sorry, don't have Races of Faerun. How does that blade singer compare to the one in Tome and Blood? (I know the T&&B one was errata'd; I'll have to find it on the site). So, I might not be able to use that as a yardstick.

I have no doubt that your intentions were (and still are) good.

About the spells, although they will be 'behind the power curve' once the PC gets them, many of them are the types that boost and do not require/give a saving throw. They still serve their function no matter the level of the opponents.

I think if you dropped the first bonus feat, dropped the arcane spell failure negation, and changed everknocked bow (threaten) to close combat shot, you'd be good. Although I do see that the Arcane Spell Failure negation is important for the spells to not fail on a regular basis. Maybe if you dropped something else instead? But I don't really know what.

Oh, and Close Combat Shot allows the archer to no longer provoke AoO's for shooting his ranged weapon while threatened in melee.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Laszlo Koller 03-28-04, 12:55 PM	In an effort to recify the current state of the arcane archer which in my opinion has become an severely underpowered prestige class, I've come up with the following variant for the arcane archer. In my campaign, I'm planning on using this alternate prestige class in order to replace the one found in the Dungeon Master's Guide (v3.5). Using the PrC found in the DMG as my starting point and the elven Bladesinger prestige class (found in the Races of Faerun sourcebook) as a template, I've made every effort to balance this variant PrC and tried to avoid creating an overpowered or uber-prestige class. I look forward to reading your objective critiques. The class follows below.
Laszlo Koller 03-28-04, 12:56 PM	ARCANE ARCHER Master of elven warbands, the arcane archer is a warrior skilled in using magic to supplement her combat prowess. Beyond the woods, arcane archers gain renown throughout entire kingdoms for their supernatural accuracy with the bow and their ability to imbue arrows with magic. In a group, they can strike fear into an entire enemy army. Fighters, rangers, paladins, and barbarians become arcane archers to add a little magic to their combat abilities. Conversely, wizards and sorcerers may take this prestige class to add combat capabilities to their repertoire. Monks, clerics, druids, rogues, and bards rarely become arcane archers. NPC arcane archers often lead units of normal archers or form small, elite units formed entirely of arcane archers. These units are one of prime reasons that the elves are so feared in battle. Hit Die: d8. REQUIREMENTS To qualify to become an arcane archer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Race: Elf or half-elf. Base Attack Bonus: +6. Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow). Spells: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells. CLASS SKILLS The arcane archer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Hide (Dex). Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex). Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier. CLASS FEATURES All of the following are Class Features of the arcane archer prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An arcane archer gains no weapon or shield proficiency but does gain proficiency with light armor. If the arcane archer wears medium or heavy armor, she loses all benefits of any of her bow abilities (enhance arrow, imbue arrow, composed stance, phase arrow, composed draw, evernocked bow, hail or arrows, and arrow of death). An arcane archer suffers the normal arcane spell failure chance when casting spells while armored (except as noted below). Spells: At each arcane archer level, the character gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells. She gains arcane spells per day according to Table 1–1 and must choose her spells from the arcane archer spell list, below. The arcane archer’s caster level is equal to her arcane archer level. To cast a spell, the arcane archer must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level. Arcane archer bonus spells are based on Intelligence, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + the arcane archer’s Intelligence modifier. When an arcane archer gets 0 spells of a given level, the arcane archer only gets bonus spells. An arcane archer keeps a spellbook and must prepare spells each day as a wizard does. She can have any number of arcane archer spells in her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, Chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook). At levels 1st through 9th, an arcane archer gains two new spells of any level she can cast to add to her spellbook for free. Bonus Feats (Ex): At 1st, 3rd, and 7th level, an arcane archer gets a bonus feat. She must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These feats must be drawn from the following list: any metamagic feat, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Far Shot, Improved Critical (longbow or shortbow), Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Mobility, Rapid Shot, and Shot on the Run. Enhance Arrow (Su): At 1st level, every nonmagical arrow an arcane archer nocks and lets fly becomes magical, gaining a +1 enhancement bonus. Unlike magic weapons created by normal means, the archer need not spend experience points or gold pieces to accomplish this task. However, an archer’s magic arrows only function for her. At 5th level, all arrows she fires