Arcane + Divine + Psionic all in one? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane + Divine + Psionic all in one? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Force
12-03-05, 08:23 AM I am starting a new character and I would like him to be VERY versatile, and in doing so want arcane, divine(druid or cleric?) and psionic.

Is there a Prc that has (simmilar to Mystic Theurge) increases to manifester in addition with arcane and divine progrssion? If not how would you set the prerequisites for such a Prc?
Votan
12-03-05, 08:36 AM I am starting a new character and I would like him to be VERY versatile, and in doing so want arcane, divine(druid or cleric?) and psionic.

Is there a Prc that has (simmilar to Mystic Theurge) increases to manifester in addition with arcane and divine progrssion? If not how would you set the prerequisites for such a Prc?

The requirements for double progression classes are already harsh. Ignoring the huge pre-requisites for the Fochlucean Lyricist, the Mystic theurge requires 3 levels in 2 classes (or possibly 4 levels if you use sorcerer/favored soul) as does the cerebromancer. Arcane Hierophant requires 3 plus 4 levels.

In all cases this hurts overall casting drastically. Trying to make a triple progression class would require similar requirements to avoid it being over balanced; something like 2nd level spells/manifestations would be a minimum but that would have you between level 9 and 11 with second level powers!

:eek:

My advice is to pick 2 and go with them . . .

Cerebromancer seems the strongest to me . . .
Force
12-03-05, 08:44 AM Yes, I was thinking of having it require 2nd lvl from each, (starts at 10-11 if sorc). In the end, if I did it like this + some knowledge and all.. I would have 7th lvl spells in the 3 classes by 20th. It seems a good tradeoff for the versability...
Votan
12-03-05, 09:22 AM Yes, I was thinking of having it require 2nd lvl from each, (starts at 10-11 if sorc). In the end, if I did it like this + some knowledge and all.. I would have 7th lvl spells in the 3 classes by 20th. It seems a good tradeoff for the versability...

I dunno; if we went with the 2nd level powers/spells in 3 classes the most optimized entry would be:

Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Psion 3 (unless you wnet both sorcerer and wilder)

That is a 9th level character casting 2nd level spells.

So you have:

BAB +3 :eek:
Saves F/R/W: +5/+3/+9
Base Hitpoints (starting with cleric): 32

2 spellcasting attributes (so without high point buy it's hard to get other stats high). With the elite array you would have:

Str 10 Dex 12 Con 13 Int 15 Wis 14 Cha 8 (notice that a wizard ends up with better dex or con and that helps with survivablity)

Feats are a mess. Unless you pick spells with extreme care you will have to burn 2 of 8 feats (assuming human) on practiced caster.

A ninth level wizard is casting 5th level spells (like teleport, dominate person and baleful polymorph) while you are casting scorching ray (with +3 BAB so you'll actually miss), spiritual weapon and energy missile for 3d6 damage (if you have the right type of psion).

A ninth level mystic theurge is casting as a 6th level caster and so will ahve a decent array of 3rd level spells and one level later is casting 4th level spells while you remain with 2nd.

7th level spells kicks in at 19th or 20th level and that assumes that triple progression all the way through is okay. It's possible that a DM could stagger triple progression (say only 2 classes progression at levels 1, 4, 7 and 10) which would pretty much kill off this class.

The class would (based on other examples) have d4 hit points, one good save (almost certainly will) and poor BAB so the bad entrance numbers wouldn't really change later on.

If you want flexibility in spells, this might be a good way to go at very high levels but consider some options with high degrees of flexibility that play better from levels 1 to 20:

Bard 1/Barbarian 2/Bard 2 to 8/Sublime Chord 1+ (nice combination of tough, skills and spells)

Sorcerer 4/Wilder 4/Cerebromancer 10/Archmage 2 (ultimate spontaneous caster and makes best core use of the wild surge ability by getting out early as cost to surge scales based on wilder level)

Druid 6/Wizard 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Druid 7 (wildshape, arcane and divien spells, hybrid familar animal companion -- pretty nice overall combination and is very flexible).

Barbarian (or Fighter or Ranger) 1/Sorcerer 4/Eldritch Knight 4/Divine Crusader 2/Mystic Theurge 9

All of these would be flexible and play better in the mid-game.
BadCatMan
12-03-05, 09:28 AM I don't think it would work - the only way to get caster/manifester levels in one would be to lose caster/manifester levels in the others.

