Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaerom Darkwind 01-20-05, 05:39 PM	As opposed to the Netherese Arcanist (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=366125) I posted on the FR boards, this version is intended to be balanced for use in a normal game. It's always bugged me that neither the wizard nor the sorcerer really "fits" the traditional arcane spellcaster from fantasy novels. The arcanist's method of casting spells, on the other hand, is perfect. Spontaneous casting from spell points, access to every spell she has ever studied or created--this is the iconic wizard we read about. While obviously powerful in concept, I think I've included enough balancing mechanics to keep it from being overpowered--without sacrificing the flavor. A breakdown of the basic components: the spellpoint progression is as a wizard, the spell level progression as a sorcerer; the spellbook is as a wizard, the spellcasting functions as per from a spellpool, except for mastered spells, which are as a sorcerer. The bonus feats are as a wizard, and the field specialization benefits are as a wizard. The epic progression is spellcaster standard. Table 1-1:The Arcanist Fort Ref Will Weave Spells Lvl BAB Save Save Save Special Arcs Depth Mastered 1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Field specialization, 2 1st 1 spellbook 2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 4 1st 2 3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 7 1st 3 4th +2 +1 +1 +4 11 2nd 4 5th +2 +1 +1 +4 Bonus feat 16 2nd 5 6th +3 +2 +2 +5 24 3rd 6 7th +3 +2 +2 +5 33 3rd 7 8th +4 +2 +2 +6 44 4th 8 9th +4 +3 +3 +6 56 4th 9 10th +5 +3 +3 +7 Bonus feat 72 5th 10 11th +5 +3 +3 +7 88 5th 11 12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 104 6th 12 13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 120 6th 13 14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 136 7th 14 15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 Bonus feat 152 7th 15 16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 168 8th 16 17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 184 8th 17 18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 200 9th 18 19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 216 9th 19 20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Bonus feat 232 9th 20ARCANIST (Arc) Arcanists were the major spellcasters in Netheril. Considered one of the most prestigious of professions, the arcanist was the equivalent to the wizard or sorcerer of modern-day Faerûn. But with this prestige came a price. Arcanists were renowned for their haughtiness concerning matters of magical healing through priestly magic. They believed that to accept a healing spell by a priest was to “surrender” their chance of ever achieving godhood themselves. They did consume heavily of potions of healing and similar curatives, believing them to be magically created concoctions that didn’t interfere with their ascension to godhood. One of the largest differences between Netherese spell-casters and their brethren from more modern times concerned the aspect of spell memorization. Arcanists didn’t memorize spells, they simply reached into the weave—the source of all magic—and plucked out the mystical energies they sought. They still recorded the spells that they knew upon spell books for review from time to time, but they didn’t need to spend hours studying for spells. They could still cast only the spells they knew, however, and their magical storehouse of knowledge still required a good night’s sleep to replenish itself. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dmg35_gallery/DMG35_PG179_WEB.jpg A Netherese arcanist GAME RULE INFORMATION Arcanists have the following game statistics. Abilities: Intelligence determines how powerful a spell an arcanist can cast, how many spells she can cast, and how hard those spells are to resist. To learn or cast a spell, the arcanist must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell’s level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an arcanist’s spell is 10 + the spell’s level + the arcanist’s Intelligence modifier. High Dexterity is helpful for an arcanist, because she typically wears little or no armor. A good Constitution is also helpful, as it gives an arcanist extra hit points, a resource that she is otherwise very low on. Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d4. Class Skills The arcanist’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int). Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4. Skill Points at Higher Levels: 2 + Int modifier. Class Features All of the following are class features of the arcanist. Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Arcanists are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, but not with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with an arcanist’s movements, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail. Arcs: An arcanist’s ability to cast spells is limited by the arcs she has available. Her base daily allotment of arcs is given on Table 1–1. In addition, she receives bonus arcs per day if she has a high Intelligence score (see Table 1–4). Certain feats and items may also provide bonus arcs per day. Each spell costs a certain number of arcs to cast. The higher the level of the spell, the more arcs it costs. Table 1–2 describes each spell’s cost. Table 1–2: Arc Costs Spell Arc Level Cost 0 0* 1st 1 2nd 3 3rd 5 4th 7 5th 9 6th 11 7th 13 8th 15 9th 17 * 0-level spells (cantrips) typically cost no arcs to cast. An arcanist can cast a number of cantrips per day equal to 3 + her Int modifier. Any additional 0-level spells in a day cost 1 arc each.In order to replenish her store of arcs, the arcanist must rest for at least eight hours and then spend fifteen minutes concentrating on the Weave. Any arcs spent within the last eight hours count against the arcanist’s daily limit and are not restored. Field Specialization: Arcanists differ from other spellcasters in their division of magic into three fields—invention, mentalism, and variation—rather than the traditional eight schools. Every arcanist must select at 1st level one field as her major field of specialization, and one as her minor field. The arcanist gains a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks to identify and scribe spells from her major field, and can master a small number of such spells as she advances (see Spells, below). Spells of the third field are not available to the arcanist, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change her choice of fields later. Fields of magic are treated just like schools where feats such as Spell Focus are concerned. Effects that specifically target a certain school only affect those spells of a field that fall into that school. So, for example, a character can gain Spell Focus (mentalism) as a feat, but an item that specifically blocks