Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Unholywarrior 10-22-04, 01:05 PM	Trying to balance a more spell oriented type of assassin. edited: new ability progression The methods of the arcane assassin are primarily to attempt to kill with magic sneak attacks, avoiding actual combat as much as possible (obviously, with d4 hit dice, no armor, and weak BAB). Arcane Assassin Prerequisites: To qualify to become an arcane assassin a character must fulfill all of the following criteria. Alignment: Any evil. Skills: Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks. Feats: Point blank shot (for spellcasting) Spells: Ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells. Must know the Invisibility spell and at least one targeted damaging spell. Special: Sneak attack +2d6. Class skills: The arcane assassin's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex). Skill points: 4+int. bonus Hit Die: d4 Table: The Arcane Assassin Lev Bab For Ref Will Special Spells per Day 1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Sneak attack +1d6 +1 level of existing class 2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Death's Door 40 +1 level of existing class 3rd +1 +1 +3 +3 Sneak attack +2d6, +1 level of existing class 4th +2 +1 +4 +4 Death's Door 80 +1 level of existing class 5th +2 +1 +4 +4 Sneak attack +3d6 +1 level of existing class 6th +3 +2 +5 +5 Death's Door 120 +1 level of existing class Sudden strike 7th +3 +2 +5 +5 Sneak attack +4d6, +1 level of existing class 8th +4 +2 +6 +6 Death’s Door 160 +1 level of existing class Hit and Run 9th +4 +3 +6 +6 Sneak attack +5d6, +1 level of existing class 10th +5 +3 +7 +7 Death’s Door 200 +1 level of existing class Class Features All of the following are Class Features of the arcane assassin prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Arcane assassins are proficient with the crossbow (hand, light, or heavy), dagger (any type), dart, rapier, sap, scimitar, shortbow (normal and composite), and short sword. They are not proficient with any armor or shields. Spells per day: When a new arcane assassin level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane assassin, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day. Sneak attack This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th). If an arcane assassin gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack. Death's door At 2nd level or higher, an arcane assassin can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. The distance increases at each even level (4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment.The caster level for this effect is the arcane assassin’s class level. Sudden strike At 6th level, the arcane assassin is able to combine the ability of Death’s door with his combat reflexes, to deadly effect. With this ability, the arcane assassin must first use the death’s door ability (or dimension door or other instantaneous transportation magic) to move adjacent the target creature. In doing so, the character may make a one attack (qualifies for a melee sneak attack) upon that foe. This ability is identical to the ability, flash to sunset, part of the tactical feat Sun school style. Hit and Run At 8th level, the arcane assassin learns the other side of the proverbial coin of sudden strike. The character is now able to strike once in a round and use Death's door to escape the instant after the blow lands. this cannot be used in a round that Sudden strike has been used. It must be declared that this ability is to be used prior to making any attacks and must be in conjunction with the first (and only) attack of the round for the character. Sudden strike is simply 1/3 of a tactical feat that seemed to fit well with the flavor of the class. Ideas ? Suggestions ?
CaoSlayer 10-22-04, 01:10 PM	eeer, for a rogue-wizard prc there is the arcane tricker(sp) and for a mage who kills mages, it is the mage killer prc. there is not need for this class.
Unholywarrior 10-22-04, 01:27 PM	At least detail the reasoning why "there is no need". An arcane trickster has a different focus, his abilities aren't quite what I was shooting for. He's not the same opportunist as a trickster (hence no spontaneous sneak attack) and he isn't focused on doing other rogue abilities at range either. His focus is not being found while crippling the enemy. He is not a mage killer either, as a major benefit of a RANGED TOUCH attack spell is bypassing armor, it makes him suited to attempting to kill armored types by combining the ranged touch spells with his sneak attack damage (from hiding of course). Whether you say it's needed or not, it's here, and i'm trying to make sure it's abilities are balanced...
CaoSlayer 10-22-04, 01:35 PM	okey... anyway realize that neither a sorcerer or a wizard will lost almost nothing taking this class (beyond familiar levels and getting the sneak attack), it is a very powerful prc... more worth that the 3 wizard feats, so I would recomend: -medium caster progresion but d6 for hp and medium bab, maybe allowing to ignore light armor ASF at a high level feature (level 8+) or -+1d6 sneak attack each 3 levels and not hide in plain sight (anyway, with improved invisibility he isnt going to miss it).
