Arcane Trickster/Archmage--2 questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Trickster/Archmage--2 questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mandemon
01-18-04, 07:17 PM I am considering the Arcane Trickster and Archmage Prcs for a Rogue/Wizard. I have two questions.

First, does sneak attack damage apply if attack is a melee touch attack such as Shocking Grasp? What about a ranged touch attack from within 30 feet, such as from Scorching Ray? And if your spell is targeting a creature, such as Mordenkainen's Sword , and when would you need to be within 30 feet in this case?

Second, is there any way to apply the Twin Ray or Twin Spell metamagic feats to the Arcane Fire supernatural ability? Would sneak attack damage apply? This would be great for fighting creatures with low touch attack ACs and high SR. I understand that a metamagic feat can be used permanently on a single spell-like ability by using a feat slot, but not a supernatural ability. I would not expect to be able to do this until at least epic levels, as a gray elf Rog 3/Wiz 5/Arcane Trickster 8/Archmage 4 does not gain any 9th-level spell slots until 20th character level (and qualify for Arcane Fire).
TheDarkestOfAngels
01-18-04, 07:58 PM sneak attack applies to any spell that a) involves a roll to hit AC and b) deals damage. Sorry, no sneak attack on your charm person.

Sneak attack only applies once per spell.
So, splitting a Fire orb into 10 smaller components will only yield the sneak attack damage once, no matter what. Same applies to metamagic'd feats, such as twin spell or split ray or chained spells or anything else I've neglected to mention.

If anyone sees my information as wrong or in need of correction, please notify me, because I'm currently using an arcane trickster in play myself at the moment.
Endless Dave
01-19-04, 01:15 PM TheDarkestOfAngels is correct, sneak attack applies to any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage (damage is defined as hit point damage, ability damage, or negative levels - in Tome and Blood, I think). That means you cannot sneak attack with Magic Missle, but you can with Ray of Frost (as long as all other sneak attack requirements are met).
Cin
01-20-04, 08:05 PM Would Sneak Attack damage apply to Telekinesis and the Telekinesis abilities of a Master of the Unseen Hand?
TheDarkestOfAngels
01-20-04, 11:20 PM Originally posted by Cin
Would Sneak Attack damage apply to Telekinesis and the Telekinesis abilities of a Master of the Unseen Hand?

I would say no, since it isn't the spell itself doing the attacking, rather, the trickster would be using the spell to use a sword (or whatever) to attack, which doesn't allow for precision.
coweringomega2
02-13-04, 08:21 PM Hello, I'm new here, so I'm a bit confused. I'd like a little clarification on the original question. Does the sneak attack apply to ANY spell that has to have a roll attempt? Even if the arcane trickster is more than 30' away? Is there somewhere official that actually says that? Reading the description, it doesn't even say anything about using spells with sneak attack.

Thanks
king_of_evil007
02-13-04, 11:27 PM I don't remember if sneak attack does work with spells, I never really thought about it, and I don't have my books with me to check. But assuming it does. . .
Originally posted by Mandemon
I am considering the Arcane Trickster and Archmage Prcs for a Rogue/Wizard. I have two questions.

First, does sneak attack damage apply if attack is a melee touch attack such as Shocking Grasp? What about a ranged touch attack from within 30 feet, such as from Scorching Ray? And if your spell is targeting a creature, such as Mordenkainen's Sword , and when would you need to be within 30 feet in this case?
For Shocking Grasp yes.
For Scorching Ray: If you're within 30 feet.
For Mordenkainen's Sword: Not sure. Does the spell summon a sword which attacks independantly? If so, then your sneak attack doesn't apply to the weapon.

