Arcane Hiero and Wildshape? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Hiero and Wildshape? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Marshall
06-04-05, 04:52 AM Heres a question...Every time I read the description of wildshape under the ArcHie I come away with a different interpretation. The basic question is, Does a DRD4/WIZ3/AH1 have the ability to wildshape?

The first line of the ability description reads as follows : If you do not already possess the ability, you gain no new ability to wildshape.
Looks pretty clear to me, If you cant already wildshape than no matter how many AH levels you tack on, you'll never gain the ability. Right?

Unfortunately, there then follows this line : However, you add your Arcane Hiero level to your Druid level and gain the wildshape ability of a druid of the resulting level. So since the example above is a DRD4 + AH1 he has the wildshape of a DRD5? Or does he?

To make matters worse, there is an example of a WIZ3/DRD3/AH4 that wildshapes as a Druid 7. Looks like a pretty clear example, right?

WRONG. WIZ3/DRD3 doesnt have the BAB4+ to qualify for AH. So, if thats wrong, is the rest of the example wrong also?

Then there is the final line of the ability description that states that if you are not a Druid than you gain no ability to wildshape. Which can be read in two ways AND leaves out other classes that may grant wildshape(for no apparent reason).

I'm so confused. :confused:
I'm actually leaning towards the "Have to have it to advance it" side as an additional balance point for the class. But I want some other opinions, official or not....
Todd
06-04-05, 08:42 AM The thing is that you can become an AH using either Ranger or Druid to meet the divine pre-reqs. If you use Druid then AH adds to wildshape even if you entered as a druid 3. If you use Ranger then no ... unless you are using the non-core Wildshape Ranger variant.

Yes the example has an error, but in general you should go by the text not the examlples.
Marshall
06-04-05, 01:51 PM The thing is that you can become an AH using either Ranger or Druid to meet the divine pre-reqs. If you use Druid then AH adds to wildshape even if you entered as a druid 3. If you use Ranger then no ... unless you are using the non-core Wildshape Ranger variant.

Yes the example has an error, but in general you should go by the text not the examples.

But with that error, the example fails to make the text clear.

Frex, its equally correct to say that, by the text, a WIZ3/DRD4/AH4 wildshapes as a DRD8(DRD4 + AH4) or has no wildshape ability at all(DRD4 doesnt get WS so there is nothing for AH to stack with).

Which is it supposed to be?
Merryadocc
06-04-05, 02:05 PM Last time I read the AH it was clear to me that you add your druid levels to your AH levels to determine your druid level for Wild Shape, even if you couldn't wild shape as a druid before entering the prestige class.
RPGhaulsass
06-04-05, 02:19 PM Seems like they overlooked the BAB requirement, period.

It's like with monk unarmed damage, AC and speed. If you didn't have the +1 bonus to AC because you were only a level 2 Monk when you multiclassed, then 5-6 levels of XXX PRC XXX stacks with the Monk levels for determining the AC. You do not get that AC bonus UNLESS you've already got a monk level or two.

So unless you had a class which grants the Wild Shape class ability BEFORE you went into Arcane Hierophant, you can't GET that ability, but if you had a class with that ability (Druid1, for example), the AH levels stacks with Druid levels to determine Wild Shape. Simple as that.

Simply put: The levels _stack_ with Druid, but they do not _grant_ Wild Shape. A fighter4/Wizard4/AH8 for example, would not get Wild Shape as an 8th level Druid, but a Druid5/Monk4/AH3 would.
Drachasor
06-04-05, 03:03 PM All the other examples in the book have the correct level requirements met...it's just that one that is off.

-Drachasor
Marshall
06-04-05, 03:05 PM Seems like they overlooked the BAB requirement, period.

It's like with monk unarmed damage, AC and speed. If you didn't have the +1 bonus to AC because you were only a level 2 Monk when you multiclassed, then 5-6 levels of XXX PRC XXX stacks with the Monk levels for determining the AC. You do not get that AC bonus UNLESS you've already got a monk level or two.

So unless you had a class which grants the Wild Shape class ability BEFORE you went into Arcane Hierophant, you can't GET that ability, but if you had a class with that ability (Druid1, for example), the AH levels stacks with Druid levels to determine Wild Shape. Simple as that.

Exactly, but I wouldnt call it simple.

Simply put: The levels _stack_ with Druid, but they do not _grant_ Wild Shape. A fighter4/Wizard4/AH8 for example, would not get Wild Shape as an 8th level Druid, but a Druid5/Monk4/AH3 would.

