Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Blakk_Magemaster 11-02-04, 05:58 PM	Yes, I ask this question again. A friend and I were talking and the topic of arcane casters hit die came up. I know that balance has to be achieved and always kept in mind, but does anyone else think that the hit die should be changed? I just haven't been able to justify the reason why a core class' hit die would be so measely. What do you think?
Pain The Unbeliever 11-02-04, 06:06 PM	i really dont think arcane hit dies should be changed at all. arcane casters are really, really, really powerful as is. i think they would be to powerful with better hit die.
Silent Poet 11-02-04, 06:13 PM	Arcane spell casters are really powerful to begin with. They are pretty much the swiss army knife of the game. Give them some time and they will have anything you need. Another reason might be that Spell casters werent built for melee combat to begin with. Most of their spells have a range and the ones that don't are reasonably powerful for their level. Additionally, with a bit of time, Arcane spellcaster have no need of worrying about hit points at all. But for the sake of expanding my knowledge, why is it that you think that their hit dice should be bigger? ~Silent Poet
Blakk_Magemaster 11-02-04, 07:29 PM	I understand that they are powerful. They have many spells that can kill in one shot. I just don't think that it is realistic or balanced to make them so frigile. One or two unexpected shots and you're making a new character. The damage weapons and spells do are almost all above what a spellcaster receives. I don't see "power" as an exuse for stupid low hp, especially when hp as a lot to do with "power" in-of-itself.
edsonaoki 11-02-04, 09:27 PM	I understand that they are powerful. They have many spells that can kill in one shot. I just don't think that it is realistic or balanced to make them so frigile. One or two unexpected shots and you're making a new character. The damage weapons and spells do are almost all above what a spellcaster receives. I don't see "power" as an exuse for stupid low hp, especially when hp as a lot to do with "power" in-of-itself. I understand that you have to try to play an arcane caster; at least, try to play one efficiently. My campaign is in the 7th game session, and my wizard was never reduced to less than 0 hp. To show you that it isn't an "easy" campaing, the barbarian (d12 HD), the monk (d8 HD), the cleric (d8 HD) and the healer (d8 HD) were killed at least once, and the barbarian, particullary, was reduced to less than 0 hp many times. There is no secret on surviving with an arcane caster. First, value your defenses. DEX 14 and CON 16, or CON 14 + Improved Toughness feat, is advised. Make heavy use of mage armor and false life at low levels. As your levels get higher, rely on other spells like alter self, overland flight and contingency to protect yourself. Do not forger protective items (as they become available), such as bracers of armor, amulet of natural armor, ring of protection and ring of force shield. Quickened defensive spells also help. Second, know how to position yourself on battle. On the rear line, you will avoid the most dangerous attacks. Even a 10-dice fireball (35 damage avg) isn't nearly as damaging a full attack of a 10th-level raging barbarian (which easilly exceeds 80 points of damage). Arrows also aren't nearly as damaging, and can be avoided by staying prone (-4 penalty to hit you) and using cover. Damaging spells aren't really something to worry if you have taken the procedures described on "First..."
Ravos20 11-02-04, 09:41 PM	they spend most of thier spare time in labs and such out of sunlight and heavy lifting or any kind of work. lets put it in real life perspective. A normal person would have d6... a computer geek would typically have d4. a football jock would have d10... and big guss that eats 4 servings of chicken at lunch would have d12's... see? guy that doesnt use his muscle and body doesnt get a good one. use it or lose it.
BlaineTog 11-02-04, 09:45 PM	A normal person would have d6... A normal person (the Commoner) would have a d4.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 11-02-04, 09:50 PM	Personally, I don't think hit dice should be done according to class. I have known Wizards with higher constitutions than fighters..... I think that the high number that is hit points should be given to the armor instead of the person. I'm sorry, but if I came up to a 20th level fighter who is naked, and take a hard swing with a greatsword at his neck, in the real world he would be dead, but in D&D somehow that naked fighter with 200 hp could withstand a blow like that from say an Ogre with a 21 strength. Doesn't really make sense.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 11-02-04, 09:52 PM	they spend most of thier spare time in labs and such out of sunlight and heavy lifting or any kind of work. lets put it in real life perspective. A normal person would have d6... a computer geek would typically have d4. a football jock would have d10... and big guss that eats 4 servings of chicken at lunch would have d12's... see? guy that doesnt use his muscle and body doesnt get a good one. use it or lose it. What about all those large computer geeks who sit in front of their computers and eat 4 buckets of KFC chicken..Those kind of examples you gave don't really hold sway.
