Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GriffiN 07-19-05, 07:51 PM	I've noticed something and i dont know if its ever been posted before, i looked around and found nothing of sorts... so here goes Why is it that arcane spellcaster's spells dont improve in their DC saves except with magical items and every 8 levels? (twice improving main stat for spellcasting) that makes them the worst class ever due to the fact that every other class improves their fortitude, reflex and will saves, and gains stronger poweres, more uses and the sort. For example a lvl 20th sorcerer with 24 CHA stat would have the same chances of hitting a warrior as a 10 lvl sorcerer with 24 CHA and the same spell, and shouldn't it be that the 20th lvl sorcerer has better ways of overcoming the warriors fortitute, reflex or will than a 10th lvl sorcerer?? in conclusion the DC of a spell of an arcane spellcaster should have somewhere a level modifier...
Manyfist 07-19-05, 07:56 PM	I've noticed something and i dont know if its ever been posted before, i looked around and found nothing of sorts... so here goes Why is it that arcane spellcaster's spells dont improve in their DC saves except with magical items and every 8 levels? (twice improving main stat for spellcasting) that makes them the worst class ever due to the fact that every other class improves their fortitude, reflex and will saves, and gains stronger poweres, more uses and the sort. For example a lvl 20th sorcerer with 24 CHA stat would have the same chances of hitting a warrior as a 10 lvl sorcerer with 24 CHA and the same spell, and shouldn't it be that the 20th lvl sorcerer has better ways of overcoming the warriors fortitute, reflex or will than a 10th lvl sorcerer?? in conclusion the DC of a spell of an arcane spellcaster should have somewhere a level modifier... The DC of spells is. 10+ Spell Lvl + Main Ablity Mod. Edit: A lvl 20 should have more than 24 Cha. Edit again: Sorcerers and Wizards get Auto Scaleing, so don't complain.
GriffiN 07-19-05, 08:05 PM	just think... every level all classes improve their reflex, fortitude, will saves and their attacks... but the DC of a spellcaster improves every 8 levels if no enhancements are made... so how can one compete to that?
Radijs 07-19-05, 08:11 PM	Very easily. Where fighter types have to spend a fortune on magical weapons and armor the wizard has all his recources free to save up for that headband of intellect and the sorceror for his cloak of charisma. And the effects of arcane magic are broad and effective. A nice charm person or dominate person will quickly take care of the average fighter who doesn't have a good will save.
Manyfist 07-19-05, 08:12 PM	just think... every level all classes improve their reflex, fortitude, will saves and their attacks... but the DC of a spellcaster improves every 8 levels if no enhancements are made... so how can one compete to that? So what if every one improves either Two out of three, or One out of three saves? Look at the person you're fighting, if it's a rouge, cast a spell that requires a Fort save. If a Wizard, anything with Reflex, or Fort save is the key. Free Scaleing is a MAJOR plus, so choose the save that most people are weak against and you'll be fine.
GriffiN 07-19-05, 08:17 PM	thanx for the tips by the way what is scaleing?
TheAwersome 07-19-05, 08:33 PM	Very easily. Where fighter types have to spend a fortune on magical weapons and armor the wizard has all his recources free to save up for that headband of intellect and the sorceror for his cloak of charisma. And the effects of arcane magic are broad and effective. A nice charm person or dominate person will quickly take care of the average fighter who doesn't have a good will save. Wah, not necessarily. The wizard only gets two spells per level, unless she buys them, which are very expensive, considering you buy the scroll, and the 100GP for level of spell (materials for writing in spellbook.) Plus, arcane spellcasters get more powerful out the wazoo. There's a thing called higher level spells. That's what you use; that's what you get for higher levels. Not only that, but most spells have a modifier of "/per level," or "/per 2 lvls: etc. i.e. The spell scorching ray, a 2nd level spell, cast by a lvl 3 wizard deals 4d6 damage, as there is only one ray. But, that same spell cast by an 11th lvl wizard fires 3 rays, dealing 12d6. Almost every spell is more powerful depending on level, be it the spell's duration, number of targets, dice of damage, area of affect. So, you can say that arcane spellcasters have a greater advantage over almost any other class when it comes to getting more powerful by gaining levels. Also, many spells don't allow saves, or allow only certain kinds.