Anyway, a base of Wizard / Psion / Archivist would have the least problems, IMO. Intelligence would be the casting stat for all.
Seeker of Undeath
12-03-05, 10:05 AM The idea's nice, but it's too unfocused to accomplish anything. As pointed out you'll be rediculously behind the curve on power level. You'll have a lot of options, but none of them will be wonderful. The idea just spreads itself too thin.

As pointed out you're going to want to require second level spells/powers in all. At a minimum that's giving up six caster levels before even hopping into the PrC you'd be making. Even Practiced Spellcaster won't help you sufficiently. Lots of options? Sure. Sadly almost all of them will be inadequate.

Generally the jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none doesn't get really far in D&D unless there are some self-imposed limits. I could take a level of almost every PHB class, but I wouldn't be very good at anything in particular except maybe for my saves.

IF your DM were having you play a gestalt game and was foolish (imo) enough to allow you to continue using dual progression classes, I'd recommend doing something like a Wizard5/Psion5/Cerebromancer10//Archivist20. Aside from that it' just doesn't seem feasible.
DM_Dracophile
12-03-05, 10:50 AM Or, if you're not convinced it's broken, the Erudite makes a nice companion to both the Wizard and Archivist. The quintessential seeker of lore...whether Arcane, Psionic, or Divine.

Neat to play...but prolly sucks until very high lvls
Seerow
12-03-05, 11:15 AM There was a build on the CharOp board that got 9th level spells/powers in all 3 classes. It involved a somewhat questionable technique of leveling down though... so it might be better to just stick with two.
Seeker of Undeath
12-03-05, 11:36 AM I vaguely remember that thread. I'd also agree that the premise was nice on paper, but like Pun-Pun it's harder to get past a DM or party. Conventionally speaking, a triple threat of this sort is not a great idea.

I suppose you could make a nice Theurge, use a Thought Bottle, burn all your XP on Wishes (and/or Enervate yourself and purposefully fail the Fort saves), level back up as something else. Thereafter use the bottle to get your knowledge back. Once again this is unlikely in the extreme to ever happen in play, but it's a thought. It's also a reason I forbid the bottles (the infinite wish mechanic).
Force
12-03-05, 06:21 PM Well, we're playing with fractionnal bab and saves (from UA) so the bab won't be so bad, and I was thinking like BadCatMan said of using wiz/archivist/psion in the build, or sorc/favored soul/wilder (I think these all cast from cha?) but if I do this it will be higher till I can get in the class so I think I'm gonna stick to the first. As for the Stregth of the caracter, the group need a jack-of-all-trade that can be a utility man. I will explore the bard idea, but higher lvl the way I was thinking of making it would be more powerful (7th in 3 classes). As all of you people think it's actually UNDERPOWERED, I'm pretty sure I'll get the go-ahead to take it. Anyone got a good name for it? :)
caeruleus
12-03-05, 06:37 PM Ever thought of making your own base class? It would be quite a trick to keep it balanced, though.
Seeker of Undeath
12-03-05, 07:26 PM Well, we're playing with fractionnal bab and saves (from UA) so the bab won't be so bad, and I was thinking like BadCatMan said of using wiz/archivist/psion in the build, or sorc/favored soul/wilder (I think these all cast from cha?) but if I do this it will be higher till I can get in the class so I think I'm gonna stick to the first. As for the Stregth of the caracter, the group need a jack-of-all-trade that can be a utility man. I will explore the bard idea, but higher lvl the way I was thinking of making it would be more powerful (7th in 3 classes). As all of you people think it's actually UNDERPOWERED, I'm pretty sure I'll get the go-ahead to take it. Anyone got a good name for it? :)Yes, the idea of casting/manifesting 7th-level spells/powers from all those lists is a very wonderful idea. The issue everyone has is the part where you get there. On the way up you'll be miserable. If you're starting out around 15th level or better, I imagine you'll be fairly happy. The issue most have is that it's not very effective in the early to mid game, but it's got potential in the late game. Of course you're also severely delaying any chance at epic casting/manifesting, but that's not likely to bother you.

Personally I think you should just play an artificer and call it a day.
StevenO
12-03-05, 10:34 PM A PrC that advances all three this would probably look a lot like the Mystic Theurge with a few exceptions.

