arcane mystic theurge [Archive] - Wizards Community

arcane mystic theurge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
lbmess
06-03-04, 10:42 AM Hey all

Does anyone play wiz/sorc multiclass? And do people think that a prestige class, along the lines of mystic theurge, for characters that have 2 arcane spellcasting classes would be too powerful?

The reqs for this class would be exactly like MT except substitute anything that has to do with religion with arcana.

Basically this caster would have an insane number of arcane spells per day, but would be behind in the level of spells he could cast compared to the rest of the party.
Moonstonedragon
06-03-04, 11:52 AM Wouldnt be to powerful, you have to keep your wizard and socr spells seperate and mystic theurge only gives you +1 to arcane and divine casting, so only one (the wiz or sor) would go up the other would be left behind
lbmess
06-03-04, 12:04 PM the point was a class *like* mystic theurge, but changed so that the character gets one level each of 2 arcane classes.

so a wiz/sorc 3/4 who gains a level in this hypothetical arcane mystic theurge class would cast spells as a wiz4 sorc5.

he would not gain any extra metamagic feats, only the caster level of the wiz is increased. Which I think means he would not get his 2 spells to put in his spellbook, although he would gain more sorcerer spells (I think).
Bard of DorAr
06-03-04, 12:04 PM Ask and you shall recieve. Though I'm still looking for a better name

Arcane Theurge

Requirements:
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks

Feats: Spell Focus (Chosen school), Spell Penetration

Spells: Must be able to cast arcane spells of from two different class sources (IE Bard and Sorceror, Wizard and Bard, or Sorceror and Wizard) Must be able to cast 3rd level spells in one of these classes and 2nd level spells in the other.

Special: Must be able to prepare spells (either through feat or wizard levels)

Special: Your Inate caster class (or one of them in the case of a Bard/Sorceror) Must focus exclusively on ONE school of magic (IE Abjuration, Alteration, etc, etc, etc). They must have never learned any spells in that class outside the school and may not do so.

d4 Hit Dice
No Base Attack Advancement
Good Will saves, bad Reflex and Fortitude
2 plus intelligence skill points per level.
Class Skills will be Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Knowledge (all of em, taken individually), Profession, and Spellcraft.

Benefits
Level 1: +1 to EACH existing arcane spellcasting class
Level 2: +1 to EACH existing arcane spellcasting class
Level 3: +1 to ONE existing arcane spellcasting class, Focused Spells +1
Level4: +1 to ONE existing arcane spellcasting class, Bonus Feat
Level 5: +1 to EACH existing arcane spellcasting class
Level 6: +1 to EACH existing arcane spellcasting class, Focused Spells +2
Level 7: +1 to ONE existing arcane spellcasting class, Bonus Feat
Level 8: +1 to EACH existing arcane spellcasting class
Level 9: +1 to EACH existing arcane spellcsating class, Focused Spells +3
Level 10: +1 to ONE existing arcane spellcasting class, Bonus Feat

Focused Spells: Through his inner calling to a singular aspect of magic, as well as his ability to study it from two different angles, he learns to better use such power. They gain a +1 bonus to their spell DC's and to their rolls to overcome enemy SR (This increased to +2 at level 6, and +2 at level 9).

Bonus Feat: Each feat may be selected from any allowable meta-magic feats, however these bonus feats work only in conjuncture with the caster's chosen school of magic.

It's not THAT broken due to the inability to get 9th level spells. If you were to bend the classes in ways to favor one over the other the best you get is level 5 spells in one and level 8 in the other. So far there haven't been any balance problems with the class.
lbmess
06-03-04, 12:20 PM Bard of DorAr

did you just come up with that or had you already made it? It is pretty much what I had in mind.

What about if you dropped the restriction that one of the classes can only have spells for one school, so a full on wiz/sorc could take the class? Or maybe require the specialization feat for one (or two) schools, but not require that the character only have spells from that school?

I think that with bonus feats coming every 4 levels this is better than the wizards ability, even though they only apply to that one school, and the spell focus might be unbalanced, even though same.

And in mystic theurge the requirement is that both classes have ability to cast 2nd level spells, not one 3rd and one second. I didnt know if that was intentional.
DaTedinator
06-03-04, 12:51 PM I'd say just take Mystic Theurge, and make the following changes:

Requirements:
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 6 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks
Spells: Must be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells from two separate classes.

Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Spells Per Day: Make it apply to two arcane classes, instead of two divine.

That sound good?
lbmess
06-03-04, 12:54 PM that is originally what i had in mind.

the mystic theurge class as written in the srd applies to one arcane and one divine class.
Tony Vargas
06-03-04, 01:06 PM This is probably a pointless and pompous remark, but...