Dark_beebles 07-20-05, 04:06 AM	thanx for the tips by the way what is scaleing? New spell lvl's...give you a higher DC. Yes the others are right..Use their weakness as your advantage..use will/fort against rogues or will against ftrs..or fort against wizards. If you find yourself against a guy with good saves all around because of stats and items...Use spells that dont allow saves like Enervation or spell that lower saves like quillblast for example. Of if those fail, nothing like good old monster summons or grease =p
beaver1024 07-20-05, 06:33 AM	What happens when you're fighting a monster with all good saves? Or a monk? Also how do you tell a target is a rogue or a fighter or a wizard? Do they have big signs on their heads saying I've got a weak fort save, hit me with a finger of death?
Torack 07-20-05, 06:49 AM	You resort to Magic Missile... Technically speaking there are heaps of no-save-no-spell-resistance spells available. It takes a bit of digging, but the rewards are well-worth the digging.
Radijs 07-20-05, 07:16 AM	The guy wearing the spiked fullplate isn't likely to be a rogue and the guy in the leather armor who is carrying light weapons is probably more dexterous then the fighter in the fullplate. Oh and the guy running towards you without weapons is probably a monk or a complete nutcase.
Nyferto 07-20-05, 07:50 AM	Well the 20th level Sorc can cast Gate, so saving throws aren't that much of an issue. You do know that Divine Casters have the same issue? Anyway, as you go up in level there's the potential to cast better spells, and not all spells do nothing on a save, and not all spells have a save. Scalling is when something increases automatically with level. It can come in many forms, anything that's added to a d20 is typically scaling in nature, because then you're adding a fixed percenatage increase of effect. For example, if you add +4 to spell DC's, it will always be a 20% improvement to the frequency of saving thows failure.
Zorminster 07-20-05, 08:10 AM	okay guys, correct me if im wrong on this one. None of these numbers except for the saves are RAW- im too lazy to look things like that up right now so bear with me Youve got a wizard. Hes 11th level. He has we will say, 19 intellect (+4). As an 11th level wizard hes got access to 1 7th level spell per day (remember, these numbers are out the rump right now so no flames if 11th level wiz cant cast 7s or if they get more than 1). He also has (from 0->6): 7/6/5/4/3/2 per day. Now, hes effectively Caster Level (CL) 11. He casts fireball, a fourth level spell. Would his spell save dc be: 10+4+11 (his CL?) or 10+4+4 (fireball) since fireball is something like, d8/level (again, numbers out the rump) is it judged to be a level 4 spell? or a level 11 since it will be doing 11d8? This is something thats never been real clear to me with spell scaling and clarification would be GREATLY appreciated.
Jell_Moo 07-20-05, 09:19 AM	Now, hes effectively Caster Level (CL) 11. He casts fireball, a fourth level spell. Would his spell save dc be: Fireball is a third level spell. 10+4+11 (his CL?) or 10+4+4 (fireball) The formula is 10 + Casting Modifier + Spell Level In this case it would 10 +4 (Int mod) +3 (Fireball's spell level) for a total DC of 17. since fireball is something like, d8/level (again, numbers out the rump) is it judged to be a level 4 spell? or a level 11 since it will be doing 11d8? This is something thats never been real clear to me with spell scaling and clarification would be GREATLY appreciated. Fireball does d6 per level. When looking at level dependent effects on spells (like the damage of fireball) it is almost always talking about Spellcaster level. So an 11th level Wizard is an 11th level Spellcaster. When you look at the description of Fireball, it says it does 1d6 damage per caster level, to a maximum of 10d6. So your 11th level Wizard fires off Fireballs that do 10d6 points of damage.
Zorminster 07-20-05, 10:09 AM	ggrrr.... i guess im going to have to start bringing my PHB to work with me so i dont say stuff like that :P My post wasn't so much supposed to be accurate as express the concept- Thats pretty much how i figured it worked (using the spell level, not the effective spell level)- sadly that does mean that casters sorta get shafted in terms of that. In my opinion though, it dosnt matter because casters already overshadow fighters and barbrs so much as it is.