Prerequisites such that 3+ levels in each category is needed
HD=1d4, Good Save=None (or Will if feeling generous), BAB=no improvement, Skill=2 per level, Special= +1 Increase in Arcane & Divine spellcasting level and manifester Level for each PrC level

Using the TM as a base you don't have much to give up to add manifester levels and entry requirements should put the character well behind others in terms of power. Generally this isn't a good idea.
Leress
12-03-05, 10:41 PM You can go to rpgnow.com and download the free issue of Poor Gamer's Almanac (September 2005) it has a prestige class called the Renaissance Magus that use arcane and divine spells and psionics. I think i maybe what you are looking for.
HalfMunchkin
12-03-05, 10:58 PM There was a build on the CharOp board that got 9th level spells/powers in all 3 classes. It involved a somewhat questionable technique of leveling down though... so it might be better to just stick with two.

With the search the way it is, does anybody know the title of the thread so I can find it easier?
savant_warlord13
12-03-05, 11:19 PM you guys need to head over to Eberron and check out the precocious apprentice feat
Force
12-04-05, 02:30 AM Ebberon? It's in Complete Arcane..
And yes it could help 'lessen' the hurt, what about a human with the apprentice rule (can't find it in 3.5 DMG, is it gone?) and both first lvl feats these for archivist and wizard? It would look much better at mid level with this.
Tempest Stormwind
12-04-05, 05:07 AM By the way, Precocious Apprentice won't work with arcane/divine theurges. When you gain your second-level spells from the divine half, PA stops giving you your 2nd level arcane spells. Carefully read the feat again. (This is not an issue with the cerebremancer, so Wiz 1 / Erudite 3 / Cerebremancer 2 can get you the 2nd-level spells needed to survive the loss of PA.)

With the search the way it is, does anybody know the title of the thread so I can find it easier?
It's complicated, involves fast-progression PrCs like Ur-Priest instead of actual base class levels, and it completely sucks through the mid levels.

If you DO get it working, then you're lucky and backed up by your team. (The above build should aim for qualifying for Ur-Priest or Blighter if possible. Sublime Chord or Nar Demonbinder are usual fast-progression arcane fillouts. There's also a Dragon PrC somewhere -- I forget where -- called the Mind Mage, which lets you do some sick, sick, sick stuff with your caster/manifester levels, and is generally considered superior in every way to the Cerebremancer (except in terms of prerequisites).)
gbnogkfs
12-04-05, 07:18 AM By the way, Precocious Apprentice won't work with arcane/divine theurges. When you gain your second-level spells from the divine half, PA stops giving you your 2nd level arcane spells. Carefully read the feat again. (This is not an issue with the cerebremancer, so Wiz 1 / Erudite 3 / Cerebremancer 2 can get you the 2nd-level spells needed to survive the loss of PA.)

in fact, if you really read that feat well, it is never said the extra spell you get is "arcane"... :rolleyes:
runestar
12-04-05, 07:47 AM I can just imagine the epic progression if wotc ever released such a prc - +1 to each spellcasting lv every 3 lvs..... :rolleyes:
Force
12-04-05, 07:49 AM About that Mind Mage, anyone got anything more specific on it? Like what it can do and where exactly it is?
Always-Late
12-04-05, 02:43 PM I'm pretty sure that thought-bottle mess was the Word (look up "The Wish and the Word.") It also had a caster level of 155.
Esponer
12-04-05, 04:23 PM I am starting a new character and I would like him to be VERY versatile, and in doing so want arcane, divine(druid or cleric?) and psionic.

Is there a Prc that has (simmilar to Mystic Theurge) increases to manifester in addition with arcane and divine progrssion? If not how would you set the prerequisites for such a Prc?

The idea isn't going to work very well by any normal means. Your best bet is probably the Chameleon from Complete Adventurer. If you don't have the book, Google for the Chameleon - I don't have the link, but it's on the WotC website somewhere.

Still not perfect, as you need to introduce your own psionic element to the Chameleon (which I don't think it should include for flavour reasons, but it's much more likely to be passed by your DM than any of the level-losing breaks which get you to the same place).
HalfMunchkin
12-04-05, 04:35 PM Here is a PrC I have been working for a while that you may want to use, if you thinkm it is balanced. Here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7916551#post7916551)
Maraxus
12-04-05, 05:25 PM I would say take a mystic theuge and make it Phrenic.
Force
12-04-05, 05:48 PM I would say take a mystic theuge and make it Phrenic.

What's Phrenic, I never heard of that?

About Mind mage, anyone knows the Dragon mag no#?
The Vorpal Tribble
12-04-05, 05:54 PM What's Phrenic, I never heard of that?
Its a template from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. However, I really don't encourage players to have template myself, but as you are going for an arcane/divine/psi, you'd probably not be particularly worried about that kind of thing.