Second, is there any way to apply the Twin Ray or Twin Spell metamagic feats to the Arcane Fire supernatural ability? Would sneak attack damage apply? This would be great for fighting creatures with low touch attack ACs and high SR. I understand that a metamagic feat can be used permanently on a single spell-like ability by using a feat slot, but not a supernatural ability. I would not expect to be able to do this until at least epic levels, as a gray elf Rog 3/Wiz 5/Arcane Trickster 8/Archmage 4 does not gain any 9th-level spell slots until 20th character level (and qualify for Arcane Fire).
Sadly, no. You can't apply metamagic feats to Arcane Fire, or any other ability that uses up spell slots (except spells, obviously)

Originally posted by Cin
Would Sneak Attack damage apply to Telekinesis and the Telekinesis abilities of a Master of the Unseen Hand?
For Telekinesis: Uhh, I don't think that spell causes damage, so no.
For the Master of the Unseen Hands's abilities, I have no idea, I"ve never heard of the class.

Originally posted by coweringomega2
Hello, I'm new here, so I'm a bit confused. I'd like a little clarification on the original question. Does the sneak attack apply to ANY spell that has to have a roll attempt? Even if the arcane trickster is more than 30' away? Is there somewhere official that actually says that? Reading the description, it doesn't even say anything about using spells with sneak attack.
Sneak attack only applies to spells that meet the following requirements:
a) Target is within 30 feet of caster
b) Target is unaware of the caster at the time of casting (and thus flat footed)
c) The spell requires a d20 roll, such as a ranged touch attack (doesn't count the roll for Spell Resistance)
d) The spell deals damage.
sparkster4242
02-15-04, 01:54 AM actually, c) should be 'is denied their dexterity bonus to armor class or is flanked (by the rogue)'. being flat-footed is one way to do this, but its not the only one.
coweringomega2
02-16-04, 05:21 PM OK, so basically, it's like a ranged attack, but the trickster is using a spell?

Thanks for the clarifications!
smrtgmp
02-17-04, 01:18 AM Originally posted by Cin
Would Sneak Attack damage apply to Telekinesis and the Telekinesis abilities of a Master of the Unseen Hand?

I would think it would work. If youve mastered telekinetic control over a weapon to the point that you can use a full attack with a BAB equal to your caster level (17th level caster would have BAB of +17/+12/+7/+2), I would think you could achieve the precision necessary to perform a sneak attack. I would say that you should be within 30ft, however. You shouldnt be able to sneak attack from farther away than anyone else. BTY, the master of the unseen hand works amazingly well with a psion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mandemon 01-18-04, 07:17 PM	I am considering the Arcane Trickster and Archmage Prcs for a Rogue/Wizard. I have two questions. First, does sneak attack damage apply if attack is a melee touch attack such as Shocking Grasp? What about a ranged touch attack from within 30 feet, such as from Scorching Ray? And if your spell is targeting a creature, such as Mordenkainen's Sword , and when would you need to be within 30 feet in this case? Second, is there any way to apply the Twin Ray or Twin Spell metamagic feats to the Arcane Fire supernatural ability? Would sneak attack damage apply? This would be great for fighting creatures with low touch attack ACs and high SR. I understand that a metamagic feat can be used permanently on a single spell-like ability by using a feat slot, but not a supernatural ability. I would not expect to be able to do this until at least epic levels, as a gray elf Rog 3/Wiz 5/Arcane Trickster 8/Archmage 4 does not gain any 9th-level spell slots until 20th character level (and qualify for Arcane Fire).
TheDarkestOfAngels 01-18-04, 07:58 PM	sneak attack applies to any spell that a) involves a roll to hit AC and b) deals damage. Sorry, no sneak attack on your charm person. Sneak attack only applies once per spell. So, splitting a Fire orb into 10 smaller components will only yield the sneak attack damage once, no matter what. Same applies to metamagic'd feats, such as twin spell or split ray or chained spells or anything else I've neglected to mention. If anyone sees my information as wrong or in need of correction, please notify me, because I'm currently using an arcane trickster in play myself at the moment.
Endless Dave 01-19-04, 01:15 PM	TheDarkestOfAngels is correct, sneak attack applies to any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage (damage is defined as hit point damage, ability damage, or negative levels - in Tome and Blood, I think). That means you cannot sneak attack with Magic Missle, but you can with Ray of Frost (as long as all other sneak attack requirements are met).
Cin 01-20-04, 08:05 PM	Would Sneak Attack damage apply to Telekinesis and the Telekinesis abilities of a Master of the Unseen Hand?
TheDarkestOfAngels 01-20-04, 11:20 PM	Originally posted by Cin Would Sneak Attack damage apply to Telekinesis and the Telekinesis abilities of a Master of the Unseen Hand? I would say no, since it isn't the spell itself doing the attacking, rather, the trickster would be using the spell to use a sword (or whatever) to attack, which doesn't allow for precision.
coweringomega2 02-13-04, 08:21 PM	Hello, I'm new here, so I'm a bit confused. I'd like a little clarification on the original question. Does the sneak attack apply to ANY spell that has to have a roll attempt? Even if the arcane trickster is more than 30' away? Is there somewhere official that actually says that? Reading the description, it doesn't even say anything about using spells with sneak attack. Thanks
king_of_evil007 02-13-04, 11:27 PM	I don't remember if sneak attack does work with spells, I never really thought about it, and I don't have my books with me to check. But assuming it does. . . Originally posted by Mandemon I am considering the Arcane Trickster and Archmage Prcs for a Rogue/Wizard. I have two questions. First, does sneak attack damage apply if attack is a melee touch attack such as Shocking Grasp? What about a ranged touch attack from within 30 feet, such as from Scorching Ray? And if your spell is targeting a creature, such as Mordenkainen's Sword , and when would you need to be within 30 feet in this case? For Shocking Grasp yes. For Scorching Ray: If you're within 30 feet. For Mordenkainen's Sword: Not sure. Does the spell summon a sword which attacks independantly? If so, then your sneak attack doesn't apply to the weapon. Second, is there any way to apply the Twin Ray or Twin Spell metamagic feats to the Arcane Fire supernatural ability? Would sneak attack damage apply? This would be great for fighting creatures with low touch attack ACs and high SR. I understand that a metamagic feat can be used permanently on a single spell-like ability by using a feat slot, but not a supernatural ability. I would not expect to be able to do this until at least epic levels, as a gray elf Rog 3/Wiz 5/Arcane Trickster 8/Archmage 4 does not gain any 9th-level spell slots until 20th character level (and qualify for Arcane Fire). Sadly, no. You can't apply metamagic feats to Arcane Fire, or any other ability that uses up spell slots (except spells, obviously) Originally posted by Cin Would Sneak Attack damage apply to Telekinesis and the Telekinesis abilities of a Master of the Unseen Hand? For Telekinesis: Uhh, I don't think that spell causes damage, so no. For the Master of the Unseen Hands's abilities, I have no idea, I"ve never heard of the class. Originally posted by coweringomega2 Hello, I'm new here, so I'm a bit confused. I'd like a little clarification on the original question. Does the sneak attack apply to ANY spell that has to have a roll attempt? Even if the arcane trickster is more than 30' away? Is there somewhere official that actually says that? Reading the description, it doesn't even say anything about using spells with sneak attack. Sneak attack only applies to spells that meet the following requirements: a) Target is within 30 feet of caster b) Target is unaware of the caster at the time of casting (and thus flat footed) c) The spell requires a d20 roll, such as a ranged touch attack (doesn't count the roll for Spell Resistance) d) The spell deals damage.
sparkster4242 02-15-04, 01:54 AM	actually, c) should be 'is denied their dexterity bonus to armor class or is flanked (by the rogue)'. being flat-footed is one way to do this, but its not the only one.
coweringomega2 02-16-04, 05:21 PM	OK, so basically, it's like a ranged attack, but the trickster is using a spell? Thanks for the clarifications!
smrtgmp 02-17-04, 01:18 AM	Originally posted by Cin Would Sneak Attack damage apply to Telekinesis and the Telekinesis abilities of a Master of the Unseen Hand? I would think it would work. If youve mastered telekinetic control over a weapon to the point that you can use a full attack with a BAB equal to your caster level (17th level caster would have BAB of +17/+12/+7/+2), I would think you could achieve the precision necessary to perform a sneak attack. I would say that you should be within 30ft, however. You shouldnt be able to sneak attack from farther away than anyone else. BTY, the master of the unseen hand works amazingly well with a psion.