The question is, Would a WIZ3/DRD4/AH4 have the wildshape ability?
A DRD4 DOES NOT have any ability to wildshape, so do the AH levels grant it?
Drachasor
06-04-05, 03:07 PM The question is, Would a WIZ3/DRD4/AH4 have the wildshape ability?
A DRD4 DOES NOT have any ability to wildshape, so do the AH levels grant it?

From the examples elsewhere it is pretty clear they mean that if an Arcane Heirophant has a class that grants wildshape at some point, then AH levels stack with that class for determining your wildshape ability.

-Drachasor
Merryadocc
06-04-05, 03:12 PM The question is, Would a WIZ3/DRD4/AH4 have the wildshape ability?
A DRD4 DOES NOT have any ability to wildshape, so do the AH levels grant it?
Yes
Todd
06-04-05, 07:55 PM The question is, Would a WIZ3/DRD4/AH4 have the wildshape ability?
A DRD4 DOES NOT have any ability to wildshape, so do the AH levels grant it?

Yes.

As posted above it's the fact that he used Druid instead of Ranger or some other divine class to enter AH that matters for this.
RPGhaulsass
06-05-05, 08:42 AM Exactly, but I wouldnt call it simple.

The question is, Would a WIZ3/DRD4/AH4 have the wildshape ability?
A DRD4 DOES NOT have any ability to wildshape, so do the AH levels grant it?

What I said was that the levels STACK with Druid levels. So someone with Druid levels who takes AH levels before gaining the Wild Shape ability would get that ability from AH levels, as they STACK with Druid levels. AH levels alone doesn't grant Wild Shape, but Druid and AH levels combined grants wild shape. Thus an AH10 wouldn't get Wild Shape, and neither would a Monk5/AH10,k but a Druid4/AH6 would, because the levels STACK for Wild Shape.
RogerWilco
06-05-05, 01:35 PM I had a few questions I asked Customer service that are partially related:

------------------------------------------------------------------
Discussion Thread
Response (Sam S.) 03/29/2005 03:37 PM
Thank you for contacting us,

The Druid3/Wiz4/ArcHei2 does qualify for Master of Many Forms.

The temporary Alertness feat does not let you qualify for MoMF.

The MoMF does stack with previous wildshape abilities for duration and Hit Dice.

Keep in mind that druid levels do not stack with MoMF for wildshape unless you have enough druid levels to get the wildshape ability (level 5).

Good Gaming!

To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

Sam S.

Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST
------------------------------------------------------------
Dear customer service/ Chris,

The Arcane Hierophant can be found on page 108-113 of the "Races of the Wild" Dungeons and Dragons gaming acessory by Skip Williams ISBN 0-7869-3438-7.

Adriaan Renting.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 28 Mar 2005 at 10:44, Wizards Customer Service wrote:
>
> Game rules question - Dungeons & Dragons/Forgotten Realms/Eberron
> Feedback
> From: Adriaan () (User ID RogerWilco on the forums/boards)
>
> I have just bought Complete Adventurer and Races of the Wild and have four
> questions pertaining to combinations of the Arcane Hierophant and Master
> of Many Forms:
>
> - Does a druid3/Wiz4/ArcaneHierophant2 with Alertness and Endurance
> qualify for the MoMF?
>
> -Actually no, since they don't have the wild shape class feature (unless
> provided by the arcane hierophant).
>
> - Would the Alertness granted by the Wizard Familiar/ ArcaneHierophant
> Companion Familiar be sufficient to qualify for MoMF?
>
> -Actually no, you'd have to devote a slot to the actual feat.
>
> - Can a Druid8/MoMF1 take the form of Large Humanoid of 9 HD, can a
> Druid15/MoMF3 take the form of a Huge Giant of 18HD? in other words: do
> maximum HD stack and the ability to change into Large/Tiny/Huge transfer
> between Druid/MoMF
>
> -To turn into a form that is only supported by the MoMF PrC, you would
> have to achieve the level where that size is available on the PrC
> advancement. For example the Druid8/MoMF1 could turn into a large
> animal, or a medium humanoid.
>
> - Messages from customer service posted on the boards seem to indicate
> that wildshape HD maximum and duration should stack between Druid and
> MoMF, does this include the levels granted by Arcane Hierophant, or is
> this invalid and do these not stack?
>
> -If you could provide a book title and page number for the arcane
> hierophant, I'd be happy to assist you further with this. Thank you for
> your patience. Good gaming!
>
> *Please quote this email in any reply.*
> **************************************** *****
> Chris
> Customer Service Department
> Wizards of the Coast
> 1-800-324-6496
> **************************************** *****