Heres a link to it... (http://srd.pbemnexus.com/psionicMonsters.html#phenric-creature)
a_psh
12-04-05, 07:27 PM OP, you're operating from an incorrect basis, which is that a mixture of all three is fundamentally the most versatile caster. Given how much overlap there is between divine, arcane, and psionic powers, this isn't really the case. For example, what big types of abilities does a psion specifically have that a wizard or cleric doesn't? A wizard/cleric or psion/cleric can heal and nuke and buff and has all sorts of utility powers (the wizard more so than the psion, in many cases). What specifically does adding the third class here help?
gbnogkfs
12-05-05, 12:40 AM OP, you're operating from an incorrect basis, which is that a mixture of all three is fundamentally the most versatile caster. Given how much overlap there is between divine, arcane, and psionic powers, this isn't really the case. For example, what big types of abilities does a psion specifically have that a wizard or cleric doesn't? A wizard/cleric or psion/cleric can heal and nuke and buff and has all sorts of utility powers (the wizard more so than the psion, in many cases). What specifically does adding the third class here help?

Roleplay and fun, I suppose... :D
Force
12-05-05, 12:46 AM Well, it has a lot more spells(powers)/day, and some powers(or spells) don't have any equivalent in the other classes..

As for the build I'm looking to make right now :
Human Psion/Archvist (apprentice rule) with both feats Precopious apprentice (I cleared it with my DM for the psion equivalent),
So:
1 Wiz
2 Psion
3 Archvist
4 Cerebromancer or MT
5 Cerebromancer or MT (Psychic Reformation one of the Precopious feat for the archivist)
6-15 Master of Spells and Mind?
16-20+ Cerebro-MT or mind mage (if it's good)

Critiques or ideas on how to improve on this?

Edit : Oh, and yes having fun with having ALL(or almost) the spells and powers that exists :)
a_psh
12-05-05, 01:37 AM Roleplay and fun, I suppose... :DI can dig that. Stated goal was versatility, though, and I'm just making sure that we're not missing the obvious (that there's so much overlap that any two can fill in for all three pretty well in almost any situation) before chugging ahead. ;)
Khan the Destroyer
12-05-05, 02:09 AM I'll try to get the build so that it isn't absolutely atrocious for you at lower levels. But bear in mind I do not know what books you have available to you and any other restrictions on your game.

Wizard 1 (Precosious Apprentice, Spell Focus: Evil)
Psion 1
Psion 2
Psion 3 (Iron Will)
Cerebremancer 1
Cerebremancer 2
Cerebremancer 3
Mindbender 1 (Psionic Version)
Ur-Priest 1
Ur-Priest 2
Trinity Class 1-10

This nets you:

Wizard- Caster level 14, 7th level spells.
Psion- Manifester level 17, 9th level powers.
Ur-Priest- Caster level 12, 9th level spells.

So, at level 20 you would have 9th level powers and 9th level divine spells, as well as 7th level arcane spells.

Until then, you aren't as bas as you could be. Levels 2-8 you are pretty much a standard psion (minus 1 level due to the wizard level). At levels 9 and 10 you are on par with a regular Theurge character. After that, you are still a little behind (like any Theurge), but you are increasing your power in all 3 classes.

Hope this helps, though I don't know what you have access to.
Force
12-05-05, 02:52 AM I have access to pretty much all WotC books 3.5, Dragons mag are on case-by-case. We are also using UA fractionnal BAB and saves and maybe I can use 1 flaw..

As For your build, I like it, but could it not be better using the apprentice rule(from 3.0 as I can't find it in 3.5 DMG) to level up 2 class with 2nd lvl spells/powers and then enter MT or Cerebro 2 lvl sooner?

Wiz/Psion lvl 0 precosious apprentice x2
1 Wiz
2 psi
3 Cerebromancer

Or something in these lines?
gbnogkfs
12-05-05, 02:57 AM I have access to pretty much all WotC books 3.5, Dragons mag are on case-by-case.

As For your build, I like it, but could it not be better using the apprentice rule(from 3.0 as I can't find it in 3.5 DMG)

maybe it could; the problem is apprentice rules are not 3.5 :D (you cannot find them because they are not there. gooood move however.)
Force
12-05-05, 03:02 AM I don't know how to get to Ur-Priest faster with this tho (because of the +3 fort save) Any idea?

