| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| Meles_Meles12-21-07, 08:52 AM | Arcane Pyro-swordsman: BAB: as Bard Saves: Good will, poor reflex and fortitude Armored casting: As Bard Armor proficiency: Light armor and shields (not tower) Weapon proficiency: All simple, plus all weapons summoned by class abilities Spell progression, known spells and casting: as Bard, Cha based Spell list: Can choose known spells from any spell list, provided that the spell has the Fire descriptor Skills: As Bard Level 1: Sp: Warm sword, standard actions (summon MW longsword made of glowing light with occasional flames running down its length, sheds heat and light as a lantern but does no fire damage, lasts until dismissed, disappears when it leaves your hands, can only have one at a time, can be held in one or both hands), Sp: Constant Endure Elements, Sp: Spark, at will can take a full round action to ignite an unattended nonmagical item. Level 2: Sp: Flame sword (warm sword does +1 fire damage), Sword can be used to set unattended items on fire, Sp: Faerie Fire (number of times per day equal to half class level) Level 3: Gain any +2/+2 Skill feat, Sp: Resist Energy on self 1/day (caster level = 1/2 class level), against cold or fire only, Fast Summon (The sword can now be summoned as a swift action) Level 4: Flame sword does +1d4 fire damage, +1 enhancement bonus to the sword Level 5: Sp: Flaming Burst 1/day (swift action, the next attack gains Cha bonus to hit and deals 2d6+Cha bonus fire damage, target must make Reflex save vs DC 12 + Cha bonus to avoid catching fire), Ex: Parry +1 (Gain +1 shield bonus to AC (stacks with other shield bonuses) while wielding a summoned weapon) Level 6: Flame sword does +1d6 fire damage, can be summoned as a greatsword or greatclub Level 7: Instant Summon: Summoning a weapon is an immediate action Level 8: Half of the fire damage dealt by weapon and spells is Arcane Fire, which bypasses energy resistance or immunity. Level 9: Flaming Burst 2/day, Parry +2 Level 10: Can be summoned as a whip which doesn't provoke AoO when used for regular attacks and does lethal damage, +2 enhancement bonus Level 13: Flaming Burst 3/day, Parry +3 Level 17: Flaming Burst 4/day, Parry +4 Note: The weapon can be enchanted, and an enchantment placed on the weapon applies to all forms (whip, greatsword, longsword, etc). The enhancement bonuses granted by class levels increase the price of enchantment as normal. |
| RobbyPants12-21-07, 09:48 AM | Well, I certainly don't think it's overpowered. It seems relatively weak. If the player is cool with the class as written, let him use it. My understanding is with this PrC, the character can add warmage spells to their list of spells known, but they lose the bard healing spells. So, a few questions: Do they keep any healing spells they had before taking the class? I would say yes. The warmage list only expands their spell list, but they must still pick spells known from their list, correct? Bards only get up to 6th level spells. Does this mean they will only have access to 6th level warmage spells? All in all, it looks like you have a bard, that doesn't advance their bardic music, but they get an expanded spell list, and the ability to summon a relatively weak weapon. If you want to beef it up a bit, perhaps let them add the flaming mod (+1d6 fire damage) to a melee weapon they have once per day. Every two levels let them do it another time per day. Maybe it lasts one round or one minute per their Cha bonus (minimum of one). This allows them to enhance an existing weapon, rather than create a new one with only that ability. Perhaps they can eventually add flaming burst to their weapon. Granted, you don't want to add too much in if the class is still full casting, but I was just looking for a way to keep the firey weapon useful. By 7th or 8th level, your typical character should already be able to afford a +2 weapon (such as a +1 flaming weapon), so gaining the ability to create one at 6th level of the PrC (assuming roughly 11th character level) is relatively weak. Also, what are the prereqs for this class, or are you assuming the PC already met them? |
| Meles_Meles12-21-07, 10:15 AM | Oh...sorry. This is a core class, not PrC. I just hadn't thought up abilities for the last 10 levels yet. |