Ravos20 11-02-04, 09:55 PM	it was a generalization... what about a wizard with 24 con that has more hp than the resident fighter? what about him? there are exceptions to generally everything. and i was talking about real life, not the dnd commoner.
edsonaoki 11-02-04, 10:02 PM	Originally Posted by XunValDorl of HouseKilsek Personally, I don't think hit dice should be done according to class. I have known Wizards with higher constitutions than fighters..... I think that the high number that is hit points should be given to the armor instead of the person. I'm sorry, but if I came up to a 20th level fighter who is naked, and take a hard swing with a greatsword at his neck, in the real world he would be dead, but in D&D somehow that naked fighter with 200 hp could withstand a blow like that from say an Ogre with a 21 strength. Doesn't really make sense. Well.. according to Unearthed Arcana, hit points aren't stamina, they are just an abstraction of a character's ability to transform a potentially lethal blow into a less severe wound. A fighter with 200 hp doesn't survive a sword stab on his heart, he simply has the stab hits something else than his heart. Hit points aren't realistic (as 95% of the d20 System aren't), but they work pretty fine this way. There are many so-called "realistic" systems, and I don't bother learning them.
Blakk_Magemaster 11-03-04, 11:01 PM	None of this justifies why arcane casters have d4. Assuming one stays indoors in no reason to say they have less hp then the next guy. Just because one chooses to be a wizard doesn't mean that they are week and can be struck down by a penny. First, value your defenses. DEX 14 and CON 16, or CON 14 + Improved Toughness feat, is advised. Make heavy use of mage armor and false life at low levels. As your levels get higher, rely on other spells like alter self, overland flight and contingency to protect yourself. Do not forger protective items (as they become available), such as bracers of armor, amulet of natural armor, ring of protection and ring of force shield. Quickened defensive spells also help. Second, know how to position yourself on battle. On the rear line, you will avoid the most dangerous attacks. Even a 10-dice fireball (35 damage avg) isn't nearly as damaging a full attack of a 10th-level raging barbarian (which easilly exceeds 80 points of damage). Arrows also aren't nearly as damaging, and can be avoided by staying prone (-4 penalty to hit you) and using cover. Damaging spells aren't really something to worry if you have taken the procedures described on "First..." This is all besides the point, and what I said was after all and any of these "facts". And you can't just assume that your caster can hide behind everyone and still cast their spells and live. I see no mechanical justification to the d4 as hit die.
isaac anthony 11-03-04, 11:49 PM	or... you can eat it at beginning levels and take a few levels of ftr, i did, it's not THAT bad. i also have a +1 con bonus and i'm upgrading my con before int (i have 17 int now, but you don't need a 19 int at 2nd level).
edsonaoki 11-04-04, 08:07 AM	None of this justifies why arcane casters have d4. Assuming one stays indoors in no reason to say they have less hp then the next guy. Just because one chooses to be a wizard doesn't mean that they are week and can be struck down by a penny. Neither I see good reason for all monks have the "quivering palm" ability, or rangers have to choose betweem two-weapon fighting and archery, but that's how the D&D class system works. A wizard doesn't have the same hp as a commoner. A wizard that adventures certainly will have more levels, thus more hit points than your typical farmer. This is all besides the point, and what I said was after all and any of these "facts". And you can't just assume that your caster can hide behind everyone and still cast their spells and live. I see no mechanical justification to the d4 as hit die. What fact? You said that wizards were "fragile", and I disagreed your "fact". If a wizard typically takes 80% less damage than a barbarian on an encounter, it's enough a reason for them to have a lesser HD. You said that "a single spell can kill a wizard outright". Interesting, what spell you are talking about? Save or die spells kill anyone, no matter if it's a wizard, fighter or rogue. Damaging spells? Neither an empowered fireball is enough to kill a 10th-level wizard with CON 16 (and a 10th-level wizard should be lacking his brains walking around without any sort of magical protection). Now, you may ask yourself "what if I want to create a wizard with 12 CON?". Well, obviously it's not a good idea, but then we must have the notion of "dump stats". "Dump stats" are ability scores that doesn't make real difference to a character, thus he may simply assign a low score to it, or redistribute his points to a "more interesting" ability score, or don't spend resources to have magical enhacements to it. A typical wizard already has three dump stats. (STR, WIS and CHA). A rogue, in the other hand, has essentially no dump stats. Even WIS and CHA aren't dump stats for a rogue; WIS affects many skills (Listen, Search, Spot, Sense Motive) and, more importantly, it affects a rogue's bad saving throw. CHA affects the rogue's use magic device skill (an extremly important skill when the rogue fights creatures immune to sneak attacks). When a character has more dump stats, it means that its "non-dump" stats will probably be better than the "non-dump" stats of a character with less dump stats, simply because the second character have to "focus" on more ability scores. For instance, in a point-buy system, a wizard can easilly have better CON than a rogue, which means a wizard will have hit points equal or better than him. Imagin that the wizard that for any reason wants to have CON 12. It isn't different from a fighter which ellects to have STR 12 to increase his Wisdom and Charisma. Does it put him on disadvantage? Usually, yes. Is this unfair? No. Because ability scores aren't meant to be equally useful to all characters. Now, let's compare the "fragility" of the wizard with other character classes. I don't think a wizard is more "fragile" than a 10th-level fighter with +3 Will save, meaning he has 75% chance of succumbing to the next dominate person spell (a dead wizard is a dead wizard, a fighter dominated by the enemy may represent the death of the entire party).