Edit :Nm I now know why the mindbender was there. Also, when you say psionic version, do you just mean that it adds +1 manifester instead of arcane, or is there an other somewhere?
Khan the Destroyer
12-05-05, 04:15 AM Yes. In the Adaptation section for the Mindbender prestige class it explains how to use it as a psionic prestige class instead of arcane.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Force 12-03-05, 08:23 AM	I am starting a new character and I would like him to be VERY versatile, and in doing so want arcane, divine(druid or cleric?) and psionic. Is there a Prc that has (simmilar to Mystic Theurge) increases to manifester in addition with arcane and divine progrssion? If not how would you set the prerequisites for such a Prc?
Votan 12-03-05, 08:36 AM	I am starting a new character and I would like him to be VERY versatile, and in doing so want arcane, divine(druid or cleric?) and psionic. Is there a Prc that has (simmilar to Mystic Theurge) increases to manifester in addition with arcane and divine progrssion? If not how would you set the prerequisites for such a Prc? The requirements for double progression classes are already harsh. Ignoring the huge pre-requisites for the Fochlucean Lyricist, the Mystic theurge requires 3 levels in 2 classes (or possibly 4 levels if you use sorcerer/favored soul) as does the cerebromancer. Arcane Hierophant requires 3 plus 4 levels. In all cases this hurts overall casting drastically. Trying to make a triple progression class would require similar requirements to avoid it being over balanced; something like 2nd level spells/manifestations would be a minimum but that would have you between level 9 and 11 with second level powers! :eek: My advice is to pick 2 and go with them . . . Cerebromancer seems the strongest to me . . .
Force 12-03-05, 08:44 AM	Yes, I was thinking of having it require 2nd lvl from each, (starts at 10-11 if sorc). In the end, if I did it like this + some knowledge and all.. I would have 7th lvl spells in the 3 classes by 20th. It seems a good tradeoff for the versability...
Votan 12-03-05, 09:22 AM	Yes, I was thinking of having it require 2nd lvl from each, (starts at 10-11 if sorc). In the end, if I did it like this + some knowledge and all.. I would have 7th lvl spells in the 3 classes by 20th. It seems a good tradeoff for the versability... I dunno; if we went with the 2nd level powers/spells in 3 classes the most optimized entry would be: Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Psion 3 (unless you wnet both sorcerer and wilder) That is a 9th level character casting 2nd level spells. So you have: BAB +3 :eek: Saves F/R/W: +5/+3/+9 Base Hitpoints (starting with cleric): 32 2 spellcasting attributes (so without high point buy it's hard to get other stats high). With the elite array you would have: Str 10 Dex 12 Con 13 Int 15 Wis 14 Cha 8 (notice that a wizard ends up with better dex or con and that helps with survivablity) Feats are a mess. Unless you pick spells with extreme care you will have to burn 2 of 8 feats (assuming human) on practiced caster. A ninth level wizard is casting 5th level spells (like teleport, dominate person and baleful polymorph) while you are casting scorching ray (with +3 BAB so you'll actually miss), spiritual weapon and energy missile for 3d6 damage (if you have the right type of psion). A ninth level mystic theurge is casting as a 6th level caster and so will ahve a decent array of 3rd level spells and one level later is casting 4th level spells while you remain with 2nd. 7th level spells kicks in at 19th or 20th level and that assumes that triple progression all the way through is okay. It's possible that a DM could stagger triple progression (say only 2 classes progression at levels 1, 4, 7 and 10) which would pretty much kill off this class. The class would (based on other examples) have d4 hit points, one good save (almost certainly will) and poor BAB so the bad entrance numbers wouldn't really change later on. If you want flexibility in spells, this might be a good way to go at very high levels but consider some options with high degrees of flexibility that play better from levels 1 to 20: Bard 1/Barbarian 2/Bard 2 to 8/Sublime Chord 1+ (nice combination of tough, skills and spells) Sorcerer 4/Wilder 4/Cerebromancer 10/Archmage 2 (ultimate spontaneous caster and makes best core use of the wild surge ability by getting out early as cost to surge scales based on wilder level) Druid 6/Wizard 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Druid 7 (wildshape, arcane and divien spells, hybrid familar animal companion -- pretty nice overall combination and is very flexible). Barbarian (or Fighter or Ranger) 1/Sorcerer 4/Eldritch Knight 4/Divine Crusader 2/Mystic Theurge 9 All of these would be flexible and play better in the mid-game.