Banedir 07-20-05, 10:21 AM	The save DCs of a caster's magic does improve with level, in a way, because he becomes able to cast higher level spells, or heighten his old spells to higher slots, and these come with higher DCs built right in. So while a twelth level wizard's first level spells may have largely the same save DC that had back when the wizard was sixth level, that wizard is now capable of casting sixth level spells that are harder to resist. Then there's the issue of what a successful save means. At lower levels, where the wizard's DCs are generally harder for a target to beat, the consequences might be sleep, or becoming dazed, or fatigued. Serious yes, but not necessarily fatal (Sleep can be, but that's hit-dice limited) and with no ill-effects if the target beats the curve and makes his save. Now, at higher levels, targets generally have a better chance to fight the magic off, but the consequences of failure are incredibly harsh (paralysis, death, turned into an idiot) and there's often ill-effects even if the save is made. Getting hit by a Finger of Death will ALWAYS hurt, and unless you've got Evasion, or apropriate fire protection, a Fireball will take away a chunk of your health whether you mitigate the damage or not. So, there is a sort of balance there. Then there are other forms of attack. Many spells that require a touch or ranged touch attack to hit, simply don't allow a saving throw. This makes them very good for targetting characters like paladins, whose saves might be sky-high, but who rely on armour for defense that will not protect them from being touched. Then of course, you have indirect magic. Even if you can't beat a save, or threaten consequences even if the save is made, or land a touch attack, then you can always do magic on the environment, or on your friends. Don't have any friends? Then you can summon some, or animate an object, or raise up some undead. There are plenty of options.
Rowan_Whispercloak 07-20-05, 10:27 AM	There is also the Spell Focus Feat, and if you push it ability focus. If you want scaleable magic, then maybe you should have the magic work like psionics and have a base effect and have them spend more points and have the saves go up with the point increase.
ArochanoX 07-21-05, 05:34 AM	Well good save is ½ level + 2 (+ ability mod) poor save is 1/3 level (+ ability mod) DC for highest level spell is ½ level + 1 (+ ability mod) DC for current middle level spell is 1/4 level + ½ (+ ability mod) When compared good save against the highest level spell the odds are about 50-50 for success, but when using slightly lower level spells, they have again about 50-50 odds against the poor save. It is so because spellcasters have so few high-level spells known that it's lucky situation when you're able to fire high-level spell against a poor save. But when you're out of usable high-level spells you use lower level ones. But you know more lower level spells and are likely prepared many types of spells so you have a choice which spell to use. Preferably against the poor save. As a sidenote middle-level spells have only about 25% efectiveness against good save.
Traevanon 07-21-05, 08:25 AM	That's good math ArachanoX. I've always thought the situation could eventually break down, but not until Epic at least. 30th level caster, 7th level spell, greater spell focus, 25 Int = 26DC Good save, 30th level fighter, 18 Con, Cloak of Resistance +5 = +26 Fort Bad save, 30th level fighter, Feat, 14 stat, Cloak of Resistance +5 = +20 save To balance things out I have (in reserve) a class of magic items for casters that will boost the DC of saves against their spells. That +1 to +5 (at the cost of an item slot) should balance things out if they get out of whack. Of course this will be about 3 years from now (characters are 10th level now).
Pax 07-21-05, 12:36 PM	That's good math ArachanoX. I've always thought the situation could eventually break down, but not until Epic at least. Epic has different rules for saves. Everyone gets +1 per 2 levels after 20th. 30th level caster, 7th level spell, greater spell focus, 25 Int = 26DC If this is a straight-class caster who hasn't picked up a few "Increased Spell Capacity" feats, and Improved Heighten, then he deserves what he gets. Seriously. Then, there's also always Epic spellcasting - the busted-est set of rules a Munchkin could ever have a wet-dream about. 8P But, really - let's say this is a straight-class caster, alright? They get class bonus feats at 23d, 26th, and 29th levels. Character-level feats at 21st, 24th, 27th, and 30th levels. That's seven feats. If you want to be a DC Monger, you take Improved Heighten once, and Increased Spell Capacity six times - giving you 15th level slots. Pick a spell, ANY spell, and jack the DC up to 25+casting modifier. And by 30th level, iuf you're not sporting a casting attribute of AT LEAST fourty, you've done somethinghorribly wrong. So, we're looking at a DC 35 to 36 for that spell - right about at that 50/50 mark. And without factoring in Spell Focus and the like, too.
Traevanon 07-22-05, 09:08 AM	As I said, I'll worry about that in about two or three years, when my players get to Epic.