Theurgy is the practice of magic to religious ends. Thaumaturgy is magic turned to temporal ends. 'Mystic Theurge' thus implies, at least a bit, a fusion of arcane and divine. 'Arcane Theurge' would have a comparable connotation. Those definitions are totally obscure, and I may not even have them right, but, you might not want to use 'Theurge' in the name of the class... FWIW.

:embarrass
lbmess
06-03-04, 01:11 PM feel free to suggest names. ;) I was less concerned with naming the class and more concerned with balance issues...
Tony Vargas
06-03-04, 01:35 PM I don't see a big balance issue. In 3.0 Wiz/Clerics were rare, but might have a point since they at least combined two different spell lists - Wiz/Sorcs were vanishingly rare, more like a theoretical exercise or an example of why multiclassing could be wildly ineffective.

The only real issue is that, from a divine caster's PoV, MT requires sacrificing BAB, hps, and Fort saves, while there's no such 'sacrifice' from the Sorc/Wiz PoV.

The concepts of a Sorcerer seeking training and becoming more Wiz-like, or a Wiz gaining such mastery of some of his spells that he begins to cast them spontaneously, are pretty reasonable/interesting, and suggest a Wiz/Sorc on the surface, but the combination doesn't work out that way. A dual-arcane version of a mystic theurge would still suffer from the same problem: the casting abilities remaining compartmentalized instead of growing one out of the other.

For a name, 'Mystic Thaumaturge' might work. Arcane, Occult, and Mystic all have similar connotations of secret knowledge. Of course, there really is no need to stick to 'real' meanings of words - a 'sorcerer' for instance, is traditionally someone who deals with spirits, rather than a charismatic fellow with an innate talent for tossing fireballs. FWIW.

The idea of Wiz/Sorcs might also work as a campaign-specific order or school.
lbmess
06-03-04, 01:56 PM TV

I agree with your last post. The version of arcane MT that was posted by Bard does relate to what you wrote about the sorcerer/wiz abilities growing on each other, as it restricts the inate class to one school of magic and then gives the "focused spell" ability to that one school.
Shadowfoot
06-03-04, 03:05 PM I have two that would qualify:

Eldritch Savant (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105732)
Magus (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120270)
Sensei Gith
06-03-04, 04:43 PM Arcane/arcane is inferior to arcane/divine because you simply get more of the same spells instead of a wider variety.
Jell_Moo
06-03-04, 04:59 PM I doubt he would be considered overpowered. Look at the Cerebremancer from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Combines a Psion with a Wizard. That's certainly much more powerful than a Wizard/Sorceror combo.

