Arcane Archers, how good are they [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Archers, how good are they [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MrKlaster
12-02-06, 05:02 PM I have been hearing alot of controversy around Arcane Archers and I was wondering what the public opinion really is. My cousin who is an expert player says they are really good but other people i have talked to say that that is not true.

So please let me know what you think but don't downright take one side without explaining your argument please.
DragonChild_
12-02-06, 05:06 PM Quite frankly: Arcane archers suck.

Their ability to put spells in arrows is useless, as their spells are going to end up very, very low level. Their ability to fire magical arrows is worse than just using Greater Magic Weapon. Their other abilities have too limited uses, damage, or DCs to be any good. You're better off playing a fighter, ranger, or cleric.
frasmage
12-02-06, 05:19 PM arcane archers aren't terrible IMHO, but they aren't the best either. the arrow buff tends to be quite handy and useful as it does stack with other special enhancements such as flaming, holy, etc. that you have on your bow. However they are best build for rangers or fighters who dip a single level into an arcane class (duskblade is probably the best choice, because you don't lose BAB and can still use the spells gained despite your armor)

all in all, this PrC is decent, but not amazing
Batshido
12-02-06, 05:22 PM They're not great.

If you want an Archer/Spellcaster, you might go for the first 2 levels and then drop it. If you somehow wind up with a lot of area affect spells that center on you and they are actually something you want to use, that can work.

Their other special abilities are just really weak. The enhancement bonuses on the arrows won't stack with those from your enchanted bow (which you should have at that point if you are a dedicated archer), and the special abilities are only useful once a day. Maybe if that were quadrupled and instead of enhancement bonuses you got specials like Flaming and Frost Arrows that you could alter based on your opponents. As it stands, you are most likely better off playing a straight Fighter or Ranger.
DM Zoc
12-02-06, 05:27 PM Much like the dragon disciple, the loss of casters levels is too significant to make this a good hybrid class. As an absolute archer, if you can't expect to have a greater magic weapon every day, this is a decent class just from the enhance arrow standpoint. The +5 to hit and damage can make a difference, but isn't anything much more spectacular than a pure fighter could do with some of the high-end specialization tree. There is, however, a plethora of low-level arcane spells that aid archery, which helps.
DarkRhystar
12-02-06, 05:27 PM I'll play devil's advocate here.

Arcane Archers aren't great except for their Enhance Arrow skill.

Bonuses between a bow and the arrows fired overlap, meaning that at level 9, you can fire mundane arrows which become +5 arrows. This allows you to spend your gold on normal arrows instead of magical ones and pour your gold into upgrading your bow with elemental damages and the like. A silver lining to some extent.

The class also has two good saves and 4 skill points per level.

In general though, Archer prestige classes tend to be pretty crappy. Order of the Bow Initiate looks good... for maybe 2 levels. Arcane Archer and Cragtop archer are so-so. Deepwood Sniper may well be one of the best archer prestiges around but it's 3.0 so you need some approval/tweaking for it. Peerless Archer is one that I've heard in passing, but never seen (don't own Silver Marches). And those are all the ones I can list off the top of my head.
MrKlaster
12-02-06, 05:29 PM well there is the hail of arrows ability which is helpful because (I don't know about you but) the DM's i play with like to throw alot of little monsters at the party to wear them down a bit. and sometimes it can take forever to kill 30 zombies.

but even then they only get 1 per A Archer lvl so even that isn't totally great
BrazilRascal
12-02-06, 05:52 PM Quite simply, it doesn't hold. It has the dual flaws of over-specializing you as a ranged attacker while NOT making you a good enough ranged attacker to be a decisive factor in combat.

Yes, you may do slightly higher damage than an Archer-built Ranger, but you'll lack all the tactical abilites and staying power of a Ranger of even a Fighter. Over time, they'll simply catch up with you thanks to enchantments and buff spells from the party cleric/mage...and _they_ have the alternative of drawing a sword and doing quality melee, as well as Feats and other abilities of constant use. You get single usues of mostly easy-to-save powers.

Nice concept. Poor mechanics.
MrKlaster
12-02-06, 06:12 PM what about a warmage/arcane archer. They have plenty of area affect damage spells to use with the imbue arrow.