Blakk_Magemaster 11-04-04, 04:53 PM	So, can you please explain how a d4 mechanically fits into the game of DnD? And why almost every weapon and spells uses a higher hit-die? And why an arcane caster is lucky if it gets 100+ hp at EPIC!?
thugpoetry 11-04-04, 05:33 PM	I get the feeling that you're deliberately mis-understanding what other people are trying to say. Nevertheless, I feel compelled to beat my head against the brick wall of your understanding. Look. MECHANICALLY in the game. It's a balance point. Wizards suck at the lower levels, only to point a finger and casually whisper "goodbye" as they obliterate everything in sight at the higher levels. Low hit points help insure that only those wizards who actually act like their 18 intelligence would indicate get to hit the higher levels. And thus wield the power to alter entire campaigns. I know about this power, cause I've done it. :) MECHANICALLY, it's something to balance out the "power" that they receive in the upper levels. Not even a tricked out cleric can handle an equally tricked out wizard. They simply rule high level play. If you don't think so...then you have a very skewed game. Ask around. Ask everyone else on this thread about how powerful wizards are in higher levels. For proof of this assertation that low hit points are a balance for high level arcane spellcasting, I suggest you look around and find a class-building system of some type. You'll notice that full arcane spellcasting takes an ENORMOUS amount of your resources. Picture the typical nerd/geek in high school. Then picture the typical wrestler in high school. The nerd/geek would get the d4, because they don't EXERCISE and EAT WELL and BUILD UP THEIR STAMINA AND MUSCLES. The wrestler, on the other hand, gets the d10 because he does all of the above. Don't believe me? Go to a dictionary and look up the word "atrophy". Your wizard is usually one or two steps above that physically. Comes from spending so much time and energy in the mental world. If that doesn't get through to you, lets try this. A person who trains to fight in the real world doesn't get knocked out by one powerful punch. They've learned how to take a blow or two and keep it together. A normal person can sometimes take a hard shot, but just as often gets KO'ed. The nerd/geek from our earlier example can get thumped and go down. Is that clear enough for you? And just an aside, the 20th level fighter that is getting swung at with a greatsword at his neck, instead of taking it on the neck, which an untrained person or even a 20th level wizard might do, would instinctively dodge out of the way/duck/throw up his hands/keep you from hitting his vital organs. Although trying to match up Hit points with a real world fight rarely works. I could come up with an analogy for it, but it's too complex. Does any of this help get the point through to you, Blakk? Cause if it doesn't, then I'll come back and beat my head against the wall some more.
Thermanshs 11-05-04, 08:26 AM	Blakk_Magemaster From what I've read on your posts it seems like the problem you're facing isn't the frailty of the a-spellcasters itself but how to protect them efficiently. So here are some ways to keep your character standing and excuse me if I repeat something already said: 1.Ajurations offer you protection from: elemental damage,spells,alignment,arrows 2.Illusions duplicate yourself or even frustrate your enemies giving them fake targets,altering your appearance or even vanishing your real self 3.Cover! Unless you're fighting in open field EVERY BATTLEGROUND has somewhere to take cover. From tree to pillar to table to....ALLIED CREATURE...try summoning a bear and watch the results! 4.Distance from your enemies. If your DM has good knowledge of how spotting enemies works you can always keep at fire's range while being far away from a barbarian's axe 5.Keep your Constitution high. Not only does it offer you plenty o' HP but it also boosts your Fort save. Note that ALL save or die spells require a FORT save. DO NOT depend on the die outcome to see if your character would die upon targeted by a slayer spell... 6.Always keep a silenced dimension door in your scroll case!
tompulsar 11-05-04, 09:25 AM	What gets me is that the cleric..a class with up to 9th level spells, two good saves, supernatural abilities, the chance to liquify an entire creature type on a whim (undead), and a fairly good BAB has a d8 for its HD But... rogue = d6 :thinks: not a big gripe mind you..but perplexing to me :blink:
Lord Schpungus 11-05-04, 10:36 AM	but the rogue also has tons of extra damage on every attack it makes (every attack you make as a rogue should be a sneak attack), the ability to completely ignore spells that require reflex saves, enough skill points to scout, sneak, socialize, AND study at the same time, the ability to disarm magic traps, and use scrolls and wands. None of this is on-topic, though, except: They have a better hd than wizards, though, because they can't cast Wish or Disjunction by themselves. EDIT: AND the cleric/druid spell lists are supposed to be inferior, with few direct damage spells. Every splatbook gives them more options, though. If I were to run a game, I might limit the number of spells known to clerics and druids to the number they get in the PHB. That 'know every spell on their list' clause is the real reason people think clerics are getting overpowered. So that was WAY off topic.