| RobbyPants12-21-07, 10:37 AM | Oh...sorry. This is a core class, not PrC. I just hadn't thought up abilities for the last 10 levels yet. That changes a lot! ;) Well, let's see from there: I guess I'd suggest bumping the +1 enhancement up to 4th level. Every non-weapon class or feat I've seen (monk, soulknife, vow of poverty) seems to give either a +1 bonus or the ability to bypass damage reduction X/magic is always granted at 4th level. Perhaps base the progression on the soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm) to an extent (at least for weapon damage and enhancement). Now, you have a 2/3 casting class (that's really what the bard is), so that adds to it's power, but compared to the soul knife, you have one good save compared to its two, and having not listed hit dice, I'm assuming d6 compared to d10. For flavor, you'll have to remove the pyschic strike, but perhaps it can be some sort of per encounter or per day based fire damage instead. Because you have spells, the throw mindblade feature doesn't make a lot of sense. If I think up more I'll post it. |
| Meles_Meles12-21-07, 11:00 AM | RobbyPants, thanks for the feedback. I'd prefer to use Bard as the base, since it has the spellcasting/skill selection I prefer. Also, this class isn't intended to be a melee expert like the Soulknife. I want to give it lower power than the soulknife to allow for the somewhat powerful spellcasting abilities. New version is up, with a smite-ish ability. What do you think? (The +2/+2 Skill feat is for my campaign's flavor not for any crunch. I know it doesn't fit with the rest of the class, so feel free to ignore it) |
| RobbyPants12-21-07, 11:28 AM | It's not too bad. It's still a little weak, but I think it could be fun to play, and if the player is happy with it, you can probably just go with it. I wasn't saying you should base the whole class around the soulknife, but rather the progression of the mind blade abilities. |
| Blackstaff12-21-07, 12:18 PM | I think it looks fairly well balanced. Let's not forget that he's still getting full Bard spell progression, which is most of a Bard's powerbase anyways. If you think you need to beef up the abilities a little more I would consider giving him some Defensive abilities, since with the powers the Pyro-Swordsman has now he'll need to be on the front lines to make good use of 'em and doesn't have the armor of a fighter to keep him safe. Maybe some version of a Fire Shield ability would be cool. 1/day at 7th, 2/day at 14th, say. Again, this is for a private game and since the player is interested in the class then I wouldn't be too worried about it. You can always change it around a little bit once you've gotten started if it looks over/under powered. :mage: |
| Meles_Meles12-21-07, 12:47 PM | I've given two defensive abilities now, but not directly combat-related. At first level there's an Endure Elements, and at third there's a self-only Resist Energy. I think the player will like this class. |
| CantripN12-21-07, 01:00 PM | Seems balanced enough, if not outright weak. It's giving up Bardic Music and Bardic Knowledge for the abilities, so I think it deserves a bit more. For instance, it could count as Cold Iron, Silver and Adamantine all at once at level 12, and set it's target on fire with a DC 15 reflex to negate at level 3 or so (increasing the damage and DC with levels). |
| Meles_Meles12-21-07, 01:05 PM | Yeah, setting the target on fire seems valid...I'll try something along those lines... Edit: I'm going to only allow it with the flaming burst ability. |
| CantripN12-21-07, 02:17 PM | Seems okay, even if I'd have liked to see more uses of the Flaming Burst ability. How about starting at 3/day and increasing from there as normal? Also, you should clarify what type of bonus to AC is parry. Is it a Dodge bonus? Untyped? Does it apply to Touch AC? Flat-footed AC? Finally, you should probably say whether the Whip deals lethal damage (it is made of flames, after all) and whether using it provokes AOOs as normal. It seems balanced only if doesn't provoke AOOs. If it does, it's all but useless. There are precedents for such whips, btw (Water Whip in Complete Arcane, for instance). |
| Meles_Meles12-21-07, 02:25 PM | CantripN: Stop making useful comments! :P I'll have a shot at fixing those oversights. |
| CantripN12-21-07, 04:22 PM | Heh. :) Just a few more, I promise! Perhaps I'd missed the +CHA to hit before for Flaming Burst... With that, it's like a Smite, so the progression is just fine. You should probably have other effects for different energy types at the usual DC instead of setting things on fire, though. Ideas for Flaming Burst (other energy types): Cold - Slow for 1 round? Electricity - +3 to hit Metal objects (no save)? Sonic - Deafen for 1 minute? Force - Bull-Rush using your DC-10? Acid - -2 AC unless he makes the save? |
| JaronK12-21-07, 04:42 PM | Did you mean armour proficiency: light and shields? Simple armour doesn't exist. JaronK |
