Arcane Druid? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Druid? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cerberuspuppy
01-21-06, 12:28 PM I have been toying with an idea for a little while now, and I thought I'd post it here and try to develop it into something useful. The simplest way to describe it is as a "cross between Druid and Sorcerer", but I think the finished product will probably look more like the Bard class, at least in the numbers.

For starters, a Druid that just swaps out her own list for the Wizard/Sorcerer list would be clearly overpowered. Arcane spells are generally more powerful, versatile, useful, and proactive than divine spells. The difference is so great that it has to be balanced out by the Druid's total superiority in every other area.

So, other things have to change. The most obvious targets are the things that arcane casters just don't get- like armor and medium BAB, and probably that good Fort save too. I'd like to have a d6 hit die, though.

The next place I'd look is the list of special abilities. Let's nix everything but Wild Shape, since those abilities are all wilderness-themed anyway. Later we might plug in other specials that fit the new theme.

Next, let's look at Wild Shape and how to translate it into one of the core abilities of the new class. What I have in mind is more about utility than combat. I don't picture members of this class so much turning into bears and charging into melee as turning into alley cats and sneaking about, or turning into ravens to fly into a 3rd story window.

So, how about this- their "Polymorph Self" ability works just like Wild Shape, with the same progression of uses per day, but they can only turn into a creature that they could summon as a familiar- including options offered by the Improved Familiar feat and higher caster levels. They're still limited by hit dice, and the size of the creature.

They need to be able to get Tiny forms at 5th level, and some of the Medium and Large forms opened up by Improved Familiar might be a little too good too soon, so how about this: Tiny and Small at 5th, Medium at 8th, and Large at 11th.
cerberuspuppy
01-21-06, 12:38 PM So, here's what I've got so far:

BAB: Poor (Wizard, Sorcerer, etc)
Fort and Ref saves: Poor
Will save: Good
no armor, simple weapons only
Hit Die: d6
Skill Points: 4

Special:
Summon Familiar
"Polymorph Self"-
Starting at 5th level, can polymorph self into any animal the character could select as a familiar. Can choose Tiny or Small forms. Usable 2/day at 6th, 3/day at 7th, 4/day at 10th, 5/day at 14th, 6/day at 18th. Gain Medium forms at 8th level and Large at 11th. Elemental form at 16th, 18th & 20th.
Elbethamore
01-21-06, 01:02 PM If you're giving them access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list, then that's all they should get. It's all a sorcerer gets.

d4 hit dice, no wildshape, poor BAB. Anything better makes the sorcerer obsolete.
Votan
01-21-06, 01:36 PM If you're giving them access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list, then that's all they should get. It's all a sorcerer gets.

d4 hit dice, no wildshape, poor BAB. Anything better makes the sorcerer obsolete.

Here is waht I'd suggest:

Remove the spontaneous ability to Summon Nature's Ally

Allow spontaneous conversion of Druid Spells to arcane spells as follows:

Sacrifice one slot of equal or greater level to know the spell (Move action). If spell is not used by beginning of next round it is lost.

Sacrifice one slot of at least one level higher to power the spell (standard action + any additional casting time for the arcane spell+ any additional time for metamagic application).

Spontaneopus conversion does not work witht he Natural Spell Feat.

It'd give the druid a reason not to be always wildshaped. The sorcerer would still beat the druid by volume of spells (much higher), level of spells (always equal or higher) and the ability to apply metamagic on these spells in a single round.

Pretty cool, actually . . .
cerberuspuppy
01-21-06, 01:51 PM From there, I can see three things left- spells, skills, and specials.

Let's start with the easy part- skills. I like 4 points, and for class skills, how about: Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Knowledge (Arcana), Profession, and Spellcraft. That's pretty much the same list as the Sorcerer, but the extra points allow them to cc for things like Listen and Spot.

Any more specials can wait and be applied as finishing touches.

The hard part is spells. I like the idea of spontaneous casting for this class, but if we just plug the Sorcerer's spell ability into this class, we wind up with something flat out superior to the Sorcerer. I do see this class as being versatile and adaptable, though.