enchantment spells and effects would not necessarily block all mentalisms. Spells: An arcanist casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. An arcanist need not choose and prepare her spells ahead of time. Instead, she can cast any spell she has recorded in her spell library (see Spellbooks, below) simply by drawing energy from the Weave and shaping it appropriately. Casting a spell is a two-step process that requires the arcanist to first form the spell in her mind. This involves a full-round action to concentrate on the Weave while visualizing the spell (which provokes attacks of opportunity). The spell forms in the arcanist’s mind at the beginning of the next turn and can be used immediately. If the arcanist does not cast the readied spell within a number of minutes equal to her level, it fades from her mind as if cast. The spells an arcanist can cast in this way are limited by her level (see Weave Depth, below). An arcanist can hold a number of spells in her mind equal to her Intelligence modifier. Attempting to exceed this number causes her to lose a random spell as if cast each time. An arcanist also has the ability to master a small number of spells as she advances, which must be drawn from her major field. When casting these spells, she need not spend a full-round action to form the spell in her mind. These spells are so familiar to her that she can cast them at a moment’s notice. To form or cast a spell, the arcanist must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an arcanist's spell is 10 + the spell level + the arcanist's Intelligence modifier. Weave Depth: The more complex a spell is, the deeper an arcanist must reach into the Weave to cast it. An arcanist begins play with the ability to cast cantrips and 1st-level spells. As she attains higher levels, the arcanist may gain the ability to cast more complex spells. Spellbooks: An arcanist must learn spells before she can cast them, and part of this process is scribing them into her library of spellbooks. The process of scribing a spell is the same for an arcanist as it is with a wizard. Likewise, an arcanist can master a foreign spellbook's notations as a wizard, but requires one hour of study per spell level to learn each spell. An arcanist begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level sorcerer/wizard spells from her major and minor fields, plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the arcanist has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new arcanist level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new arcanist level) for her spellbook. At any time, an arcanist can also attempt to add spells found in other spellbooks to her own. Bonus Languages: An arcanist may substitute Draconic for one of the bonus languages available to the character because of her race. Bonus Feats: At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, an arcanist gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, Arcane Mastery, Extra Spell, Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, or Arcane Defense. The arcanist must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The arcanist is not limited to this list when choosing these feats. Fields of Magic A field is one of three groupings of spells, each defined by a common theme. The three fields are invention, mentalism, and variation. Invention: An arcanist who chooses invention is called an inventor. Inventions are spells that create and destroy things, and inventors are often mighty battle-mages. Mentalism: An arcanist who chooses mentalism is called a mentalist. Mentalisms are spells that affect the mind, and this field includes the greatest spell ever cast: Karsus’ avatar. Variation: An arcanist who chooses variation is called a variator. Variations are spells that alter and shape things—even magic itself. Many variators are masters of metamagic. Spells that are available to arcanists regardless of field are called Universals. This list should be as per the Universal school in the original 3rd Edition Player’s Handbook and supplements. A listing of which schools of magic correspond to each field can be found in Table 1–3. Note that Universal spells may be used by arcanists regardless of major. Table 1–3: Schools of Magic by Field Field Schools Invention Conjuration, evocation Mentalism Divination, enchantment, illusion Variation Abjuration, necromancy, transmutation Bonus [i]Arcs Just as common spellcasters receive bonus spells per day due to high ability scores, gifted arcanists gain bonusarcs. To determine the number of bonus arcs gained from a high Intelligence score, first find the row for the arcanist’s Int on table 1–4. Next, find the column for the highest level of spell the character is capable of casting based on her arcanist level (even if she doesn’t have a high enough Int to cast spells of that level). At the point where the row and column intersect, you find the bonus arcs the character gains. This value can change each time her Int score undergoes a permanent change (such as from an acquired template, a wish spell, or due to character level) and each time her level changes. Table 1–4: Bonus Arcs Int --------- Bonus Arcs (by Weave Depth)--------- Score 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10-11 - - - - - - - - - - 12-13 - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 14-15 - 1 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 16-17 - 1 4 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 18-19 - 1 4 9 16 16 16 16 16 16 20-21 - 2 5 10 17 26 26 26 26 26 22-23 - 2 8 13 20 29 40 40 40 40 24-25 - 2 8 18 25 34 45 58 58 58 26-27 - 2 8 18 32 41 52 65 80 80 28-29 - 3 9 19 33 51 62 75 90 107 30-31 - 3 12 22 36 54 76 89 104 121 32-33 - 3 12 24 38 56 78 104 119 136 34-35 - 3 12 27 48 66 88 114 144 161 36-37 - 4 13 28 49 76 98 124 154 188 38-39 - 4 16 31 52 77 110 136 166 200 40-41 - 4 16 36 57 84 117 156 186 220 42-43 - 4 16 36 64 91 124 163 208 242 44-45 - 5 17 37 65 101 134 173 218 269 46-47 - 5 20 40 68 104 148 187 232 283 48-49 - 5 20 45 73 109 153 205 250 301 50-51 - 5 20 45 80 116 160 212 272 323 And so on... EPIC ARCANIST The mightiest of archmages, an epic arcanist truly rivaled even the gods in arcane might. Crafting powerful artifacts and developing mighty spells, the epic arcanist was often legendary even in his own lifetime. Most epic arcanists strove towards a truly lofty goal: joining the ranks of the elite Archwizards. The archwizards were the rulers of the floating cities, enclaves of magical power that shaped the course of Netheril. While some arcanists became archwizards by taking over a city established by another archwizard who had met an untimely demise, most followed the proscribed course of action that their peers required: the creation of a floating city. Creating an enclave was a tremendous task, however. It required the creation of a mythallar, shaving off the top of a mountain with powerful magic (Proctiv’s move mountain or a similar epic spell), hiring builders and architects to create a unique environment that allowed the candidate to stand out among his rivals, and finally luring citizens to the enclave. Of course, once all of this was accomplished, the daily demands of running an enclave were tremendous. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MotP/Planeshifter.jpg An epic arcanist. Hit Die: d4. Spellcasting: The arcanist’s caster level is equal to her class level. The arcanist’s base arcs do not increase after 20th level. The arcanist does not master additional spells unless she selects the Spell Knowledge feat. Field Specialization: The base Spellcraft DC for developing and casting spells in the epic arcanist’s major field of specialization is reduced by 5. She cannot develop or cast spells based on seeds from her restricted field. Bonus feats: The epic arcanist gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic arcanist feats) every three levels after 20th. Epic Arcanist Bonus Feat List: Augmented Alchemy, Automatic Quicken Spell, Automatic Silent Spell, Automatic Still Spell, Combat Casting, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Rod, Craft Epic Staff, Craft Epic Wondrous Item, Efficient Item Creation, Enhance Spell, Epic Spell Artisan*, Epic Spell Focus, Epic Spell Penetration, Epic Spellcasting, Forge Epic Ring, Ignore Material Components, Improved Combat Casting, Improved Heighten Spell, Improved Metamagic*, Improved Spellcasting*, Intensify Spell, Multispell, Permanent Emanation, Scribe Epic Scroll, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Spell Stowaway, Spell Opportunity, Tenacious Magic. In addition to the feats on this list, the arcanist may select any item creation feat or metamagic feat not listed here. * New feat, listed below. Table 1–5: The Epic Arcanist Lvl Special 21st -- 22nd -- 23rd Bonus feat 24th -- 25th -- 26th Bonus feat 27th -- 28th -- 29th Bonus feat 30th -- EPIC SPELL ARTISAN [Epic] You can develop epic spells with less expense in time and resources. . Prerequisites: Epic spellcasting, Epic Skill Focus (spellcraft), Spellcraft 24 ranks. Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR Knowledge (religion) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells. OR Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells. . Benefits: When determining the cost of raw materials for researching an epic spell, you multiply the Spellcraft DC by 7,000 gp instead of the usual 9,000 gp and reduce the development time and XP cost accordingly. IMPROVED METAMAGIC [Epic] You can cast spells using metamagic feats more easily than normal. . Prerequisites: Caster level 21st, four metamagic feats, Spellcraft 30 ranks. . Benefit: Metamagic spells you manifest cost 2 arcs less than normal (to a minimum of 3 arcs). . Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. The effects stack, though you can’t lower the cost of any metamagic spell to less than 3 arcs. IMPROVED SPELLCASTING [Epic] You increase your number of arcs. . Prerequisites: Caster level 21st, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells. . Benefits: When you select this feat, you gain 19 arcs. . Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you do so, you gain an additional number of arcs equal to your previous benefit +2.
Jaerom Darkwind 01-21-05, 04:46 AM	Stupid high-traffic boards... :bump:
dragoncc 01-21-05, 11:11 AM	Stupid high-traffic boards... :bump: :weep: I'm right there with you. :weep: Interesting class though. I like it. :clap: When I get around to my FR campaign again I'll have to try it out. I already use a spellpoint system so it'll be interesting to see how it works.
Grigori 01-21-05, 11:28 AM	Ok, it looks interesting, just a few questions to make sure I'm tracking: 1. Arcs = spell points. It's just a name/flavor thing, right? 2. Field specialization: So if you take the one 'field' of magic, you can't cast spells from any of the schools not in your field except for Universal spells, which any Arcanist can cast, regardless of school. Or do you have a 'Major Field' and a 'Minor Field'? 3. Since you're using a spell point system, how does metamagic work with the Arcs? Do spells scale? The potential to cast 12+ x 9th level spells is fairly powerful, and not to be overlooked (true he would be nearly depleted of Arcs by then, but still... If anything is left standing after such a barrage, discretion is the better part of valor). There are a lot of lesser spells that are just as nasty, spell scaling tends to keep that in check to a certain degree.
mercurywyrm 01-21-05, 11:45 AM	Yeah, like Grigori said, how are you balancing metamagic. The psychic characters use power point caps allong with psionic focus, but what will you use? Could we have a more in depth analysis of how your caster casts their spells. Do they scale freely? Do the specialized ones scale freely? Do you have to spend arcs for scaling? Do you have some sort of "arc focus" mechanic? A possibility I just thought of would be to have a sort of spell "focus" mechanic where you expend it to use a metamagic or access a non-specialist spell. Your idea seems cool but probably will need some ironing to get out all the kinks.
jagggar 01-21-05, 12:23 PM	*twitch**twitchtwitch* Like two (maybe three) days ago I was lookin' at the PDF and was like "Ya know. . . That'd make a cool class. . ." Wondering what your thought process was as far as using a spell point system rather than keeping arcs as spell levels. Also, does anything drastic happen if an arcanist's spellbook is destroyed?
Mirikon 01-21-05, 01:22 PM	It is clear that you have put a lot of thought into this class. However, I would like to raise a couple questions for you to think about. 1) Like others have said, it is not clear how you would relate metamagic to this class. This needs to be cleared up, as metamagic is a big part of the game for spellcasters. Also, since the caster is casting spontaneously, will he still need the full round casting time, like sorcerers and other spontaneous casters? 2) The 'fields' idea, while nice, is a little lacking, IMO. My suggestion would be to twink it a bit. Perhaps model them off the Shadow Weave Magic feat. Your field gives bonuses to schools in that field, and penalties to ones not in it. 3) Someone compared this to psionics a couple posts back. Frankly, psionics are overpowered. When you got a 3rd level psion doing Mind Thrust for 40 damage, or something, it gets a little insane. This is one of the things I dislike about the spellpoint system, as it has the potential to make magic as overpowered as psionics. A heavy hit from the nerf bat, if you please. 4) This class, from what I've seen, has the major strengths of both the sorcerer and wizard classes, without their primary weaknesses. I haven't seen anything so far that balances this. As such, this class seems grossly overpowered.
Jaerom Darkwind 01-21-05, 02:19 PM	Ok, it looks interesting, just a few questions to make sure I'm tracking: 1. Arcs = spell points. It's just a name/flavor thing, right?Indeed. 2. Field specialization: So if you take the one 'field' of magic, you can't cast spells from any of the schools not in your field except for Universal spells, which any Arcanist can cast, regardless of school. Or do you have a 'Major Field' and a 'Minor Field'? I thought I explained that, but looking back, I see that somehow the "Field Specialization" text was deleted. Oops. Fixed. 3. Since you're using a spell point system, how does metamagic work with the Arcs? Do spells scale? The potential to cast 12+ x 9th level spells is fairly powerful, and not to be overlooked (true he would be nearly depleted of Arcs by then, but still... If anything is left standing after such a barrage, discretion is the better part of valor). There are a lot of lesser spells that are just as nasty, spell scaling tends to keep that in check to a certain degree.Spells scale. The lack of scaling in the UA spellpoint system was its major weakness, and a fatal flaw, one that made it nigh-unusable. Metamagic works just like with sorcerers (as I think it mentions somewhere). If you're like me, that means that they can use them normally. Otherwise, they need the increased casting time. *twitch**twitchtwitch* Like two (maybe three) days ago I was lookin' at the PDF and was like "Ya know. . . That'd make a cool class. . .":D Wondering what your thought process was as far as using a spell point system rather than keeping arcs as spell levels.Well, quite simply, the arc system was horribly broke. Spell points are much more balanced. A 9th-level spell is really worth a lot more than 9 1st-level spells. Also, does anything drastic happen if an arcanist's spellbook is destroyed?No. They have to buy a new one if they want to keep learning spells. But the spellbook is primarily a library for them. You should require them to study their books frequently, but this is a role-playing restriction with no mechanics attached. It is clear that you have put a lot of thought into this class. However, I would like to raise a couple questions for you to think about. 1) Like others have said, it is not clear how you would relate metamagic to this class. This needs to be cleared up, as metamagic is a big part of the game for spellcasters. Also, since the caster is casting spontaneously, will he still need the full round casting time, like sorcerers and other spontaneous casters?See above. 2) The 'fields' idea, while nice, is a little lacking, IMO. My suggestion would be to twink it a bit. Perhaps model them off the Shadow Weave Magic feat. Your field gives bonuses to schools in that field, and penalties to ones not in it.Well, it's essentially an extreme form of specialization. The huge penalty with no tangible benefits is a significant balancing point. 3) Someone compared this to psionics a couple posts back. Frankly, psionics are overpowered. When you got a 3rd level psion doing Mind Thrust for 40 damage, or something, it gets a little insane. This is one of the things I dislike about the spellpoint system, as it has the potential to make magic as overpowered as psionics. A heavy hit from the nerf bat, if you please.Such as? 4) This class, from what I've seen, has the major strengths of both the sorcerer and wizard classes, without their primary weaknesses. I haven't seen anything so far that balances this. As such, this class seems grossly overpowered.Well, they have the ability to know unlimited spells--but only a small number of those are actually usable effectively. Your list of "spells known" is really a lot smaller than a sorcerer or psion's. The rest are only accessable as a 1 1/2 round action, which I think balances it out. If it's still overpowered, field specialization and the fact that you only get one shot to learn a spell are also balancing points. Aside from which, it does have the wizard's weakness of fewer spells per day and the sorcerer's weakness of delayed spell acquisition.
Grigori 01-21-05, 02:40 PM	3) Someone compared this to psionics a couple posts back. Frankly, psionics are overpowered. When you got a 3rd level psion doing Mind Thrust for 40 damage, or something, it gets a little insane. This is one of the things I dislike about the spellpoint system, as it has the potential to make magic as overpowered as psionics. A heavy hit from the nerf bat, if you please. Ok, I can see a 3rd level Psion doing up to 3d10 damage from mind thrust... will save negates, DC would be 11 + modifier. With a range of 30' ft. But where are you getting 40? Tough, but not ridiculously nasty. It's all or nothing. That same psion is going to have 3d4 + 3 x con mod for HP and wouldn't survive more than a round or two of melee combat. Hell, a decent archer would kill him off before he became an issue. It looks nasty, but it's not quite half as bad as it seems. Powerful? Yes. Overpowered? Not really.
Grigori 01-21-05, 02:46 PM	Casting a spell requires a full-round action to concentrate on the Weave while visualizing the spell (which provokes attacks of opportunity). The spell forms in the arcanist’s mind at the beginning of the next turn and can be used immediately. If the arcanist does not cast the readied spell within a number of minutes equal to her level, it fades from her mind as if cast. The spells an arcanist can cast in this way are limited by her level (see Weave Depth, below). How many spells can an Arcanist have 'readied' at one time? 1 per caster level(20)? One per spell level (9)? One per point of intelligence modifier? If you can hold more than one, how much more difficult (DC for Concentration) is it to ready additional spells? +2 per additional spell readied? Since spells scale, what is the cost? Is there a 'standard' cost for scaling, or does it vary by spell? Instead of a full round action, could you spend extra arc to use a metamagic feat you know? i.e. if a metamagic feat would raise a spell by 2 levels it would increase the Arcs by 4? (2 arcs per level) Overall it looks more and more interesting, but it still needs to hammer out some rough spots.
Jaerom Darkwind 01-21-05, 03:40 PM	I've always considered the XPH Psion to be the ieal of balance. How many spells can an Arcanist have 'readied' at one time? 1 per caster level(20)? One per spell level (9)? One per point of intelligence modifier?1 If you can hold more than one, how much more difficult (DC for Concentration) is it to ready additional spells? +2 per additional spell readied?You can't. Since spells scale, what is the cost? Is there a 'standard' cost for scaling, or does it vary by spell? What? Spells scale in that they function just as in PHB. A fireball deals 1d6/level (max 10d6). Instead of a full round action, could you spend extra arc to use a metamagic feat you know? i.e. if a metamagic feat would raise a spell by 2 levels it would increase the Arcs by 4? (2 arcs per level)You require both. A fireball is a 3rd-level spell, and as such costs 5 arcs. An empowered fireball is effectively 5th-level, and as such costs 9 arcs. You still increase the casting time as normal (unless, like me, your DM decides that increased casting time for MM is stupid and doesn't enforce it for anyone). Overall it looks more and more interesting, but it still needs to hammer out some rough spots.Sorry, I thought I included an explanation of MM. It appears I didn't. I'll write one up and stick it in later today.
Grigori 01-21-05, 03:56 PM	Ok, I wasn't clear on the whole scaling thing. Does the cost scale? That is what balances a spell point system. i.e. a fireball dealing 10d6 for 5 spell points is rough, you're a fireball-o-matic. But if it deals 5d6 at 5th and it has a cost to scale it up, it balances out. i.e. the same fireball at 10th level would cost 15 for 10d6, but if you apply the level cap, it couldn't go past 10 (actual caster level) so you could pay 9 spell points to deal 7d6 damage. which at 8th level means about 8 fireballs as opposed to 14+, unless you cast at a lower level.
Jaerom Darkwind 01-21-05, 04:06 PM	I repeat, spell scaling is what breaks the spell point system. Destroys completely its validity and usefulness. At 10th level, you can pay 10 spell points for a 10d6 fireball (DC 13 + Int)--or pay 9 spell points for a 10d6 cone of cold (DC 15 + Int). Seems like a no-brainer to me. Spell scaling was a bad idea, completely incompatible with the DnD magic system.
dragoncc 01-21-05, 07:02 PM	Spell scaling was a bad idea, completely incompatible with the DnD magic system. :cheer: :w00t: :dancin: :clap: Well said, I'm glad someone else agrees with me on that one.
Grigori 01-21-05, 08:40 PM	I repeat, spell scaling is what breaks the spell point system. Destroys completely its validity and usefulness. At 10th level, you can pay 10 spell points for a 10d6 fireball (DC 13 + Int)--or pay 9 spell points for a 10d6 cone of cold (DC 15 + Int). Seems like a no-brainer to me. Spell scaling was a bad idea, completely incompatible with the DnD magic system. Which is fine to think until you meet up with something immune to cold. How is Spell scaling incompatible? Spell points give a much larger degree of versatility to a spellcaster, it is very easily abused. Especially with some lower level spells. The cure / harm issue is the most commonly cited example.
Jaerom Darkwind 01-21-05, 08:53 PM	Which is fine to think until you meet up with something immune to cold. Sorry, I meant cone of fire. How is Spell scaling incompatible? Spell points give a much larger degree of versatility to a spellcaster, it is very easily abused. Especially with some lower level spells. The cure / harm issue is the most commonly cited example.I think I just demonstrated how. Spells scale by level already, so by introducing an additional, artificial level of scaling, you simply make spells go obsolete faster. The fireball example demonstrates this clearly. Why spend 9 spell points for a DC 18 9d6 fireball when you can spend exactly the same for a DC 20 10d6 cone of fire? (Answer: you wouldn't.) Using a system exactly as it is intended does not constitute abuse. Of what "cure/harm issue" do you speak?
Grigori 01-22-05, 05:59 PM	Sorry, I meant cone of fire. I think I just demonstrated how. Spells scale by level already, so by introducing an additional, artificial level of scaling, you simply make spells go obsolete faster. The fireball example demonstrates this clearly. Why spend 9 spell points for a DC 18 9d6 fireball when you can spend exactly the same for a DC 20 10d6 cone of fire? (Answer: you wouldn't.) Using a system exactly as it is intended does not constitute abuse. Of what "cure/harm issue" do you speak? Er... ok... What book is cone of fire from? If you used cone of cold as an example, you'd be paying 7 for a 9d6 cone of cold as opposed to 9 for a 7d6 fireball. So if cone of fire and cone of cold are similar, why would you pay for the difference? In a word: Range. Cone shaped spells are only good for proximity, usually 30-60 ft, while the fireball spell could target anything within line of sight starting at 400 ft +40 ft/level. the cure/harm thing is this: Once you reach 5th level, you pay 1 to deal/cure 1d8 +5 points of damage. Where, if you have the time, is much more cost effective than paying for any of the higher level cure/harm spells.
Lana "Silvertongue" 01-22-05, 07:55 PM	Are they gaining 2 free spells like a wizard does or are they buying their spells to fill their spellbooks in their home library? Or do they have to buy every spell [might help for those people who feel like its overpowered]? So far I am undecided. I am waiting for the Lost Empires book to come out before I make any assessment on this.
Jaerom Darkwind 01-22-05, 08:34 PM	Er... ok... What book is cone of fire from? If you used cone of cold as an example, you'd be paying 7 for a 9d6 cone of cold as opposed to 9 for a 7d6 fireball. So if cone of fire and cone of cold are similar, why would you pay for the difference? In a word: Range. Cone shaped spells are only good for proximity, usually 30-60 ft, while the fireball spell could target anything within line of sight starting at 400 ft +40 ft/level. the cure/harm thing is this: Once you reach 5th level, you pay 1 to deal/cure 1d8 +5 points of damage. Where, if you have the time, is much more cost effective than paying for any of the higher level cure/harm spells.We'll assume a 5th-level fireball, to minimize extraneous details. Same radius, same range, etc. Let's call it a flameball. According to the DMG spell creation rules, a 5th-level area effect spell caps at 15d6 damage. According to the UA spell point rules, it costs 9 points. Since an arcanist gets 5th-level spells at 10, it deals 10d6 base, + 1d6/spell point caster level. Let's further assume a 20 Int arcanist, to keep things simple. So, a 9-point fireball deals 9d6 damage at DC 18 (10 + 3 + 5). A 9-point flameball deals 10d6 damage at DC 20. See the problem now? By requiring extra spell points to augment spells, you shorten their useful lives to about 2 character levels. If augmentation you're going to use, cut the costs dramatically. I see no problem with that"cure/harm" thing--that's the whole reason spell points exist, not a flaw in the system.