edsonaoki 11-05-04, 04:08 PM	Lord Schpungus, I think tompulsar was referring to the fact that clerics have better Hit Dice than rogues. About the clerics' "unlimited spell selection", that's really a problem, taking in consideration how poorly cleric spells from splatbooks are done (it seems that the authors from these books believe every spell is elegible to be a cleric spell, and ignore the fact that the mere existance of these spells includes them in all clerics' repertoires). A possible solution is to give clerics limited knowledge from their spell list, for instance, be able to prepare +4 spells every level plus switch one spell every level.
Blakk_Magemaster 11-06-04, 08:23 PM	I am actualy not having any problem with protecting my arcane casters or keeping them alive for that matter. I have never had an arcane character die on me. I am moer focused on the mechanices. Hit Dice and BAB isn't based on how "social" a character is. An adventuring wizard is not less "adventuring" than a fighter or rogue.
angryman 11-06-04, 08:44 PM	It's not a big deal anyway, with sufficiently massive CON you can give yourself inordinately huge HPs. Such as my dwarven stone wizard with 26 CON at level 10. 112 HPs at level 10. Nobody even thinks of calling him a little girly-man wizard geek, mainly because he has the most HP of anyone in the party.
RayOMan 11-06-04, 08:50 PM	I am moer focused on the mechanices. Hit Dice and BAB isn't based on how "social" a character is. An adventuring wizard is not less "adventuring" than a fighter or rogue. The wizard has spent less time practicing fighting, which would improve BAB at first level and improve stamina/ability to deflect a killing blow into a not so bad blow at first level, and more time studying how to manipulate magical energy and study musty old books. Past 1st level, the wizard starts gaining a better fighting ability, hence the increased BAB. The wizard, after 1st level, also is learning how to deflect a killing blow into a not so killing blow (increase hps). The wizard has to do this at a slower pace because he or she is still studying musty tomes and perfecting his or her ability to manipulate magical energy. Now, if you don't understand this then you might try being a little less obtuse because previous posters have tried to explain to you the reason why mages get a d4. Think of a 20 level wizard with a d6 hit die. That is 6 + CON modifier at first level, then 19 * 3.5 (on average) + CON modifier. That is 72.5 + CON modifier hps. Top that off with the ability to cast Time stop, delay blast fireball (5 sec), delay blast fireball (4 sec), delay blast fireball (3 sec), delay blast fireball (2 sec), delay blast fireball (1 sec) or some other horrible combination. Me thinks that is four fire balls doing 10d6 damage each (35 * 5, on average = 175 pts of damage) that will all go off when time stop ends and the trapped target can't do anything about it. I am sure there is a combo that is much worse. Wait a minute, now that we are giving the wizard a higher hitdie then let's just give them a d12. Now no other class will get played and everyone will be wizards.
Thermanshs 11-07-04, 08:24 AM	I am actualy not having any problem with protecting my arcane casters or keeping them alive for that matter. I have never had an arcane character die on me. The fact that you can sufficiently protect your spellcasters EVEN WITH THIS PETTY D4 HD already gives you the answer about whether the HD needs a boost or not ;)
JBW 11-07-04, 11:31 AM	While I don't really have a problem with Wizards and...that other...useless arcane caster...having d4 HDs, I have noted that nothing uses d4 as a Racial HD. All monsters are in the d6, d8, d10, and d12 range. If there is no monster so frail as to deserve a d4, then why does a class of "monster-hunter" (yes, it's a generalization - just go with it) deserve such a disadvantage. Jay
RayOMan 11-07-04, 05:21 PM	In the first 2 editions of AD&D, monster hitdies were only d8s.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-07-04, 05:58 PM	I'm sorry, but if I came up to a 20th level fighter who is naked, and take a hard swing with a greatsword at his neck, in the real world he would be dead That's why there are Coup de Grace rules for hacking into helpless targets. If the 20th-level fighter isn't completely helpless, the odds of you hitting his neck with a greatsword are approximately zero, meaning that your example no longer applies. Besides, 20th-level Monks, Paladins, Barbarians, Bards, Druids, etc. all have blatantly unrealistic powers; why not a 20th-level Fighter? Wizards channel magic externally as spells; Fighters channel magic internally as their inhuman resilience and abilities. You're not going to find a fully magic-free explanation for the hit points of a typical 20th-level character, so don't complain when the effects aren't entirely realistic.