I have a feeling some people aren't going to like this idea.
ninjarabbit
12-02-06, 06:30 PM The only good build I can think of with arcane archer is bard8/arcanearcher2/sublimechord2/eldtrichknight8 (note that arcane archer grants martial weapon profiency) but even then the arcane archer levels can be subsituted for something else with little loss
Malakai_Demonos
12-02-06, 06:44 PM From the SRD
Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

This makes arcane archer useless. If their ability stacked, then they would be decient. But, any good archer is going to own a good magical bow.

Edit: Well, I guess if you kept your bow a +1 Bow of etc. (all the other +9 being special enchanments); it might be worth it.
StevenO
12-02-06, 07:34 PM The Arcane Archer is NOT a great "every one who wants to be an archer take me" class but is acceptable if you realize what you are getting into. IF your enhanced arrows stacked with the +X of a magic bow like they did in 3.0 then it would be close to great.

I see two main uses for the class. One is as a two level dip for the Imbue Arrow ability in an otherwise caster heavy build. The second is for the archer who realizes he'll get all the magic arrows he needs for vitually nothing and invests in other things to enchant his bow. Yes, it replaces other magical enhancements but a +1 to hit/damage is feat worthy making the class better than the fighter.

Changes are often suggested for this class but many completely rework it into something unrecognizable. My biggest gripe is all the once per day abilities. I'd rather call them "arrow tricks" that you can use so many times per day based on class level. The "tricks" are the current abilities and as you develope the class you gain access to new tricks but they all draw from the same pool.
Nifft
12-02-06, 07:36 PM Arcane Archer: "I spent 10 levels in a lame class, but all my arrows are +5 for free!"

Cleric: "I cast a 4th level spell this morning, and all my arrows are +5 for free, too."

When your big class feature is emulating a 4th level spell (which lasts all day from one casting), you need to re-evaluate your career choice. :)

Cheers, -- N
Lorillomar
12-02-06, 09:23 PM Greater Magic Weapon is a 3rd level spell for Sorc/Wiz, too.

Were I to be in charge of the class, I would say that their abilities are worth MAYBE 3-4 lost caster levels. Either compress it down to a 5-level class or keep it 10 levels and make 6 or 7 of them +1 caster level. I could see giving them casting in Light Armor, too.

As written, a completely useless class.
Thomas_Covenant
12-02-06, 09:30 PM As written, a completely useless class.
Two level dip gives an ability that can be downright abusable in the right build, but not quite gamebreaking, really.

Greater Magic Weapon crushes an Arcane Archer even worse in an optimized, strategic party:
Extended, Chained Greater Magic Weapon, combined with caster level boosts (which, of course, divine casters rule) make the entire party's weapons +4/+5 for minimal cost.

Yeah, Arcane Archer needs a rewrite, to be worth taking in entirety.
Kresalak
12-02-06, 09:53 PM The only good build I can think of with arcane archer is bard8/arcanearcher2/sublimechord2/eldtrichknight8 (note that arcane archer grants martial weapon profiency) but even then the arcane archer levels can be subsituted for something else with little loss
Better would be Bard 7/AA 2/EK 1/Sublime Chord 2/EK8. Same BAB, less bard spells, better Sublime Chord spells.
serow_#R
12-02-06, 10:05 PM it might be worth it in living greyhawk games, where everyone is cash-strapped and you might not party with a cleric/mage or everyone else is clamouring for a greater magic weapon from the cleric/mage
Vaelan
12-02-06, 10:35 PM Arcane Archer: "I spent 10 levels in a lame class, but all my arrows are +5 for free!"

Cleric: "I cast a 4th level spell this morning, and all my arrows are +5 for free, too."

When your big class feature is emulating a 4th level spell (which lasts all day from one casting), you need to re-evaluate your career choice. :)

Cheers, -- N
The Arcane Archer's enhancment bonus progression beats the Cleric's handily. By the time this is the case, the Arcane Archer has been throwing out free save-or-dies and +5 arrows for a level or two, at least, and only then if the Cleric happened upon a particular magic item.
BoDiddilly
12-02-06, 10:52 PM Greater Magic Weapon crushes an Arcane Archer even worse in an optimized, strategic party:
Extended, Chained Greater Magic Weapon, combined with caster level boosts (which, of course, divine casters rule) make the entire party's weapons +4/+5 for minimal cost.

I see what your saying ive foon over this in detail before but let me make a few points.