BadCatMan 12-03-05, 09:28 AM	I don't think it would work - the only way to get caster/manifester levels in one would be to lose caster/manifester levels in the others. Anyway, a base of Wizard / Psion / Archivist would have the least problems, IMO. Intelligence would be the casting stat for all.
Seeker of Undeath 12-03-05, 10:05 AM	The idea's nice, but it's too unfocused to accomplish anything. As pointed out you'll be rediculously behind the curve on power level. You'll have a lot of options, but none of them will be wonderful. The idea just spreads itself too thin. As pointed out you're going to want to require second level spells/powers in all. At a minimum that's giving up six caster levels before even hopping into the PrC you'd be making. Even Practiced Spellcaster won't help you sufficiently. Lots of options? Sure. Sadly almost all of them will be inadequate. Generally the jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none doesn't get really far in D&D unless there are some self-imposed limits. I could take a level of almost every PHB class, but I wouldn't be very good at anything in particular except maybe for my saves. IF your DM were having you play a gestalt game and was foolish (imo) enough to allow you to continue using dual progression classes, I'd recommend doing something like a Wizard5/Psion5/Cerebromancer10//Archivist20. Aside from that it' just doesn't seem feasible.
DM_Dracophile 12-03-05, 10:50 AM	Or, if you're not convinced it's broken, the Erudite makes a nice companion to both the Wizard and Archivist. The quintessential seeker of lore...whether Arcane, Psionic, or Divine. Neat to play...but prolly sucks until very high lvls
Seerow 12-03-05, 11:15 AM	There was a build on the CharOp board that got 9th level spells/powers in all 3 classes. It involved a somewhat questionable technique of leveling down though... so it might be better to just stick with two.
Seeker of Undeath 12-03-05, 11:36 AM	I vaguely remember that thread. I'd also agree that the premise was nice on paper, but like Pun-Pun it's harder to get past a DM or party. Conventionally speaking, a triple threat of this sort is not a great idea. I suppose you could make a nice Theurge, use a Thought Bottle, burn all your XP on Wishes (and/or Enervate yourself and purposefully fail the Fort saves), level back up as something else. Thereafter use the bottle to get your knowledge back. Once again this is unlikely in the extreme to ever happen in play, but it's a thought. It's also a reason I forbid the bottles (the infinite wish mechanic).
Force 12-03-05, 06:21 PM	Well, we're playing with fractionnal bab and saves (from UA) so the bab won't be so bad, and I was thinking like BadCatMan said of using wiz/archivist/psion in the build, or sorc/favored soul/wilder (I think these all cast from cha?) but if I do this it will be higher till I can get in the class so I think I'm gonna stick to the first. As for the Stregth of the caracter, the group need a jack-of-all-trade that can be a utility man. I will explore the bard idea, but higher lvl the way I was thinking of making it would be more powerful (7th in 3 classes). As all of you people think it's actually UNDERPOWERED, I'm pretty sure I'll get the go-ahead to take it. Anyone got a good name for it? :)
caeruleus 12-03-05, 06:37 PM	Ever thought of making your own base class? It would be quite a trick to keep it balanced, though.
Seeker of Undeath 12-03-05, 07:26 PM	Well, we're playing with fractionnal bab and saves (from UA) so the bab won't be so bad, and I was thinking like BadCatMan said of using wiz/archivist/psion in the build, or sorc/favored soul/wilder (I think these all cast from cha?) but if I do this it will be higher till I can get in the class so I think I'm gonna stick to the first. As for the Stregth of the caracter, the group need a jack-of-all-trade that can be a utility man. I will explore the bard idea, but higher lvl the way I was thinking of making it would be more powerful (7th in 3 classes). As all of you people think it's actually UNDERPOWERED, I'm pretty sure I'll get the go-ahead to take it. Anyone got a good name for it? :)Yes, the idea of casting/manifesting 7th-level spells/powers from all those lists is a very wonderful idea. The issue everyone has is the part where you get there. On the way up you'll be miserable. If you're starting out around 15th level or better, I imagine you'll be fairly happy. The issue most have is that it's not very effective in the early to mid game, but it's got potential in the late game. Of course you're also severely delaying any chance at epic casting/manifesting, but that's not likely to bother you. Personally I think you should just play an artificer and call it a day.
