Post/Author/DateTime	Post
X0_Lt_0X 03-26-08, 03:49 AM	Ive been looking at the variant class features of the swordsage. Then I saw the Arcane Spellcaster Variant: d6 HD compared to d4 HD of Wizard Spells from any Arcane Casters List Full Spell Progression 12 Spells per encounter (if level 20), which can all be 9th level spells Spells casted as if maneuvers (whats Spell Resistence? :D ) Stances Better REF Better BAB A small AC bonus The only thing I see wrong with it is the lack of spells known. Am I not seeing something that makes this variant weaker than it seems? Your thoughts?
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-26-08, 03:57 AM	Lack of spells known is a pretty damned big weakness. Why do you think warmages and beguilers are generally looked down upon, and even sorcerers (while good) considered not so good as wizards?
StruckingFuggle 03-26-08, 04:00 AM	On the other hand, a Swordsage with 9th level spells will continually be gaining the effects of a Timestop spell. Initiate Timestop. Adaptive Style Buff / move until time runs out. Time starts again. Act as need be. Repeat Timestop as need be
X0_Lt_0X 03-26-08, 04:00 AM	Lack of spells known is a pretty damned big weakness. Why do you think warmages and beguilers are generally looked down upon, and even sorcerers (while good) considered not so good as wizards? That is true. However the class seems far more powerful than a sorcerer.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-26-08, 04:04 AM	On the other hand, a Swordsage with 9th level spells will continually be gaining the effects of a Timestop spell. Initiate Timestop. Adaptive Style Buff / move until time runs out. Time starts again. Act as need be. Repeat Timestop as need be Okay yeah, that's a bit nasty.:blush:
StruckingFuggle 03-26-08, 04:31 AM	Granted, that's not until Level 17, but at the same time It seems like it'd be fun to try and play one, but I'd want to not do it from level 1 (ack). But I'd have to work, I think, to not break it or be broken, because if you're not careful with spell choice ... ow.
X0_Lt_0X 03-26-08, 03:26 PM	And while it has a limited access to spells, it can always "upgrade" spells to there better versions (Charm Person to Charm Monster, Bull Strength to Mass Bull Strength, Cure Light Wounds to Cure Serious Wounds, etc.) allowing one to know more spells. For Example: This means that instead of knowing all the versions of the Cure Wounds and Heal Spells (9),some of which will become useless at higher levels, you can know only the most effective spell at your current level (Such as Mass Heal at Lv20) You can also gain extra spells known via the Master of the Nine Prestige Class
X0_Lt_0X 03-26-08, 03:49 PM	Now I kinda over exaggerated it being overpowered, but It definitely a strong class, Top 15 at least.
ZiggZagg 03-26-08, 04:07 PM	they can't pull from any spell list. They are limited to a few. i think it was Abjuaration, Evocation, and Transmutation...or something like that.
X0_Lt_0X 03-26-08, 04:18 PM	they can't pull from any spell list. They are limited to a few. i think it was Abjuaration, Evocation, and Transmutation...or something like that. Actually it says that Spells from those schools are most appropriate, especially spells with the range of touch and personal. It doesn't say anything about them being limited to such school, it just suggest that those are spell that you should chose, because they are similar to the maneuvers of the standard swordsage.
Sunic_Flames 03-26-08, 04:31 PM	Well, the intent was more something duskblade like than your standard mage. Except... rogue duskblade. It makes a big difference power wise. Color Spray > Shocking Grasp. Yes I know, HD limits reverse that after a few levels. You get the point.
Sinfire Titan 03-26-08, 04:47 PM	they can't pull from any spell list. They are limited to a few. i think it was Abjuaration, Evocation, and Transmutation...or something like that. Cool. There's TIme Stop, Alter Self/Polymorph/PaO/Shapechange. If having those at will isn't broken, then I want some of what you're smokin'.
ZiggZagg 03-26-08, 04:50 PM	Thank you for your kind remarks there, but I am not at that level so I couldn't tell you how powerful THAT is. Hey if you don't like it, then don't use it. It is a variant, afterall
X0_Lt_0X 03-26-08, 04:58 PM	Cool. There's TIme Stop, Alter Self/Polymorph/PaO/Shapechange. If having those at will isn't broken, then I want some of what you're smokin'. 2nd
Sinfire Titan 03-26-08, 05:04 PM	Thank you for your kind remarks there, but I am not at that level so I couldn't tell you how powerful THAT is. Hey if you don't like it, then don't use it. It is a variant, afterall A Variant that is stronger than the original base class itself shouldn't exist. As early as 3rd level, the Arcane Swordsage will be overpowering the entire party with Maneuvers and Alter Self (into a Lizardfolk, or something with equal bonuses). I know what Polymorphing can do, because I've been on both ends of the spell. Most DMs house rule it into the Nerf pile, and even then it is overpowered. WotC had no idea what they were doing with spellcasters when 3rd came out. One would hope that they had learned when ToB was in the works. But this variant proves that the designers have a slim understanding of how easily this game can be broken wide open.