1 Spell slots and money are equally valuable, afterall money buys spell slots.

2 The Arcane archer can still buff his weapon with purchased magic modifiers and spells, his class just alows him to add a little more. Rather than use Greater Magic Weapon and +1modifier, The AA would cast Keen, and buy Shocking. Alowing his features to take care of the #s. So while other class have a limit to the investment they can place in a weapon the Aa his a slightly high limit any way you slice it.

3 An AA with ancesterial weapon has an untouchable weapon.

Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
Arcane Archer: "I spent 10 levels in a lame class, but all my arrows are +5 for free!"

Cleric: "I cast a 4th level spell this morning, and all my arrows are +5 for free, too."

When your big class feature is emulating a 4th level spell (which lasts all day from one casting), you need to re-evaluate your career choice.

Cheers, -- N

Forth lvl spells are part of your classes collective features, so they they may be free for you and the AA, but it will cost you 16000gd to replace that daily spell slot.

Besides Imbue arrow is the AAs big class feature, perhaps hail of arrows
Ghenesh
12-02-06, 10:53 PM Use this variant:

Table: The Arcane Archer
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Imbue arrow
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Seeker arrow
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Phase arrow
6th +6 +5 +5 +2 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
7th +7 +5 +5 +2 Hail of arrows
8th +8 +6 +6 +2 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
9th +9 +6 +6 +3 Arrow of death
10th +10 +7 +7 +3 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
Thomas_Covenant
12-02-06, 11:31 PM I see what your saying ive foon over this in detail before but let me make a few points.

1 Spell slots and money are equally valuable, afterall money buys spell slots.

2 The Arcane archer can still buff his weapon with purchased magic modifiers and spells, his class just alows him to add a little more. Rather than use Greater Magic Weapon and +1modifier, The AA would cast Keen, and buy Shocking. Alowing his features to take care of the #s.

3 An AA with ancesterial weapon has an untouchable weapon.The Chain hits the entire party's weapons for one (high level, true) spell slot, so his class feature is useless in this specific instance.

1 9,000 Pearl of Power for Wizard, 16,000 for Cleric, worst case, you have a point. Again, assuming no chaining, which heavily optimized parties might do anway.

2 "Cast keen"? not sure I follow.
Assuming a full-BAB arcane casting class (possible, but restrictive with entry feats), he has the equivalent of a free +1 bow at level 7 and 8.
Which is honestly awful build, at this point.

Ok, at level 9, he has a +2 Bow, decent.
He could spend 8,500 for a +1 shocking bow, but get a +2 shocking bow, that's a nice boost.
At level 9, he should have 36,000 gps, a pearl of power would hurt, he has one good trick here.
A Fighter would likely be better, even if he took Weapon Spec and Greater Weapon Focus, a Fighter Archer would surpass him.
A Fighter would probably try to pick up say...Greater Manyshot, so its not actually close.
At level 11, he's at +3 for free, one level before spellcasters can cast that.
A Pearl of Power is now affordable though, and his 1/day standard action special abilities frankly, well, suck.
At level 15, he'll have +5, which is pretty good.
A spellcaster (diving esp.) will have at least one caster level boost, making weapons +4.
And he gave up 5 feats (Fighter) ~2 feats, spells, and skills (Ranger), or earth-shattering power (spellcaster)

Hmm....what level is this GOOD?
On a better entry, say...Ftr4Rng2Wiz1, he is pushed a level back, making him WEAKER.
Yeah, I'm completely convinced now, this is awful.

3 Uhm....You realize any class can get an ancestral weapon?
Same argument, basically straight Fighter, Ranger, or Cleric is quite simply a better archer than this guy, hands down.
They take the Ancestral Relic feat, get Greater Magic Weapon, and laugh at him.
StevenO
12-03-06, 12:10 AM Arcane Archer: "I spent 10 levels in a lame class, but all my arrows are +5 for free!"

Cleric: "I cast a 4th level spell this morning, and all my arrows are +5 for free, too."

When your big class feature is emulating a 4th level spell (which lasts all day from one casting), you need to re-evaluate your career choice. :)

Cheers, -- N
Then are nasty DM hits the entire party with Disjunction while fighting a creature with DR15/magic.

Arcane Archer: Continues firing +5 arrows at the target
Cleric: Begins process of casting new spells.

That example may be a little extreme but Greater Magic Weapon is subject to dispelling in addition to its opportunity cost. The Arcane Archer just needs to pick up a bow and start firing to get the +5 enhancement.

Although is may seem trivial to some Arcane Archer 11 immediately puts your arrows through EPIC DR.
DragonChild_
12-03-06, 12:17 AM That example may be a little extreme but Greater Magic Weapon is subject to dispelling in addition to its opportunity cost. The Arcane Archer just needs to pick up a bow and start firing to get the +5 enhancement.

Spells, while not fully, are largely item independent. If the cleric loses all of his magical gear, he can still cast attack spells at near-full power. The arcane archer has taken a major loss. Not to mention, this is a very, very specific use of an ability that'll only come up in high levels.

Although is may seem trivial to some Arcane Archer 11 immediately puts your arrows through EPIC DR.

It's "trivial" to everyone who understands that epic levels are such a pile of crap, if you're playing them, it's useless to talk about balance and strength.
Eyeless Blond
12-03-06, 12:21 AM The only good build I can think of with arcane archer is bard8/arcanearcher2/sublimechord2/eldtrichknight8 (note that arcane archer grants martial weapon profiency) but even then the arcane archer levels can be subsituted for something else with little lossWell, how about a ranged Antimagic Field? This build gets it as early as level 14. BAB +17, Inspire Courage +2, 9th level spells... it's not a bad spellfighter build. Not much of a bard, though.
strenoth
12-03-06, 01:02 AM It migth work well with a Gestlat campaign going for Ranged Gish, that's about it that I can see.
Lorillomar
12-03-06, 01:19 AM IMHO, the imbue arrow ability was balanced against 3.0 DR, which was almost entirely based upon the plus of your weapon. Back then, the difference between a +1 and a +2 weapon could easily mean the life or death of the party.

Also, it was much more powerful when bow and arrow + stacked.

Nowadays, it just adds a little more "oomph".
Nifft
12-03-06, 02:26 AM IMHO, the imbue arrow ability was balanced against 3.0 DR, which was almost entirely based upon the plus of your weapon. Back then, the difference between a +1 and a +2 weapon could easily mean the life or death of the party.

Also, it was much more powerful when bow and arrow + stacked.

Exactly. Back in 3.0e, the AA as moderately powerful, and +5 arrows were nice -- "It shoots through golems!" Back then, your major ability was like having a Cleric casting greater magic weapon on your ammo every 10 rounds, which is a lot of free spells (vs. having a Cleric just cast gmw on your bow once per day).

I've written up a revision over on EN World: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=67172 (and it's even seen some play testing).

It's an archtype that I like.

Cheers, -- N
Thomas_Covenant
12-03-06, 02:32 AM Then are nasty DM hits the entire party with Disjunction while fighting a creature with DR15/magic.

Arcane Archer: Continues firing +5 arrows at the target
Cleric: Begins process of casting new spells.

That example may be a little extreme but Greater Magic Weapon is subject to dispelling in addition to its opportunity cost. The Arcane Archer just needs to pick up a bow and start firing to get the +5 enhancement.

Although is may seem trivial to some Arcane Archer 11 immediately puts your arrows through EPIC DR.Hmm..how can I put this?

Disjunction or Anti-Magic causing something problems is in NO WAY a Balancing factor, just NO.

More like: Nasty DM hits party with Disjunction while....
**Players beat DM senseless, leave.**

(Greater) Dispel is also no threat, Targeted affects 1 character, not items.
AoE dispel affects probably 1 buff/character, none of their equipment.
Targeting a Bow with Dispel Magic is foolish, except for a Dispel/Shatter trick.
Which would hurt the Arcane Archer at least as much as anyone else, and is just downright dirty.

I don't view Epic as balanced by any stretch, and spellcasters REALLY get crazy at level 21, +1 hit/damage and penetrating Epic DR is just not thrilling me, at all.

EDIT: In fairness, it seemed good in 3.0, always wanted to try the bow/arrow stacking.
I already said it, but it bears repeating: Imbue Arrow can be worth sacrificing quite a bit for, in a small number of builds, no question there.
MrKlaster
12-03-06, 11:04 AM Thx ghen for the moderation for the A archer. It is alot better than the original. Before i saw the post i was thinking of doing a A ARcher remake.

It make alot more sense than the original i guess because now it gets more spells to add to its imbue arrow.