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Marshall 06-04-05, 04:52 AM	Heres a question...Every time I read the description of wildshape under the ArcHie I come away with a different interpretation. The basic question is, Does a DRD4/WIZ3/AH1 have the ability to wildshape? The first line of the ability description reads as follows : If you do not already possess the ability, you gain no new ability to wildshape. Looks pretty clear to me, If you cant already wildshape than no matter how many AH levels you tack on, you'll never gain the ability. Right? Unfortunately, there then follows this line : However, you add your Arcane Hiero level to your Druid level and gain the wildshape ability of a druid of the resulting level. So since the example above is a DRD4 + AH1 he has the wildshape of a DRD5? Or does he? To make matters worse, there is an example of a WIZ3/DRD3/AH4 that wildshapes as a Druid 7. Looks like a pretty clear example, right? WRONG. WIZ3/DRD3 doesnt have the BAB4+ to qualify for AH. So, if thats wrong, is the rest of the example wrong also? Then there is the final line of the ability description that states that if you are not a Druid than you gain no ability to wildshape. Which can be read in two ways AND leaves out other classes that may grant wildshape(for no apparent reason). I'm so confused. :confused: I'm actually leaning towards the "Have to have it to advance it" side as an additional balance point for the class. But I want some other opinions, official or not....
Todd 06-04-05, 08:42 AM	The thing is that you can become an AH using either Ranger or Druid to meet the divine pre-reqs. If you use Druid then AH adds to wildshape even if you entered as a druid 3. If you use Ranger then no ... unless you are using the non-core Wildshape Ranger variant. Yes the example has an error, but in general you should go by the text not the examlples.
Marshall 06-04-05, 01:51 PM	The thing is that you can become an AH using either Ranger or Druid to meet the divine pre-reqs. If you use Druid then AH adds to wildshape even if you entered as a druid 3. If you use Ranger then no ... unless you are using the non-core Wildshape Ranger variant. Yes the example has an error, but in general you should go by the text not the examples. But with that error, the example fails to make the text clear. Frex, its equally correct to say that, by the text, a WIZ3/DRD4/AH4 wildshapes as a DRD8(DRD4 + AH4) or has no wildshape ability at all(DRD4 doesnt get WS so there is nothing for AH to stack with). Which is it supposed to be?
Merryadocc 06-04-05, 02:05 PM	Last time I read the AH it was clear to me that you add your druid levels to your AH levels to determine your druid level for Wild Shape, even if you couldn't wild shape as a druid before entering the prestige class.
RPGhaulsass 06-04-05, 02:19 PM	Seems like they overlooked the BAB requirement, period. It's like with monk unarmed damage, AC and speed. If you didn't have the +1 bonus to AC because you were only a level 2 Monk when you multiclassed, then 5-6 levels of XXX PRC XXX stacks with the Monk levels for determining the AC. You do not get that AC bonus UNLESS you've already got a monk level or two. So unless you had a class which grants the Wild Shape class ability BEFORE you went into Arcane Hierophant, you can't GET that ability, but if you had a class with that ability (Druid1, for example), the AH levels stacks with Druid levels to determine Wild Shape. Simple as that. Simply put: The levels _stack_ with Druid, but they do not _grant_ Wild Shape. A fighter4/Wizard4/AH8 for example, would not get Wild Shape as an 8th level Druid, but a Druid5/Monk4/AH3 would.
Drachasor 06-04-05, 03:03 PM	All the other examples in the book have the correct level requirements met...it's just that one that is off. -Drachasor
Marshall 06-04-05, 03:05 PM	Seems like they overlooked the BAB requirement, period. It's like with monk unarmed damage, AC and speed. If you didn't have the +1 bonus to AC because you were only a level 2 Monk when you multiclassed, then 5-6 levels of XXX PRC XXX stacks with the Monk levels for determining the AC. You do not get that AC bonus UNLESS you've already got a monk level or two. So unless you had a class which grants the Wild Shape class ability BEFORE you went into Arcane Hierophant, you can't GET that ability, but if you had a class with that ability (Druid1, for example), the AH levels stacks with Druid levels to determine Wild Shape. Simple as that. Exactly, but I wouldnt call it simple. Simply put: The levels _stack_ with Druid, but they do not _grant_ Wild Shape. A fighter4/Wizard4/AH8 for example, would not get Wild Shape as an 8th level Druid, but a Druid5/Monk4/AH3 would. The question is, Would a WIZ3/DRD4/AH4 have the wildshape ability? A DRD4 DOES NOT have any ability to wildshape, so do the AH levels grant it?