Nova_blade 11-07-04, 06:19 PM	While I don't really have a problem with Wizards and...that other...useless arcane caster...having d4 HDs, I have noted that nothing uses d4 as a Racial HD. All monsters are in the d6, d8, d10, and d12 range. If there is no monster so frail as to deserve a d4, then why does a class of "monster-hunter" (yes, it's a generalization - just go with it) deserve such a disadvantage. Jay Yes, but monsters cannot cast the vast majority of spells that wizards do, and are not designed to work in a team. A demilich has a higher hit die than a wizard and can cast a huge number of spells, but that's because it's designed as a creature that four or more PC's take on as a team. The simplest mechanical explanation for why a wizard has the d4 hitdie, as has been repeated time and time again, is to balance out the fact they can wipe out a horde of monsters with a well placed fireball (or other flashy pyrotechnical spell of your choice). They are literally designed as artillery; able to deal out lots of damage but take very little in return. The small hitdie emphasizes the teamwork part of the game. Giving the wizard a higher hitdie would defeat the purpose of having to work as a team.
trapspringer 11-07-04, 06:20 PM	An average person in the United States is an expert. This average person is average in most of the world. Hence, the average person has a d6. Probobly 2 or 3 by middle age.
Blakk_Magemaster 11-07-04, 08:37 PM	I know that arcane casters have powerful spells, but they are not automatic. There are saves and what not involved. Just the same, other classes can be devisating, but they don't have d4. And what Jay said is something I keep bringing to mind. I don't believe monsters weren't designed to work as a team, as you usually run into more then one. And I think d6 can empisize teamwork enough.
JBW 11-07-04, 10:57 PM	An average person in the United States is an expert. This average person is average in most of the world. Hence, the average person has a d6. Probobly 2 or 3 by middle age. No way; the average person is most certainly not an Expert. In the modern day, Expert would include highly technical fields while Aristocrat would contain many of the white-collar professions. Some fields, such as medical doctors, would be a mix between the two. Still, for every computer tech, lawyer, doctor, pilot, or engineer there will still be ten Commoners. These are your conveince store clerks, gas station attendants, taxi drivers, customer service representatives (you don't really think that a telemarketer is an Expert, do you?), construction workers, etc. Sadly, if you try to go modern you still have to ask yourself why the politician (Aristocrat) has a better HD type than the construction worker (Commoner). Taking this back to the D&D model, it becomes pretty damn clear that hps are not simply based upon physical activity. Besides, 20th-level Monks, Paladins, Barbarians, Bards, Druids, etc. all have blatantly unrealistic powers; why not a 20th-level Fighter? Wizards channel magic externally as spells; Fighters channel magic internally as their inhuman resilience and abilities. So a Fighter's high hit points and Feats go away in an anti-magic field? I didn't think so. Your argument holds merit in a system like WW's Exalted where extra health levels are beyond mortal ability and only the godlike beings (including most PCs) have them. Jay
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-07-04, 11:44 PM	So a Fighter's high hit points and Feats go away in an anti-magic field? So a Lich or Golem shuts down in an anti-magic field? That spell doesn't eliminate all magic, only certain specified effects.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-07-04, 11:49 PM	An average person in the United States is an expert. Probably false, but also irrelevant; by the DMG, the vast majority of people are Commoners. the average person has a d6. Probobly 2 or 3 by middle age. False according to the DMG. It says (IIRC) most people never exceed 2nd or 3rd level; it by no means says that most people ever attain second or third level. By the population distributions given in the DMG, something like 95% of people are level 1.
angryman 11-08-04, 12:21 AM	An average person in the United States is an expert :rolleyes: I don't want to start anything here, just...no, ok?
AnujaShadow 11-08-04, 01:31 AM	Just to say this: In a current campaign that i'm in, I designed my friend's Sorc (his first time with Arcane non-bard)...By 20th level, he has close to 300 hitpoints, and has caster level 19. Sorc 15 Human Paragon 3 Archmage 2
Blakk_Magemaster 11-08-04, 10:36 PM	300 hit points is probably over doing it but these previous posts have proved my point. Hit die cannot be based on supposed physical ability or where they line up in combat. I had more to say but forgot. I'll be back.....
