Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kuraito 07-17-05, 03:33 PM	I imagine this is an old argument, but is it just me but is it the Arcane seems like a moot point now a days? Well Sorcerer and Wizard really. They don't seem to have any real strength anymore at least not something that isn't done easier or better by someone else. Heres my thoughts. (Note: When I say Arcane I'm refering to Wizard and Sorcerer, Divine I mean Clerics and Druid and Psonics I mean Psion and Wilder). 1. Wizards as Trouble shooters. Not really great as clerics fit the support role better and Artifcers make wonderful trouble shooters. Overall, being a trouble shooter requires lots of money spent on scrolls. In that instance Artificers and Warlocks are also VERY good at this, in fact better as warlocks can use Divine spells and Artificers craft for less. 2. Sorcerers as cannons: Psionics and Warmages. nuff said. 3. Arcanes "Stamina". Divine casters get more or slightly less spells per day, as well as better BAB, HP and Armor so they make decent secondary combatants if it comes down to it. Psionics, well the Warlock class was based on the following principle, A 5th level caster gets enough spells per day to last him the alloted encounters. After that, its more about a Spellcasters impact per round then Day long durability as they have more then enough spells to go the day. In this area, the Psion kicks the CRAP out of arcane as there average round is better. At 20th level a Psionic can go all out 17 times a day, More then enough to go the 3-5 encounters if the rest of the party carries its own weight, and even if not, the resources you saved the rest of the party can be brought into play. Also, Psionics don't have to go all out every round, If the enemies weakned fire a half powered shot or let the other party members finish it. 4. Versitility. Arcanes overall spell pool is decent, but sorcerers are limited to spells they know and Wizards have to spend quite a chunk of change and a lot of effort to get a good spellbook. Divine has there whole spell list avalible for preperation. Psonics do have a short list of powers, but often a single power is worth 4 or 5 spells. I mean, energy ray can last a Psionic a long time. Wilders do hurt for the powers but make up for it with the fact there per round impact is THE highest in the game. Psions get plenty of powers and they beat out everyone else. 5. Side benifits. Divine gets religion, animals, community, free enemies, plot hooks, a church for support, all the things that come with religion. They also get some sweet melee ability through spells and wild shape. Arcane gets pointy hats, stupid beards, silly robes, big towers, little animals and big books. Oh and the fun of being a social out cast. Psoniics get there own skills, feats (Really frickin good feats), Psonic focus and a psicrystal (which is WAY better then a familar in almost every way). 6. SR and other defenses (Energy resist, DCs, ect.). Arcane.....spell penetration, focus and energy admixture? Divine, buff and smash, buff others let them smash, heal, many options. Psionics, Crystal shard and there kin, being able to choose element and DCs going up the more points you spend (which also raises the poiwers effects). I prolly have more but i'm getting sleepy. Thats the major stuff I think. I know people still play Wizards and Sorcerers, hell I still do. I just say they're not up to snuff anymore, they don't do anything the best anymore. DISCLAMER: This is my opinion formed from my experience and reading. I have provided evidence to support my claims, feel free to agree or disagree, but please don't insult me or others who post here for there opinions. I know how easy it is to lose your temper and that this is a touchy subject, but opinions are just that, opinions, formed from a persons point of veiw. This happens to be mine and I'm interested in others. Theres no problem in putting forth examples or reason, or even debating, just respect others while you do it.
Nuntius128 07-17-05, 04:04 PM	While I agree that you've made some decent arguements, I have to say that the game really has taken a sharp nosedive when nobody roleplays for just plain fun anymore. So they aren't that powerful, yeah, its been said. But they fulfill a specific role in classical fantasy that would be impossible just to pave over and ignore. That's why Arcane casters are still around, and why people still play them.
cowdragon 07-17-05, 04:31 PM	Decent points, however I have to disagree. If my wife doesn't play in one of our campaigns then my character is the only arcane caster...usually the only caster period!!!! I play a sorcerer and usually need utility, blasting, and buffing. It's rough but it can be done. A warmage would suck at this role. A cleric would simply be a walking band-aid. A wizard would be good at it but doesn't get enough castings/day...also, I hate vancian style casting...just me though. The ranger in our group will usually get a couple cure lights/day but at level 4 or 5, and it's not enough. My sorc is it. We don't care for psionics, warlocks would suck at any of the needed roles. Of course this is my personal experience, so it will differ for everyone here probably. And yes, we play most of our campaigns without healing spells!!! It's ...different, but no less fun. The Cowdragon :mage:
Drake_the_Windseeker 07-17-05, 05:05 PM	First off, why are you insulting the pointy hats? Whatever have they done to you? They give us the ability to talk to Halflings in fatherly tones while stroking our obscenely long beards. Ok, I'm off my Gandalf trip now. But seriously, folks: I'm not so sure about the stuffy, book-whoring Wizards, but Sorcerers aren't that bad. If you think up a good story, and plan out a good Prestige Class growth, you can come up with a very interesting character. Perhaps not the MOST effective, but interesting. The Complete Books basically made classes that followed steriotypes, such as the Warlock and the Ninja. Both of those can be made, if not as effectively, with Sorcerers and Rogues, if given certain spells, skills or feats. ... I'm not sure what to make of Psionics, and I'm not about to start talking about them, 'cause quite frankly, I haven't read anything about them. Not interested. Divine spellcasters, while effective, seem too preachy. Either you're a Druid, and you're forbidding your Fighter from cutting down firewood in the freezing cold, or you're the servant of some God of Light, who keeps saying "Praise Light-God!" and annoying the hell out of the interesting characters. So, in short, effectiveness is one thing, interesting is another. You decide.
Kuraito 07-17-05, 05:36 PM	I do agree that Arcane can still be fun to play, its just kind of annoying that everyone can do what you do but better if they really wanted to try. Also, interesting characters can still hurt. For example, I play a Swashbuckler/Duelist in a Party with a Hexblade/psychic rogue/pyro, spirit shamen and a sorcerer and I'm just pathetic. As much of a blast as he is to play, I just blow so much in combat by comparison which takes the fun out of it. First off, why are you insulting the pointy hats? Whatever have they done to you? They give us the ability to talk to Halflings in fatherly tones while stroking our obscenely long beards. Ok, I'm off my Gandalf trip now. :rofl: I gotta remember that one.
Particle 07-17-05, 05:56 PM	@Drake_the_Windseeker: I just found the first quote for my signature, if you dont mind. @Psioniks: I dont like them that much. Not because I think they are broken, but because I think they dont fit my image of a High Fantasy World. So I wont adress to them, I never bothered reading the book. ok, I wont adress Artificers too,as I never read Eberron fully, dont like that too. So, Artificer is for me a Eberron only class, and held for very powerfull by many, fine. Beside that, I think Wizards still are very versatile in there field of expertise. How will cst all the nice spells? A Cleric focused on fithging himself, that will want to buff himself too? He lacks some nice spells a Wizard has. Who can cast a Rope Trick? Very usefull spell from lvl 6 on(at lvl 6, the duration is long enough to make it worth. Good spell earlier, if extended). Yes, Wizs have to spend a lot of money to become good, but others have to do that do. There may be fields where Wizards are superceded by specialists. But i like a Generalist more, that is good enough at anything he he needs to do: Magic. Who cares that a Warlock can blast one million times a day? Can he cast a web or something that helps the whole group in defeating the opponent? Can he cast Sleep? Charm Person? No, there are spells that make Wiz/Sorcs unique, and that makes them viable. Blasting is not everything about a Wiz, if you think that, yes then others could do better. Plus: Mages have the best image imo: yes, I can be the cool guy that tosses around Fireball. That lures beginners, not some Druid, or some strange Psion who needs an explanation about what he actually is before everyybody knows it. but everybody knows about Mages. And Clerics have a really strange image in DnD. I never saw them as spelltossing melee Fighters. But they are portrayed that way in DND....
Pax 07-17-05, 06:01 PM	They don't seem to have any real strength anymore at least not something that isn't done easier or better by someone else. Really, now. Want to try your theory out in practise? I'll even tell you what I'm going to build: a summoner. Wizard (Conjuror), 10 levels. Alienist, 10 levels. Using the Rapid Summons variant for Conjurors, as detailed in Unearthed Arcana; also the Enhanced Summons variant, and Custom Summon List option - both from the same source. Opposed schools are Evocation and Illusion. Yes, I said evocation - my "damage spells" tend to come with hitpoints and threatened areas. ^_^ Using a Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken .... I can get 2d3 creatures from the SM8 list, with the Pseudonatural template applied. In a single round. And still have a Move action left to me. 1. Wizards as Trouble shooters. Not really great as clerics fit the support role better and Artifcers make wonderful trouble shooters. Neither class has ready, guaranteed access to spells like Knock, Arcane Lock, and the like. Overall, being a trouble shooter requires lots of money spent on scrolls. SL x CL x 25gp is "a lot of money" ...? Or better, SL x CL x (12gp, 5sp, 1XP) ...? In that instance Artificers and Warlocks are also VERY good at this, in fact better as warlocks can use Divine spells and Artificers craft for less. Artificers do have a craft pool, and that is a help - but it's a savings in terms of XP only, not GP. But if they're allowed ... you do realise that the feats which reduce GP and XP costs for item crafting are EVERY bit as available to Wizards (etc) as to Artificers, right? 2. Sorcerers as cannons: Psionics and Warmages. nuff said. Psions aren't that much better at being cannons than sorcerors, and aren't core - not even CLOSE to it. Warmages haven't the option to be much OTHER than cannons. 4. Versitility. Arcanes overall spell pool is decent, but sorcerers are limited to spells they know ... or have in Wand, Staff, Septer, and Scroll form ... and Wizards have to spend quite a chunk of change and a lot of effort to get a good spellbook. 100gp/spell level to scribe spells beyond your free-for-levelling-up spells. 50gp/spell level for copy-and-scribe access from another wizard or guild. A BBB cuts the scribing cost out of the equation entirely (and you break even in 63 or 125 spell levels, depending on wether or not you make it yourself). The Geometer class reduces all spells, regardless of level, to a single page - seriously saving you money when it comes to higher-level spells. 5. Side benifits. Divine gets religion, animals, community, free enemies, plot hooks, a church for support, all the things that come with religion. Wizards get scholae, familiars, peers, free enemies, plot hooks, a guild for support, and all the things that come with being oneof the educated elite. They also get some sweet melee ability through spells and wild shape. And the arcanists get the same, or better, via spells and Shapechange. I had a high-level Wizard once, in 3.0 rules, who set up a Chain Contingency to trigger Tenser's Transformation, Stone Body, and Fly, the moment he cast Thunderlance on himself. I considered it his "the fecal wastes have officially hit the air-circulation device" plan. Arcane gets pointy hats, depends on their (lack of) fashion sense. stupid beards, Funny; the last arcanist Ip[layed for any length of time was barely fifteen years old (Sorceror, mind), and no, he wasn't shaving yet. Not even on a weekly basis. silly robes, Said boy-sorceror wore pants and shirt, thanks. big towers, And such towers they can BE. Break out the Stronhold builder's Guide, boys - instant plane-shifting, flying, nigh-indestructible Tower O' Doom. little animals Yeah, I suppose a Size LArge "Blade Guardian" construct with 24HD is a "little animal". (Guardian Familiars, CW pp119-121). So is a Lantern Archon (BoED, feat "Celestial Familiar"), I suppose. Turning back to Complete Warrior, I guess "little animal" is still an apt description for a Hippogriff or Winter Wolf, too. Oh and the fun of being a social out cast. If that's how one wants to play them, yes. My wee boy-sorceror was hardly a social outcast. [Psionics] get there own skills, ... which are little mroe than renamed versions of Spellcraft and Use Magic Device. The two are even interchangeable under the default rules, in fact. feats (Really frickin good feats), Arcane has some of those. Spell Thematics, my favorite feat ever, among them. Psonic focus That's a drawback, not an advantage. they get that, because there are so many things that they have to spend it on. Like every single metapsionic feat in existance. and a psicrystal (which is WAY better then a familar in almost every way). ... but they don't get it for free; instead, they have to spend a feat on it. 6. SR and other defenses (Energy resist, DCs, ect.). Arcane.....spell penetration, focus and energy admixture? Orb spells - no SR. Save spells - so what? I can fireball you from as much as a quarter-mile away; it's hard for a sword-swinger to hit back, at THOSE distances.
A Man In Black 07-17-05, 06:14 PM	Why? Flight, invisibility, the Polymorph chain, better ranged save-or-dies, the ability to fill slots on the fly as a prep caster, the Transformation spells, and better spellcasting prestige classes. Try bringing this up on the CO board and see how well it flies. I'm curious to see what kind of response you'd get.
beaver1024 07-17-05, 10:43 PM	You see, the "improved" 3.5 is all about options. This include the options not to play wiz/sorcs in the party and do just as well if not better. On the other hand we still don't have the option of not playing a cleric/druid type character in the party. However we do have the option of replacing the fighter and wiz/sorc with clerics/druids as clercs/druids are better than fighter than fighters, better wizard than wizards and better sorcerers than sorcerers. You need to get with the program and make use of your options of clerics/druids and clerics/druids.
Ranix 07-18-05, 12:02 AM	Pax: nice try. I'm a level 7 human Psion, Egoist. I take the feats Metamorphic Transfer, Overchannel, Extra Power: Astral Construct, and Boost Construct. I metamorphose into a Choker, gain it's 3.0 Haste ability, and summon a construct better than anything from any other summon list, nevermind other core ones. Next round I blast something, then summon something else. At level 8 I metamorphose into a pyrohydra and breathe 30d6 damage on you. Honestly, nobody cares what a buffed-out wizard can do at 20. A psion or almost any other class is more effective mechanically with far less effort than any but the most tricked-out wizard. Psions can do this kind of thing without spending any money, or taking any prestige classes. Clerics can fight plenty fine with just Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell or Divine Metamagic: Rapid Spell for melee or support, respectively. No cashflow necessary. Even fighters can be effective enough with a spiked chain, power attack, and improved trip these days. Wizards are a little on the shafted end if you ask me. Forget sorcerers, who suck totally.
TyraaloftheFist 07-18-05, 12:42 AM	1:Troubleshooting...Wizards aren't all that bad at it. While Artificers might be able to fix broken objects, make new ones, that sort of thing a bit easier, and clerics can do the healing thing and buff pretty well, the Artificer can't do directly to enemies, which could be considered a form of trouble...and the cleric is sadly limited in their ability to shoot things from a really long distance away, usually. Artificers, as far as I can remember, just plain can't do the whole distance thing too well, although they're a Warforged's best friend. They can certainly create a lot of wands and such, but the Wizard can drop a Wail of the Banshee, a Fireball...several painful spells, to say the least...on the Artificer while he's pulling them out. And I don't think Artificer-man can Time Stop, set up a bunch of Delayed Blast Fireballs, and teleport away by the time the spell's over. Of course, I'm not currently looking at the Eberron Campaign Setting, but meh. 2: Psionic characters can certainly do a bit more nasty stuff than a Sorcerer of equal level, usually...but then, most DMs I know forbid psionics in their games because they consider them overpowered. Warmages can't do much BUT destroy things; that's what War usually revolves around: Destroying things and people to get other things and people. I really can't think up a reason why Psions couldn't beat up on most Sorcerers, unfortunately...but the Wizard could probably prove a bit more versatile than expected and deflect the brunt of the Psion's attacks before dropping a Finger of Death on the guy while he tries to get his psionic focus back after using it on a metapsionics feat. 3:The cleric, while they might be able to go toe-to-toe with many monsters, couldn't really do a whole lot against a group of gnolls at fifth level while the Wizard drops a Fireball on them. It's not the fact that clerics have so much more physical stamina; it's how much more damage a Wizard could do in a spell-battle at most levels. Psionics...they get, in my opinion, to be overpowered when checked against the majority of the classes, and I think I'll just leave that alone for now. 4:Well, yes, the clerics get their whole level of spells given to them, psionics can keep using 1st-level spells almost into the epic levels or at least to tenth and eleventh, wilders can do a whole lot of stuff in a single round...but clerics can't drop Fireballs or Wails of the Banshee when the battle is just beginning and they need to do a lot of damage quick. Psions can't learn from scrolls, and they have to spend extra power points to increase the power of their spells, effectively raising it a level while the wizard and sorcerer could drop a 10d6 fireball on a psion who keeps launching 10d6 energy rays. And that only using a third-level spell slot. Wilders...they aren't versatile. I'm surprised you didn't mention them specifically in the Cannon section...they get few powers, but can do a whole lot in a round, as already mentioned...but can they really afford to diversify? A given wilder won't have, most likely, the versatility of a wizard of equal level...they just don't get enough powers to be able to. 5: Yes...but the cleric, if they preach too much, gets irritating. Wizards get pretty much everything you've mentioned in the cleric section, with the possible exception of the church and religion. Wizards...what, is magic like Rogaine for the chin? You make it sound like they all have beards...so the apprentice magic-user should have a beard regardless of age. Robes...they aren't necessary. You could be Saburan, the Naked Mage who lacks any hair or hat whatsoever! Now those would be some silly feggin' robeses. The big book...well, it's good for whacking people with, if all else fails. And don't diss the kittens. The kitten familiars are cute, fluffy, loveable, and sociopathic...what more do you need?...besides the fact that they might also produce more kittens. That could be a problem. Wizards shouldn't NEED melee capability; they should be destroying enemies from sixty feet in the air with delayed blast fireballs, power words, and various other nasty toys. Thus, the fact that the most powerful wizards in D&D don't bother with the choppy-slashy-bashy; they go for the burny-zapping-killy. Psionics have to waste an extra round on their metapsionics feats, which never seem worth it to me...and the psionics feats are, for the most part, simply renamed, partially remechanicked metamagic feats. Sure, they get a couple new skills, but only two. 6:Arcane can make big iron walls and drop them on things. They can use spells to destroy support structures and drop things to the nearest hard surface located on the negative side of the Y-axis. They can also buff...just not quite as well. Oh...and they can do Prismatic Walls. Drop one of those in the proper place, and your enemy is usually screweded. Painfully, utterly...screweded. Really, it depends on the imaginativity of the player on this particular front...not all attacks need be head-on. So what if they ain't the best...they're fun anyway. Especially the nutty ones, like our friend Saburan here...wait a moment...Sabu, get some pants on, at least! Ahem...as I said, they're fun. Oh...Sab says he wants to ask you something: "Ever felt like running naked through a camp of orcs, screaming, dropping a Time Stop, several Delayed Blast Fireballs, and Teleport-without-erroring out?"...don't ask...for the love of mercy, don't ask. If I have insulted or wronged anyone, then I apologize. Sorry in advance if you happen to be one such being.
Manyfist 07-18-05, 01:07 AM	@Psioniks: I dont like them that much. Not because I think they are broken, but because I think they dont fit my image of a High Fantasy World. So I wont adress to them, I never bothered reading the book. ok, I wont adress Artificers too,as I never read Eberron fully, dont like that too. So, Artificer is for me a Eberron only class, and held for very powerfull by many, fine. A.) It's Psionics, spell it right. B.) How doesn't it fit? In mythology mages didn't carry around spell componets or use spell slots, in fact they are more Psionic than Magical. C.) Read Eberron closely, and also read XPH it's alot better than magic. There may be fields where Wizards are superceded by specialists. But i like a Generalist more, that is good enough at anything he he needs to do: Magic. Who cares that a Warlock can blast one million times a day? Can he cast a web or something that helps the whole group in defeating the opponent? Can he cast Sleep? Charm Person? No, there are spells that make Wiz/Sorcs unique, and that makes them viable. Blasting is not everything about a Wiz, if you think that, yes then others could do better. Warlock has more than balsting. Choosing the correct Incovations he can cast Charm, also Shatter, and a few others. with 11 Incovations he's limited though. Warlocks don't always have to blast, with a Charm at will you can Charm entire cities. ;) Plus: Mages have the best image imo: yes, I can be the cool guy that tosses around Fireball. That lures beginners, not some Druid, or some strange Psion who needs an explanation about what he actually is before everyybody knows it. but everybody knows about Mages. And Clerics have a really strange image in DnD. I never saw them as spelltossing melee Fighters. But they are portrayed that way in DND.... A Cleric can be a Cool guy with armor casting Fireballs, a Druid can shoot off seeds of Fire. Hmm psion, Psychic is the only word you need to say and people are going to go, OH! A Psychic, I want to play one. I never had to explain even to Noobs what a psion is. I also think that Clerics are overpowered. D&D had Psionics since 1 ed. so it's a Classic D&D thing also DarkSun rocks. Note: When I say Arcane I'm refering to Wizard and Sorcerer, Divine I mean Clerics and Druid and Psonics I mean Psion and Wilder Tsk Tsk, you should include all. Arcane; Hexblade, Wujen, Warlock, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard. Divine: Spirit Shaman, Cleic, Favorite Soul, Druid, One other. Psionics: Psion, Wilder, Psychic Warrior, and Soulknife. :cool: In that instance Artificers and Warlocks are also VERY good at this, in fact better as warlocks can use Divine spells and Artificers craft for less. Warlock can't use Divine Spells. Artificer can use both because they just craft items. 2. Sorcerers as cannons: Psionics and Warmages. nuff said. Warmages ok but that's all they can do. Psionics have certin # of PP and sure they can go nova for a battle but once you're Pp are gone you can't do anything more than a Commoner can. 3. Arcanes "Stamina". Divine casters get more or slightly less spells per day, as well as better BAB, HP and Armor so they make decent secondary combatants if it comes down to it. Psionics, well the Warlock class was based on the following principle, A 5th level caster gets enough spells per day to last him the alloted encounters. After that, its more about a Spellcasters impact per round then Day long durability as they have more then enough spells to go the day. In this area, the Psion kicks the CRAP out of arcane as there average round is better. At 20th level a Psionic can go all out 17 times a day, More then enough to go the 3-5 encounters if the rest of the party carries its own weight, and even if not, the resources you saved the rest of the party can be brought into play. Also, Psionics don't have to go all out every round, If the enemies weakned fire a half powered shot or let the other party members finish it. Divine is way overpowered compared to the rest. Psionics have Limited # of PP and as I said above. Warlocks are ment to go 24/7/365 yet they give up power for doing so. At lvl 20 a Psion can NOT go all out 17 X a Day. You realize each power is taking 20pp out of his reserves. 343 pp with out any extra PP, with an average of 3 Encounters a Day, fully agumenting powers is very costly. And with out agumenting you're worthless. Also it's one the best qualities of psionics is to choose the power lvl of his power. Psoniics get there own skills, feats (Really frickin good feats), Psonic focus and a psicrystal (which is WAY better then a familar in almost every way). Psionics* yeah they get their own skills a wooping 5 Skills! :eek: Psionic Focus is a Curse, and Psicrystals are ment to be way better. Why? They have to get one through a Feat. 6. SR and other defenses (Energy resist, DCs, ect.). Arcane.....spell penetration, focus and energy admixture? Divine, buff and smash, buff others let them smash, heal, many options. Psionics, Crystal shard and there kin, being able to choose element and DCs going up the more points you spend (which also raises the poiwers effects). Psionics are power though the mind so they have a great control of the powers, and you can't spend more PP than your class lvl don't forget that. A lvl 10 Psion/10 Wizard, can only spend 10 pp. And Clerics and Druids I always deemed as overpowering any how. ;)
Ranix 07-18-05, 03:09 AM	I wonder why I even bother posting in dead-end threads like this. YHBT
Pax 07-18-05, 07:06 AM	I'm a level 7 human Psion, Egoist. I take the feats Metamorphic Transfer, Overchannel, Extra Power: Astral Construct, and Boost Construct. I metamorphose into a Choker, gain it's 3.0 Haste ability, and summon a construct better than anything from any other summon list, nevermind other core ones. Next round I blast something, then summon something else. You don't get a next round. If you lost initiative, you provoked AoOs for manifesting a power. If you won, you still have two to six creatures appear around you during the first round. Four to ten, if I go down to the SM7 list. Oh, and they all get a full round of activity right away, so you take full attacks frome ach one in the first round, too. Next round, you blast ONE thing (probably not killing it), and summon ONE more creature. I, in turn, would throw out another pair of summoning spells, and get anywhere from two to ten more creatures on the board. At this point, it's you and two friends, against me and four to twenty friends. And don't forget, they're all Pseudonatural. Each one can gain the benefits of True Strike for one of it's attacks, once per day. Alternately - one Mordenkainen's Disjunction in the second round, and you're back to naked-self nothing (as well as probably down at least a few magic/psionic items), and STILL surrounded by two to ten creatures (since the MDJ's caster's spells are unaffected). And, of course, there's always this: simple, plain Invisibility. Since I'd only be summoning stuff, I'd never void that simple second-level spell. Add a Ghostform, and blindsight won't work either. Contingencies are wonderful things - especially the item varieties. At level 8 I metamorphose into a pyrohydra and breathe 30d6 damage on you. If you can find me. See above. Honestly, nobody cares what a buffed-out wizard can do at 20. A psion or almost any other class is more effective mechanically with far less effort than any but the most tricked-out wizard. That example was hardly buffed or tricked out. It was a bare-bones foundation for a build. Psions can do this kind of thing without spending any money, or taking any prestige classes. *shrug* Wizards can too, but since I chose a summoner-of-monsters, Alienist was a no-brainer choice: simply didn't make sense NOT to. Clerics can fight plenty fine with just Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell And at a cost of 6 turn attempts to use it once, well, I daresay it'll only GET used once. or Divine Metamagic: Rapid Spell for melee or support, respectively. Eh, rapid spell would only be useful for long-casting-time spells. No cashflow necessary. Even fighters can be effective enough with a spiked chain, power attack, and improved trip these days. Flying. Immune to trip. Point was? Wizards are a little on the shafted end if you ask me. Forget sorcerers, who suck totally. You're welcome to your opinion, but my experience in arenas is much the opposite: the Wizards tend to rule the roost. If you disagree - fine. Come over to "Endless War" (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=10202&gn=DnD+3.5+(Gestalt):+Endless+War), in the Arena category on RPOL.net; you and I can test out your theory of "arcanists are all weaklings". I'll build a pure-arcanist character, you build whatever else you like, without ANY arcane class(es). Best two out of three, and we'll see who's got the upper hand then.
Nyferto 07-18-05, 07:36 AM	An 8th level Egoist can't transform into a Pyrohydra, your capped by manifester level. Not only that but you never gain the Supernatural abilities or Extraordinary qualites of the creature - just like Polymorph. So no you can't do that anyway, nore can a 7th level Egoist. Strangely though, PAO does more and worse sooner for a Wiz/Sorc and I don't see a Psionic varient. Strange that, Arcane casters seem to retain a niche no matter what others do. Whilst I can't really comment on the effectiveness of Psionic Blasters, but Warmages? Tell me, a Warmage vs a Wizard/Sorc, one uses exclusive Blasting spells, the other has Greater Blink - that's practically all he needs to kick your tactics in. Not only that, but Sorcs can be blasters and something else, whilst Warmages don't get much else. Note that Warmages are arcane as well, though I don't know how a list of Arcane classes somehow missed the Bard (twice in one thread). I don't know why you bothered mentioning "Cleric buff and smash" against SR opponents, it's not like any of that will mean anything against a ranged opponent, or that all Clerics that try it will actually have a decent melee/ranged ability, or that it won't come at some horrible expense in the first place. I mean seriously, don't underestimate the combinations and threats an Arcane Caster can come up with. Fireseeds is a very poor offensive spell, it has one nice aspect - but it's still not that good, and I've never seen a Cleric cast Fireball. Anyway, no point making a non-core comparison when you ignore the non-core around you.
Zorminster 07-18-05, 08:36 AM	100gp/spell level to scribe spells beyond your free-for-levelling-up spells. 50gp/spell level for copy-and-scribe access from another wizard or guild. A BBB cuts the scribing cost out of the equation entirely (and you break even in 63 or 125 spell levels, depending on wether or not you make it yourself). Whats a BBB? And where do i find this item/feat/uber figment of imagination (no sarcasm, just genuinely wanna know where to find it :) ) If that's how one wants to play them, yes. My wee boy-sorceror was hardly a social outcast. Erm, try reading the class discription. It says that sorcerors manifest their power during puberty and can't control it at first. As such, their dwellings usually experience odd lights, sounds, explosions etc and as a result they are ostracised and even feared. It would be a VERY RARE case to find a non-outcast sorceror imo. ... which are little mroe than renamed versions of Spellcraft and Use Magic Device. The two are even interchangeable under the default rules, in fact. which begs a question from me- do wizards and sorcerors not inately know how to use magic items and wands and such? Or do we have to take the freaking skill ranks in a cc skill to do so? If we've got to take ranks in it that begs another question- why do bards and rogues know better how to use these items than the class that creates them? Orb spells - no SR. by SR do you mean spell resistance? /me still new to forums and 3.5 Save spells - so what? I can fireball you from as much as a quarter-mile away; it's hard for a sword-swinger to hit back, at THOSE distances. Ah! Someone of like mind who throws fireballs as far as possible (after scrying to make sure i want them dead of course)
quetzyl 07-18-05, 08:50 AM	It is a magical spellbook whioch costs nothing to copy spells into. It's in the DMG. cheers, quetzyl
q'afuu 07-18-05, 09:33 AM	At 20th level a Psionic can go all out 17 times a day, More then enough to go the 3-5 encounters if the rest of the party carries its own weight, and even if not, the resources you saved the rest of the party can be brought into play. Please define 'all out'. Manifesting a 9th level power 17 times will take about 2/3 of a 20th level psion's power points, without augmenting anything, and a lot of these powers cost XP as well. With augmenting, he'll run out of PPs well before his 17th manifestation of the day.
HorizonWalker 07-18-05, 10:29 AM	Someone mentioned Warlocks don't get Divine spells. Actually, a Warlock can use their Imbue Item ability to create Divine Scrolls, but the DC of the UMD check is 25+spell level, as opposed to 15+spell level for Divine. As for Psionics not being able to get the powers of the things they change into; Metamorphic Transfer (Psionic) You can gain the supernatural abilities of a metamorphed form. Prerequisites: Wis 13, manifester level 5th. Benefit: each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphosis power, you gain one of the form's supernatural abilities, if it has any. You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit on uses. For instance, if you gain a dragon breath weapon, you can use that ability only three times per day before losing access to that ability for the day (you are still subject to other restrictions on the use of the ability. For example, after you use a dragon's breath weapon, you can't use it again for 1d4 rounds). The save DC to resist the supernatural ability gained through metamorphic transfer is 10+ your charisma modifer + 1/2 your hit dice. Special: you can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you can gain one additional supernatural ability. -from the XPH. And I thought I saw something about AoO's for using powers...um...psionic characters can manifest powers defensively just like you can cast spells on the defensive. Now that that's all cleared up, I think they should just toss out the differences between Arcane and Divine spells. For example, take Somatic components. Every time I turn around, I see Arcane types using Light Armor these days, and some even using Medium or Heavy Armor! Almost every non-PrC Arcane spell user these days has the ability to cast in armor. I'm actually wondering why we have Arcane Spell Failure in the game at all. I think the Wizard and especially the Sorcerer could use an upgrade that doesn't involve some new spell or Feat (we only get so many feats, you know). I realize that their only special ability (barring Familiars or possible bonus Feats) are their spells, but most other pure spell users manage to scrape together a few special abilities here and there, which add a little spice to those classes. I don't see why the Wizard and Sorcerer remain "spells on legs" when the game designers seem perfectly justified adding armor use, knowledge of your entire spell list, better base attack, hit die, saves, special abilities, and class abilities to other types of spell-slingers. I mean, these guys are supposed to be A #1 when it comes to flashy, dynamic magic that impresses the hell out of the simple, common folk, and drives your DM up the wall. That's great, but they've gotten a lot of competition in 3.5, and the new guys can do other things too. (Well ok, there's the UA Battle Sorcerer, but they're STILL a little behind the Wilder).
Zorminster 07-18-05, 10:51 AM	many thanks quet! /me thinks i need to get a DMG so i have a listing of super happy fun magical items :)
Kuraito 07-18-05, 11:10 AM	Ok, let me explain this once. At 20th level you have 343 PP minimum. you can augment up to 20 pps per power. 343/20= 17 with 3 remaining. That means you get 17 fully powered rounds, your Stats prolly give you another 2 or 3 rounds. Everyone clear? Also, even with the cap of your level being the max PP you can spend, your average round for the day is better as your last shot is just as good as your first while spellcasters go into lower spell levels. I havn't really heard anything to disprove this. Also, I hear alot about "Long distance Fireballs" well, I have two words, Energy Missle. You get to choose your element, the DCs are higher, you do more damage (or get around energy resist period, your choice), wait the distance is only medium...oh well :) . Really, the psion says to the wizard "Anything you can do, I can do better." Summoner? Astral Construct and Wilder, BAM, done. Better yet, I didn't use a power slot for it thanks to expanded knowlage, leaving my powers known for buffs and blasting and trouble shooting (Yea, right). Psions can do it to, but it won't be as pronounced.
solbergb 07-18-05, 12:34 PM	You tell me how a cleric or druid can replace my TK sorcerer and you might have an argument. At level 3, she could transport 1800lb of stuff for 3 hours, just as a single example of the power of a few key arcane-only spells and the ability to convert all your spell slots into those spells. The sneaky inclusion of arcane spells into more and more domain lists does weaken the class category some, but those are 1/day things, a bit more if you blow a feat and some turn checks. Most clerics can only duplicate one or two things (travel domain providing the arcane transport service, for example...the cleric list being much more limited in that regard). Blasting? Die for die, the arcane list does a little better, but the real power of it is in the variety. A cleric gets with flame strike what an arcanist gets with empowered fireball, empowered lightning bolt, cone of cold, chain lightning, etc. The single target zaps for an arcanist routinely do twice the damage except vs specific targets (searing light vs undead, say). At the very highest levels the save or xxx spells are equal, but in level 1-14 or so, the wiz/sorc has the edge. And then there are a few real standouts, such as grease, glitterdust, evards, wall of force, etc, that just don't appear on domain lists and shape the battlefield. Limited Wish, as well, is far more flexible than Miracle for most things, and costs less to use.
Dracspero 07-18-05, 12:39 PM	Well, I don't know anyone who actually allows Psionics in their campaign, so it's not an issue from where I'm sitting. The Warlock and Warmage ARE arcane casters. However, the Warlock is sufficiently different in flavour from the Wizard/Sorcerer that there's no reason they couldn't be effective working together. The Warmage is far too limited in scope to be an effective replacement for Wizard/Sorcerer. If anything, the sorcerer is more effective than the warmage because if he just selects one offensive spell at each caster level he'll have tons of damage out put, but he can use the rest of his spells know slots for defense and utility. Wizard has a lot of flexibilty due to his ability to scribe scrolls. However, with enough money the sorcerer can buy those same scrolls, which means he still has a fair bit of flexibility as well. At this point I haven't really seen a viable arcane replacement for the wizard/sorcerer.
Ranix 07-18-05, 01:06 PM	Hey Pax, are you stupid? Player characters don't fight each other. It just doesn't happen. It comes down to what characters are useful in a party and what characters are not. Trying to say that wizards are tough because they can drop save-or-die spells on you and you might fail your save or anything else is pure idiocy. Picture "duhr, my character can beat up your character". Wizards got a huge nerf from 3.0, and it was a little on the harsh side in my personal opinion. And whoever asid otherwise, a level 8 psion can use overchannel to turn into a 10hd pyrohydra. Even if he couldn't, he could turn into an 8hd pyrohydra, xo I don't know what crack you're smoking.
Yue Ryong 07-18-05, 03:47 PM	Limited Wish, as well, is far more flexible than Miracle for most things, and costs less to use. Not to quibble with your other points, but unless you're doing something major with Miracle, it doesn't cost anything. Sure, you can pay 5000xp, get something big outta your diety, but until you go above what is doable by wish, it comes out as more or less free. Personally, I think Wish should be upgraded to be in lign with Miracle, but that's just me.
Koga:The ninja trick 07-18-05, 04:30 PM	There's nothing wrong with wizards/sorcerers, wizards have a specific role. The "there's a problem, fix it" role. That's why they have such a variety of spells but have to put so much effort into them. They handle a specific situation for a specitifc time. That's thier nitch.. Sorcerers are blasters, buffers, and many other things. Dr@gon has done a good job of making them something worth picking.. Knowstones+Draconic Ray makes them comparible to the battle sorcerer, The Koga has never seen the warmage nor does he want too from what he's hearing.. Psionics are good just the way they are. We just won't speak of the erduite.. Everybody knows clerics/druids are overpowerd and The Koga thinks they should just be banned from all games.. Warlocks, eh, it appeals to the munckin crowd, get rid of that too.. Problem solved. *Whipes hands*
IceFractal 07-18-05, 06:00 PM	Troubleshooting: Be a Cleric with the Spell domain and Domain Spontaneity. Bam, there's your utility spells. For the cost of a turn attempt and 15 minutes you can cast any Wizard spell of 5th level or less that you have in a spellbook. Keep a spellbook with all the best utility spells and who needs a Wizard? Cannons: Artificers are hands-down the best blasters. Take a look at the CO boards and you'll see Artificers commonly doing 72d6 a shot. That's power. Stamina: Clerics and Druids both trump the Wizard in stamina, and the Warlock can keep going all day, albiet not as powerfully. Psions have less daily stamina but can pull out all the stops much better in a fight. Versatility: Sorcerers aren't very versatile, but nobody claimed they were. Wizards are theoretically versatile, but they have to spend time and money expanding their spellbooks if they want more than 2 spells/level known. Plus, if they wanta spell from a new book, they have to find someone that knows it. Whereas a Cleric just sits back and lets the spells roll in. Each new book with new spells makes a Wizard's job harder and gives free new spells to the Cleric (and Druid). Furthermore, a Warlock with a good number of wands can be as versatile as you want. Side Benefits: * Clerics get Turning, which while not so hot by itself can power a large number of excellent feats, including the rather brokenly good Divine Metamagic. Plus domain powers and spells, which can be quite nice. * Druids get Wildshape, which is extremely powerful, plus plenty of nice secondary features. Get Natural Spell and Druids trump all. * Artificers get excellent item creation abilities and a Craft Pool. * Warmages get Armored Casting, extra damage, and a number of free feats. * Psions get a Psicrystal (much better than a familiar), and access to powerful psionic feats. * Wilders get all those power surge abilities. -- compared to -- * Wizards get a familiar (which can be as much of a liability as a helper), and a few bonus feats. * Sorcerers get a familiar and nothing else. At all. No benefits after 1st level ever. SR and other defenses: Most casters are about equal here, with a few exceptions: * Clerics and Druids, especially Druids, can keep fighting even when their spells don't work. * Psions have huge versatility regarding energy types and such. The Final Straw: The final nail in the Sorcerer/Wizard coffin was, for me, when I was browsing the CO boards (say what you want about them, they know what's good and what isn't) and saw the question "What is the best basic adventuring party to cover the Tank/Scout/Blaster/Support roles?" The answer? Two Artificers and two Druids.
Hesparex 07-18-05, 06:07 PM	In a now retired game I played in I made devestating use of Wall of force (trapped two 16th lvl BBEG melee henchmen) and reverse gravity(watch those 4 iron golems go flying up). Shame the game ended when I was level 16 would have loved to see time stop added. Of course if you can get your opponent in the air gust of wind knocking a person into a prismatic sphere has its own joys
Manyfist 07-18-05, 07:02 PM	Psionics are good just the way they are. We just won't speak of the erduite.. Everybody knows clerics/druids are overpowerd and The Koga thinks they should just be banned from all games.. Warlocks, eh, it appeals to the munckin crowd, get rid of that too.. I agree on the first two points. Warlocks are not Munckinish, have you even picked up CA? They have 11 Incovations through out 20 lvls, + most of them are not very good. Warlocks are Tons of fun! :D
Error 401 07-19-05, 05:47 AM	I don't really think Warlocks are overpowered, the main reason people call them overpowered/underpowered is becuase they think of them as a caster. They aren't really a caster, per se. They're more like a magical archer with some special abilities.
Nyferto 07-19-05, 07:28 AM	Really, the psion says to the wizard "Anything you can do, I can do better." Summoner? Astral Construct and Wilder[, BAM, done. Better yet, I didn't use a power slot for it thanks to expanded knowlage, leaving my powers known for buffs and blasting and trouble shooting (Yea, right). Psions can do it to, but it won't be as pronounced Eh? That's a contradiction if I ever saw one. Lets see, Astral Construct vs Gate? No didn't think so. Yes it's a nice psionic power, but really, it's not like you can planar bind something into service or have an army of them at your disposal in one instance. Seriously, all these complaints (including Ice Fractals) are incredibly misguided and pathetic non-core comparisons. A Cleric with the spell domain? With a broken feat in two completely different non-core books? yeah great comparison. It completely captures the entire scope of D&D.
Kuraito 07-19-05, 10:16 AM	Eh? That's a contradiction if I ever saw one. Lets see, Astral Construct vs Gate? No didn't think so. Yes it's a nice psionic power, but really, it's not like you can planar bind something into service or have an army of them at your disposal in one instance. Seriously, all these complaints (including Ice Fractals) are incredibly misguided and pathetic non-core comparisons. A Cleric with the spell domain? With a broken feat in two completely different non-core books? yeah great comparison. It completely captures the entire scope of D&D. My apologizies, It happens sometimes, i ment PSIONICS, not psion. Anywho, my main point is, tell me something the wizard can do. Don't give examples or specific spells, just give me something like Versitility, or Troubleshooting or blasting, an archetype of some kind. and I'll point to another class that can not only do it, but prolly do it easier and/or better. That said, I never said wizards are worthless. I have tons of stories of wizards being useful. I'm just saying that by the MECHANICS of the GAME, they're weak, much weaker then any of the other casters I've pointed out. Wizard has always been one of my favorite classes, I just think they should be better then what they are. Really, I've spent a long time on this subject and have more or less laid out my argument and no one has really pointed holes or flaws. They've given examples of good wizard things, which I applaude, but if what I said is true, then it dosn't really matter. PS. on a side note, Clerics make wonderful summoners to, especially with the Summoner Domain :) .
not Yoda 07-19-05, 10:32 AM	Since psionics is not in the phb please give examples of where equal level psionics are more powerful than spells. The burden should not be on core players. Warmage makes a great blaster it is the fighter of arcane magic. Rarely useful outside of combat. Wiz or Scor are the ranger and barbarian. Clerical spells are on average less powerful than arcane of equal level. So really Scor and Wiz are the best at what they do.
IceFractal 07-19-05, 11:23 AM	Oh, so we're doing this core-only now? I wasn't aware of that - in fact, given that the OP references non-core stuff I was assuming that it was being factored in, but I guess I was wrong. :rolleyes: Seriously though, most of the stuff that's been mentioned is nearly core. Complete Arcane/Divine? More DMs will allow that than not. Heck, the RPGA allows almost all of it. Spell Domain? Try the FR campaign setting - not that obscure a source. Artificer? Eberron, something more than one group is playing. And you want core stuff? Then fine. Druid, just plain Druid. Especially since Natural Spell is perplexingly now a core feat. A well built Druid will stomp all over a Wizard. Oh, and Wall of Force? Force domain.
Hesparex 07-19-05, 11:29 AM	A cunning wizard can have unlimited wishes via the planar binding series of spells. Or if the wizard really wants to get nasty a ton of really powerful creatures around.
Votan 07-19-05, 12:30 PM	Seriously though, most of the stuff that's been mentioned is nearly core. Complete Arcane/Divine? More DMs will allow that than not. Heck, the RPGA allows almost all of it. Spell Domain? Try the FR campaign setting - not that obscure a source. Artificer? Eberron, something more than one group is playing. And you want core stuff? Then fine. Druid, just plain Druid. Especially since Natural Spell is perplexingly now a core feat. A well built Druid will stomp all over a Wizard. Oh, and Wall of Force? Force domain. 'tis true. If the complete canon of "standard" settings are used, the wizard probably takes the most violence of any class. Forgotten Realms really boosts the cleric's arcane "poaching" as well as adding new powers. The broad spectrum of domains really helps as does domain spontaneity and Contemplative. It's easy to have 4 spontaneous domains (36 spells) plus all cure spells as things that you can convert prepared spells (not to be neglected) into. Plus, more cleric spells tend to increase the power of divine which is limited by a less braod list than arcane. The automatic knowledge of the cleric of all cleric spells means that the flexibility of the cleric increases much faster with new spells than the wizard. If you go CORE ONLY then the arcane's do better. Not great but they have a lot more options. Still, note carefully that the Magic Domain (carefully note domain power) is core. Most optimized wizard builds involve at least some dependency on items. The magic cleric is a serious competitor all by itself.
Koga:The ninja trick 07-19-05, 12:32 PM	Psionics are kickass but also one-trick ponys. Sure they could /33t t3h w1z@rD and make him look stupid (Which is a very hurtful insult to a wizard) with astral contruct. But then they probably just burned all thier power points, relieved themselves of psionic focus, blahblahblahblahblah.. You'll find psychics are some of the most conservative players in a game. "And spend all my power points?! Are you INSANE?!"
Nyferto 07-19-05, 12:48 PM	Don't bother trying to blur the distinction of Core. I don't think you actually can play a strict by the rules balanced FR campaign setting game, ever. CD? With or without the Errata? Balanced ever? Psionics? Without or without the XPH? What sections of each? An Ebberon Artificer in a FR campaign? An FR Cleric Domain user in an Ebberon campaign using Psionics? Then throw in every splat book in existance and the inclusion and exclusion of non-core becomes a pointless comparison. Do the Quintisential series come into this? Oh and Kuraito Make a person with access to all Wizard/Sorc spells without using the Wizard or Sorc? Fact is, you're not talking about a one to one ratio of replacement characters, you're talking about a 10:1 ratio of replacement characters, I'd rather stick with the one.
not Yoda 07-19-05, 12:49 PM	It seems I was unclear. What I was asking for is an example because I use DMG PHB MM and various settings not including Eberron. I do not use psionics because I do not have the books and there are others like me. Whereas I would say that the percentage of people on the boards that own a PHB is very high. So it would be appreciated if you could provide evidence that supports your claim in this regard.
Atch 07-19-05, 12:56 PM	The best example of Psion power would be a level 15 Telepath fighting a level 15 Master of Many Forms (MoMF). The MoMF confidently turns into a red dragon (15HD) with all of its special abilities. Granted that there are other nasties to turn into but this example works. The Telepath burns 15PP to gain Iron body, Psionic gaining DR 15/adamantine and takes only half damage for fire. Round two: Dragon breaths fire on Telepath (7d10) for max damage. Now the telepath is either dead or more likely just took 35 points of damage. The telepath casts Schism which gives him a second mind to play with which casts Ego Whip on Dragon in the same turn. Ego whip has a will save for half. The Ego whip does 1d4 Charisma damage but can be pumped up to 3d4 by the second mind by using 11 pp and a silent spell metamagic feat to release a mental focus. Now, lets say that worse case he rolls all ones and only does half damage because of a successful will save by the dragon. The dragon only takes 1 maybe 2 point. Now in round two, the dragon comes into attack and the DR comes into effect. Now thinking that the Psion is still alive, the Psion casts Ego whip again and pumps it up to 5d4 Charisma damage rolling ones, he does 3 damage to the dragon's charisma on a successful will save. Repeat until dragon is in a stupor and then kill with touch attacks.
Nyferto 07-19-05, 12:57 PM	In this case, surely a Sorc/Wiz with disintegrate would do better?
not Yoda 07-19-05, 01:07 PM	The best example of Psion power would be a level 15 Telepath fighting a level 15 Master of Many Forms (MoMF). The MoMF confidently turns into a red dragon (15HD) with all of its special abilities. Granted that there are other nasties to turn into but this example works. The Telepath burns 15PP to gain Iron body, Psionic gaining DR 15/adamantine and takes only half damage for fire. Round two: Dragon breaths fire on Telepath (7d10) for max damage. Now the telepath is either dead or more likely just took 35 points of damage. The telepath casts Schism which gives him a second mind to play with which casts Ego Whip on Dragon in the same turn. Ego whip has a will save for half. The Ego whip does 1d4 Charisma damage but can be pumped up to 3d4 by the second mind by using 11 pp and a silent spell metamagic feat to release a mental focus. Now, lets say that worse case he rolls all ones and only does half damage because of a successful will save by the dragon. The dragon only takes 1 maybe 2 point. Now in round two, the dragon comes into attack and the DR comes into effect. Now thinking that the Psion is still alive, the Psion casts Ego whip again and pumps it up to 5d4 Charisma damage rolling ones, he does 3 damage to the dragon's charisma on a successful will save. Repeat until dragon is in a stupor and then kill with touch attacks. I see thank you. Nyferto also has a point. IMHO with the exception of Psionics, the classes listed at the beginning of this thread are merely focused versions of Wis/Scor in some campaigns this lack of versatility would invite disaster. A focused or just well thought out spellcaster of either of these two classes could hold his own easily. These classes do not come equipped with a flavor and that seems to be the only bias against them.
Pax 07-19-05, 01:35 PM	Whats a BBB? And where do i find this item/feat/uber figment of imagination (no sarcasm, just genuinely wanna know where to find it :) ) "Boccob's Blessed Book" - rightin the Dungeon Master's Guide. Costs ~13K to buy one, or about 6.5K to make it. Very nice, but not obscenely broken, no. Erm, try reading the class discription. It says that sorcerors manifest their power during puberty and can't control it at first. As such, their dwellings usually experience odd lights, sounds, explosions etc and as a result they are ostracised and even feared. It would be a VERY RARE case to find a non-outcast sorceror imo. Depends entirely on the setting. That describes the TYPICAL sorceror, yes - but "typical" merely means "majority", and that may be as little as ... say ... 51% of them. My own boy-sorceror, "Ethen Kerevas", was apprenticed as a scribe, to a retired Wizard. Well, said Wizard recognised his emergent powers, knew what he was, and managed to teach Ethen how to control and channel his powers pretty early on. Thus, no explosions, no random curses, no strange lights or things flying about on their own - except what the neighbors kind of already expected, given the wizard's hobbies! Despite being a Sorceror instead of a Wizard, Ethen was treated no differently from any other Wizard's apprentice. which begs a question from me- do wizards and sorcerors not inately know how to use magic items and wands and such? You never need the skill to use magic items that use spells from your own class(es) - meaning wands, scrolls, etc drawn from your own spell list. The skill is to go BEYOND what you can use automatically. by SR do you mean spell resistance? /me still new to forums and 3.5 Yep. ^_^ Hey Pax, are you stupid? No, and further unprovoked insults like this one will (a) get reported to the moderators, and (b) earnyou a spot in my Ignore list. Cut it out. Player characters don't fight each other. It just doesn't happen. Then explain how, for the past three years and more, I've been playing in (and GMing) Player-versus-Player Arena campaigns. Including a Gestalt arena I'm running right now ...! Seriously, all these complaints (including Ice Fractals) are incredibly misguided and pathetic non-core comparisons. So what if they're not Core? I know very few people who insist onplaying Core Rules only - and indeed, I know MORe people (myself included) who REFUSE to play "Core Only". There's too much fun stuff I've fallen in love with from outside the Core Rules, to ever enjoy being that comparatively-limited again. A Cleric with the spell domain? With a broken feat in two completely different non-core books? Domain Spntaneity is not broken. Perhaps you've missed the fact that each time you use that feat to spontaneously convert to a Domain spell, you use up one turn/rebuke undead attempt for the day. If you're an IMO-typical Cleric with a 12 or 14 Charisma, you've got, what, 4 or 5 turn attempts per day? Yes, yes, "Extra turning" - but then you're looking at spending almost ALL your feats to be able to do that any serious number of times per day. Thus, it's hardly broken. And ... Spell domain? So what? I consider it a natural addition to what Boccob offers, in fact! And the use to which it was suggested - all one has to do is remember how expensive it would be to hire a wizard to make you a spellbook - should come out to twice as much as a Wizard can doit for himself.. Even with that domain, after all, you LACK the ability to scribe spells for YOURSELF. ^_^ 300gp times the level of the spell, that's what "double the usual cost" comes out to be. yeah great comparison. It completely captures the entire scope of D&D. See, that's the kicker, here ... ENTIRE SCOPE. I don't think you actually can play a strict by the rules balanced FR campaign setting game, ever. I have. Indeed, my Gestalt arena (Endless war (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=10202&gn=DnD+3.5+(Gestalt):+Endless+War) on RPOL.net) is based around the idea of "factions" - specific thematic cores around which the "allowed sources" list is expanded or contracted. One of the factions is, in fact, centered around "The Forgotten Realms". (Others include Eberron, "Ultra Good Guys" (BoED), "Ultra Bad Guys" (BoVD), and Dragonlance - just to name a few). I don't see characters from thee as being significantly more powerful than characters from other factions; while it's a bit more popular, I'm betting that's ebcause there's a whole SLEW of FR books out there, and they've been around longer than most others, too. Psionics? Without or without the XPH? What sections of each? Since we're talking 3.5, that means XPH and only XPH. An Ebberon Artificer in a FR campaign? Frankly, I don't see why not. they should be rare or uncommon, but there ARE far-off lands yet-undetailed (or only vaguely detailed) on Toril. If you can legitimately have a Ninja in an FR campaign (just pick the reagion "Shou Expatriate", heh!), well, I'd say an Artificer is a bit less of a stretch than you might think. An FR Cleric Domain user in an Ebberon campaign using Psionics? First off, Eberron presumes the use of Psionics, if you have the rules - provable with one word: Kalashtar. Second off: many of the FR domains just make SENSE; if they fit the deities of Eberron, why NOT offer them? After all, CD introduces a lot of domains, some of which were originally published in the FRCS; other books do likewise (Undeath - in Libris Mortis now; originally appeared in the FRCS). note that CD and LiMo are not setting-specific supplements, nor are either of them exclusively GM-oriented books. There's nearly as much "kick undead arse better" stuff in LiMo as there is "make tougher undead" stuff; it's IMO only the Monsters chapter that balances it in favor of "GMs will use this more often", really. Do the Quintisential series come into this? WOTC material, no matter how supplementary, is ALWAYS closer to Core than ANYthing published by third-party sources.
Pax 07-19-05, 01:51 PM	The best example of Psion power would be a level 15 Telepath fighting a level 15 Master of Many Forms (MoMF). The MoMF confidently turns into a red dragon (15HD) with all of its special abilities. Granted that there are other nasties to turn into but this example works. The Telepath burns 15PP to gain Iron body, Psionic gaining DR 15/adamantine and takes only half damage for fire. Round two: Dragon breaths fire on Telepath (7d10) for max damage. Well. MoMF, eh? We're probably looking at a Druid(5)/MoMF(10) then - MoMF is a clearly druidic-aimed PrC. Or did you mean the Master Transmogrifist ...? Well, if we go with the Druid ... there's no reason for him not to have the feat Fast Wildshape. so ... on round 2, the MoMF uses a move action to shift to a Rust Monster. Mmmmmmmmmm, ferrous psionic ... tasty! Or maybe he just changes into a Juvenile Ethereal Dragon - [force]-descriptored breath weapons are fun, even at "only" 8d6, DC 18 (average is 28hp, save for 14; max damage is 48, save for 24). Alternately, a Young Radiant Dragon - 6d10[force], DC 20 save for half. That's 33hp average, save for ~16.5hp - or max damage of 60, save for 30. However, far and above the best choice ... Juvenile Rust Dragon. Just .... think about that one. One breath weapon, and if the reflex save (DC 20) fails ... instant death for the Psion. In short: MoMF was a bad choice. No offense. And even without being Druid at base, a Wizard-MoMF can do some nasty things too - it just delays that Rust Dragon breath weapon for one round.
solbergb 07-19-05, 06:52 PM	As a side note, I really don't buy the "well domain XXX gives one useful arcane spell so it duplicates an arcanist" argument. Ok, so Force domain gives Wall of Force. It doesn't give the mobility spells. Travel domain gives the mobility spells. Doesn't give wall of force or contingency. blah blah. Even with domain spontenaity, you also can't match the ability to cast some of these spells over and over that a sorc can do (or a wiz if he knows he has to). As for magic domain...someone has to provide the cleric with the arcane toys, and consumables are usually a poor and expensive substitite for the real thing. They're useful, but not a replacement...if they were, Rogues and Bards with UMD would have obsoleted all of the primary casters.
Votan 07-19-05, 08:21 PM	As a side note, I really don't buy the "well domain XXX gives one useful arcane spell so it duplicates an arcanist" argument. Ok, so Force domain gives Wall of Force. It doesn't give the mobility spells. Travel domain gives the mobility spells. Doesn't give wall of force or contingency. blah blah. Even with domain spontenaity, you also can't match the ability to cast some of these spells over and over that a sorc can do (or a wiz if he knows he has to). As for magic domain...someone has to provide the cleric with the arcane toys, and consumables are usually a poor and expensive substitite for the real thing. They're useful, but not a replacement...if they were, Rogues and Bards with UMD would have obsoleted all of the primary casters. Okay, a well built cleric designed to explot domain spontaneity could have as an example: Start as Cleric 1 to 4 (elite array: Str 13 Dex 8 COn 14 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 12) Human 1: Domain Spontaneity (Travel) 1: Extra Turning (total 8 uses, with a nightstick 13 uses) 3: Domain Spontaneity (Trickery) Chruch Inquistor 1-6 (to 10th level) 6: Domain Spontaneity (Inquistion) 9: <choice of extra turning or here is where a crafting feat goes> Contemplative 1-10 (levels 11-20) 11: Bonus Domain (Magic) 12: Domain Spontaniety (Magic) 15: Extra Turning 16: Bonus Domain (Force) 18: Domain Sponaniety (Force) At the pinnacle of this build you have access to six domains and can spontaneously cast from all of them up to 17 (or 19 with a +4 CHA item) times (how many spells per day do you cast?; this would almost be enough to only do this). You have a sponatneous list of 45 spells (not all of which are equally useful but 45!!) plus spontaneous cures. If you don't mind one domain not being spontaneous you could work in Divine Oracel or, if an Elf, Seeker of the Misty Isles is possible (although the survival skill requirment is murder without multi-classing). I agree that a causal "Look, I took domain spontaneity" build comes no where near the arcanist but without really trying I created something realtively competitive. Okay, he's LG but the 4 skill points/level for the Inquistor make that a worthwhile domain. Other combinations can work too. The cleric is so well rounded that you can afford to do this. And remember, he'll be preparing a standard cleric spell list as well so the spontaneous spells are swiches that the character does as circumstances change. It frees up slots , introduces massive flexibility and lets him poach on arcane territory by repeating spells that may need multiple casting occasionally (fly, teleport) and enables him to make use of this massive number of domain effectively (as otherwise it would be a waste of potential than could be invested elsewhere). How common is a focused build like this? I'd play one but I might be unusual.
RadicalTaoist 07-19-05, 09:44 PM	I hear the tired, old Wizard vs. Psion stuff again. Weren't we through with that nonsense? (http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=416446&origin=) There are some areas where Psions/Wilders/Psywars do have the edge on Wizards. Illusions, Summons, Party Buffing, Battlefield Control, and Utility spells go to the Wiz, easily.
Pax 07-20-05, 01:28 AM	Start as Cleric 1 to 4 (elite array: Str 13 Dex 8 COn 14 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 12) Human 1: Domain Spontaneity (Travel) 3: Domain Spontaneity (Trickery) 6: Domain Spontaneity (Inquistion) 12: Domain Spontaniety (Magic) 18: Domain Sponaniety (Force) [...]he's LG[...] I'm sorry, but this simply isn't possible. Without the application of vast quantities of house rules and/or third-party material, this combination simply isn't something that you can do. The "Force" domain is available only to Clrics of Tharizdun (Lords of Madness, p207). Tharizdun is NE (LMad table 9-1, p177), and offers the domains of Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Force, andMadness (LMad table 9-1, p177). The alignment doesn't match the domains, and within the rules as published by WOTC, that set of domains can't be taken together - period.
kyidyl 07-20-05, 02:01 AM	Everyone seems to be going on about how mages are underpowered because they couldn't beat X class in one on one combat. Specifically, psionics. But, as someone who has long played mages and loved them, who becomes a mage to have to dirty your hands with one on one combat anyway? I'll use some of my 20 levels to create a fortess for you to slog through so that when and if I DO have to fight you...you're half dead and half out of powerpoints when you get to me. ;P And then, I do always have the option of Teleporting away. C'mon, this isn't WOW, where you fight to level or gain HK's, or where you minimax to get the best set of armor. Mages aren't about raw power, they're about the wonder of magic. If I want to make a spell to serve my needs, I research it. If I want an extra few AP, well, I have wish and--oh, look--I'm good at wording and my DM can't find a loophole with which to screw me, so now I have a 38 int, and good luck saving from that. ;P~ And if I get _REALLY_ hard up for cash, I can always go into the nearest town and cast prestedigitation for a few hours to sing for my supper. Besides, if we roll over mages as a class and exclude them cause they're a bit underpowered in one on one combat, I can't use "magic" as an answer when my PCs want to know why that city floats. ;P~~~~ About Psionics being conservative, yeah, I've noticed that. My Psion player was fighting some zombies last night, and wouldn't make with the really damaging spells till the last zombie. He cast a few spells and then was spent for the night...but he's typically be conservative with his power point usage.
Nyferto 07-20-05, 03:44 AM	So what if they're not Core? I know very few people who insist onplaying Core Rules only - and indeed, I know MORe people (myself included) who REFUSE to play "Core Only". There's too much fun stuff I've fallen in love with from outside the Core Rules, to ever enjoy being that comparatively-limited again. This is entirely the point, you can't take one aspect from a book and ignore the rest of it in a free comparison. Then again, a DM might do just that. There's no point using non-core examples to slag off a core class. It doesn't mean anything. It's like only using Arcane books to make Arcane casters look good. Domain Spntaneity is not broken. Perhaps you've missed the fact that each time you use that feat to spontaneously convert to a Domain spell, you use up one turn/rebuke undead attempt for the day. If you're an IMO-typical Cleric with a 12 or 14 Charisma, you've got, what, 4 or 5 turn attempts per day? Yes, yes, "Extra turning" - but then you're looking at spending almost ALL your feats to be able to do that any serious number of times per day. Thus, it's hardly broken. Seriously? Votan demonstrated to me that it was potentially worse than Divine Metamagic and that's saying something. When you consider that it's fairly easy to get a Cha boost by 3rd-4th level, you're looking at 6-8 castings of spells you not only had to prepare before, but that you may have been limited to one casting of. Top that off with items that give you extra uses, PrC's that give you extra uses, Feats that give you extra uses and the fact that you've still got all your other spells - it's pretty stupid for a feat. And ... Spell domain? So what? I consider it a natural addition to what Boccob offers, in fact! And the use to which it was suggested - all one has to do is remember how expensive it would be to hire a wizard to make you a spellbook - should come out to twice as much as a Wizard can doit for himself.. Even with that domain, after all, you LACK the ability to scribe spells for YOURSELF. ^_^ 300gp times the level of the spell, that's what "double the usual cost" comes out to be. I don't even know what it does, it doesn't matter. If it has spells like Greater Any Spell on it - guess what - its crap. How on earth can a Cleric lack the ability to scribe scrolls? He only needs one feat? Spells that give cross-over to Arcane are predominantly stupid and bad, not only that but they make Domain Spontinaity worse. See, that's the kicker, here ... ENTIRE SCOPE. Yeah, you're only looking at a fraction of it. I have. Indeed, my Gestalt arena (Endless war (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=10202&gn=DnD+3.5+(Gestalt):+Endless+War) on RPOL.net) is based around the idea of "factions" - specific thematic cores around which the "allowed sources" list is expanded or contracted. Gestalt and Arena, yeah that sounds about right for a standard campaign. One of the factions is, in fact, centered around "The Forgotten Realms". (Others include Eberron, "Ultra Good Guys" (BoED), "Ultra Bad Guys" (BoVD), and Dragonlance - just to name a few). I don't see characters from thee as being significantly more powerful than characters from other factions; while it's a bit more popular, I'm betting that's ebcause there's a whole SLEW of FR books out there, and they've been around longer than most others, too. And what kind of characters do they make? Who's the most powerful? How does it compare to the range of possiblities? Or is just the same old crap? From the people who brought you Elminster and Drizzt, yet more overhyped tosh in our new expansion: The Strangely approachable North East. Since we're talking 3.5, that means XPH and only XPH. You do realise it's an Expansion to the Original Psionics Handbook, not only that but you may not have even heard of it yet, or even gone out and bought it, or even liked what you see, maybe you like your casters to have phsyical casting stats? Non-core is no singular thing. Frankly, I don't see why not. they should be rare or uncommon, but there ARE far-off lands yet-undetailed (or only vaguely detailed) on Toril. If you can legitimately have a Ninja in an FR campaign (just pick the reagion "Shou Expatriate", heh!), well, I'd say an Artificer is a bit less of a stretch than you might think. You mean the Ninja that got reprinted in the CAdv or the one that got printed in the Oriental adventures? Y'see, Artificers are campaign specific, whilst Ninja's have been re-invented to be generic, even then they won't always fit and it says so in their description. Null point. First off, Eberron presumes the use of Psionics, if you have the rules - provable with one word: Kalashtar. No that's the wrong context, a FR Cleric, worshipping a FR deity and using FR domains, in an Ebberon Campaign - focusing on Psionics. Yeah it's the standard. Second off: many of the FR domains just make SENSE; if they fit the deities of Eberron, why NOT offer them? After all, CD introduces a lot of domains, some of which were originally published in the FRCS; other books do likewise (Undeath - in Libris Mortis now; originally appeared in the FRCS). note that CD and LiMo are not setting-specific supplements, nor are either of them exclusively GM-oriented books. There's nearly as much "kick undead arse better" stuff in LiMo as there is "make tougher undead" stuff; it's IMO only the Monsters chapter that balances it in favor of "GMs will use this more often", really. Some of them make sense, doesn't mean they're good, doesn't mean they combine well with other material, doesn't mean they can be taken out of context, doesn't mean a DM will think they're balanced, doesn't mean they're balanced, doesn't mean they're reasonable additions, doesn't it's good stuff. WOTC material, no matter how supplementary, is ALWAYS closer to Core than ANYthing published by third-party sources. No, it's absolutely non-core, there's only two things you can be, Core and Non-core. Then you're either balanced or unbalanced.
Nyferto 07-20-05, 03:45 AM	I'm sorry, but this simply isn't possible. Without the application of vast quantities of house rules and/or third-party material, this combination simply isn't something that you can do. The "Force" domain is available only to Clrics of Tharizdun (Lords of Madness, p207). Tharizdun is NE (LMad table 9-1, p177), and offers the domains of Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Force, andMadness (LMad table 9-1, p177). The alignment doesn't match the domains, and within the rules as published by WOTC, that set of domains can't be taken together - period. Do you know what a contemplative is? Look it up.
Votan 07-20-05, 07:11 AM	I'm sorry, but this simply isn't possible. Without the application of vast quantities of house rules and/or third-party material, this combination simply isn't something that you can do. The "Force" domain is available only to Clrics of Tharizdun (Lords of Madness, p207). Tharizdun is NE (LMad table 9-1, p177), and offers the domains of Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Force, andMadness (LMad table 9-1, p177). The alignment doesn't match the domains, and within the rules as published by WOTC, that set of domains can't be taken together - period. I'm not sure where vast quantities of house rules come in. Let's construct this using only the PHB and the Complete Divine. First we'll use the often overlooked dietyless cleric: "If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies." That gets us Travel and Trickery without any difficulty. Church Inquisitor was actually the hardest thing to justify without any house rules but a careful reading of it gets us there as well. In particular the clause: "Must be a member of a lawful good church or religous order, and must have uncovered soem corruption within that organization." The DM could kill this one, 'tis true, by not having corruption in his local order of Paladins. Otherwise your LG dietyless cleric merely joins a LG religious order of militant knights of diverse faiths. Not guarenteed in all campaigns (thus the most difficult step) but not banned in any way that I can see. The last 2 domains are easy as pie. Under Contemplative: "Bonus Domain: Upon adopting the contemplative class, and againa t 6th level, a character gains access to a bonus domain of her choice. The character can choose any domain made available by her diety or alignment." For a dietyless cleric, that would be all domains that don't contradict her alignment (i.e. not choas or evil in thsi case). So picking Force and Magic seems straightforward. That normally only an evil diety has force as a domain isn't a problem as the domain itself is not inherently evil in any way. Getting into Contemplative will require the thrid pathway under special requirements, however: "Must have had direct contact with one's patron diety or a direct servant of that diety, or with an enlightened being embodying the highest principles of an alignment (a solar, for example)" but they convienently give an example that a Gate spell can be bought to ensure happens on schedule. Nothing the least bit non-core here. No vast amounts of house rules. If Church Inquisitor is blocked (which could be camapign specific) then a level of Warpriest could give Domination or Glory for a caster level. An elf could sneak in a single level of Seeker of the Misty Isle at a high level for the bonus domain but that's a bit back loaded. But likely that empty feat will be used on Skill Focus(Knowledge[Religion]) and the 5th domain will be Oracle via Divine Oracle. The only setting where this will not work in standard D&D is in the Forgotten Realms where this combination is not, as far as I can tell, legal (although with the vast amoutn of material here I could have missed something) as a dietyless cleric is not legal. Good 4 domain combinations for this setting include: Akadi: Air, Illusion, Travel, Trickery Mystra: Illusion, Knowledge, Magic, Spell Oghma: Charm, Travel, Luck, Trickery You repalce the more aggressive force with illusion (more useful anyway) or charm (save or die is always useful). Of the 3, Mystra is the overall best in overall power as the initiate of Mystra feat (you have one free feat to use in this build) gives access to spell phylactery which is a poor man's contingency spell. In this setting (barring a prestige class I have missed, and loord knows there are a lot of them) I'd probably give up and do a 4 domain sponteneous caster instead of 5. It's just too hard to balance everything abnd the only diety who really gives a domain that helps with the feat issue is Velsharoon (Death, Evil, Magic, Undeath) and his list isn't promising for a cleric built around exploiting domain lists. Best match to the build concept is probably Akadi. Oghma is a MVP as spontaneous Miracel is nice and the overall set is pretty clean.
Banedir 07-20-05, 10:48 AM	I think if the limit of "one domain spell per day per spell level" is removed in any way at all, then there's going to be very little reason to play an arcane caster, except for flavour. Personally, I'd never allow anything like that within a hundred miles of any of my games. That aside, wizard offers a lot of interesting options and magic. The possibilities of an illusionist alone are staggering - by fifth level you can cast Major Images, Minor Images, and Silent Images to last you all day long, and accomplish fantastic things, as well as have a lot of fun. With a little imagination you could do untold chaos with just those spells. That's less effective at higher levels, of course, because more people might be able to see through your tricks, but it'd depend on the style of your game.
Timlagor 07-20-05, 12:29 PM	The best example of Psion power would be a level 15 Telepath fighting a level 15 Master of Many Forms (MoMF). The MoMF confidently turns into a red dragon (15HD) with all of its special abilities. So the MoMF casts no spells and stays within Range and in the same form? Far more likely to fly off for half an hour (or whatever) while the DR wears off then come back.
Votan 07-20-05, 02:23 PM	So the MoMF casts no spells and stays within Range and in the same form? Far more likely to fly off for half an hour (or whatever) while the DR wears off then come back. There is a useful spell called "Lesser Globe of Invulnerability" that also works against a 2nd level power under the core rules. Pretty much stops the tactic cold. Then I note that Ego WHip is mind affecting. One had better hope that the Master of Many Forms can't turn into something immune to mind affecting spells. I like Iron Golems if they are available. If you were a full caster you could also cast iron body and match the Telepath there completely. It's also an interesting question as to whether you acquire the 50% spell failure chance. But the 15th level wizard could just have cast mind blank on himself. This will be annoying to deal with. A straightforward example like this where a prestige class fails against a telepath by being extremely passive is unlikely unleass the arcane guy isn't trying.
Pax 07-20-05, 05:39 PM	There's no point using non-core examples to slag off a core class. It doesn't mean anything. It's like only using Arcane books to make Arcane casters look good. You willnote, I have myself used non-core Arcane books to COUNTER those non-core "arcane sucks" examples. I don't even know what it does, it doesn't matter. If it has spells like Greater Any Spell on it - guess what - its crap. You obviously don't know how (Greater) Anyspell works, either. Here's the basics: it lets you prepare a Wizard spell from a wizard's spellbook. How on earth can a Cleric lack the ability to scribe scrolls? Scribing a spellbook is not the same as scribing a scroll. Scrolls you can scribe via a feat - but you have to prepare the spell FIRST. Spellbooks on the other hand are only scribed via a class feature - one which the Cleric lacks. Yeah, you're only looking at a fraction of it. No, I - with my nearly fourty-odd books at my side - am looking at nearly all of it (there ARE still a few bits and pieces I haven't bought yet). You on the other hand want to limit the franchise to only thebarest fraction of that panoply of volumes which qualify as "Core Rules". Gestalt and Arena, yeah that sounds about right for a standard campaign. Jeeze, you make a lot of assumptions, don't you? Quote me ever trying to say anything LIKE "a gestalt arena is the same as a standard campaign". However, an arena is a good measure of how characters fare matched off against other characters - the kinds of comparisons that have been brougth up RIGHT HERE, in this very thread. And what kind of characters do they make? All kinds. We've got (put in simple terms) wizards, clerics, psions, monks, barbarians, sneaky-ambush rogue ... heck, just about everything. In fairly even distribution. Who's the most powerful? So far the toughest character is shaping up to be a goliath Monk with incredible AC and saves. Next place, though, is an arcane spellcaster - who was the first to level up, in fact. How does it compare to the range of possiblities? Or is just the same old crap? It compares quite well, because each Faction is limited to just a fractionof the available books - noone gets to cherry pick the best of EVERYthing. For example - the "Warbound" faction is for Eberron and the XPH; it also gets access to Lords of Madness (made sense, because of the Daelkyr, straight out of the ECS). This atop the core rules and core supplements i.e. MM2, MM3, FF, the Complete series) that everyone gets access to. But they can't touch any of the FR stuff, nor the BoED/BoVD. You do realise it's an Expansion to the Original Psionics Handbook, XPH - "Expanded Psionics Handbook". No, it's not an expansion, it's a replacement. not only that but you may not have even heard of it yet, or even gone out and bought it, I turn my head to theleft, and there it is: my very own copy ofhte XPH. or even liked what you see, With the advent of the XPH, I have finally been able to honestly say "eureka! they finally got D&D psionics right - not perfect, but RIGHT nonetheless!". IOW - I most assuredly do like it. maybe you like your casters to have phsyical casting stats? That doesn't exist in 3.5e; the entire point of the XPH was to do away with that. Non-core is no singular thing. Only if you want to be completely, willfully asinine. You mean the Ninja that got reprinted in the CAdv or the one that got printed in the Oriental adventures? As I have stated already, I am restraining my part of the conversation to 3.5e sources (and those 3.0e sources which have been updated - like much of the FR stuff, by the mechanism of the PGFR). OA is 3.0e, and thus, not among the range of sources I have considered. Ergo, yes - I mean the Ninja base class in CV, not the prestige class in OA. Y'see, Artificers are campaign specific, whilst Ninja's have been re-invented to be generic, even then they won't always fit and it says so in their description. Null point. Artificers are campaign-specific only in that they were created FOR a specific campaign. That is not to say that a GM might not decide to borrow or adapt the Artificer for some other campaign setting - homebrew or otherwise. No that's the wrong context, a FR Cleric, worshipping a FR deity and using FR domains, in an Ebberon Campaign - focusing on Psionics. Yeah it's the standard. Not what you said. You said "An FR Cleric Domain user in an Ebberon campaign using Psionics" - and I responded that I saw no problem adopting Cleric Domains from FR into an Eberron game, nor the problem with including Psioncis in an Eberron campaign (since compatibility with Psionics is already built-in, anyway). [...] doesn't it's good stuff. If you're going to play Chicken Little about what if's to THAT extent, I suggest you go back to playing checkers. Seriously. No, it's absolutely non-core, there's only two things you can be, Core and Non-core. Um. I see three easy-to-draw distinctions: Core, Non-core, and THIRD PARTY. Do you know what a contemplative is? Look it up. Yes, I know what it is. It doesn't allow you to freely cherry-pick ANY domains you want. First we'll use the often overlooked dietyless cleric: "If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies." That gets us Travel and Trickery without any difficulty. Great - so your Cleric's spiritual inclinations are along the lines of Travel and Trickery. Explain to me how those fit in with Force and Magic? There's a conflict there. not to mention, I don't see a spiritual inclination of "trickery" would make an appropriate candidate for being an Inquisitor. (We won't gt into how rarely I've ever seen a DM allow a Deity-less cleric to fly). The only setting where this will not work in standard D&D is in the Forgotten Realms where this combination is not, as far as I can tell, legal (although with the vast amoutn of material here I could have missed something) as a dietyless cleric is not legal. Wouldn't work in Eberron, either - pick a deity, or AT MOST, one of the two "collective pantheons".
Ranix 07-20-05, 07:16 PM	You're all ignoring everything the other posters are saying. Granted, all the dung being flung from your tongues (lol rhymes) is so dumb I can hardly stand it, but at least try to keep up. Look to PARTY EFFICIENCY when you look to the power of a class. Don't look at "Duh, my character can beat your character". That is stupid. Let me counter Atch to prove my point. Level 15 psion and a level 15 Master of Many Forms are fighting some monsters together. Round 1: Atch: The MoMF confidently turns into a red dragon (15HD) with all of its special abilities. He uses one use of wild shape, and has plenty left over. Ranix: The Psion confidently turns into a huge, twelve-headed pyrohydra (12hd) with one of its supernatural abilities. He chooses the breath weapon. He burns 7 power points out of a total of 195. Round 2: Atch: Dragon breaths fire at a cone of monsters, (7d10) for average damage (38.5). Ranix: Hydra breathes fire at a cone of monsters, (36d6) for average damage (126), forcing saves for massive damage from everything. Honestly, wizards can't keep up on the shapechanging scene. Druids are number 1, but psions are a close second. Also keep in mind the psion here is core and you have a splat-dependant build. Also keep in mind the psion can turn into everything you can, and can cast his spells no matter what his form is because psion spells have no verbal or somatic components.
Nephlite 07-20-05, 07:32 PM	It seems I was unclear. What I was asking for is an example because I use DMG PHB MM and various settings not including Eberron. I do not use psionics because I do not have the books and there are others like me. Whereas I would say that the percentage of people on the boards that own a PHB is very high. So it would be appreciated if you could provide evidence that supports your claim in this regard. You could use the SRD, System Reference Document. Psionics is 90% core because it is included in SRD. Other books in SRD include PHB, DM, and MM. XPH, Expanded Psionic Handbook is 3.5 material. It is the upgrade, just like PHB 3.5 is the upgrade from 3.0 PHB. No more Psionic combat variant (adding back in the splat book Hyperconsciousness: Exploration in Psionics. I just read it and it much better than 3.0's) anyway, to another person: And instead of Disintegrate...why not Psionic Disintegrate in is in the XPH.
Ranix 07-20-05, 08:05 PM	Reading through the posts, I noticed a couple people referenced Planar Binding. Yes, planar binding is something I think only wizards can do (well). Planar Ally doesn't even touch it, as you have to pay copious amounts of gold to the thing you summon. Magic Jar is also a truly wizardous spell. Quite humorous when combined WITH Planar Binding, by the way. The problem with wizards is the dungeon crawl. If something attacks from behind, breaks through to, falls on, or grapples the wizard he can do nothing. The psion, cleric, druid, warlock, and even the battemage to some extent can all survive a critical hit or a couple bad rounds. The wizard is turned to dust far too easily whether he has an empowered false life or not.
solbergb 07-20-05, 08:21 PM	Okay, a well built cleric designed to explot domain spontaneity could have as an example: Start as Cleric 1 to 4 (elite array: Str 13 Dex 8 COn 14 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 12) Human 1: Domain Spontaneity (Travel) 1: Extra Turning (total 8 uses, with a nightstick 13 uses) 3: Domain Spontaneity (Trickery) Chruch Inquistor 1-6 (to 10th level) 6: Domain Spontaneity (Inquistion) 9: <choice of extra turning or here is where a crafting feat goes> Contemplative 1-10 (levels 11-20) 11: Bonus Domain (Magic) 12: Domain Spontaniety (Magic) 15: Extra Turning 16: Bonus Domain (Force) 18: Domain Sponaniety (Force) At the pinnacle of this build you have access to six domains and can spontaneously cast from all of them up to 17 (or 19 with a +4 CHA item) Well, forget the nightstick. All turn-based feats break when the nightstick is added to the game. I'll grant a +6 cha item by level 18 though, so lets say 2x extra turning and 20 CHA = 14 spont domain spells, plus the 9 you get, 23 total. As for the 45 domain spells, many duplicate existing cleric spells. The true new capabilities brought to the table are considerably less, and some of the absolute number are superseded by higher level versions of the same spell. (eg, teleport and greater teleport). Now then. This mix has the wizard mobility down pretty well (Travel) in L3,4,5,7 spells, although it does lack overland flight and feather fall. In stealth/scouting, the cleric can go invisible and nondetectable (trickery), has nystul's aura from magic domain, but lacks Veil, Greater Invisibility, and the entire Polymorph tree. In divination, it has identify, but is notably missing arcane sight and analyze dewomer, as well as useful spells such as prying eyes and detect scrying. The Complete books provide Mind Spider, so most mindreading magic is fully covered there, and I think Inquisition provides detect thoughts in any event. In anti-magic, it's got both antimagic shell and mord disjunction, it's pretty much got the winners here. You aren't getting force until level 18, so the key Wizard force spells (from magic missile to ottiluke's sphere to wall of force, to forcecage) are missing for most of the career. I think force domain provides the best of them eventually though, but I'm working from memory. I'm not actually feeling all that stepped on. 14 spontaneous and 9 domain slots prepared is about 20% of the arcane availability, and is nothing like what a sorcerer can bring to the table. It's closer to the "open slots" and pearls of power a L18 wizard will have than any true equivalent on duration. Plus there isn't any room for metamagic at all, since all feats are tied up making the most of the domains. Then there are all the missing spells. Just off the top of my head, and just core, and ignoring the "signature" evocations, we are lacking prestidigitation, open/close, message, unseen servant, ray of enfeeblement, tenser's disc, detect secret doors, alarm, see invisible, glitterdust, fox cunning, false life, cat grace, web, rope trick, pyrotechnics, explosive runes, arcane sight, suggestion, phantom steed, the entire "Image" and "Shadow" series of spells, haste, slow, heroism, rage, blink, leomund's hut, Leomund secure shelter, all of the "XXX Fog" spells, greater invisible, evard tentacles, enervation, all of the Polymorph spells, confusion, all of the "charm" spells, detect scrying, prying eyes, telepathic bond, hold monster, Dominate XXX, feeblemind, telekenesis, magic jar, overland flight, mordenkeinen sanctum, analyze dewomer, veil, eyebite, contingency, greater heroism, disintegrate, spell turning, all of the "fatigue/exhaustion" spells, bigby grasping hand(and higher level versions..unless they're in force domain, can't remember), project image, reverse gravity, mordenkeninen mansion, limited wish, mind blank, maze, otto's irresistable dance, moment of prescience, the "power word" spells, the "prismatic' spells, scintillating pattern, screen, time stop. Plus of course the usual evocations. Access to those spells is plenty to diferentiate any arcanist from the domain spontenaity guy, especially since they'll have quite a few metamagic feats by level 18 to further expand their capabilities. (for the wiz, at a minimum quicken spell is going to make a difference, for the sorc, any metamagic applies to their entire spell mix, and the sorc outdoes this guy a lot in spontenaity, having ~40 spells known and a couple hundred metamagic combinations by level 18, and more high level spell slots.)
Timlagor 07-20-05, 09:30 PM	Nightsticks don't stack. (they only grant you 4 attempts when you hold/use them and holding another one gives you back the same 4 attempts)
Pax 07-20-05, 09:32 PM	Ranix: Hydra breathes fire at a cone of monsters, (36d6) for average damage (126), forcing saves for massive damage from everything. Uh, no. Pyrohydrae breath fire in JETS, not cones. They breath a 10' wide, 10' high, 20' long linear jet. Each jet, even if they overlap, is a seperate 3d6-save-for-half roll - rather than an all-or-nothing single-save affair. The Dragon's breath, is a fourty-foot cone. Meaning, the odds are pretty good that the dragon can get mroe creatures per single breath (of volley of breaths), than the Pyrohydra can. Still. The point here is only that ht Pyrohydra has a better breath weapon, at 15HD or under, than a Red Dragon does. Which makes me wonder why, exactly, the MoMF didn't turn into a Pyrohydra (or Cryohydra), himself. Also keep in mind the psion can turn into everything you can, and can cast his spells no matter what his form is because psion spells have no verbal or somatic components. Well, since the example (and no, *I* didn't start this one) is the MoMF ... then you're comparing to Druid, not Wizard. So with a single feat, the Druid/MoMF also can cast spells regardless of form. I can only assume the originator of this comparison was thinking of the Master Transmogrifist when they said MoMF. And that does change things, just a LITTLE bit. ... like the fact that, if we're looking for sheer fire-damage-spewing ... the wizzie is probably going for Pyrohydra, too. The problem with wizards is the dungeon crawl. If something attacks from behind, breaks through to, falls on, or grapples the wizard he can do nothing. The psion, cleric, druid, warlock, and even the battemage to some extent can all survive a critical hit or a couple bad rounds. The wizard is turned to dust far too easily whether he has an empowered false life or not. Depending on your level, you may be immune to most of that. Ghostform makes things falling on you, or grappling you, a thing no longer to be feared (incorporeality rocks). Anecdote: because I made a point of prioritising my Constitution, a Wizard I'm currently playing in a higher-level game is the second LEAST fragile character int he party (we're using the UA rules for Vitality and Wound points - I have THEhighest number of Wound Points (Improved Toughness is an EXCELLENT feat choice in a VP/WP environment), and the SECOND highest Vitality Point total (+5 con bonus - I get more HP from constitution than from my class ... to the tune of about two-thirds of my HP total). Granted, his AC is abysmal, but I've got spells for dealig with that (Greater Mage Armor, as an Argent Savant, is worth +8/armor, and a simple Shield spell is worth another +6/shield for him).
Ranix 07-20-05, 09:47 PM	Actually, what the heck am I doing comparing the two anyway? The freaking Master of Many Forms is a prc for DRUIDS and has nothing to do with arcane casters. I thought the poster had some kind of build with the Master Transmogrifist. This is totally irrelevant ANYWAY. Depending on your level, you may be immune to most of that. Ghostform makes things falling on you, or grappling you, a thing no longer to be feared (incorporeality rocks). Ok spend your first action per encounter chewing up your level 5 spell slots (that you used to prepare like 5 Ghostforms just so you can survive a dungeon) and I will go, oh, I dunno, attack something maybe? By the way, using Unearthed Arcana variant HP systems is not a minor change and is by no means core or representative of normal D&D without all your crazy houserules.
Ranix 07-20-05, 10:09 PM	Each jet, even if they overlap, is a seperate 3d6-save-for-half roll - rather than an all-or-nothing single-save affair. Uh, no. Each jet deals 3d6 points of fire damage per head. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. If you mean to say that you make multiple reflex saves because there are multiple jets, you are implying that 12-headed pyrohydras breathe for 432d6 damage every 1d4 rounds. Each jet deals 3d6 points of fire damage per head.
Timlagor 07-20-05, 10:27 PM	Wizards *prepare* for grapple. DDoor and Contingent Blink/... are common tactics for instance.
AramilWindwalker 07-20-05, 10:50 PM	when speaking about getting domains, i just made a cleric that gets a buttload, and he is a cleric of pelor clr5/do1/RSoP10/cont1/warpriest1 cleric gives sun and healing divine oracle gives oracle RSoP gets strength contemplative gets good warpriest gets glory and leaves 2 more levels to try to get more of them...
Votan 07-20-05, 11:53 PM	You Great - so your Cleric's spiritual inclinations are along the lines of Travel and Trickery. Explain to me how those fit in with Force and Magic? There's a conflict there. not to mention, I don't see a spiritual inclination of "trickery" would make an appropriate candidate for being an Inquisitor. That is actually the easy part. Trickery and magic go together (see the number of lists that they both show up on) so I'd justify the magic as beign an extension of a playful nature with spells and spell-like efects. Look at travel as imposing one's will on the world and look at things like fly as telekinetic. As for the inquisitor, it's a "it takes a thief to find a thief" -- you are a principled fellow who explores the subtle side of magic to understand how things lurk in the darkness (trickery then travel) but will use force to compell obedience from reality when needed (Travel <fly, dimension dorr tearing hoels in reality etc...> leading to Inquisition leading to Force). Nothing in the RAW prohibits this approach. If an exact chain is vetoed by a DM there are always fall back plans. (We won't gt into how rarely I've ever seen a DM allow a Deity-less cleric to fly). Once in my whole D&D experience did a DM say "sure" when I floated the idea of a dietyless cleric with domian spontaneity working his way towards beign a Contemplative. I remain pretty sure that this DM would never respond the same way twice. It's a competitive field, I admit, but I'd speculate that the dietyless cleric is perhaps the most frequently houseruled item in the game. If it isn't before somebody does this, it almost certainly will be afterwards. Wouldn't work in Eberron, either - pick a deity, or AT MOST, one of the two "collective pantheons". Fair enough. I do not own Eberron but I have a decent core and FR collection so I tend to focus on these settings. Without the dietyless cleric, the exploit of Domain Spontaneity is harder.
Banedir 07-21-05, 08:27 AM	I'd allow Magic, Trickery, Force and Travel for a deityless cleric who worshipped, for example, the wind. But I wouldn't allow domain spontaneity, so there ya go...
Votan 07-21-05, 10:25 AM	Well, forget the nightstick. All turn-based feats break when the nightstick is added to the game. I'll grant a +6 cha item by level 18 though, so lets say 2x extra turning and 20 CHA = 14 spont domain spells, plus the 9 you get, 23 total. Well, adding 4 turning attempts total doesn't actually break anything as far as I can tell. Nor does the number of attempts reflect much on the core arguments belwo (based on diversity). As for the 45 domain spells, many duplicate existing cleric spells. The true new capabilities brought to the table are considerably less, and some of the absolute number are superseded by higher level versions of the same spell. (eg, teleport and greater teleport). Well, let's us just consider which spells are on my hypothetical list: 1: Longstrider, Magic Aura, Diguise Self, Mage Armor, <detect chaos> 2: Invisibility, Identify, <Locate Object>, Magic Missle, <Zone of Truth> 3: <Dispel Magic>, Nondetection, Fly, Blast of Force, Detect Thoughts 4: Dimension Door, <Imbue with Spell Ability>, Confusion, Resilient Sphere, <Discern Lies> 5: Teleport, False Vision, <Spell Resistence>, Wall of Force, <True Seeing> 6: <Antimagic Field>, <Find the Path>, Mislead, Repulsion, <Geas> 7: Greater Teleport, Screen, Phase Door, Forcecage, <Dictum> 8: Protection from Spells, Polymorph any Object, Phase Door, Telekinetic sphere, <Shield of Law> 9: Disjunction, Time Stop, <Astral Projection>, Crushing hand, Imprisonment Now then. This mix has the wizard mobility down pretty well (Travel) in L3,4,5,7 spells, although it does lack overland flight and feather fall. In stealth/scouting, the cleric can go invisible and nondetectable (trickery), has nystul's aura from magic domain, but lacks Veil, Greater Invisibility, and the entire Polymorph tree. In divination, it has identify, but is notably missing arcane sight and analyze dewomer, as well as useful spells such as prying eyes and detect scrying. The Complete books provide Mind Spider, so most mindreading magic is fully covered there, and I think Inquisition provides detect thoughts in any event. Yes, it does. In anti-magic, it's got both antimagic shell and mord disjunction, it's pretty much got the winners here. You aren't getting force until level 18, so the key Wizard force spells (from magic missile to ottiluke's sphere to wall of force, to forcecage) are missing for most of the career. I think force domain provides the best of them eventually though, but I'm working from memory. Level 16, actuially, it's jsut not spontaneous until level 18. There is a good argument for switching around the order of the doamins, actuially, as force might be miore important earlier. I'm not actually feeling all that stepped on. 14 spontaneous and 9 domain slots prepared is about 20% of the arcane availability, and is nothing like what a sorcerer can bring to the table. It's closer to the "open slots" and pearls of power a L18 wizard will have than any true equivalent on duration. Plus there isn't any room for metamagic at all, since all feats are tied up making the most of the domains. Well, the number of spells seems bad until you realize that all cleric spells are also available in prepared slots. Sicne this is a hybrid build they have botht he flexibility of a sponteneous caster with the depth of a prepared caster. With lots of boosk, the cleric side can have a pretty thorough list of his own. Then there are all the missing spells. Just off the top of my head, and just core, and ignoring the "signature" evocations, we are lacking prestidigitation, open/close, message, unseen servant, ray of enfeeblement, tenser's disc, detect secret doors, alarm, see invisible, glitterdust, fox cunning, false life, cat grace, web, rope trick, pyrotechnics, explosive runes, arcane sight, suggestion, phantom steed, the entire "Image" and "Shadow" series of spells, haste, slow, heroism, rage, blink, leomund's hut, Leomund secure shelter, all of the "XXX Fog" spells, greater invisible, evard tentacles, enervation, all of the Polymorph spells, confusion, all of the "charm" spells, detect scrying, prying eyes, telepathic bond, hold monster, Dominate XXX, feeblemind, telekenesis, magic jar, overland flight, mordenkeinen sanctum, analyze dewomer, veil, eyebite, contingency, greater heroism, disintegrate, spell turning, all of the "fatigue/exhaustion" spells, bigby grasping hand(and higher level versions..unless they're in force domain, can't remember), project image, reverse gravity, mordenkeninen mansion, limited wish, mind blank, maze, otto's irresistable dance, moment of prescience, the "power word" spells, the "prismatic' spells, scintillating pattern, screen, time stop. Plus of course the usual evocations. Many of these spells could be obtained by picking the right domain. There are a few that don't but somethim,es they have a better cleric alterntive (limited wish is actually tumped by miracle, for example). Mind Blank and Moment of Prescience are in domains which can tempt me towards one all by themselves. My selection above does have polymorph. Still, it si a broad list. However, there are other domain combinations. Few arcanists will have a massively more broad list of arcane spells -- espcially a sorcerer. True, a very well deisgned sorcerer who uses metamgic effecively will have a borader range of effects and the domain guy but he'll have miore depth. A wizard has to make some pretty massive investments in spells to overcome the depth of the domain guy. It's possible, true, but expensive. Access to those spells is plenty to diferentiate any arcanist from the domain spontenaity guy, especially since they'll have quite a few metamagic feats by level 18 to further expand their capabilities. (for the wiz, at a minimum quicken spell is going to make a difference, for the sorc, any metamagic applies to their entire spell mix, and the sorc outdoes this guy a lot in spontenaity, having ~40 spells known and a couple hundred metamagic combinations by level 18, and more high level spell slots.) It's not perfect but it does cross over strongly. The better saves, hit points, armor and skill list are not to be ignored. I look at what is better: 2 domian spontaneity clerics poaching arcane spells 1 cleric and one sorcerer. I think that it isn't a blinding sweep but it certainly raises questions.
Pax 07-21-05, 12:25 PM	If you mean to say that you make multiple reflex saves because there are multiple jets, you are implying that 12-headed pyrohydras breathe for 432d6 damage every 1d4 rounds. No; it was my interpretation that each headhad a seperate jet, and that each jet dealt 3d6 damage. Your interpretationmakes the Pyrohydra even more limited, because it means he can't even try to "spread the love". So you get a single 10' high, 10' wide, 20' long jet of fire. Compared, still, to a fourty foot cone from the Dragon. While, yes, the Pyrohydra deals more damage to a single target, or small collection of targets ... the Dragon deals damage to more targets. If we presupposed a checkerboard-arrangement of medium-sized ground-bound foes, the Dragon can get ... twenty-eight targets. The Pyrohydra can, meanwhile, get only ... four targets. Now, I dislike comparing "max damage", and prefer to compare average damage. Average for a 6d10 breath is 33 (save for 16). Average for a 36d6 breath is 116 (save for 58). 116 times 4 is ... 464. That's the Hydra's expectable outcome, pre-save, in the situation outlined above. 33 times 28 is ... 924, which is the Dragon's expectable outcome, in the same situation. All of a sudden, it doesn't look QUITE so clear that the Hydra is neccessarily the be-all, end-all form to take. Really, it depends: do you need to pump modest damage out over a very large number of targets ... or do you need to pump large amounts of damage into a very few targets? Therein lies the choice between Red Dragon and Pyrohydra. And anyone capable of one, is most likely capable of both. Thus, the "comparison" proves, to me, nada. ^_^
Pax 07-21-05, 12:38 PM	but will use force to compell obedience from reality when needed (Travel <fly, dimension dorr tearing hoels in reality etc...> leading to Inquisition leading to Force). The domain "Force" is not ablut "using force", it is about "the energy manifested in a Wall of Force".
Votan 07-21-05, 01:23 PM	The domain "Force" is not ablut "using force", it is about "the energy manifested in a Wall of Force". It's true; as I try to write a coherent background for the domains that I picked I end up finding that I pretty have to swap the order of acquisiton between magic and trickery. It's suboptimal (quite) but Trickery and Force can both be aspects of magic and a philoosphy of travelling the world to see it's wonders (i.e. magic) would actually fit well. In any case, while it pushes the boundries of core, it is clearly within them (just as much as Divine Metamagic [Persistent]). That doens't make it a good idea to allow it in a game, just shows how much of the arcanist's turf can be poached.
solbergb 07-21-05, 01:50 PM	It doesn't matter which 4 domains you choose, you still can't come close to covering the arcane list. (and even when a better divine option exists, as in Miracle vs limited wish, remember that the sorc had access to the spell 3 levels earlier to accomplish many of the same effects, uses more easily available and abundant spell slots and never needs permission from the deity) All shifting the domains around does is vary the list of spells not covered. I look at what is better: 2 domian spontaneity clerics poaching arcane spells 1 cleric and one sorcerer. I think that it isn't a blinding sweep but it certainly raises questions. I'd take 1 cleric and 1 sorc any day, because the sorc can choose spells with no overlap from the cleric and together they can get synergies neither can get apart. Furthermore the sorc can load up on metamagic, and the cleric can make use of turning feats, or the cleric can be the designated crafter and make items for both of them. (where the domain spont guys..oh yeah, no feats left over...too bad) The two domain spont clerics waste all their feats duplicating what the sorc does for free. The extra hp of cler vs the sorc is pretty much covered by false life and then empowered false life. The AC of the cleric can pretty much be covered by polymorph+mage armor should the sorc be silly enough (or required to) to engage in melee combat. So the sorc can function pretty well if for some reason the two characters are forced into melee instead of doing what they are best at as primary casters...spellcasting.