The three ways I can see to deal with this are 1) slow down the spell progression to match the Bard, 2) change the spell list, or 3) both.

Let's start with the spell list. I don't see these guys running around throwing fireballs, I picture something a little more subtle. The easiest way would be to cut them off from the school of Evocation, but that's a bit much.

I think I'll try to write a list from scratch, with a focus on utility, subtlety, stealth, and the occasional damage. I'll go 1st-6th, and worry about the rest if we decide on full progression.

0- Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Daze, Light, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation

1st- Endure Elements, Grease, Mage Armor, Summon Monster 1, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Identify, Charm Person, Sleep, Magic Missle, Tenser's Floating Disk, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Cause Fear, Ray of Enfeeblement, Animate Rope, Feather Fall, Jump

2nd- Resist Energy, Fog Cloud, SM2, Summon Swarm, Web, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object, Darkness, Gust of Wind, Blur, Hypnotic Pattern, Invisibility, Minor Image, Misdirection, Blindness/Deafness, Alter Self, Darkvision, Knock, Rope Trick, all buffs (Bull's Str, etc)

3rd- Dispel Magic, Nondetection, Phantom Steed, SM3, Tongues, Deep Slumber, Hold Person, Suggestion, Lightning Bolt, Illusory Script, Major Image, Vampiric Touch, Fly, Gaseous Form, Haste, Keen Edge, Water Breathing

4th- Dimension Door, Evard's Black Tentacles, SM4, Detect Scrying, Locate Creature, Scrying, Charm Monster, Confusion, Lesser Geas, Greater Invisibility, Phantasmal Killer, Shadow Conjuration, Bestow Curse, Contagion, Polymorph

5th- MK's Faithful Hound, SM5, Teleport, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Cone of Cold, Dream, Seeming, Shadow Evocation, Baleful Polymorph, Telekinesis, Permanency

6th- Antimagic Field, Greater Dispel Magic, SM6, Geas/Quest, Mass Suggestion, Contingency, Shadow Walk, Disintegrate, Stone to Flesh, (all Mass buffs)
cerberuspuppy
01-21-06, 02:01 PM Here is waht I'd suggest:

Remove the spontaneous ability to Summon Nature's Ally

Allow spontaneous conversion of Druid Spells to arcane spells as follows:

Sacrifice one slot of equal or greater level to know the spell (Move action). If spell is not used by beginning of next round it is lost.

Sacrifice one slot of at least one level higher to power the spell (standard action + any additional casting time for the arcane spell+ any additional time for metamagic application).

Spontaneopus conversion does not work witht he Natural Spell Feat.

It'd give the druid a reason not to be always wildshaped. The sorcerer would still beat the druid by volume of spells (much higher), level of spells (always equal or higher) and the ability to apply metamagic on these spells in a single round.

Pretty cool, actually . . .

I should have known my choice of words was problematic. I'm not talking about giving Druids arcane spells, I'm talking about building a new class that looks somewhat similar.

These are the key features of what I have in mind:

1) A Polymorph Self ability similar to Wild Shape, but more limited. Now that I think about it, I'd rather there not be any way to cast spells while in this "familiar form".

2) Arcane spells, but maybe with fewer explosions.

3) Some general versatility even beyond spells- I'd rather see 4 skill points and d6 hp.

Spontaneous casting would be nice, and there's a good chance these guys will have to live with the Bard's spell progression, but the Sorcerer progression might still be a possibility depending on how limited the spell list is.
cerberuspuppy
01-21-06, 11:58 PM If you're giving them access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list, then that's all they should get. It's all a sorcerer gets.

d4 hit dice, no wildshape, poor BAB. Anything better makes the sorcerer obsolete.

The point is not to make the Sorcerer obsolete, but the Sorcerer is a little below par, so it's okay if this class winds up a little stronger in some ways.

What you're suggesting is the Sorcerer.