Lord Schpungus 11-09-04, 12:08 AM	I get the feeling that you're deliberately mis-understanding what other people are trying to say. Nevertheless, I feel compelled to beat my head against the brick wall of your understanding. Look. MECHANICALLY in the game. It's a balance point. Wizards suck at the lower levels, only to point a finger and casually whisper "goodbye" as they obliterate everything in sight at the higher levels. Low hit points help insure that only those wizards who actually act like their 18 intelligence would indicate get to hit the higher levels. And thus wield the power to alter entire campaigns. I know about this power, cause I've done it. :) MECHANICALLY, it's something to balance out the "power" that they receive in the upper levels. Not even a tricked out cleric can handle an equally tricked out wizard. They simply rule high level play. If you don't think so...then you have a very skewed game. Ask around. Ask everyone else on this thread about how powerful wizards are in higher levels. Blakk. Look at this guy's post. It's all there. You want a high hp wizard, put a high ability score in Con. Boom. That represents your ungeeky toughness.
Lord Schpungus 11-09-04, 09:54 AM	Sadly, if you try to go modern you still have to ask yourself why the politician (Aristocrat) has a better HD type than the construction worker (Commoner). Taking this back to the D&D model, it becomes pretty damn clear that hps are not simply based upon physical activity. Well, going back to D&D (Where we're arguing hit points) the aristocrat has a better hit die than the commoner because he grew up rich, getting fed every day and not wallowing in the gutter with the rats (like the commoner). To take this back to the modern world, the aristocrat is someone who can pay for medicine when they're sick and has lots of luxury items. Barring genetic illness, they're going to be generally healthier than someone who has to worry about whether they can buy food next week, and can't afford a doctor. So I guess I'm saying that hit points are partly general health and partly activity based. The wizard scribing tomes inside a musty tower is less likely to be tough in a fight than the fighter, who has been outdoors, learning how not to go down in the first blow. Besides, MECHANICALLY it's necessary.
edsonaoki 11-09-04, 10:29 AM	Well, going back to D&D (Where we're arguing hit points) the aristocrat has a better hit die than the commoner because he grew up rich, getting fed every day and not wallowing in the gutter with the rats (like the commoner). To take this back to the modern world, the aristocrat is someone who can pay for medicine when they're sick and has lots of luxury items. Barring genetic illness, they're going to be generally healthier than someone who has to worry about whether they can buy food next week, and can't afford a doctor. So I guess I'm saying that hit points are partly general health and partly activity based. The wizard scribing tomes inside a musty tower is less likely to be tough in a fight than the fighter, who has been outdoors, learning how not to go down in the first blow. Besides, MECHANICALLY it's necessary. Not quite. the aristocrat has d8 Hit Dice (and it's proficient with all weapons and armor), because it's based on feudal nobles, which trained themselves for war and often joined battles personally. Knights were not soldiers, they were people with noble lineage but no rights to possess lands (often due to not being the eldest sons of the feudal lords). How do you think they had money to afford such expensive horses and armor? On medieval times, the Christian Church called clerics "the ones who pray", peasants "the ones who work" and nobles "the ones who fight". :)
Blakk_Magemaster 11-11-04, 11:19 AM	Constitution scores have nothing to do with a core classes base hit-die. I don't see how it is mechanically necessary? Uping it to d6 is not going to throw the gaming world off balance. And assuming the a would-be wizard sits around in a moldy, dank tower is no where near enough to give all wizards d4. Nothing else in the gaming world as d4 as base hit-die besides the commoner. The commoner, the lowest of lows, is the only thing with d4 and rightly so. But an adventuring class can not be balanced with d4 hit die. It leads to stereotypical characters and rudunant marching orders.
amoeba6 11-11-04, 11:41 AM	sigh, not this again. I remember having this discussion on the old boards. I'll reiterate my old arguments again. With simple spells such as false life, arcane spellcasters can match rogues/bards HP wise. When polymorph comes in to play, arcane spellcasters shoot past all classes in HP.
amoeba6 11-11-04, 11:46 AM	Constitution scores have nothing to do with a core classes base hit-die. I don't see how it is mechanically necessary? Uping it to d6 is not going to throw the gaming world off balance. And assuming the a would-be wizard sits around in a moldy, dank tower is no where near enough to give all wizards d4. Nothing else in the gaming world as d4 as base hit-die besides the commoner. The commoner, the lowest of lows, is the only thing with d4 and rightly so. But an adventuring class can not be balanced with d4 hit die. It leads to stereotypical characters and rudunant marching orders. upping a rogue/bard's HP to d8 won't throw off balance either, and one could argue that that is more neccesary than upping arcane caster HD to d6.