Jaerom Darkwind 01-28-05, 02:16 AM	:bump: :angelhide
Jaerom Darkwind 02-17-05, 02:03 PM	Lost Empires is out, and offered no competing arcanist class. Excellent.
Nephlite 02-17-05, 02:21 PM	It is clear that you have put a lot of thought into this class. However, I would like to raise a couple questions for you to think about. 1) Like others have said, it is not clear how you would relate metamagic to this class. This needs to be cleared up, as metamagic is a big part of the game for spellcasters. Also, since the caster is casting spontaneously, will he still need the full round casting time, like sorcerers and other spontaneous casters? He says you cast like the spell level slot it would be. Level 1 empowered cost what a Level 3 spell cost. And of course since Spontanous you take full-round to cast. (Add to that the Full round action to get spell in mind) 3) Someone compared this to psionics a couple posts back. Frankly, psionics are overpowered. When you got a 3rd level psion doing Mind Thrust for 40 damage, or something, it gets a little insane. This is one of the things I dislike about the spellpoint system, as it has the potential to make magic as overpowered as psionics. A heavy hit from the nerf bat, if you please. 4th level Psion can do 4d10, 3rd level can only do 3d10. Don't confuse people. By the way, Will Negate, also Psion must augment pp to upgrade damage by 3 points. He could be casting a 3nd or 3rd level spell (unaugmented) for same cost. 4) This class, from what I've seen, has the major strengths of both the sorcerer and wizard classes, without their primary weaknesses. I haven't seen anything so far that balances this. As such, this class seems grossly overpowered. What do you meab? First, the class has to waste a full round action to get spell. Than if he uses metamagic he has to spend another full-round action.(because spontabnousd casters have that penalty.) So to cast a Maximized Fireball you spend 2 Full-round actions. You can't use Quickened (anyway you still would waste Full-round action to draw up spell in mind). In fact, it worsens penalties for both classes. Takes even longer to use Metamagic and Must learn spells with spellbook. ----- But cool class in general other than drawbacks.
Otus 02-19-05, 04:34 PM	Looks cool :) A few things: There's a reason why divinations can't be selected as a prohibited school: all mages should have detect magic and alike available. IMO at least detect magic should be added to the universal field. How about quicken spell metamagic feat? Is an arcanist able to use it, or is he banned from using it like a sorcerer is? What's the point with Improved Metamagic not having an effetc on metamagic feats that only cost two arcs, if it reduces the cost to a minimum of 1? Of course it makes it less useful (=balanced?), but why isn't the minimum also 2 then?
Jaerom Darkwind 02-19-05, 07:53 PM	Looks cool :) A few things: There's a reason why divinations can't be selected as a prohibited school: all mages should have detect magic and alike available. IMO at least detect magic should be added to the universal field.Which is why I mentioned that the Universals are as per 3.0, not 3.5. I would even add a few that aren't Universal in 3.0 (such as contigency et al.) to the list. How about quicken spell metamagic feat? Is an arcanist able to use it, or is he banned from using it like a sorcerer is?Only able to use it under the conditions sorcerers are (which varies from campaign to campaign). What's the point with Improved Metamagic not having an effetc on metamagic feats that only cost two arcs, if it reduces the cost to a minimum of 1? Of course it makes it less useful (=balanced?), but why isn't the minimum also 2 then?Because a +2 arc cost is equivalent to a +1 level cost or a +2 PSP cost. Wizards and sorcerers have to have at least a +1 level increase, and so arcanists have to have at least a +2 arc cost.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-06-05, 04:16 PM	:rimshot:
Jaerom Darkwind 04-05-05, 04:02 AM	:bump:
Jaerom Darkwind 05-18-05, 08:25 PM	:ghosted:
Fuzzy_Logic 05-18-05, 10:05 PM	A very cool class. seriously weak in combat, but a great utility and buff mage. I wouldn't play it as the only arcane caster in a group, but it's obviously great when teamed with warmage. as for spell scaling, i don't think it's necessary for spellcasters. the UA spell point system shouldn't be used for wizards and other bae classes, because it increases their power level too much. this class I not overpowered, and spell scaling violates the principles behind D&D magic. now, for psionics, it makes sense, since it's built into the system as one fo the balancing factors. as for the whole mind thrust issue, ti's possible for a third level psion to do much mroe than 3d10 with a little work, but still not a balance issue. psionics are fine.
Arterion 05-21-05, 07:41 PM	It's a bit like Magelord and Mage of the Arcane Order combined, but with spell points. It seems balanced to me. The only thing I'd like to see, since they can't prepare spells, it's an ability or feat that gives them a very limited number of times per day to avoid the full-round action to cast a spell. Maybe require something like "Weave Focus" similar to psionic focus that they can expend to avoid the full-round a number of times per day, or a x/day like the Hathran class gets, or make it something like a metapsionic feat, where you have to spend more arcs to do it. Maybe quicken would allow them to cast the spell normally, and avoid the full-round action, OR have a "sudden spell" feat that let's them do it once per day, etc. It should be a limited number of times, but I think the option does need to be there. Otherwise I love the class!
Jaerom Darkwind 05-21-05, 08:29 PM	It's a bit like Magelord and Mage of the Arcane Order combined, but with spell points. It seems balanced to me. The only thing I'd like to see, since they can't prepare spells, it's an ability or feat that gives them a very limited number of times per day to avoid the full-round action to cast a spell. Maybe require something like "Weave Focus" similar to psionic focus that they can expend to avoid the full-round a number of times per day, or a x/day like the Hathran class gets, or make it something like a metapsionic feat, where you have to spend more arcs to do it. Maybe quicken would allow them to cast the spell normally, and avoid the full-round action, OR have a "sudden spell" feat that let's them do it once per day, etc. It should be a limited number of times, but I think the option does need to be there. Otherwise I love the class!You can always take Extra Spell to add a spell to your list of spells mastered.
Arterion 05-21-05, 08:31 PM	You can always take Extra Spell to add a spell to your list of spells mastered. Wouldn't it make more sense to just take Spell Mastery? ;p
Jaerom Darkwind 05-21-05, 08:44 PM	Spell Mastery is only for characters that prepare spells.
Parcival, the OrcHunter 07-21-05, 10:00 PM	I love your classes mon ami, but my question is with the arcanist: what effect does a ring of wizardry have?
Jaerom Darkwind 07-21-05, 10:26 PM	It would probably grant bonus arcs.
Verelor 07-24-05, 08:32 PM	Superb class as always. Truly, everyone from Merlin to Gandalf is no sort of wizard or sorcerer. They are all arcanists.
Eyeless Blond 07-25-05, 10:36 AM	An interesting class. It definately fits the flavor of the traditional fantasy mage better than either of WotC's versions, and seems fairly balanced. I do have a recommendation, however: Spells: An arcanist casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. An arcanist need not choose and prepare her spells ahead of time. Instead, she can cast any spell she has recorded in her spell library (see Spellbooks, below) simply by drawing energy from the Weave and shaping it appropriately. Casting a spell requires a full-round action to concentrate on the Weave while visualizing the spell (which provokes attacks of opportunity). The spell forms in the arcanist’s mind at the beginning of the next turn and can be used immediately. If the arcanist does not cast the readied spell within a number of minutes equal to her level, it fades from her mind as if cast. The spells an arcanist can cast in this way are limited by her level (see Weave Depth, below). An arcanist also has the ability to master a small number of spells as she advances, which must be drawn from her major field. When casting these spells, she need not spend a full-round action to form the spell in her mind. These spells are so familiar to her that she can cast them at a moment’s notice. [...] Spellbooks: An arcanist must learn spells before she can cast them, and part of this process is scribing them into her library of spellbooks. The process of scribing a spell is the same for an arcanist as it is with a wizard, with one exception: if an arcanist studies a spell and fails her Spellcraft check to learn it, that spell is out of her reach—forever. She can never attempt to learn the spell again, regardless of increased level or Spellcraft score, the use of wish or other spells, or any other method (though it’s possible that Mystra or another deity of magic could bypass this restriction by placing the spell directly in the arcanist’s mind). You mention how spellbooks for this arcanist are almost completely superfluous; they can essentially write a spell into a book, then burn the book, as they'll never need to refer to it again. An interesting consequence of this is you also completely negate the Spell Mastery feat, as the Arcanist *never* needs to access his spellbooks to ready or cast spells at all. Another issue is you are confusing the actions of casting a spell and readying a spell to be used. These actions really do need to be named differently. We can improve upon this, I think. Here is what I propose: Spells: An arcanist casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. An arcanist need not choose and prepare her spells ahead of time. Instead, she can form in her mind any spell she has recorded in her spell library (see Spellbooks, below) simply by drawing energy from the Weave and shaping it appropriately. Forming a spell requires a full-round action to concentrate on the Weave while visualizing the spell (which provokes attacks of opportunity). In order to form a spell, the arcanist must have be viewing a scribed version of the spell in a spellbook (see Spellbooks, below). If she is successful in forming the spell, it forms in the arcanist’s mind at the beginning of the next turn and can be used immediately; at this point the number of arcs the spell requires to cast are deducted from her daily total. If the arcanist does not cast the readied spell within a number of minutes equal to five times her level, it fades from her mind as if cast. The spells an arcanist can cast in this way are limited by her level (see Weave Depth, below). Many arcanists will spend some time forming several spells in their minds, which allows them quick access to a variety of spells; some theorize this process was later adapted into the wizard's method of daily spell preparation. An arcanist also has the ability to master a small number of spells as she advances, which must be drawn from her major field. When casting these spells, she need not spend a full-round action to form the spell in her mind, and thus does not require access to a scribed version of the spell. These spells are so familiar to her that she can cast them at a moment’s notice. [and on to spellbooks] Spellbooks: An arcanist must learn spells before she can cast them, and part of this process is scribing them into her library of spellbooks. The process of scribing a spell is the same for an arcanist as it is with a wizard, with one exception: if an arcanist studies a spell and fails her Spellcraft check to learn it, that spell is out of her reach until she gains another rank in Spellcraft, just as with a wizard. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll. In order for an arcanist to form a spell in her mind, other than the ones she has mastered through either her class abilities or the Spell Mastery feat, she must be viewing a scribed version of that spell. Usually the scribed version is one from her own spellbook; if this is the case then she can form the spell flawlessly. Occasionally, however, an arcanist must prepare a spell from the spellbook of another arcanist. If this is the case, when attempting to form the spell she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 25 + 2 * spell’s level). If she fails this check then the spell fails to form, and that spell cannot be attempted to be formed from that book for 24 hours, though no arcs are spent. As another option, an arcanist can take the Spell Mastery feat. As with when a wizard takes this feat, the arcanist's chosen spells can be formed without access to a spellbook. These spells, however, are still not as innate as the arcanist's other mastered spells; she still must form them in her mind before casting, though she requires no spellbook to do so. So basically the idea is the same as yours, except that in this idea the arcanist must actually be looking at the scribed spell in order to ready it to be cast. I like the flavor of this; you'll sometimes end up with a mage frantically flipping through his spellbook as a golem barrels down on the party, which is a beautiful image in its own right. :) To balance the fact that the book is essentially a focus for the arcanist's spells, I removed a few of the penalties on the spellbook, allowed the arcanist to form spells from stolen spellbooks, and had the formed spells persist just a little longer than before. Here's what I like about this idea: 1) Makes spellbooks something that need to be carried around again, or at least referred to once in awhile. A truly dedicated arcanist can take Spell Mastery a bunch of times and thereby never need his spellbooks, but this would be a big sacrifice to make. 2) Brings back that oh-so-cool flavor factor of stealing an enemy's library and turning his spells back on him. Notice there was no way for the original arcanist to do this, which IMO was always one of the funnest parts of playing a wizard. 