Unholywarrior 10-22-04, 01:58 PM	Well, the point of having the lowest hit dice and no armor is to balance with the spellcasting (as is the case with the Arcane trickster). The difference being the other special abilities. Otherwise it is the same progression in everything. It is not appropriate to give better hit dice or armor for a class that is specifically meant to use spellcasting, again, with the arcane trickster as a measuring rod. So if that's the case then balancing, lets break down the other special abilities and see whats overpowered. Hide in plain sight: As you said, with invisibility and greater invisibility, it's not that important or powerful an ability to have. So I don't see overpower here. Uncanny dodge: Just as a typical assassin, he's wary and defends against being flanked and sneaked. Again, I don't see out of balance power. Death's door: At the level he gains this ability, he would already have had access to the spell for at least 4 levels prior, so it's just a small benefit he gets and something he probably would have been doing anyways fro sometime before gaining the power. Again, not powerful. Sudden strike: Being that it is 1/3 of a tactical feat, but you don't have to have the prerquisites, I could consider it the equal of one feat, which, gained at 10th level of the prc (minimum character level 16) does not seem overly powerful. Logically, whats inacurate in what I described above ?
EvilVegan 10-22-04, 02:42 PM	I wouldn't say that Hide In Plain Sight, Dimension door, or Sudden strike are over powered so much as crappy. I'd give DC/CL increases to death spells, SR penetration, and poison use. Things that a wizard who is hired to kill people would need. With the poor BAB and spells that replace your abilities you aren't going to be using suddenstrike at all. Death's door at the very least should be either into shadows only or through dead bodies only (otherwise rename it). Also the Arcane Trickster Impromptu sneak attack is much better suited to an assassin. IMC I had a player make an arcane assassin. He had the death blow and poison use abilities of the assassin with sneak attack and caster level advancement of arcane trickster. It didn't seem too overpowered IMO. But I was running a pretty high power campaign. He used death blow twice and poisoned things constantly. But we did fight quite a bit of Undead so it made him pretty useless until he researched Ervate (positive energy enervate). So either give it increases to Hit Die and BAB and decrease its spell progression (maybe by 1/3); or give it something like poison use or death strike; or give it familiar sneak attacks; or give it death spell improvements. At 20th level with an average of 45 hit points (not counting constitution) any character with an intelligence over 12 who dimension doors into melee range of a BBEG (even with backup) just to make 1 sneak attack with a poor BAB would be docked xp in my game for bad role playing of character intelligence. Especially since they can just get within 30 feet and cast melf's acid arrow for a ranged touch attack that has more effect and does sneak attack damage.
Unholywarrior 10-22-04, 03:00 PM	Ok, good feedback. The key thing I want to remain in the class aris the spell progression at the same rate as arcane trickster. The idea of boosting some kinds of spells seems interesting, but since the focus is to utilize spells that can benefit from sneak attack damage, I'd think boosting spells of those types would be most appropriate. The name for death's door ability was the idea that he steps through and sneaks you (probably with a touch attack damaging spell + sneak attack damage, which is not that difficult to hit with, not planning on a normal melee attack when using that ability) possibly killing you. Hence the death's door... get it ? Death blow isn't usable ranged, so it's not the same flavor of killing. Picture what the arcane assassin would prefer to do. From hiding, or invisiblity, he launches an Acid Orb lesser (say 4d8 damage on it). It's a ranged touch attack, no SR and no save. He hits on his sneak attack, so the target takes 4d8 + 4d6 (example) damage. or Stepping through Death's door to use Sudden strike, he delivers a touch attack of Shocking grasp 5d6 + his sneak attack damage of 7d6 for a total of 12d6 damage. Does this help illustrate how i envision the class going about his business ?