Naeron 11-11-04, 11:56 AM	None of this justifies why arcane casters have d4. Assuming one stays indoors in no reason to say they have less hp then the next guy. Just because one chooses to be a wizard doesn't mean that they are week and can be struck down by a penny. Well it does. HP do not represent only physical toughness. "What Hit Points Represent: Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one." As long as you accept this definition, which you have to do if you play with D&D hit points this logically leads to the following. Is a fighter physically more tough than a Wizard (if both have the same constitution), the answer probably has to be not really. So the difference must be in their relative abilities to turn a serious blow into a less serious one. Wizards are less able in combat than fighters (as represented by their descriptions and by their lower BAB progression), part of combat ability is mitigating damage, just as part of it is doing damage. As a class that is not focused on mitigating damage the wizard should have less ability to do so than the fighter whose profession needs that focus. Thus the wizard should be proportionally more affected by any given damageing attack than the fighter. This is represented by the wizard gaining fewer Hit Points per level - they are just not a skilled at turning a serious blow into a less serious one.
Blakk_Magemaster 11-11-04, 01:38 PM	Well it does. HP do not represent only physical toughness. "What Hit Points Represent: Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one." As long as you accept this definition, which you have to do if you play with D&D hit points this logically leads to the following. Is a fighter physically more tough than a Wizard (if both have the same constitution), the answer probably has to be not really. So the difference must be in their relative abilities to turn a serious blow into a less serious one. Wizards are less able in combat than fighters (as represented by their descriptions and by their lower BAB progression), part of combat ability is mitigating damage, just as part of it is doing damage. As a class that is not focused on mitigating damage the wizard should have less ability to do so than the fighter whose profession needs that focus. Thus the wizard should be proportionally more affected by any given damageing attack than the fighter. This is represented by the wizard gaining fewer Hit Points per level - they are just not a skilled at turning a serious blow into a less serious one. I understand and agree with this completely. I just don't see why it has to be d4. That is rediculously low. I think d6 could represent this very well without crushing the arcane casters hp wise.
Blakk_Magemaster 11-28-04, 07:14 PM	:bump:
fractal 11-28-04, 07:29 PM	I understand and agree with this completely. I just don't see why it has to be d4. That is rediculously low. I think d6 could represent this very well without crushing the arcane casters hp wise. Why is a d4 "ridiculously low"? It's just a number. What exactly makes it ridiculous?
Arcane Guyver 11-28-04, 07:53 PM	I've thought a couple times that the Sorc should get boosted to d6 (kind of like how the limited Wilder has higher HD than the Psion). But anyways - you want lots of HP right off the bat: Put a high score in Con, Toughness, get a Toad familiar as soon as possible. If you're really concerned, take Toughness twice if you're a human. Maybe take Improved Toughness later on.
Blakk_Magemaster 11-28-04, 07:54 PM	The fact that it is the lowest die in the game, hardly anything from other creatures to weapons use it, and the fact that they actually gave to a core class. That's why it's ridiculous.
fractal 11-28-04, 08:29 PM	The fact that it is the lowest die in the game, hardly anything from other creatures to weapons use it, and the fact that they actually gave to a core class. That's why it's ridiculous. Merely being the "lowest die in the game" means nothing, what matters is having the smallest hit die in the game. Someone has to have the smallest hit die in the game. Do you think that there's some other class that it makes more sense for than primary Arcane spellcasters?
BlaineTog 11-28-04, 08:54 PM	The fact that it is the lowest die in the game, hardly anything from other creatures to weapons use it, and the fact that they actually gave to a core class.It most certainly is not the lowest die in the game. There are d3s and even d2s. The fact that it's rare is completelly irrelevant; d12s are even rarer. As for giving it to a core class... it's given to the frailest and least fighting-intensive of all the classes. No one spends less time in "combat training" than Sor/Wiz. No one. (Spellcasting doesn't count). Sorcerers and Wizards have few hit points because they put every piece of "class power" into their spellcasting, every spare moment of time into their magic. 2+Int skills, poor BaB, 1 good save, d4 HD, crap-tastic weapons, no armor, virtually no class features. It's all part of a strong theme. And on top of this, it's pointless. Sorcerers and Wizards don't need more hit points to be balanced; if anything, they could stand to have fewer. Of course, we're talking in circles here.
Zathyr 11-28-04, 09:40 PM	Wizards have always had a d4 for hit dice in all the various incarnations of D&D I've ever seen. They have continued to be a very popular class. And they were far more frail in earlier editions. Balance and fairness are generally represented pretty well by the choices of the masses. Who looks at the wizard and thinks "Oooh, Time Stop! Oh, but d4s for hit dice? No, thank you!"
saethar 11-28-04, 10:06 PM	If you want to play an arcane caster with d6 HP play a battle sorcerer (UA). Their d6 and better BAB is off-set by less spells. Class HD is based solely on the martial training a class receives. Period. Physical build of a character is represented by your Con score, nothing else (barring feats like toughness/improved toughness, etc...). Personally, I have a much bigger problem with the various skill points assigned to classes (and class skills) than with the HD any class gets. Saethar :b:
Grigori 11-28-04, 11:09 PM	If you want to make things REALLY interesting do this: Get rid of HD. Make a Character's HP = their constitution + their Constitution modifier. Give them a +1 HP every time their BAB improves. Give Barbarains Toughness for free at 1st level. Now (mostly) everybody has about 14-22 HP at 1st level. And about 20-40 (generalization at 20th). Magic hurts. Alot. While you're at it, give all classes dodge bonuses (as per UA) and have Armor give Damage Reduction. On top of that, for big scary damage die (sneak attacks and spells) have any odd die rolls = 1. Death comes swift for the dumb and unprepared. Wizards and Sorcerers HP are just fine. If you don't like them, use a different class. i.e. Battle Sorcerer Variant (UA) or the Warmage (CA). Think Clerics are too tough? Use the Cloistered Cleric Variant (UA).