Thx everyone for the arguments and I've been turned. A archers really arent that good. The arguments make sense and im glad everyone gave a good reason.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MrKlaster 12-02-06, 05:02 PM	I have been hearing alot of controversy around Arcane Archers and I was wondering what the public opinion really is. My cousin who is an expert player says they are really good but other people i have talked to say that that is not true. So please let me know what you think but don't downright take one side without explaining your argument please.
DragonChild_ 12-02-06, 05:06 PM	Quite frankly: Arcane archers suck. Their ability to put spells in arrows is useless, as their spells are going to end up very, very low level. Their ability to fire magical arrows is worse than just using Greater Magic Weapon. Their other abilities have too limited uses, damage, or DCs to be any good. You're better off playing a fighter, ranger, or cleric.
frasmage 12-02-06, 05:19 PM	arcane archers aren't terrible IMHO, but they aren't the best either. the arrow buff tends to be quite handy and useful as it does stack with other special enhancements such as flaming, holy, etc. that you have on your bow. However they are best build for rangers or fighters who dip a single level into an arcane class (duskblade is probably the best choice, because you don't lose BAB and can still use the spells gained despite your armor) all in all, this PrC is decent, but not amazing
Batshido 12-02-06, 05:22 PM	They're not great. If you want an Archer/Spellcaster, you might go for the first 2 levels and then drop it. If you somehow wind up with a lot of area affect spells that center on you and they are actually something you want to use, that can work. Their other special abilities are just really weak. The enhancement bonuses on the arrows won't stack with those from your enchanted bow (which you should have at that point if you are a dedicated archer), and the special abilities are only useful once a day. Maybe if that were quadrupled and instead of enhancement bonuses you got specials like Flaming and Frost Arrows that you could alter based on your opponents. As it stands, you are most likely better off playing a straight Fighter or Ranger.
DM Zoc 12-02-06, 05:27 PM	Much like the dragon disciple, the loss of casters levels is too significant to make this a good hybrid class. As an absolute archer, if you can't expect to have a greater magic weapon every day, this is a decent class just from the enhance arrow standpoint. The +5 to hit and damage can make a difference, but isn't anything much more spectacular than a pure fighter could do with some of the high-end specialization tree. There is, however, a plethora of low-level arcane spells that aid archery, which helps.
DarkRhystar 12-02-06, 05:27 PM	I'll play devil's advocate here. Arcane Archers aren't great except for their Enhance Arrow skill. Bonuses between a bow and the arrows fired overlap, meaning that at level 9, you can fire mundane arrows which become +5 arrows. This allows you to spend your gold on normal arrows instead of magical ones and pour your gold into upgrading your bow with elemental damages and the like. A silver lining to some extent. The class also has two good saves and 4 skill points per level. In general though, Archer prestige classes tend to be pretty crappy. Order of the Bow Initiate looks good... for maybe 2 levels. Arcane Archer and Cragtop archer are so-so. Deepwood Sniper may well be one of the best archer prestiges around but it's 3.0 so you need some approval/tweaking for it. Peerless Archer is one that I've heard in passing, but never seen (don't own Silver Marches). And those are all the ones I can list off the top of my head.
MrKlaster 12-02-06, 05:29 PM	well there is the hail of arrows ability which is helpful because (I don't know about you but) the DM's i play with like to throw alot of little monsters at the party to wear them down a bit. and sometimes it can take forever to kill 30 zombies. but even then they only get 1 per A Archer lvl so even that isn't totally great
BrazilRascal 12-02-06, 05:52 PM	Quite simply, it doesn't hold. It has the dual flaws of over-specializing you as a ranged attacker while NOT making you a good enough ranged attacker to be a decisive factor in combat. Yes, you may do slightly higher damage than an Archer-built Ranger, but you'll lack all the tactical abilites and staying power of a Ranger of even a Fighter. Over time, they'll simply catch up with you thanks to enchantments and buff spells from the party cleric/mage...and _they_ have the alternative of drawing a sword and doing quality melee, as well as Feats and other abilities of constant use. You get single usues of mostly easy-to-save powers. Nice concept. Poor mechanics.