| ryfte12-21-07, 04:52 PM | What's the goal of the class? Most of what I wrote up down here is a change from what you've got while trying to keep the "feel" I think you're going for. You're really trying of a full casting (elemental bard type) light meleeist... I think... right? Arcane Pyro-swordsman: Hmmm... this was a suitable name until all of a sudden you let them change element type. *shrug* If the "weapon" can be enchanted why allow them to change the element type at all? If the concern is about immunities and DR then the enchantment on the weapon becomes more important. Since it's really a caster I'd recommend that you allow the meta-magic feats of energy substitution be allowed to affect the weapon. It would require a feat to change energy types then but being able to modify energy type effectively on the fly is a relatively powerful thing to have. If you wanted to allow it to even be more "advanced" you could allow the energy additive one as well. The weapon could then appear as a swirling mass of two elements... adding to the "coolness factor" ;) Elemental Bladesman Armor proficiency: Simple and shields (not tower) I'm guessing this should be all light armors and shields (except tower shields). Weapon proficiency: All simple, plus all weapons summoned by class abilities. Since you're going full caster but going 3/4 BaB I'd give them simple and then allow them to select any single weapon to be proficient in at 1st level and every four levels. That would reflect specific training with those chosen weapons along with their arcane/elemental training. Note that opens up exotics which would normally be feat selected weapons even for a martial character. This is a nice ability as it gives them more flexibility and allows for more customization even for individuals of the same class. If you're going with the training type of instructor, etc., then it's a great way to work with the proficiency in an RP manner by tying it into an instructor type of situation. Spell list: combination of Warmage and Bard, minus healing spells Since you've dropped the bardic musical abilities why carry all that baggage in the spells? Sound oriented spells don't seem like they should really be a focus for this class. Granted it's additional work but they don't seem to integrate very well. Looking at melee/arcane PrC's could give you some good spell lists to use or combine and they might be more suitable. Level 1: • Touch of the Molten (Su): You can suffuse your hands and any held object with intense heat. This ability can be activated or deactivated as a standard action and increases in effect with higher level. This effect ends if the held object leaves your grasp for any reason. •• 1st Level: Your hands/weapon(s) radiate intense heat dealing +1 fire damage and light equivalent to a lantern (15' bright light radius; 30' shadowy) •• 4th Level: The intensity of heat increases and your hands and held items actually flicker with small flames. Any attack with a held weapon deals an additional 1d4 damage and you can set unattended items on fire with a touch as well. This additional fire damage increases by 1d4 every four levels reaching +5d4 fire damage at 20th level. Level 2: • Zephyr's Endurance (Su): At 2nd level you gain a permanent Endure Elements effect and always feel extremely warm to the touch. Level 3: • Faerie Fire (Su): You gain the ability to cast faerie fire as the spell a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of 1/day). The caster level of this ability is equal to your class level in this class. Level 5: • Unfocused Skill Insight (Ex): You learn skills easily and find many interests in the world around you. At 5th level and every additional 5 levels you gain 4 extra skill points which you can apply to any skill. Each point applied to a cross-class skill counts as double thus giving you an actual skill point in that skill. Level 7: • Resist Cold/Fire (Su): You gain Resistance Cold 5 and Resistance Fire 5. Level 8: • Shape Fire (Su): Instead of applying your heat/flames to a held weapon/object you can now shape the flames into an actual weapon. You can select the form of any weapon you are proficient with. The weapon deals no base damage, only the damage from your elemental ability (i.e. 2d4 at 8th level, 3d4 at 12th level, 4d4 at 16th level and 5d4 at 20th level), cannot be enchanted but can be modified by spells such as greater magic weapon, and all attacks made with the weapon are considered touch attacks. • Snuffed Flame (Su): All damage dealt by your heat/flames can be changed to subdual damage and it does not emit heat/light or light objects on fire. Could throw out some more to finish it off if you've got any interest... *shrug* |