Arcane Trickster vs. Mystic Theurge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Trickster vs. Mystic Theurge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Stardust
03-04-07, 07:15 PM Hi all, as is usual for me it's a kinda long post, but I may as well explain what the situation is. Kudos to all who read it through.

I'm shortly going to be playing a game run by a newbie DM. He's got some experience as a player, but has never run a campaign before. As such, he's specified core-only, but allowed us to start at level 3. There will only be three players including myself - a fairly experienced player who is going druid (for the first time) and a fairly inexperienced player who really wants to play a bard.

So, as probably the most experienced player in the group, it's going to fall to me to try and fill in the gaps left by the choices of the other two. The experienced druid should be able to fill a variety of roles and is looking at the general route of going melee using his animal companion (a wolf) to flank and using the majority of his magic to buff himself or other party members. The inexperienced player is set on playing a bard and I'm going to advise her to make the most of her pumped CHA to focus on social-based skills and enchantments.

So, that leaves me. I'm going to have to fill the role of arcane blaster (as bards are sorely lacking in the boomy area and the druid will be focussing on melee) and one other - either skills-based (depending on the bard's selection), or healing based (depending again on how the druid and bard play).
Basically, I've decided to play either a mystic theurge or an arcane trickster, because they're two classes I really want to try out. I'm fully aware that neither of these classes are uber-optimised, but I'm playing for fun and flavour as much as power. Still, once I've picked either class, I may as well try and make it as effective as I can to help out my party.

My question, finally!!! is, given the other two party members, which of the arcane trickster and mystic theurge would be the best at filling the hole in the party's capabilities? Both will have stunted spell progression, that's a given, but I'm hoping to make up with either skills and sneak attack, or healing and buffs. Any advice/particular spells or progressions would be much appreciated, especially if you have experience playing either PrC.

Thanks in advance!
j_gunder
03-04-07, 07:46 PM Neither of the choices, as you said, are going to be very optimized for the role of blaster...that's not to say you can't do it anyways. I would go with the Arcane Trickster, likely. You lose out on clerical healing and buffs, but gain some great non-magical attack options and a great set of skills. Taking the practiced spellcaster feat will help make up for the caster levels you lose to rogue in order to qualify for the Arcane Trickster.

I have never played one from level 1 on, but there is a really good article about the shortcomings of the Arcane Trickster on the boards here. I don't recommend it to try and sway you from your decision, but rather so that you can be aware of the problems you are going to run into.

Both the bard and the druid can function as healers, albeit with limited ability...so you should be fine on that front. Your group will need a roguish skill-monkey, and you should fill that role well.
travellersside
03-04-07, 08:23 PM Take the AT over the MT.

The first and most obvious thing is that neither of the other characters will be particularly good at scouting, nor can they deal with locks and traps. These are both pretty important. There are tricks to get around the absence of these skills, but it's less effort to just take a build that can handle them properly.
The choice between Mystic Theurge and Arcane Trickster is essentially the difference between taking a cleric and a rogue. Since both the bard and the druid will be able to easily cover most of the healing and restorative side of things, there's less need for a third source. Particularly since, as an Arcane Trickster, you should have a good UMD.
Clerics also provide some good group buffs which you would lose out on, but since the bard has a good selection, as does your mage component, you won't be doing too badly. Also, since both you and the bard have UMD, you can use various other sources for those key spells. If you're a wizard, you can 'borrow' a cleric to scribe some scrolls - cleric provides the spells, while you provide everything else. It'll require UMD to use, but that shouldn't be a problem.
The third reason to take a cleric is that they make good fighters. However, since your experienced player is taking a druid, that means that you'll have 2 decent fighters, thus requiring less help.
All in all, there's no compelling reason to take a cleric component, but quite an advantage in taking rogue. Don't focus on facework - that's for the bard, obviously. Instead, focus on tricks - mess around with the enemy, abuse utility spells and use that high Int to plan ahead. With a smaller group than normal, you'll need that planning.
Jaxgaret
03-05-07, 12:11 AM Your party already has enough healing potential with a Druid and a Bard, although more healing never really hurts. But of the two, your party will more likely need the AT's skills than the MT's healing.

Might I suggest an alternate route, if you have access to Dungeonscape; make a Ranger-based gish build, using Dungeonscape's ability variants to give the Ranger Trapfinding.

Alternatively, have the Bard take a level in Rogue and the Able Learner feat. And just go straight arcanist yourself. That would be optimal, really.
Stardust
03-05-07, 12:25 AM Thanks for the advice, all.

Unfortunately, to those who suggested non-core stuff, that's unavailable. As mentioned, the DM is new to the job and wants everything to be core-only so he doesn't have too much to deal with whilst getting to grips with the task.

That said, It might well be a better idea to have the bard take a level in rogue to give some extra skills and sneak attack damage. Unfortunately able learner wont be available, though. Shame.

On a positive note, the DM has said that I can play a Grey Elf (as it's in the monster manual and doesn't itself require knowledge of any additional rules beyond the stat adjustment). As such, I can pump dex and int pretty high at the expense of con and str (dumping cha and wis, which the bard and druid excel in respectively). This gives me a decent number of skill points, even as a wizard, meaning that I can keep MS, hide, disable device and open lock close to maxed out (within a rank or so) whilst throwing the odd spare skill point into the prereqs for AT.

I guess it's just a matter of talking to the others in the party to figure out who's going to cover which roles exactly.