MrKlaster 12-02-06, 06:12 PM	what about a warmage/arcane archer. They have plenty of area affect damage spells to use with the imbue arrow. I have a feeling some people aren't going to like this idea.
ninjarabbit 12-02-06, 06:30 PM	The only good build I can think of with arcane archer is bard8/arcanearcher2/sublimechord2/eldtrichknight8 (note that arcane archer grants martial weapon profiency) but even then the arcane archer levels can be subsituted for something else with little loss
Malakai_Demonos 12-02-06, 06:44 PM	From the SRD Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies. This makes arcane archer useless. If their ability stacked, then they would be decient. But, any good archer is going to own a good magical bow. Edit: Well, I guess if you kept your bow a +1 Bow of etc. (all the other +9 being special enchanments); it might be worth it.
StevenO 12-02-06, 07:34 PM	The Arcane Archer is NOT a great "every one who wants to be an archer take me" class but is acceptable if you realize what you are getting into. IF your enhanced arrows stacked with the +X of a magic bow like they did in 3.0 then it would be close to great. I see two main uses for the class. One is as a two level dip for the Imbue Arrow ability in an otherwise caster heavy build. The second is for the archer who realizes he'll get all the magic arrows he needs for vitually nothing and invests in other things to enchant his bow. Yes, it replaces other magical enhancements but a +1 to hit/damage is feat worthy making the class better than the fighter. Changes are often suggested for this class but many completely rework it into something unrecognizable. My biggest gripe is all the once per day abilities. I'd rather call them "arrow tricks" that you can use so many times per day based on class level. The "tricks" are the current abilities and as you develope the class you gain access to new tricks but they all draw from the same pool.
Nifft 12-02-06, 07:36 PM	Arcane Archer: "I spent 10 levels in a lame class, but all my arrows are +5 for free!" Cleric: "I cast a 4th level spell this morning, and all my arrows are +5 for free, too." When your big class feature is emulating a 4th level spell (which lasts all day from one casting), you need to re-evaluate your career choice. :) Cheers, -- N
Lorillomar 12-02-06, 09:23 PM	Greater Magic Weapon is a 3rd level spell for Sorc/Wiz, too. Were I to be in charge of the class, I would say that their abilities are worth MAYBE 3-4 lost caster levels. Either compress it down to a 5-level class or keep it 10 levels and make 6 or 7 of them +1 caster level. I could see giving them casting in Light Armor, too. As written, a completely useless class.
Thomas_Covenant 12-02-06, 09:30 PM	As written, a completely useless class. Two level dip gives an ability that can be downright abusable in the right build, but not quite gamebreaking, really. Greater Magic Weapon crushes an Arcane Archer even worse in an optimized, strategic party: Extended, Chained Greater Magic Weapon, combined with caster level boosts (which, of course, divine casters rule) make the entire party's weapons +4/+5 for minimal cost. Yeah, Arcane Archer needs a rewrite, to be worth taking in entirety.
Kresalak 12-02-06, 09:53 PM	The only good build I can think of with arcane archer is bard8/arcanearcher2/sublimechord2/eldtrichknight8 (note that arcane archer grants martial weapon profiency) but even then the arcane archer levels can be subsituted for something else with little loss Better would be Bard 7/AA 2/EK 1/Sublime Chord 2/EK8. Same BAB, less bard spells, better Sublime Chord spells.
serow_#R 12-02-06, 10:05 PM	it might be worth it in living greyhawk games, where everyone is cash-strapped and you might not party with a cleric/mage or everyone else is clamouring for a greater magic weapon from the cleric/mage
Vaelan 12-02-06, 10:35 PM	Arcane Archer: "I spent 10 levels in a lame class, but all my arrows are +5 for free!" Cleric: "I cast a 4th level spell this morning, and all my arrows are +5 for free, too." When your big class feature is emulating a 4th level spell (which lasts all day from one casting), you need to re-evaluate your career choice. :) Cheers, -- N The Arcane Archer's enhancment bonus progression beats the Cleric's handily. By the time this is the case, the Arcane Archer has been throwing out free save-or-dies and +5 arrows for a level or two, at least, and only then if the Cleric happened upon a particular magic item.