One way or another, this class will not have the full Wizard/Sorcerer list, at least not at the Sorcerer progression. The W/S list up to 6th level spells with the Bard progression is a possibility I suppose.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cerberuspuppy 01-21-06, 12:28 PM	I have been toying with an idea for a little while now, and I thought I'd post it here and try to develop it into something useful. The simplest way to describe it is as a "cross between Druid and Sorcerer", but I think the finished product will probably look more like the Bard class, at least in the numbers. For starters, a Druid that just swaps out her own list for the Wizard/Sorcerer list would be clearly overpowered. Arcane spells are generally more powerful, versatile, useful, and proactive than divine spells. The difference is so great that it has to be balanced out by the Druid's total superiority in every other area. So, other things have to change. The most obvious targets are the things that arcane casters just don't get- like armor and medium BAB, and probably that good Fort save too. I'd like to have a d6 hit die, though. The next place I'd look is the list of special abilities. Let's nix everything but Wild Shape, since those abilities are all wilderness-themed anyway. Later we might plug in other specials that fit the new theme. Next, let's look at Wild Shape and how to translate it into one of the core abilities of the new class. What I have in mind is more about utility than combat. I don't picture members of this class so much turning into bears and charging into melee as turning into alley cats and sneaking about, or turning into ravens to fly into a 3rd story window. So, how about this- their "Polymorph Self" ability works just like Wild Shape, with the same progression of uses per day, but they can only turn into a creature that they could summon as a familiar- including options offered by the Improved Familiar feat and higher caster levels. They're still limited by hit dice, and the size of the creature. They need to be able to get Tiny forms at 5th level, and some of the Medium and Large forms opened up by Improved Familiar might be a little too good too soon, so how about this: Tiny and Small at 5th, Medium at 8th, and Large at 11th.
cerberuspuppy 01-21-06, 12:38 PM	So, here's what I've got so far: BAB: Poor (Wizard, Sorcerer, etc) Fort and Ref saves: Poor Will save: Good no armor, simple weapons only Hit Die: d6 Skill Points: 4 Special: Summon Familiar "Polymorph Self"- Starting at 5th level, can polymorph self into any animal the character could select as a familiar. Can choose Tiny or Small forms. Usable 2/day at 6th, 3/day at 7th, 4/day at 10th, 5/day at 14th, 6/day at 18th. Gain Medium forms at 8th level and Large at 11th. Elemental form at 16th, 18th & 20th.
Elbethamore 01-21-06, 01:02 PM	If you're giving them access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list, then that's all they should get. It's all a sorcerer gets. d4 hit dice, no wildshape, poor BAB. Anything better makes the sorcerer obsolete.
Votan 01-21-06, 01:36 PM	If you're giving them access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list, then that's all they should get. It's all a sorcerer gets. d4 hit dice, no wildshape, poor BAB. Anything better makes the sorcerer obsolete. Here is waht I'd suggest: Remove the spontaneous ability to Summon Nature's Ally Allow spontaneous conversion of Druid Spells to arcane spells as follows: Sacrifice one slot of equal or greater level to know the spell (Move action). If spell is not used by beginning of next round it is lost. Sacrifice one slot of at least one level higher to power the spell (standard action + any additional casting time for the arcane spell+ any additional time for metamagic application). Spontaneopus conversion does not work witht he Natural Spell Feat. It'd give the druid a reason not to be always wildshaped. The sorcerer would still beat the druid by volume of spells (much higher), level of spells (always equal or higher) and the ability to apply metamagic on these spells in a single round. Pretty cool, actually . . .