Jell_Moo 10-22-04, 03:34 PM	You know, I really wanted to blast this down when I first skimmed it. Then I read it a little closer and... It's reasonably balanced. Wow, who woulda thought. Now, I don't see a need for it as long as the Arcane Trickster exists, but I think I actually like this a little better than the AT. Howver, I will make a few small suggestions. 1) Change the Death's Door ability to more closely resemble that of a Shadowdancer (you can DD so many feet per day), and drop it to a lower level. The absolute earliest you have the character getting it is at level 14, and by that point you've been Dimension Dooring for a while anyway. At the very least, I'd switch it with Hide in Plain Sight. 2) I'm not sure about Uncanny and Improved Uncanny Dodge. Nothing about the class really screams a need for them. If anything, I'd take em both out, *maybe* consider adding Mettle, and having an empty level. 3) This PrC is going to suffer from the same thing that the Arcane Trickster suffers from. The earliest in can enter the class is at 7th level, so that means it is simply going to suck for levels 1-6. I'd keep the 2nd level casting part, but maybe change the rest to 1d6 Sneak Attack, and the Evasion class feature. It only gains entrance to the PrC a level earlier, but at least that's a level of pain the player won't have to endure.
Unholywarrior 10-22-04, 03:50 PM	1) Change the Death's Door ability to more closely resemble that of a Shadowdancer (you can DD so many feet per day), and drop it to a lower level. The absolute earliest you have the character getting it is at level 14, and by that point you've been Dimension Dooring for a while anyway. At the very least, I'd switch it with Hide in Plain Sight. I had originally planned the ability to be gained earlier and end up at 2 x per day, but thought people would naysay about it being overpowered... Doing something like the Shadowdancers ability would possibly work, but I don't think this ability should be limited to shadows. 2) I'm not sure about Uncanny and Improved Uncanny Dodge. Nothing about the class really screams a need for them. If anything, I'd take em both out, *maybe* consider adding Mettle, and having an empty level. I reasoned that when the arcane assassin does do something like death's door, he can be placing himself in the enemy's midst and would be trained and prepared for that situation, to avoid flanking and sneaks... 3) This PrC is going to suffer from the same thing that the Arcane Trickster suffers from. The earliest in can enter the class is at 7th level, so that means it is simply going to suck for levels 1-6. I'd keep the 2nd level casting part, but maybe change the rest to 1d6 Sneak Attack, and the Evasion class feature. It only gains entrance to the PrC a level earlier, but at least that's a level of pain the player won't have to endure. Well, as you're working towards the class, you are still able to do ranged touch attack sneaks, which are an overlooked strength I think. I don't think it should be much lower an entry point, possibly 6th... but as it gets lower, abilities gained seem more powerful in relation, so it's hard to say. As is, I agree, it's not overpowered. Match it against virtually anything of equal levels and it's self evident. I'm trying to maintain the flavor of the class idea, without making it much more powerful. What about a variation of Sudden strike, in which after you strike, you can utilize death's door in the same round ? The quick escape. I think that idea seems too powerful maybe...
Jell_Moo 10-22-04, 04:22 PM	Originally posted by Unholywarrior I had originally planned the ability to be gained earlier and end up at 2 x per day, but thought people would naysay about it being overpowered... Doing something like the Shadowdancers ability would possibly work, but I don't think this ability should be limited to shadows. I would keep it as the Shadowdancer ability, start it at 4th level with 20 ft per day, and up it as the Shadowdancer. Whether you want it to need a shadow or not is your call. Personally I find the flavor fits it needing a shadow, but the in game effect of either way is minimal. O personally don't see it as being overpowered at all, since the character could simply cast Dimenion Door if he wanted to. I reasoned that when the arcane assassin does do something like death's door, he can be placing himself in the enemy's midst and would be trained and prepared for that situation, to avoid flanking and sneaks... I see where you're coming from, but I think it's a wee bit over the top. Remember that the Arcane Assassin is going to have spells to take care of things like that, and he should certainly use them before DD into battle. Simply casting Blur before using Death's Door would be a smart idea, or better yet Improved Invisibility. I just think that if a Rogue does manage to get the jump on you, this class should be vulnerable. It's divided it's attention on too many things (casting, sneak attack, skills) that it has to lose out somewhere, and the Uncanny Dodge is where I'd cut. If I were to redesign it a bit, here's what I'd try... 1st - Sneak Attack +1d6, Posion Use 2nd - Hide in Plain Sight 3rd - Sneak Attack +2d6 4th - Death's Door (20ft) 5th - Sneak Attack +3d6 6th - Death's Door (40ft) 7th - Sneak Attack +4d6 8th - Death's Door (80ft) 9th - Sneak Attack +5d6 10th - Death's Door (160 ft), Sudden Strike And I'd make Sudden Strike allow you to DD in using Death's Door, make a single attack, and then DD out, using Death's Door. It's hardly overpowered, and the best use would probably be touch spells. I just think it's best if you trim a little of the fat off the class, and give it a more constant feel.