StevenO 12-03-05, 10:34 PM	A PrC that advances all three this would probably look a lot like the Mystic Theurge with a few exceptions. Prerequisites such that 3+ levels in each category is needed HD=1d4, Good Save=None (or Will if feeling generous), BAB=no improvement, Skill=2 per level, Special= +1 Increase in Arcane & Divine spellcasting level and manifester Level for each PrC level Using the TM as a base you don't have much to give up to add manifester levels and entry requirements should put the character well behind others in terms of power. Generally this isn't a good idea.
Leress 12-03-05, 10:41 PM	You can go to rpgnow.com and download the free issue of Poor Gamer's Almanac (September 2005) it has a prestige class called the Renaissance Magus that use arcane and divine spells and psionics. I think i maybe what you are looking for.
HalfMunchkin 12-03-05, 10:58 PM	There was a build on the CharOp board that got 9th level spells/powers in all 3 classes. It involved a somewhat questionable technique of leveling down though... so it might be better to just stick with two. With the search the way it is, does anybody know the title of the thread so I can find it easier?
savant_warlord13 12-03-05, 11:19 PM	you guys need to head over to Eberron and check out the precocious apprentice feat
Force 12-04-05, 02:30 AM	Ebberon? It's in Complete Arcane.. And yes it could help 'lessen' the hurt, what about a human with the apprentice rule (can't find it in 3.5 DMG, is it gone?) and both first lvl feats these for archivist and wizard? It would look much better at mid level with this.
Tempest Stormwind 12-04-05, 05:07 AM	By the way, Precocious Apprentice won't work with arcane/divine theurges. When you gain your second-level spells from the divine half, PA stops giving you your 2nd level arcane spells. Carefully read the feat again. (This is not an issue with the cerebremancer, so Wiz 1 / Erudite 3 / Cerebremancer 2 can get you the 2nd-level spells needed to survive the loss of PA.) With the search the way it is, does anybody know the title of the thread so I can find it easier? It's complicated, involves fast-progression PrCs like Ur-Priest instead of actual base class levels, and it completely sucks through the mid levels. If you DO get it working, then you're lucky and backed up by your team. (The above build should aim for qualifying for Ur-Priest or Blighter if possible. Sublime Chord or Nar Demonbinder are usual fast-progression arcane fillouts. There's also a Dragon PrC somewhere -- I forget where -- called the Mind Mage, which lets you do some sick, sick, sick stuff with your caster/manifester levels, and is generally considered superior in every way to the Cerebremancer (except in terms of prerequisites).)
gbnogkfs 12-04-05, 07:18 AM	By the way, Precocious Apprentice won't work with arcane/divine theurges. When you gain your second-level spells from the divine half, PA stops giving you your 2nd level arcane spells. Carefully read the feat again. (This is not an issue with the cerebremancer, so Wiz 1 / Erudite 3 / Cerebremancer 2 can get you the 2nd-level spells needed to survive the loss of PA.) in fact, if you really read that feat well, it is never said the extra spell you get is "arcane"... :rolleyes:
runestar 12-04-05, 07:47 AM	I can just imagine the epic progression if wotc ever released such a prc - +1 to each spellcasting lv every 3 lvs..... :rolleyes:
Force 12-04-05, 07:49 AM	About that Mind Mage, anyone got anything more specific on it? Like what it can do and where exactly it is?
Always-Late 12-04-05, 02:43 PM	I'm pretty sure that thought-bottle mess was the Word (look up "The Wish and the Word.") It also had a caster level of 155.
Esponer 12-04-05, 04:23 PM	I am starting a new character and I would like him to be VERY versatile, and in doing so want arcane, divine(druid or cleric?) and psionic. Is there a Prc that has (simmilar to Mystic Theurge) increases to manifester in addition with arcane and divine progrssion? If not how would you set the prerequisites for such a Prc? The idea isn't going to work very well by any normal means. Your best bet is probably the Chameleon from Complete Adventurer. If you don't have the book, Google for the Chameleon - I don't have the link, but it's on the WotC website somewhere. Still not perfect, as you need to introduce your own psionic element to the Chameleon (which I don't think it should include for flavour reasons, but it's much more likely to be passed by your DM than any of the level-losing breaks which get you to the same place).
HalfMunchkin 12-04-05, 04:35 PM	Here is a PrC I have been working for a while that you may want to use, if you thinkm it is balanced. Here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7916551#post7916551)
Maraxus 12-04-05, 05:25 PM	I would say take a mystic theuge and make it Phrenic.
Force 12-04-05, 05:48 PM	I would say take a mystic theuge and make it Phrenic. What's Phrenic, I never heard of that? About Mind mage, anyone knows the Dragon mag no#?