BoDiddilly 12-02-06, 10:52 PM	Greater Magic Weapon crushes an Arcane Archer even worse in an optimized, strategic party: Extended, Chained Greater Magic Weapon, combined with caster level boosts (which, of course, divine casters rule) make the entire party's weapons +4/+5 for minimal cost. I see what your saying ive foon over this in detail before but let me make a few points. 1 Spell slots and money are equally valuable, afterall money buys spell slots. 2 The Arcane archer can still buff his weapon with purchased magic modifiers and spells, his class just alows him to add a little more. Rather than use Greater Magic Weapon and +1modifier, The AA would cast Keen, and buy Shocking. Alowing his features to take care of the #s. So while other class have a limit to the investment they can place in a weapon the Aa his a slightly high limit any way you slice it. 3 An AA with ancesterial weapon has an untouchable weapon. Originally Posted by Nifft View Post Arcane Archer: "I spent 10 levels in a lame class, but all my arrows are +5 for free!" Cleric: "I cast a 4th level spell this morning, and all my arrows are +5 for free, too." When your big class feature is emulating a 4th level spell (which lasts all day from one casting), you need to re-evaluate your career choice. Cheers, -- N Forth lvl spells are part of your classes collective features, so they they may be free for you and the AA, but it will cost you 16000gd to replace that daily spell slot. Besides Imbue arrow is the AAs big class feature, perhaps hail of arrows
Ghenesh 12-02-06, 10:53 PM	Use this variant: Table: The Arcane Archer Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Imbue arrow 2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Seeker arrow 4th +4 +4 +4 +1 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Phase arrow 6th +6 +5 +5 +2 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 7th +7 +5 +5 +2 Hail of arrows 8th +8 +6 +6 +2 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 9th +9 +6 +6 +3 Arrow of death 10th +10 +7 +7 +3 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
Thomas_Covenant 12-02-06, 11:31 PM	I see what your saying ive foon over this in detail before but let me make a few points. 1 Spell slots and money are equally valuable, afterall money buys spell slots. 2 The Arcane archer can still buff his weapon with purchased magic modifiers and spells, his class just alows him to add a little more. Rather than use Greater Magic Weapon and +1modifier, The AA would cast Keen, and buy Shocking. Alowing his features to take care of the #s. 3 An AA with ancesterial weapon has an untouchable weapon.The Chain hits the entire party's weapons for one (high level, true) spell slot, so his class feature is useless in this specific instance. 1 9,000 Pearl of Power for Wizard, 16,000 for Cleric, worst case, you have a point. Again, assuming no chaining, which heavily optimized parties might do anway. 2 "Cast keen"? not sure I follow. Assuming a full-BAB arcane casting class (possible, but restrictive with entry feats), he has the equivalent of a free +1 bow at level 7 and 8. Which is honestly awful build, at this point. Ok, at level 9, he has a +2 Bow, decent. He could spend 8,500 for a +1 shocking bow, but get a +2 shocking bow, that's a nice boost. At level 9, he should have 36,000 gps, a pearl of power would hurt, he has one good trick here. A Fighter would likely be better, even if he took Weapon Spec and Greater Weapon Focus, a Fighter Archer would surpass him. A Fighter would probably try to pick up say...Greater Manyshot, so its not actually close. At level 11, he's at +3 for free, one level before spellcasters can cast that. A Pearl of Power is now affordable though, and his 1/day standard action special abilities frankly, well, suck. At level 15, he'll have +5, which is pretty good. A spellcaster (diving esp.) will have at least one caster level boost, making weapons +4. And he gave up 5 feats (Fighter) ~2 feats, spells, and skills (Ranger), or earth-shattering power (spellcaster) Hmm....what level is this GOOD? On a better entry, say...Ftr4Rng2Wiz1, he is pushed a level back, making him WEAKER. Yeah, I'm completely convinced now, this is awful. 3 Uhm....You realize any class can get an ancestral weapon? Same argument, basically straight Fighter, Ranger, or Cleric is quite simply a better archer than this guy, hands down. They take the Ancestral Relic feat, get Greater Magic Weapon, and laugh at him.
StevenO 12-03-06, 12:10 AM	Arcane Archer: "I spent 10 levels in a lame class, but all my arrows are +5 for free!" Cleric: "I cast a 4th level spell this morning, and all my arrows are +5 for free, too." When your big class feature is emulating a 4th level spell (which lasts all day from one casting), you need to re-evaluate your career choice. :) Cheers, -- N Then are nasty DM hits the entire party with Disjunction while fighting a creature with DR15/magic. Arcane Archer: Continues firing +5 arrows at the target Cleric: Begins process of casting new spells. That example may be a little extreme but Greater Magic Weapon is subject to dispelling in addition to its opportunity cost. The Arcane Archer just needs to pick up a bow and start firing to get the +5 enhancement. Although is may seem trivial to some Arcane Archer 11 immediately puts your arrows through EPIC DR.