Unholywarrior 10-22-04, 04:34 PM	Your suggestions seem pretty reasonable to me, but is it *too cheap* to be able to death's door in - attack - death's door out in the same round ? Honestly it would fit the class to a T to be able to do that, but I don't want it to overpower it. But, upon thinking about it, it's really no cheaper than sitting back in hiding and spell-sneak attacking, if anything it's a bit worse since you use up more of your special abilities (having to move through death's door twice).
Jell_Moo 10-22-04, 05:09 PM	It's really no different than Spring Attacking, it just gives you the ability to do it from a farther distance. For a high level ability, it's hardly game breaking. And since you only have Death's Door up to 160ft per day, the best you could do is DD 80ft in, sneak attack once, and then DD out for 80ft. That's it for the day. The best way to use it would be to Tumble in, make a single attack, and then DD out before the counter attack. Evem then, you could do the same thing with a Quickened Dimension Door. It's a cute ability, very flavorful, but ultimately won't overpower the class in any way, shape or form.
Unholywarrior 10-22-04, 05:25 PM	Of course, in relation to dimension door, that shadowwalk like ability is quite a bit shorter distance (400+40 ft/lev vs. up to 160 ft).
EvilVegan 10-22-04, 06:40 PM	If you could DD in, Attack, and DD out that's 2 quickened spells and a standard action in 1 round. Thats a bit much, regardless, and DD states that you can't take many actions afterwards. Its entirely different from spring attack! No AoO from enemies, avoid obstacles, no checks (tumbling, jumping, etc), no encumbrance worries, etc.
Unholywarrior 10-22-04, 07:12 PM	If you could DD in, Attack, and DD out that's 2 quickened spells and a standard action in 1 round. Thats a bit much, regardless, and DD states that you can't take many actions afterwards. Its entirely different from spring attack! No AoO from enemies, avoid obstacles, no checks (tumbling, jumping, etc), no encumbrance worries, etc. After reviewing things, I don't think it should be usuable to DD in attack and then DD out in the same round. I do like the idea of DD in and attack OR attack and DD out though. And WOTC has already set the precedant of it being possible to DD and them act when they made the tactical feat Sun school style in Complete Warriors, specifically the ability called flash to sunset which states you can DD in and immediately gain one attack at your highest bonus.
Unholywarrior 10-22-04, 10:13 PM	Edits done to ability progression. What do you think now ? Edit again: The class is approved in it's current incarnation, by my DM.
Darkstealth 10-23-04, 05:35 PM	Two words: Average BAB. An Assasian needs to be at least slightly good at attacking if he should be useful at all. A Good BAB is for frontline fighters and a Poor BAB for Arcane Spellcaster who DO NOT have a big role in combat. If this is supposed to be an assasian-like class, what kind of Assasian is at a low calibur in attacking?
Jell_Moo 10-23-04, 07:13 PM	If I may... The loe BAB fits perfectly because when it comes to Sneak Attacking, this class will n ot be using a weapon. It will be doing something along the lines of DD into position, Sneak Attacking with a Scorching Ray or some such spell, and then Moving away. Since touch ACs are generally much lower than straight ACs, it does not need a higher BAB.
Gnarl 10-23-04, 09:41 PM	The FR book Underdark already contains an assassin flavored arcane spell caster. They only get one arcane spellcaster level per two class levels.
Unholywarrior 10-23-04, 09:53 PM	Again... The difference here is that the Arcane assassin does not focus on things in the same way. Notice the Imaskari Vengeance Taker also recieves higher hit dice as well as poison use,death attack, and better BAB. None of which the A A gets, because the A A focuses on the spellcasting, not at becoming better physically at the art of death. The Assassin and Imaskari Vengeance Taker are remarkably similar (with staggered spell progression for the IVT while the Assassin starts learning spells and virtually all the same abilities, BAB, hit dice). Neither fills the role of the Arcane Assassin.