cerberuspuppy 01-21-06, 01:51 PM	From there, I can see three things left- spells, skills, and specials. Let's start with the easy part- skills. I like 4 points, and for class skills, how about: Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Knowledge (Arcana), Profession, and Spellcraft. That's pretty much the same list as the Sorcerer, but the extra points allow them to cc for things like Listen and Spot. Any more specials can wait and be applied as finishing touches. The hard part is spells. I like the idea of spontaneous casting for this class, but if we just plug the Sorcerer's spell ability into this class, we wind up with something flat out superior to the Sorcerer. I do see this class as being versatile and adaptable, though. The three ways I can see to deal with this are 1) slow down the spell progression to match the Bard, 2) change the spell list, or 3) both. Let's start with the spell list. I don't see these guys running around throwing fireballs, I picture something a little more subtle. The easiest way would be to cut them off from the school of Evocation, but that's a bit much. I think I'll try to write a list from scratch, with a focus on utility, subtlety, stealth, and the occasional damage. I'll go 1st-6th, and worry about the rest if we decide on full progression. 0- Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Daze, Light, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation 1st- Endure Elements, Grease, Mage Armor, Summon Monster 1, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Identify, Charm Person, Sleep, Magic Missle, Tenser's Floating Disk, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Cause Fear, Ray of Enfeeblement, Animate Rope, Feather Fall, Jump 2nd- Resist Energy, Fog Cloud, SM2, Summon Swarm, Web, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object, Darkness, Gust of Wind, Blur, Hypnotic Pattern, Invisibility, Minor Image, Misdirection, Blindness/Deafness, Alter Self, Darkvision, Knock, Rope Trick, all buffs (Bull's Str, etc) 3rd- Dispel Magic, Nondetection, Phantom Steed, SM3, Tongues, Deep Slumber, Hold Person, Suggestion, Lightning Bolt, Illusory Script, Major Image, Vampiric Touch, Fly, Gaseous Form, Haste, Keen Edge, Water Breathing 4th- Dimension Door, Evard's Black Tentacles, SM4, Detect Scrying, Locate Creature, Scrying, Charm Monster, Confusion, Lesser Geas, Greater Invisibility, Phantasmal Killer, Shadow Conjuration, Bestow Curse, Contagion, Polymorph 5th- MK's Faithful Hound, SM5, Teleport, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Cone of Cold, Dream, Seeming, Shadow Evocation, Baleful Polymorph, Telekinesis, Permanency 6th- Antimagic Field, Greater Dispel Magic, SM6, Geas/Quest, Mass Suggestion, Contingency, Shadow Walk, Disintegrate, Stone to Flesh, (all Mass buffs)
cerberuspuppy 01-21-06, 02:01 PM	Here is waht I'd suggest: Remove the spontaneous ability to Summon Nature's Ally Allow spontaneous conversion of Druid Spells to arcane spells as follows: Sacrifice one slot of equal or greater level to know the spell (Move action). If spell is not used by beginning of next round it is lost. Sacrifice one slot of at least one level higher to power the spell (standard action + any additional casting time for the arcane spell+ any additional time for metamagic application). Spontaneopus conversion does not work witht he Natural Spell Feat. It'd give the druid a reason not to be always wildshaped. The sorcerer would still beat the druid by volume of spells (much higher), level of spells (always equal or higher) and the ability to apply metamagic on these spells in a single round. Pretty cool, actually . . . I should have known my choice of words was problematic. I'm not talking about giving Druids arcane spells, I'm talking about building a new class that looks somewhat similar. These are the key features of what I have in mind: 1) A Polymorph Self ability similar to Wild Shape, but more limited. Now that I think about it, I'd rather there not be any way to cast spells while in this "familiar form". 2) Arcane spells, but maybe with fewer explosions. 3) Some general versatility even beyond spells- I'd rather see 4 skill points and d6 hp. Spontaneous casting would be nice, and there's a good chance these guys will have to live with the Bard's spell progression, but the Sorcerer progression might still be a possibility depending on how limited the spell list is.
cerberuspuppy 01-21-06, 11:58 PM	If you're giving them access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list, then that's all they should get. It's all a sorcerer gets. d4 hit dice, no wildshape, poor BAB. Anything better makes the sorcerer obsolete. The point is not to make the Sorcerer obsolete, but the Sorcerer is a little below par, so it's okay if this class winds up a little stronger in some ways. What you're suggesting is the Sorcerer. One way or another, this class will not have the full Wizard/Sorcerer list, at least not at the Sorcerer progression. The W/S list up to 6th level spells with the Bard progression is a possibility I suppose.