are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness. Imbue Arrow (Sp): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted. Composed Stance (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, when wielding a longbow or shortbow only, an arcane archer can take 10 when making a Concentration check to cast defensively. Phase Arrow (Sp): At 5th level, an arcane archer can launch an arrow once per day at a target known to her within range, and the arrow travels to the target in a straight path, passing through any nonmagical barrier or wall in its way. (Any magical barrier stops the arrow.) This ability negates cover, concealment, and even armor modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally. Using this ability is a standard action (and shooting the arrow is part of the action). Composed Draw (Su): Starting at 6th level, an arcane archer ignores arcane spell failure. Evernocked Bow (Ex): At 7th level, an arcane archer gains the ability to threaten nearby areas with her bow as if she were wielding a melee weapon. Her bow functions as a reach weapon, threatening anything 10 feet away but not immediately adjacent to her. Any attacks of opportunity she receives because she threatens nearby areas are normal ranged attacks, and these count against her maximum number of attacks of opportunity per round. Hail of Arrows (Ex): In lieu of her regular attacks, once per day an arcane archer of 9th level or higher can fire an arrow at each and every target within range, to a maximum of one target for every arcane archer level she has earned. Each attack uses the archer’s primary attack bonus, and each enemy may only be targeted by a single arrow. Arrow of Death (Sp): At 10th level, an arcane archer can create an arrow of death that forces the target, if damaged by the arrow’s attack, to make a DC 20 Fortitude save or be slain immediately. It takes one day to make an arrow of death, and the arrow only functions for the arcane archer who created it. The arrow of death lasts no longer than one year, and the archer can only have one such arrow in existence at a time. ARCANE ARCHER SPELL LIST Arcane archers choose their spells from the following list: 1st level—expeditious retreat, grease, mage armor, shield, true strike. 2nd level—blur, cat’s grace, entangle, melf’s acid arrow, mirror image. 3rd level—displacement, flame arrow, greater magic weapon, haste. 4th level—dimension door, evard’s black tentacles, greater invisibility, superior darkvision. From the Forgotten Realms sourcebook: Unapproachable East. TABLE 1–1: THE ARCANE ARCHER Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 1st +1 +0 +2 +2 Bonus feat, enhance arrow (+1) 1 – – – 2nd +2 +0 +3 +3 Imbue arrow 2 0* – – 3rd +3 +1 +3 +3 Bonus feat, composed stance 2 1 – – 4th +4 +1 +4 +4 3 2 0* – 5th +5 +1 +4 +4 Enhance arrow (adamantine), phase arrow 3 2 1 – 6th +6 +2 +5 +5 Composed draw 3 3 2 0* 7th +7 +2 +5 +5 Bonus feat, evernocked bow 4 3 2 1 8th +8 +2 +6 +6 4 3 3 2 9th +9 +3 +6 +6 Hail of arrows 4 4 3 2 10th +10 +3 +7 +7 Arrow of death 4 4 3 3 * Provided the arcane archer has sufficient Intelligence to have a bonus spell of this level.
ksbsnowowl 03-28-04, 01:13 PM	Originally posted by Laszlo Koller Evernocked Bow (Ex): At 7th level, an arcane archer gains the ability to threaten nearby areas with her bow as if she were wielding a melee weapon. Her bow functions as a reach weapon, threatening anything 10 feet away but not immediately adjacent to her. Any attacks of opportunity she receives because she threatens nearby areas are normal ranged attacks, and these count against her maximum number of attacks of opportunity per round. I don't think it's a good idea to steal this ability from another PrC (The Peerless Archer found in 'Silver Marches'). Giving this ability in addition to everything else you have added makes this PrC way too powerful. Also note that the earliest that the Threaten ability can be gained through the PeerArch PrC is 15th character level. This could be gotten by 13th; perhaps not a big difference at first glance, but if you are going to steal one of the unique abilities of another PrC, I'd at least make it so you cannot gain the ability any earlier. Truthfully, I'd say switch it out for something like Close Combat Shot (from OotBI and CW's EWM) and the class would be much closer to being balanced (although it would probably need a little more toning down, just my opinion). Leave the Threatening to the Peerless Archer. However, if you are dead-set on having this ability in the PrC, at least push it back to 9th level so that this class can't gain it sooner that with the original class to which it belongs. edit: grammer
Laszlo Koller 03-28-04, 01:48 PM	Actually, if my arithmatic is correct, you'd get the Evernocked Bow ability as a 14th level character: 1 Wiz + 6 Ftr + 7 Arcane Archer. So that's only 1 level sooner than the Peerless Archer. However, if you're against me "harvesting" an ability from Peerless Archer, then I must ask you what's the difference between an ability from the Peerless Archer and one from another PrC, like OotBI (Order of the Bow Initiate, I'm assuming)? I'm not trying to antagonize you, I'm just trying to understand your point-of-view. You also mention: ...it would probably need a little more toning down... Would you please elaborate on this? I'd love to hear why you think that this variant PrC is overpowered. By the way, thank you for taking the time to review the PrC and comment on it. I always welcome a healthy debate regarding any topic... it helps shake the bugs out.