DragonChild_ 12-03-06, 12:17 AM	That example may be a little extreme but Greater Magic Weapon is subject to dispelling in addition to its opportunity cost. The Arcane Archer just needs to pick up a bow and start firing to get the +5 enhancement. Spells, while not fully, are largely item independent. If the cleric loses all of his magical gear, he can still cast attack spells at near-full power. The arcane archer has taken a major loss. Not to mention, this is a very, very specific use of an ability that'll only come up in high levels. Although is may seem trivial to some Arcane Archer 11 immediately puts your arrows through EPIC DR. It's "trivial" to everyone who understands that epic levels are such a pile of crap, if you're playing them, it's useless to talk about balance and strength.
Eyeless Blond 12-03-06, 12:21 AM	The only good build I can think of with arcane archer is bard8/arcanearcher2/sublimechord2/eldtrichknight8 (note that arcane archer grants martial weapon profiency) but even then the arcane archer levels can be subsituted for something else with little lossWell, how about a ranged Antimagic Field? This build gets it as early as level 14. BAB +17, Inspire Courage +2, 9th level spells... it's not a bad spellfighter build. Not much of a bard, though.
strenoth 12-03-06, 01:02 AM	It migth work well with a Gestlat campaign going for Ranged Gish, that's about it that I can see.
Lorillomar 12-03-06, 01:19 AM	IMHO, the imbue arrow ability was balanced against 3.0 DR, which was almost entirely based upon the plus of your weapon. Back then, the difference between a +1 and a +2 weapon could easily mean the life or death of the party. Also, it was much more powerful when bow and arrow + stacked. Nowadays, it just adds a little more "oomph".
Nifft 12-03-06, 02:26 AM	IMHO, the imbue arrow ability was balanced against 3.0 DR, which was almost entirely based upon the plus of your weapon. Back then, the difference between a +1 and a +2 weapon could easily mean the life or death of the party. Also, it was much more powerful when bow and arrow + stacked. Exactly. Back in 3.0e, the AA as moderately powerful, and +5 arrows were nice -- "It shoots through golems!" Back then, your major ability was like having a Cleric casting greater magic weapon on your ammo every 10 rounds, which is a lot of free spells (vs. having a Cleric just cast gmw on your bow once per day). I've written up a revision over on EN World: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=67172 (and it's even seen some play testing). It's an archtype that I like. Cheers, -- N
Thomas_Covenant 12-03-06, 02:32 AM	Then are nasty DM hits the entire party with Disjunction while fighting a creature with DR15/magic. Arcane Archer: Continues firing +5 arrows at the target Cleric: Begins process of casting new spells. That example may be a little extreme but Greater Magic Weapon is subject to dispelling in addition to its opportunity cost. The Arcane Archer just needs to pick up a bow and start firing to get the +5 enhancement. Although is may seem trivial to some Arcane Archer 11 immediately puts your arrows through EPIC DR.Hmm..how can I put this? Disjunction or Anti-Magic causing something problems is in NO WAY a Balancing factor, just NO. More like: Nasty DM hits party with Disjunction while.... Players beat DM senseless, leave. (Greater) Dispel is also no threat, Targeted affects 1 character, not items. AoE dispel affects probably 1 buff/character, none of their equipment. Targeting a Bow with Dispel Magic is foolish, except for a Dispel/Shatter trick. Which would hurt the Arcane Archer at least as much as anyone else, and is just downright dirty. I don't view Epic as balanced by any stretch, and spellcasters REALLY get crazy at level 21, +1 hit/damage and penetrating Epic DR is just not thrilling me, at all. EDIT: In fairness, it seemed good in 3.0, always wanted to try the bow/arrow stacking. I already said it, but it bears repeating: Imbue Arrow can be worth sacrificing quite a bit for, in a small number of builds, no question there.
MrKlaster 12-03-06, 11:04 AM	Thx ghen for the moderation for the A archer. It is alot better than the original. Before i saw the post i was thinking of doing a A ARcher remake. It make alot more sense than the original i guess because now it gets more spells to add to its imbue arrow. Thx everyone for the arguments and I've been turned. A archers really arent that good. The arguments make sense and im glad everyone gave a good reason.