Drachasor 06-04-05, 03:07 PM	The question is, Would a WIZ3/DRD4/AH4 have the wildshape ability? A DRD4 DOES NOT have any ability to wildshape, so do the AH levels grant it? From the examples elsewhere it is pretty clear they mean that if an Arcane Heirophant has a class that grants wildshape at some point, then AH levels stack with that class for determining your wildshape ability. -Drachasor
Merryadocc 06-04-05, 03:12 PM	The question is, Would a WIZ3/DRD4/AH4 have the wildshape ability? A DRD4 DOES NOT have any ability to wildshape, so do the AH levels grant it? Yes
Todd 06-04-05, 07:55 PM	The question is, Would a WIZ3/DRD4/AH4 have the wildshape ability? A DRD4 DOES NOT have any ability to wildshape, so do the AH levels grant it? Yes. As posted above it's the fact that he used Druid instead of Ranger or some other divine class to enter AH that matters for this.
RPGhaulsass 06-05-05, 08:42 AM	Exactly, but I wouldnt call it simple. The question is, Would a WIZ3/DRD4/AH4 have the wildshape ability? A DRD4 DOES NOT have any ability to wildshape, so do the AH levels grant it? What I said was that the levels STACK with Druid levels. So someone with Druid levels who takes AH levels before gaining the Wild Shape ability would get that ability from AH levels, as they STACK with Druid levels. AH levels alone doesn't grant Wild Shape, but Druid and AH levels combined grants wild shape. Thus an AH10 wouldn't get Wild Shape, and neither would a Monk5/AH10,k but a Druid4/AH6 would, because the levels STACK for Wild Shape.
RogerWilco 06-05-05, 01:35 PM	I had a few questions I asked Customer service that are partially related: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Discussion Thread Response (Sam S.) 03/29/2005 03:37 PM Thank you for contacting us, The Druid3/Wiz4/ArcHei2 does qualify for Master of Many Forms. The temporary Alertness feat does not let you qualify for MoMF. The MoMF does stack with previous wildshape abilities for duration and Hit Dice. Keep in mind that druid levels do not stack with MoMF for wildshape unless you have enough druid levels to get the wildshape ability (level 5). Good Gaming! To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Sam S. Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST ------------------------------------------------------------ Dear customer service/ Chris, The Arcane Hierophant can be found on page 108-113 of the "Races of the Wild" Dungeons and Dragons gaming acessory by Skip Williams ISBN 0-7869-3438-7. Adriaan Renting. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 28 Mar 2005 at 10:44, Wizards Customer Service wrote: > > Game rules question - Dungeons & Dragons/Forgotten Realms/Eberron > Feedback > From: Adriaan () (User ID RogerWilco on the forums/boards) > > I have just bought Complete Adventurer and Races of the Wild and have four > questions pertaining to combinations of the Arcane Hierophant and Master > of Many Forms: > > - Does a druid3/Wiz4/ArcaneHierophant2 with Alertness and Endurance > qualify for the MoMF? > > -Actually no, since they don't have the wild shape class feature (unless > provided by the arcane hierophant). > > - Would the Alertness granted by the Wizard Familiar/ ArcaneHierophant > Companion Familiar be sufficient to qualify for MoMF? > > -Actually no, you'd have to devote a slot to the actual feat. > > - Can a Druid8/MoMF1 take the form of Large Humanoid of 9 HD, can a > Druid15/MoMF3 take the form of a Huge Giant of 18HD? in other words: do > maximum HD stack and the ability to change into Large/Tiny/Huge transfer > between Druid/MoMF > > -To turn into a form that is only supported by the MoMF PrC, you would > have to achieve the level where that size is available on the PrC > advancement. For example the Druid8/MoMF1 could turn into a large > animal, or a medium humanoid. > > - Messages from customer service posted on the boards seem to indicate > that wildshape HD maximum and duration should stack between Druid and > MoMF, does this include the levels granted by Arcane Hierophant, or is > this invalid and do these not stack? > > -If you could provide a book title and page number for the arcane > hierophant, I'd be happy to assist you further with this. Thank you for > your patience. Good gaming! > > Please quote this email in any reply. > ************************************** * > Chris > Customer Service Department > Wizards of the Coast > 1-800-324-6496 > ************************************ ***