Besides, who wants to use two different stats to cast spells from the same spell list?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lbmess 06-03-04, 10:42 AM	Hey all Does anyone play wiz/sorc multiclass? And do people think that a prestige class, along the lines of mystic theurge, for characters that have 2 arcane spellcasting classes would be too powerful? The reqs for this class would be exactly like MT except substitute anything that has to do with religion with arcana. Basically this caster would have an insane number of arcane spells per day, but would be behind in the level of spells he could cast compared to the rest of the party.
Moonstonedragon 06-03-04, 11:52 AM	Wouldnt be to powerful, you have to keep your wizard and socr spells seperate and mystic theurge only gives you +1 to arcane and divine casting, so only one (the wiz or sor) would go up the other would be left behind
lbmess 06-03-04, 12:04 PM	the point was a class like mystic theurge, but changed so that the character gets one level each of 2 arcane classes. so a wiz/sorc 3/4 who gains a level in this hypothetical arcane mystic theurge class would cast spells as a wiz4 sorc5. he would not gain any extra metamagic feats, only the caster level of the wiz is increased. Which I think means he would not get his 2 spells to put in his spellbook, although he would gain more sorcerer spells (I think).
Bard of DorAr 06-03-04, 12:04 PM	Ask and you shall recieve. Though I'm still looking for a better name Arcane Theurge Requirements: Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks Feats: Spell Focus (Chosen school), Spell Penetration Spells: Must be able to cast arcane spells of from two different class sources (IE Bard and Sorceror, Wizard and Bard, or Sorceror and Wizard) Must be able to cast 3rd level spells in one of these classes and 2nd level spells in the other. Special: Must be able to prepare spells (either through feat or wizard levels) Special: Your Inate caster class (or one of them in the case of a Bard/Sorceror) Must focus exclusively on ONE school of magic (IE Abjuration, Alteration, etc, etc, etc). They must have never learned any spells in that class outside the school and may not do so. d4 Hit Dice No Base Attack Advancement Good Will saves, bad Reflex and Fortitude 2 plus intelligence skill points per level. Class Skills will be Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Knowledge (all of em, taken individually), Profession, and Spellcraft. Benefits Level 1: +1 to EACH existing arcane spellcasting class Level 2: +1 to EACH existing arcane spellcasting class Level 3: +1 to ONE existing arcane spellcasting class, Focused Spells +1 Level4: +1 to ONE existing arcane spellcasting class, Bonus Feat Level 5: +1 to EACH existing arcane spellcasting class Level 6: +1 to EACH existing arcane spellcasting class, Focused Spells +2 Level 7: +1 to ONE existing arcane spellcasting class, Bonus Feat Level 8: +1 to EACH existing arcane spellcasting class Level 9: +1 to EACH existing arcane spellcsating class, Focused Spells +3 Level 10: +1 to ONE existing arcane spellcasting class, Bonus Feat Focused Spells: Through his inner calling to a singular aspect of magic, as well as his ability to study it from two different angles, he learns to better use such power. They gain a +1 bonus to their spell DC's and to their rolls to overcome enemy SR (This increased to +2 at level 6, and +2 at level 9). Bonus Feat: Each feat may be selected from any allowable meta-magic feats, however these bonus feats work only in conjuncture with the caster's chosen school of magic. It's not THAT broken due to the inability to get 9th level spells. If you were to bend the classes in ways to favor one over the other the best you get is level 5 spells in one and level 8 in the other. So far there haven't been any balance problems with the class.
lbmess 06-03-04, 12:20 PM	Bard of DorAr did you just come up with that or had you already made it? It is pretty much what I had in mind. What about if you dropped the restriction that one of the classes can only have spells for one school, so a full on wiz/sorc could take the class? Or maybe require the specialization feat for one (or two) schools, but not require that the character only have spells from that school? I think that with bonus feats coming every 4 levels this is better than the wizards ability, even though they only apply to that one school, and the spell focus might be unbalanced, even though same. And in mystic theurge the requirement is that both classes have ability to cast 2nd level spells, not one 3rd and one second. I didnt know if that was intentional.
DaTedinator 06-03-04, 12:51 PM	I'd say just take Mystic Theurge, and make the following changes: Requirements: Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 6 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks Spells: Must be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells from two separate classes. Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int). Spells Per Day: Make it apply to two arcane classes, instead of two divine. That sound good?
lbmess 06-03-04, 12:54 PM	that is originally what i had in mind. the mystic theurge class as written in the srd applies to one arcane and one divine class.
Tony Vargas 06-03-04, 01:06 PM	This is probably a pointless and pompous remark, but... Theurgy is the practice of magic to religious ends. Thaumaturgy is magic turned to temporal ends. 'Mystic Theurge' thus implies, at least a bit, a fusion of arcane and divine. 'Arcane Theurge' would have a comparable connotation. Those definitions are totally obscure, and I may not even have them right, but, you might not want to use 'Theurge' in the name of the class... FWIW. :embarrass
lbmess 06-03-04, 01:11 PM	feel free to suggest names. ;) I was less concerned with naming the class and more concerned with balance issues...
Tony Vargas 06-03-04, 01:35 PM	I don't see a big balance issue. In 3.0 Wiz/Clerics were rare, but might have a point since they at least combined two different spell lists - Wiz/Sorcs were vanishingly rare, more like a theoretical exercise or an example of why multiclassing could be wildly ineffective. The only real issue is that, from a divine caster's PoV, MT requires sacrificing BAB, hps, and Fort saves, while there's no such 'sacrifice' from the Sorc/Wiz PoV. The concepts of a Sorcerer seeking training and becoming more Wiz-like, or a Wiz gaining such mastery of some of his spells that he begins to cast them spontaneously, are pretty reasonable/interesting, and suggest a Wiz/Sorc on the surface, but the combination doesn't work out that way. A dual-arcane version of a mystic theurge would still suffer from the same problem: the casting abilities remaining compartmentalized instead of growing one out of the other. For a name, 'Mystic Thaumaturge' might work. Arcane, Occult, and Mystic all have similar connotations of secret knowledge. Of course, there really is no need to stick to 'real' meanings of words - a 'sorcerer' for instance, is traditionally someone who deals with spirits, rather than a charismatic fellow with an innate talent for tossing fireballs. FWIW. The idea of Wiz/Sorcs might also work as a campaign-specific order or school.
lbmess 06-03-04, 01:56 PM	TV I agree with your last post. The version of arcane MT that was posted by Bard does relate to what you wrote about the sorcerer/wiz abilities growing on each other, as it restricts the inate class to one school of magic and then gives the "focused spell" ability to that one school.
Shadowfoot 06-03-04, 03:05 PM	I have two that would qualify: Eldritch Savant (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105732) Magus (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120270)
Sensei Gith 06-03-04, 04:43 PM	Arcane/arcane is inferior to arcane/divine because you simply get more of the same spells instead of a wider variety.
Jell_Moo 06-03-04, 04:59 PM	I doubt he would be considered overpowered. Look at the Cerebremancer from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Combines a Psion with a Wizard. That's certainly much more powerful than a Wizard/Sorceror combo. Besides, who wants to use two different stats to cast spells from the same spell list?