X0_Lt_0X 03-26-08, 05:05 PM	A Variant that is stronger than the original base class itself shouldn't exist. As early as 3rd level, the Arcane Swordsage will be overpowering the entire party with Maneuvers and Alter Self (into a Lizardfolk, or something with equal bonuses). I know what Polymorphing can do, because I've been on both ends of the spell. Most DMs house rule it into the Nerf pile, and even then it is overpowered. WotC had no idea what they were doing with spellcasters when 3rd came out. One would hope that they had learned when ToB was in the works. But this variant proves that the designers have a slim understanding of how easily this game can be broken wide open. also 2nd
X0_Lt_0X 03-26-08, 10:13 PM	Not to mention its the Ultimate Party Buffer. Cast Mage Armor on party in morning Cast Bear's Endurance (Owl's Wisdom, etc) before entering said dungeon Cast Cure X Wounds After combat All of this can be done at will out of combat. And even in combat, you have unlimited spells (though you will have to recover spells after you use your prepared spells).
Novabomb 03-26-08, 10:25 PM	Overpowered yes. There are very few things I consider broken, this is one of them.
archerpwr 03-26-08, 10:35 PM	CO won't touch it.
StruckingFuggle 03-26-08, 10:39 PM	What about TO?
Eldritch_Lord 03-26-08, 10:47 PM	CO won't touch it. Oh yes it will...but only with a maximized empowered split-rayed twinned disintegrate and when at least 400ft away. That's the only appropriate response, I think; nothing else I can think of off the top of my head is that broken right out of the box.
archerpwr 03-26-08, 11:33 PM	What about TO? TO prefers model planes to RC cars. Gotta work for it. TO is typically loopholes, not broke outa da box.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-27-08, 12:00 AM	It can be broken if you exploit it all to pieces, but the same is true of pretty much any full caster. The basic idea is that you're developing a swordsage who attacks with Shocking Grasp and Vampiric Touch and the like; as long as you stick to that theme and some semblance of reasonableness it actually works fairly well.
StruckingFuggle 03-27-08, 12:13 AM	It can be broken if you exploit it all to pieces, but the same is true of pretty much any full caster. Except in this case, it's not that you need to try to break it. It's that you need to not only try not to break it, but make 'bad choices' to not break it. A class that has to be played unintelligently to not be overpowered is ridiculous, more so than one that can be broken by putting thought into it.
Sunic_Flames 03-27-08, 08:25 AM	Except in this case, it's not that you need to try to break it. It's that you need to not only try not to break it, but make 'bad choices' to not break it. A class that has to be played unintelligently to not be overpowered is ridiculous, more so than one that can be broken by putting thought into it. So... just like every other full caster?
Count Arioch the 28th 03-27-08, 11:23 AM	Lack of spells known is a pretty damned big weakness. Why do you think warmages and beguilers are generally looked down upon, and even sorcerers (while good) considered not so good as wizards? I've never seen beguilers looked down upon before.
ZiggZagg 03-27-08, 11:34 AM	You could also go through with the Swordsage Variant and just give them a certain list of spells to pull from from the schools they are given. Something about Alter Self doesn't seem to fit the flavor of the swordsman type that the class is made to be. So go through and tool the lists to the flavor, and you might not have such a horribly broken class...though as others have said I don't really see the same treatment being to the others that have already destroyed the game.
X0_Lt_0X 03-27-08, 04:18 PM	See, it wouldn't be broken if they Actually limited the spells it had access to.
Eldritch_Lord 03-27-08, 04:21 PM	So... just like every other full caster? The difference is that no other full caster can take Adaptive Style to refresh all of their spells as a full-round action and/or pick any spell from any list. Sure, you might only know 3 9th-level spells, but if you can cast them effectively at will and draw from the cleric and wizard lists...that's a bit much.
X0_Lt_0X 03-27-08, 04:25 PM	The difference is that no other full caster can take Adaptive Style to refresh all of their spells as a full-round action and/or pick any spell from any list. Sure, you might only know 3 9th-level spells, but if you can cast them effectively at will and draw from the cleric and wizard lists...that's a bit much. Well Archivist can choose spells from anylist... Pretty much anyways.
Sunic_Flames 03-27-08, 05:23 PM	I thought it was only arcane. And they're at least forced to specialize. Either way, point is like full casters, you have to actively try to make stupid choices to make it suck.
StruckingFuggle 03-27-08, 05:40 PM	And I've seen plenty of decent choices made by wizards who, while powerful, weren't overpowering. I feel that if you ranked classes in order of "a little 'played well' goes a long way", either the Swordsage would come out ahead, or its "breakability coefficient" would be bigger in the short range, perhaps shrinking as the value of effort rose. Which is to say, if you know what you're doing, Wizard > "Spellsage". If you don't 'know what you're doing' but play it with a sort of average degree of mechanical consideration, Spellsage > Wizard.
X0_Lt_0X 03-27-08, 06:02 PM	I thought it was only arcane. And they're at least forced to specialize. Either way, point is like full casters, you have to actively try to make stupid choices to make it suck. They aren't forced to specialize, the text just suggests that they should chose spells from said schools, not that they Have to. Attention to detail is the key. BTW, They can gain spells from the Cleric Domains via Arcane Disciple, and Im sure there are other loop holes into the Divine.
X0_Lt_0X 03-27-08, 06:06 PM	I Which is to say, if you know what you're doing, Wizard > "Spellsage". If you don't 'know what you're doing' but play it with a sort of average degree of mechanical consideration, Spellsage > Wizard. And this is true, Someone who knows how to work the Wizard will come out on top every single time against the SwordSage, enless he rolls 1s :D More Spells Known = More Power