Arcane Guyver 11-28-04, 11:37 PM	Actually, the Battle Sorc gets a d8. Higher BAB, HD two steps higher, one martial weapon prof & light armor, bards ability to ignore arcane spell failure. All for the price of 10 spells per day and 10 spells known. :evillaugh Still can't get over how cool the Battle Sorc is.
Shadowbane 11-28-04, 11:38 PM	A normal person (the Commoner) would have a d4. I think sorcerer's should get d6! ;)
Felonious Monk 11-28-04, 11:44 PM	If you think about it, the wizard's hit die is above average. It's the same as a commoner's, and commoners are... average. But a wizard is an adventurer, and as such gets a full hit die. So the 1st level wizard has 0, 1, 2, or 3 HP more than an average person with the same constitution. And then he levels... Why do monsters have d8s or whatever and regular people have d4s? The real question is Why are these squishy pink things with no claws, fangs, or scales out in the wilds in the first place? There's clearly nothing unbalancing about using caltrops for hit dice when it comes to full arcane casters. People (like me) still play them, and for keeps, too.
saethar 11-29-04, 12:22 AM	Another UA option is the VP/WP, where VP takes the place of HP, and WP = Con (+Con modifier? don't remember). VP grows with the char and gets damaged first, after VP = 0 you still have WP which then get whittled away (WP don't grow). *shrug* Saethar :b:
Wil_Hyral 11-29-04, 12:33 AM	So, can you please explain how a d4 mechanically fits into the game of DnD? And why almost every weapon and spells uses a higher hit-die? And why an arcane caster is lucky if it gets 100+ hp at EPIC!? Yes I can. The wizard trades physical health for metaphysical potency. Does that make any mechanical sense to you? I'm not sure I could break it down any easier than that.
spamfiltre 11-29-04, 11:00 AM	I just don't see why it has to be d4. That is rediculously low. This statement shows that you are missing the point of classes and the multiclass system. Philosophically, a wizard is going to focus on the study of magic. He is going to put all of his trust in magic, including the trust to protect him from harm. He isn't going to learn to avoid blows, he's going to learn Mage Armor and False Life. Likewise, he isn't going to train with martial weapons, because a Magic Missle never misses, and a Scorching Ray does more average damage than any normal weapon. So, he isn't as likely to avoid a blow in combat as the fighter who doesn't have magic to protect him, or even the Rogue who learns to dodge blows because he can't wear heavier armor and still be sneaky. Then you have the odd wizard who says, "that fighter sure can deal with combat situations well, maybe I should take a few lessons." The wizard multiclasses into fighter, gets the better hit die, weapons and armor proficiencies, and bonus fighter feat, but all that training time has cut into his study of magic. He has more hit points and versatility in combat, but isn't as advanced in the arcane arts as a rival wizard that speant all his time studying magic. Similarly, a low DEX fighter might see the wizards casting Magic Missle and say, "it would be really nice to have a ranged attach that never misses." So he studies magic for a while, but isn't training as hard, so hit hit die drops... Think about why a character is the class (or classes) he is, rather than just looking at stats on a page, and you'll see that the hit die types are appropriate. Oh, and it's a GAME with BALANCE ISSUES.
Trisstessa 11-29-04, 05:24 PM	Blakk, I think you are reading too far into this. The reason for the d4 as a wizard's HD is a balance issue. If a wizard finds himself in combat at melee range he is supposed to be fragile. Wizards and sorcerers do not have as great an ability to mitigate damage dealt to them as other classes. If you were to up a wizards HD to d6 I think you would have to first justify why a class that doesn't take large amounts of time practicing damage mitigation has the sme HD as a rogue. If you think they have far too few in your campaign, and you are the DM, then change it to what you want, but I personally feel that wizards HD are fine just as they are. This observation comes from 10 years of playing almost nothing but wizards. Quite often I have more HP then anyone in the party, except the fighter types, as levels progress. As wizard, I have more dump stats then other classes, and so can put my second best stat into Con, trust me as levels progress that Con bonus adds quite abit of HP. :weep: