Arcane/Arcane Divine/Divine [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane/Arcane Divine/Divine [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arkonth
05-29-05, 12:59 PM I was wondering whether there was an already existing class that allowed the continuation of two styles of arcane or divine casting. Like a Mystic Theurge, but crossing wizard/sorcerer or cleric/druid etc.

If not, would the ceation of such a class be balanced? What requirments and class skills are a good idea? Should the divine one be different from the arcane?
Gingerbread Guy
05-29-05, 01:05 PM I don't think such a thing exists, though I don't see why it would be terribly unbalanced. A Cleric/Druid mix would lose a lot of nifty Druid class features. A Wizard/Sorcerer mix would lose very few class features (better familiar, wizard feat every 5 levels) in exchange for a LOT of spellcasting, but each class would be 3 levels behind the progression of a pure wizard or pure sorcerer, and thats rather damaging.

I'm really not that big a fan of that kind of class (Mystic Theurge, Crerebremancer, Arcane Heirophant) because I feel they lack flavour for a PrC. But in terms of balance, they're not actually as powerful in practice as I originally thought.

~Ginger
Lina_Inverse
05-29-05, 02:43 PM they dont exist because there pointless.a sorcerer/wizard shouldnt exist its the same type of magic with diffrent styles,an intelligent charecter would realize hell be more powerful by sticking with his favored style than wasteing his energy trying to do the same thing twice.which by definition a sorc/wiz is.a cleric/druid would get a gut feeling its pointless.
Arkonth
05-29-05, 04:12 PM Gingerbread Guy: Thanks for your thoughts.

Lina: I'm really looking into this idea for my campaign world where I'm putting strict flavor barrirers between spontaneous and prepared casting, and further, I'm planning on using some of the new base classes from the complete books. Oh, and while still readable, your post was difficult to understand, is English your first language?

Edit: I will never be able to get through a post without typos will I?
Drood
05-29-05, 04:51 PM Gingerbread Guy: Thanks for your thoughts.

Lina: I'm really looking into this idea for my campaign world where I'm putting strict flavor barrirers between spontaneous and prepared casting, and further, I'm planning on using some of the new base classes from the complete books. Oh, and while still readable, your post was difficult to understand, is English your first language?

Edit: I will never be able to get through a post without typos will I?

Damn that's a really rude thing to say to someone especially when you can't even spell. I had more trouble reading your post than Lina's. Sorcerer/wizard and cleric/druid are absolutlely retarded combos. You'd end up with a bunch of low level spells, decent saves, an absolutely awful BAB, and your class features would be well behind the curve. The rules are already set up to have barriers between the similar casting classes, so you don't really need to mess with it.

Sorcerer/wizard - particularly gimped because of needing two primary mental stats. Wouldn't get the bonus metamagic feats that a full-blown wizard gets, and you never get the high level spells which make these classes truly shine.

Druid/cleric - Same deal with the high level spells, but add in that you can't wear heavy armor (without a 24 hour hold on your druid spellcasting), your wildshaping is limited, and your undead turning will never be up to snuff.

Maybe we're just having difficulty understanding the intentions of your post, is English your first language? :rolleyes:
Steve_from_accounting
05-29-05, 04:59 PM Yes there is a druid/Clrc and there is Wiz/sorc, hell there is a Fighter/Barb and there all called the same thing, Gistalt.
but serously, the point of the mistic theurge was to combine two diffrent ideollogies (divine and arcane) not two diffrent methods (prepaired Vs. spontanious) in comparison a car/plane or a car/boat would be pritty cool but a car/truck would just be redundant. you lose the power of the truck and the speed of the car making for an all around sucky veicle. a wiz/ sorc would be the Chevy Nova of casting classes.
Arkonth
05-29-05, 05:06 PM Pardon I'm really sorry if my comment was offensive, I really wasn't trying to be mean as there are a lot of people on these boards who have a different primary language.

As for what was intended by my post, I was really speaking towards a prestige class similiar to mystic theurge, and to how one would go about creating one or if it already existed. Any thoughts on what requirements for such a class (or classes I suppose if divine/divine and arcane/arcane were split) or any thoughts on whether it would be fair to advance some class abilites like the Fochlucan lyrist does, perhaps familiar for the arcane/arcane.

Gestalt is an option I suppsoe but I'd like to keep this at a closer to normal power level.

Oh and I'm sorry about my atrocious spelling, I really do try and edit these, but my typing skills (or lack thereof) always seem to get the best of me.
Mirikon
05-29-05, 06:02 PM I believe it was said best by another poster on these forums that when combining two full caster classes, you will suck. With Mystic Theurge, or something like it, you suck less. That is the reason why things like Mystic theurge or Focclucan Lyrist are balanced. Because you're already sucking.
Arkonth
05-30-05, 12:09 PM Okay, I'm going to gather from all the "this idea sucks" comments that such a class would not be overpowered. Therefore I'm going to postulate that continuing the familiar probably isn't a bad thing, and maybe even a bonus feat once or twice won't hurt.

Thank you all for your help, or lack thereof.
Mirikon
05-30-05, 05:19 PM The idea itself is great. I love the idea. I wish Wizards would make an official PrC like this. Also, i've done similar classes myself before. I remember one based on a Sor/Wiz multiclassing with Warlock called the Dark Magician. But it seems to have disappeared.
Deviston
05-30-05, 06:23 PM I would have to say its anok idea. sure you dont get all the high level powered spells (( which is bull, your only at level 7 spells which are powerful anyway )) but you get lots o spells! you get the ability to choose at the time for sorc levels , you wont have to rely on prepared. but you could if you wanted, or prepare a BUTT load of buffing metamagics. anyway, i really wouldnt use it, but no, i dont think is overpowered.

::END SUBSCRIPTION::
Keebler
05-30-05, 06:27 PM The thing about the class you are talking about is that either you would gain one spellcaster level for each class at each level and be essentially a gestalt, or you would have to choose and do little except avoid multiclassing penalties. For example, if you assume that you need level 3 caster in each class (standard for this kind of class), then a 20th level sor/wiz that gained both classes at each level would cast all of their spells at 17th caster level, and have almost double the spells of a 20th level single class character. They still get 9th level spells. With the second method, they would cast spells at 10th level in both classes (assuming balanced caster level gains) and get at most 5th level spells. It would be a better idea to just stay with normal multiclassing, or pick one class and stay with it.
Jaid
05-30-05, 06:31 PM personally i'd like to see something like this in psionics too, but that's just me i guess...
Nadaka
05-30-05, 06:36 PM the only way to keep this odd little idea of yours balanced would be for the "combo prestige class" to have no class features, require level 3 spells from each class. This way you get a 20th level character with 15th caster level in 2 related classes and all the low level abilities of each class. You would have a huge number of spells, but would lack the most powerful ones. Seems fair in my opinion.
Mirikon
05-30-05, 06:41 PM the only way to keep this odd little idea of yours balanced would be for the "combo prestige class" to have no class features, require level 3 spells from each class. This way you get a 20th level character with 15th caster level in 2 related classes and all the low level abilities of each class. You would have a huge number of spells, but would lack the most powerful ones. Seems fair in my opinion.

Why level three spells? I mean, Mystic Theurge only requires level 2 spells, and it is by no means even close to overpowering. If you add in additional prereqs, you can add in features to balance, as well. If you also restrict to certain classes (Wiz/Warlock for instance) then you can add in features to balance.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arkonth 05-29-05, 12:59 PM	I was wondering whether there was an already existing class that allowed the continuation of two styles of arcane or divine casting. Like a Mystic Theurge, but crossing wizard/sorcerer or cleric/druid etc. If not, would the ceation of such a class be balanced? What requirments and class skills are a good idea? Should the divine one be different from the arcane?
Gingerbread Guy 05-29-05, 01:05 PM	I don't think such a thing exists, though I don't see why it would be terribly unbalanced. A Cleric/Druid mix would lose a lot of nifty Druid class features. A Wizard/Sorcerer mix would lose very few class features (better familiar, wizard feat every 5 levels) in exchange for a LOT of spellcasting, but each class would be 3 levels behind the progression of a pure wizard or pure sorcerer, and thats rather damaging. I'm really not that big a fan of that kind of class (Mystic Theurge, Crerebremancer, Arcane Heirophant) because I feel they lack flavour for a PrC. But in terms of balance, they're not actually as powerful in practice as I originally thought. ~Ginger
Lina_Inverse 05-29-05, 02:43 PM	they dont exist because there pointless.a sorcerer/wizard shouldnt exist its the same type of magic with diffrent styles,an intelligent charecter would realize hell be more powerful by sticking with his favored style than wasteing his energy trying to do the same thing twice.which by definition a sorc/wiz is.a cleric/druid would get a gut feeling its pointless.
Arkonth 05-29-05, 04:12 PM	Gingerbread Guy: Thanks for your thoughts. Lina: I'm really looking into this idea for my campaign world where I'm putting strict flavor barrirers between spontaneous and prepared casting, and further, I'm planning on using some of the new base classes from the complete books. Oh, and while still readable, your post was difficult to understand, is English your first language? Edit: I will never be able to get through a post without typos will I?
Drood 05-29-05, 04:51 PM	Gingerbread Guy: Thanks for your thoughts. Lina: I'm really looking into this idea for my campaign world where I'm putting strict flavor barrirers between spontaneous and prepared casting, and further, I'm planning on using some of the new base classes from the complete books. Oh, and while still readable, your post was difficult to understand, is English your first language? Edit: I will never be able to get through a post without typos will I? Damn that's a really rude thing to say to someone especially when you can't even spell. I had more trouble reading your post than Lina's. Sorcerer/wizard and cleric/druid are absolutlely retarded combos. You'd end up with a bunch of low level spells, decent saves, an absolutely awful BAB, and your class features would be well behind the curve. The rules are already set up to have barriers between the similar casting classes, so you don't really need to mess with it. Sorcerer/wizard - particularly gimped because of needing two primary mental stats. Wouldn't get the bonus metamagic feats that a full-blown wizard gets, and you never get the high level spells which make these classes truly shine. Druid/cleric - Same deal with the high level spells, but add in that you can't wear heavy armor (without a 24 hour hold on your druid spellcasting), your wildshaping is limited, and your undead turning will never be up to snuff. Maybe we're just having difficulty understanding the intentions of your post, is English your first language? :rolleyes:
Steve_from_accounting 05-29-05, 04:59 PM	Yes there is a druid/Clrc and there is Wiz/sorc, hell there is a Fighter/Barb and there all called the same thing, Gistalt. but serously, the point of the mistic theurge was to combine two diffrent ideollogies (divine and arcane) not two diffrent methods (prepaired Vs. spontanious) in comparison a car/plane or a car/boat would be pritty cool but a car/truck would just be redundant. you lose the power of the truck and the speed of the car making for an all around sucky veicle. a wiz/ sorc would be the Chevy Nova of casting classes.
Arkonth 05-29-05, 05:06 PM	Pardon I'm really sorry if my comment was offensive, I really wasn't trying to be mean as there are a lot of people on these boards who have a different primary language. As for what was intended by my post, I was really speaking towards a prestige class similiar to mystic theurge, and to how one would go about creating one or if it already existed. Any thoughts on what requirements for such a class (or classes I suppose if divine/divine and arcane/arcane were split) or any thoughts on whether it would be fair to advance some class abilites like the Fochlucan lyrist does, perhaps familiar for the arcane/arcane. Gestalt is an option I suppsoe but I'd like to keep this at a closer to normal power level. Oh and I'm sorry about my atrocious spelling, I really do try and edit these, but my typing skills (or lack thereof) always seem to get the best of me.
Mirikon 05-29-05, 06:02 PM	I believe it was said best by another poster on these forums that when combining two full caster classes, you will suck. With Mystic Theurge, or something like it, you suck less. That is the reason why things like Mystic theurge or Focclucan Lyrist are balanced. Because you're already sucking.
Arkonth 05-30-05, 12:09 PM	Okay, I'm going to gather from all the "this idea sucks" comments that such a class would not be overpowered. Therefore I'm going to postulate that continuing the familiar probably isn't a bad thing, and maybe even a bonus feat once or twice won't hurt. Thank you all for your help, or lack thereof.
Mirikon 05-30-05, 05:19 PM	The idea itself is great. I love the idea. I wish Wizards would make an official PrC like this. Also, i've done similar classes myself before. I remember one based on a Sor/Wiz multiclassing with Warlock called the Dark Magician. But it seems to have disappeared.
Deviston 05-30-05, 06:23 PM	I would have to say its anok idea. sure you dont get all the high level powered spells (( which is bull, your only at level 7 spells which are powerful anyway )) but you get lots o spells! you get the ability to choose at the time for sorc levels , you wont have to rely on prepared. but you could if you wanted, or prepare a BUTT load of buffing metamagics. anyway, i really wouldnt use it, but no, i dont think is overpowered. ::END SUBSCRIPTION::
Keebler 05-30-05, 06:27 PM	The thing about the class you are talking about is that either you would gain one spellcaster level for each class at each level and be essentially a gestalt, or you would have to choose and do little except avoid multiclassing penalties. For example, if you assume that you need level 3 caster in each class (standard for this kind of class), then a 20th level sor/wiz that gained both classes at each level would cast all of their spells at 17th caster level, and have almost double the spells of a 20th level single class character. They still get 9th level spells. With the second method, they would cast spells at 10th level in both classes (assuming balanced caster level gains) and get at most 5th level spells. It would be a better idea to just stay with normal multiclassing, or pick one class and stay with it.
Jaid 05-30-05, 06:31 PM	personally i'd like to see something like this in psionics too, but that's just me i guess...
Nadaka 05-30-05, 06:36 PM	the only way to keep this odd little idea of yours balanced would be for the "combo prestige class" to have no class features, require level 3 spells from each class. This way you get a 20th level character with 15th caster level in 2 related classes and all the low level abilities of each class. You would have a huge number of spells, but would lack the most powerful ones. Seems fair in my opinion.
Mirikon 05-30-05, 06:41 PM	the only way to keep this odd little idea of yours balanced would be for the "combo prestige class" to have no class features, require level 3 spells from each class. This way you get a 20th level character with 15th caster level in 2 related classes and all the low level abilities of each class. You would have a huge number of spells, but would lack the most powerful ones. Seems fair in my opinion. Why level three spells? I mean, Mystic Theurge only requires level 2 spells, and it is by no means even close to overpowering. If you add in additional prereqs, you can add in features to balance, as well. If you also restrict to certain classes (Wiz/Warlock for instance) then you can add in features to balance.