ksbsnowowl 03-28-04, 03:37 PM	You're right about it being 14th level; I forgot to add the Wiz level in when I was adding up the levels.Originally posted by Laszlo Koller However, if you're against me "harvesting" an ability from Peerless Archer, then I must ask you what's the difference between an ability from the Peerless Archer and one from another PrC, like OotBI (Order of the Bow Initiate, I'm assuming)? The uniqueness and power of the ability. The close combat shot ability is relatively common - you can get it from either version of the Order of the Bow Initiate, Complete Warrior's Exotic Weapon Master, or as an epic feat. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice ability to have (especially when facing foes with reach), but in the end it's really not that powerful 'cause you can usually just take a 5 ft step away from someone and take your full attack without provoking an AoO. The threatening, on the other hand, is exceptionally powerful. If NPC's are being role-played properly they'll have no idea that they'll provoke an AoO when they close to attack the archer. Pair it with Combat Reflexes and your archer can be making 7+ Attacks of Opportunity each round. Also, there is no method other than Peerless Archer in WotC published books to get that ability. I'm not trying to antagonize you, I'm just trying to understand your point-of-view. That's cool. I never even thought you were trying to do that. Would you please elaborate on [toning it down]? I'd love to hear why you think that this variant PrC is overpowered.Well, lets have a look at everything it gets: -Full +1 BAB -What equates to full-progression (2nd level spells at 3rd, 3rd level spells at 5th, etc) arcane spellcasting -A powerful arcane spell list (True Strike, Blur, Haste, Displacement, Greater Magic Weapon, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility) -A warrior's hit die (d8) -2 good saves -3 bonus feats -A good skill list (including Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival) -Take 10 on concentration -Ability to ignore arcane spell failure -The standard AA stuff (arrows that by-pass DR, Imbue Arrow, Phase Arrow, Hail of Arrows, Arrow of Death) -Plus (right now, at least) the Threaten ability Now, compare this to the 3.0 OotBI (which some people, and apparently even WotC, found overpowered): -Full +1 BAB -A warrior's hit die (d10) -2 good saves -Sneak attack -Close Combat Shot -3 pre-picked bonus feats (Grt Weap Foc, Grt Weap Spec, Zen Archery) -A crappy skill list (basically the same as the fighter's) -Free Attack -Banked Shot They have the same BAB, the OotBI has a slightly better hit die (avg difference of 10 hp's over ten levels), they both have two good saves, and they both get 3 bonus feats. Now lets make a few comparisons: Free Attack is equivacable to Hail of Arrows; Given that you can't flank with a ranged weapon, the OotBI's sneak attack is about on balance with DR-negating arrows, Arrow of Death, and Phase Arrow all together; Given it's a full-round action and of limited use, I'd say Banked Shot equals out the discreptency between skill lists and your AA's ability to take 10 on concentration checks. As I mentioned before, the Threatening ability is much more powerful than Close Combat Shot. So, on top of all that, you have full-progression arcane casting with a good fighter-type spell list and the ability to ignore Arcane Spell Failure. By the way, thank you for taking the time to review the PrC and comment on it. I always welcome a healthy debate regarding any topic... it helps shake the bugs out. Hey, no prob. And please don't take this post as an attack on you; I'm just trying to help you see why I think it's too powerful. Edit: Bah! My grammer is horrible today.
NightScreamer20 03-28-04, 04:51 PM	Hmm..if anything that I can see... Change HD to a d6 and BAB to medium (as bard/cleric/druid/rogue) That's my 2 cents...
Laszlo Koller 03-28-04, 05:09 PM	OK. Well I definitely see where you're coming from. I have to assume then that you think the Bladesinger PrC as presented in the Races of Faerun sourcebook is also overpowered. (If you compare my PrC variant with that class you'll notice the considerable similarities including BAB, saves, spell prgression, spell list, and number of special abilities.) Here's what I had in mind when designing this PrC: I wanted to put the arcane back into the arcane archer--which is why I included a limited spell list I wanted to keep the flavor of the original PrC (the one found in the DMG) including their expertise with the bow--hence the good BAB and the specialty archer abilities I wanted to make an archer equivalent of the Bladesinger PrC--which is where I got some of the other special abilities I guess perhaps I went too far. One thing I would like to mention is that although the spell list does include the good spells, keep in mind when the arcane archer finally gets access to them, he is facing spells (from NPCs or monsters) that are more powerful than the 1st-level standard ones that he's getting to use for the first time. Remember, the 1st level arcane archer is an 8th level character, and as such he faces 4th-level spells from 8th level enemy spellcasters. Do you have any suggestions on how to "tone down" the class in order to make it more balanced? (I guess use the Bladesinger as your yardstick.) Would dropping one bonus feat and dropping the good BAB to an average BAB help? Would dropping the arcane spell failure ability help? Or would more be needed? What would you consider to be a reasonable replacement for the threaten ability? (I don't have any books that review the specifics of the close combat shot ability, so I'm not sure what ability it grants a character.) Thanks.
ksbsnowowl 03-28-04, 06:13 PM	Sorry, don't have Races of Faerun. How does that blade singer compare to the one in Tome and Blood? (I know the T&&B one was errata'd; I'll have to find it on the site). So, I might not be able to use that as a yardstick. I have no doubt that your intentions were (and still are) good. About the spells, although they will be 'behind the power curve' once the PC gets them, many of them are the types that boost and do not require/give a saving throw. They still serve their function no matter the level of the opponents. I think if you dropped the first bonus feat, dropped the arcane spell failure negation, and changed everknocked bow (threaten) to close combat shot, you'd be good. Although I do see that the Arcane Spell Failure negation is important for the spells to not fail on a regular basis. Maybe if you dropped something else instead? But I don't really know what. Oh, and Close Combat Shot allows the archer to no longer provoke AoO's for shooting his ranged weapon while threatened in melee.