The Vorpal Tribble 12-04-05, 05:54 PM	What's Phrenic, I never heard of that? Its a template from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. However, I really don't encourage players to have template myself, but as you are going for an arcane/divine/psi, you'd probably not be particularly worried about that kind of thing. Heres a link to it... (http://srd.pbemnexus.com/psionicMonsters.html#phenric-creature)
a_psh 12-04-05, 07:27 PM	OP, you're operating from an incorrect basis, which is that a mixture of all three is fundamentally the most versatile caster. Given how much overlap there is between divine, arcane, and psionic powers, this isn't really the case. For example, what big types of abilities does a psion specifically have that a wizard or cleric doesn't? A wizard/cleric or psion/cleric can heal and nuke and buff and has all sorts of utility powers (the wizard more so than the psion, in many cases). What specifically does adding the third class here help?
gbnogkfs 12-05-05, 12:40 AM	OP, you're operating from an incorrect basis, which is that a mixture of all three is fundamentally the most versatile caster. Given how much overlap there is between divine, arcane, and psionic powers, this isn't really the case. For example, what big types of abilities does a psion specifically have that a wizard or cleric doesn't? A wizard/cleric or psion/cleric can heal and nuke and buff and has all sorts of utility powers (the wizard more so than the psion, in many cases). What specifically does adding the third class here help? Roleplay and fun, I suppose... :D
Force 12-05-05, 12:46 AM	Well, it has a lot more spells(powers)/day, and some powers(or spells) don't have any equivalent in the other classes.. As for the build I'm looking to make right now : Human Psion/Archvist (apprentice rule) with both feats Precopious apprentice (I cleared it with my DM for the psion equivalent), So: 1 Wiz 2 Psion 3 Archvist 4 Cerebromancer or MT 5 Cerebromancer or MT (Psychic Reformation one of the Precopious feat for the archivist) 6-15 Master of Spells and Mind? 16-20+ Cerebro-MT or mind mage (if it's good) Critiques or ideas on how to improve on this? Edit : Oh, and yes having fun with having ALL(or almost) the spells and powers that exists :)
a_psh 12-05-05, 01:37 AM	Roleplay and fun, I suppose... :DI can dig that. Stated goal was versatility, though, and I'm just making sure that we're not missing the obvious (that there's so much overlap that any two can fill in for all three pretty well in almost any situation) before chugging ahead. ;)
Khan the Destroyer 12-05-05, 02:09 AM	I'll try to get the build so that it isn't absolutely atrocious for you at lower levels. But bear in mind I do not know what books you have available to you and any other restrictions on your game. Wizard 1 (Precosious Apprentice, Spell Focus: Evil) Psion 1 Psion 2 Psion 3 (Iron Will) Cerebremancer 1 Cerebremancer 2 Cerebremancer 3 Mindbender 1 (Psionic Version) Ur-Priest 1 Ur-Priest 2 Trinity Class 1-10 This nets you: Wizard- Caster level 14, 7th level spells. Psion- Manifester level 17, 9th level powers. Ur-Priest- Caster level 12, 9th level spells. So, at level 20 you would have 9th level powers and 9th level divine spells, as well as 7th level arcane spells. Until then, you aren't as bas as you could be. Levels 2-8 you are pretty much a standard psion (minus 1 level due to the wizard level). At levels 9 and 10 you are on par with a regular Theurge character. After that, you are still a little behind (like any Theurge), but you are increasing your power in all 3 classes. Hope this helps, though I don't know what you have access to.
Force 12-05-05, 02:52 AM	I have access to pretty much all WotC books 3.5, Dragons mag are on case-by-case. We are also using UA fractionnal BAB and saves and maybe I can use 1 flaw.. As For your build, I like it, but could it not be better using the apprentice rule(from 3.0 as I can't find it in 3.5 DMG) to level up 2 class with 2nd lvl spells/powers and then enter MT or Cerebro 2 lvl sooner? Wiz/Psion lvl 0 precosious apprentice x2 1 Wiz 2 psi 3 Cerebromancer Or something in these lines?
gbnogkfs 12-05-05, 02:57 AM	I have access to pretty much all WotC books 3.5, Dragons mag are on case-by-case. As For your build, I like it, but could it not be better using the apprentice rule(from 3.0 as I can't find it in 3.5 DMG) maybe it could; the problem is apprentice rules are not 3.5 :D (you cannot find them because they are not there. gooood move however.)
Force 12-05-05, 03:02 AM	I don't know how to get to Ur-Priest faster with this tho (because of the +3 fort save) Any idea? Edit :Nm I now know why the mindbender was there. Also, when you say psionic version, do you just mean that it adds +1 manifester instead of arcane, or is there an other somewhere?
Khan the Destroyer 12-05-05, 04:15 AM	Yes. In the Adaptation section for the Mindbender prestige class it explains how to use it as a psionic prestige class instead of arcane.