Thanks for the responses!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stardust 03-04-07, 07:15 PM	Hi all, as is usual for me it's a kinda long post, but I may as well explain what the situation is. Kudos to all who read it through. I'm shortly going to be playing a game run by a newbie DM. He's got some experience as a player, but has never run a campaign before. As such, he's specified core-only, but allowed us to start at level 3. There will only be three players including myself - a fairly experienced player who is going druid (for the first time) and a fairly inexperienced player who really wants to play a bard. So, as probably the most experienced player in the group, it's going to fall to me to try and fill in the gaps left by the choices of the other two. The experienced druid should be able to fill a variety of roles and is looking at the general route of going melee using his animal companion (a wolf) to flank and using the majority of his magic to buff himself or other party members. The inexperienced player is set on playing a bard and I'm going to advise her to make the most of her pumped CHA to focus on social-based skills and enchantments. So, that leaves me. I'm going to have to fill the role of arcane blaster (as bards are sorely lacking in the boomy area and the druid will be focussing on melee) and one other - either skills-based (depending on the bard's selection), or healing based (depending again on how the druid and bard play). Basically, I've decided to play either a mystic theurge or an arcane trickster, because they're two classes I really want to try out. I'm fully aware that neither of these classes are uber-optimised, but I'm playing for fun and flavour as much as power. Still, once I've picked either class, I may as well try and make it as effective as I can to help out my party. My question, finally!!! is, given the other two party members, which of the arcane trickster and mystic theurge would be the best at filling the hole in the party's capabilities? Both will have stunted spell progression, that's a given, but I'm hoping to make up with either skills and sneak attack, or healing and buffs. Any advice/particular spells or progressions would be much appreciated, especially if you have experience playing either PrC. Thanks in advance!
j_gunder 03-04-07, 07:46 PM	Neither of the choices, as you said, are going to be very optimized for the role of blaster...that's not to say you can't do it anyways. I would go with the Arcane Trickster, likely. You lose out on clerical healing and buffs, but gain some great non-magical attack options and a great set of skills. Taking the practiced spellcaster feat will help make up for the caster levels you lose to rogue in order to qualify for the Arcane Trickster. I have never played one from level 1 on, but there is a really good article about the shortcomings of the Arcane Trickster on the boards here. I don't recommend it to try and sway you from your decision, but rather so that you can be aware of the problems you are going to run into. Both the bard and the druid can function as healers, albeit with limited ability...so you should be fine on that front. Your group will need a roguish skill-monkey, and you should fill that role well.
travellersside 03-04-07, 08:23 PM	Take the AT over the MT. The first and most obvious thing is that neither of the other characters will be particularly good at scouting, nor can they deal with locks and traps. These are both pretty important. There are tricks to get around the absence of these skills, but it's less effort to just take a build that can handle them properly. The choice between Mystic Theurge and Arcane Trickster is essentially the difference between taking a cleric and a rogue. Since both the bard and the druid will be able to easily cover most of the healing and restorative side of things, there's less need for a third source. Particularly since, as an Arcane Trickster, you should have a good UMD. Clerics also provide some good group buffs which you would lose out on, but since the bard has a good selection, as does your mage component, you won't be doing too badly. Also, since both you and the bard have UMD, you can use various other sources for those key spells. If you're a wizard, you can 'borrow' a cleric to scribe some scrolls - cleric provides the spells, while you provide everything else. It'll require UMD to use, but that shouldn't be a problem. The third reason to take a cleric is that they make good fighters. However, since your experienced player is taking a druid, that means that you'll have 2 decent fighters, thus requiring less help. All in all, there's no compelling reason to take a cleric component, but quite an advantage in taking rogue. Don't focus on facework - that's for the bard, obviously. Instead, focus on tricks - mess around with the enemy, abuse utility spells and use that high Int to plan ahead. With a smaller group than normal, you'll need that planning.
Jaxgaret 03-05-07, 12:11 AM	Your party already has enough healing potential with a Druid and a Bard, although more healing never really hurts. But of the two, your party will more likely need the AT's skills than the MT's healing. Might I suggest an alternate route, if you have access to Dungeonscape; make a Ranger-based gish build, using Dungeonscape's ability variants to give the Ranger Trapfinding. Alternatively, have the Bard take a level in Rogue and the Able Learner feat. And just go straight arcanist yourself. That would be optimal, really.
Stardust 03-05-07, 12:25 AM	Thanks for the advice, all. Unfortunately, to those who suggested non-core stuff, that's unavailable. As mentioned, the DM is new to the job and wants everything to be core-only so he doesn't have too much to deal with whilst getting to grips with the task. That said, It might well be a better idea to have the bard take a level in rogue to give some extra skills and sneak attack damage. Unfortunately able learner wont be available, though. Shame. On a positive note, the DM has said that I can play a Grey Elf (as it's in the monster manual and doesn't itself require knowledge of any additional rules beyond the stat adjustment). As such, I can pump dex and int pretty high at the expense of con and str (dumping cha and wis, which the bard and druid excel in respectively). This gives me a decent number of skill points, even as a wizard, meaning that I can keep MS, hide, disable device and open lock close to maxed out (within a rank or so) whilst throwing the odd spare skill point into the prereqs for AT. I guess it's just a matter of talking to the others in the party to figure out who's going to cover which roles exactly. Thanks for the responses!