3) Provides a small penalty for the arcanist so we can backpedal on that "if you fail the check you can *never* learn the spell again" clause, which I did not like at all. 4) Really made the guy look like a precursor of both wizards and sorcerers. Notice how you have a bit of the preparing spells flavor that wizards have, though you don't have the ability to keep them prepared all day like a wiz can. You have the ability to toss around spells on the fly, but not as many or as varied as a sorcerer. It's easy to see how the two classes could've grown out of this one, as was mentioned in the flavor text. 5) He's balanced with a wiz or a sorcerer--at least, I *think* he is--but he's far more fun to play. 6) I cleared up the "casting a spell in order to cast the spell" confusion by calling the first action "Forming" the spell. This I think is a bit more clear than before, where you were using a full-round action to "cast" a spell, at which point the spell is not actually cast but instead appears in your mind later on, ready to be cast. :)
Eyeless Blond 07-25-05, 10:55 AM	Oh, and my idea also ditches the (implied, but not actually stated) idea of an arcanist only being able to have one formed spell at a time. Honestly I don't see why the arcanist couldn't have all his spells formed at once, with the caveat that in about an hour he loses them all and can't get any more until tomorow. :)
Jaerom Darkwind 07-25-05, 03:47 PM	Hmmm... I don't like it. The only mage in all of the fantasy literature I've ever read who casts spells directly from spellbooks is Raitslin, and I didn't like it that much when he did it, either. For most fantasy wizards, spells are something you learn in your library back at your tower or academy, and then you know them forever. The original mechanics represent this. As to forming v casting, good point. I'll also state some sort of limit on how many spells you can have in your mind at once (Int modifier, I think). Your changes are workable, but I don't like the flavor.
Eyeless Blond 07-25-05, 04:59 PM	I still think my idea makes more sense for a historical precursor of the current wiz/sorc classes, but I see your point as well. Still though, your arcanist needs some method of forgetting the spells he merely "knows" and hasn't actually mastered. As it stands there's no reason for an arcanist to maintain a library at all; he can essentially scribe his spells and then immediately burn the book he scribed them into, as he'll never need to read it again. I really can't think of a way to do that, though, other than the one I just mentioned. What do you think?
Jaerom Darkwind 07-25-05, 05:38 PM	I still think my idea makes more sense for a historical precursor of the current wiz/sorc classes, but I see your point as well.Well, see, if you include this class the wizard and sorcerer don't need to exist. So relating the three is completely unnecessary. Still though, your arcanist needs some method of forgetting the spells he merely "knows" and hasn't actually mastered. As it stands there's no reason for an arcanist to maintain a library at all; he can essentially scribe his spells and then immediately burn the book he scribed them into, as he'll never need to read it again.This is a problem? I don't have half of the text books I've used, but the knowledge I gained from them hasn't evaporated because of it. Once the game mechanics are served by expending time and resources to scribe the spell, the books become role-playing tools, nothing more.
Eyeless Blond 07-25-05, 06:02 PM	Well, see, if you include this class the wizard and sorcerer don't need to exist. So relating the three is completely unnecessary.Well you had mentioned that the class was a predecessor of sorts to "modern" wizards and sorcerers. But anyway that's wholly a flavor issue, and basically irrelevant to the argument. This is a problem? I don't have half of the text books I've used, but the knowledge I gained from them hasn't evaporated because of it. Once the game mechanics are served by expending time and resources to scribe the spell, the books become role-playing tools, nothing more.Well on that note why force the arcanist to scribe the spells down at all? Why not just have him make a Spellcraft check to see if he understands the spell, and if he can, why, then he just does, no scribbling in a spellbook necessary? It doesn't really make much sense to force the arcanist to specifically scribe his spells in a spellbook, and then never have to refer back to those writings at any point in the future. To extend your analogy about textbooks, I sincerely doubt that you copied, word for word, everything you read in those books in order to understand them. My point is that you really need to pick one or the other: either the physical scribing of spells in the arcanist's spellbook is itself inherently significant, and thus should be kept around for later purposes, or the scribing itself is unimportant and thus unnecessary. If the later case then there should be some other form of sacrifice required to learn all these spells; the arcanist should certainly not be learning all their spells for *free*.
Jaerom Darkwind 07-25-05, 06:10 PM	The scribing is important because it costs time and money. It also requires a more in-depth study than just reading it. If I had copied those text books down word-for-word, I'd certainly know them more intimately.
Eyeless Blond 07-27-05, 11:58 AM	Yeah, but still the idea of a wizard simply getting rid of his spellbooks after spending all that time scribing them, then just ditching the books becaust thay have no further value seems... wrong somehow. Here's another idea, added to the Spells section: Because arcane magic is so complicated and difficult to master, it is no surprise that arcanists may have a difficult time retaining their total spell knowledge. Every day, at the same time the arcanist refreshes his Arc pool, there is a small chance that he may no longer remember how to perform a particular spell he once knew. Roll d%; the percent chance of this occuring is equal to the total number of spells that the arcanist knows minus her Intelligence score, minimum 1% maximum 99%. The spell lost is completely up to the DM, though it is suggested that it be determined randomly. A spell that has ben mastered cannot be forgotten in this way; such spells are far too innate to be lost through forgetfulness. Spells that are lost in this way are easy to recover at first. Simply reviewing the arcanist's own scribed form of the spell (see Spellbooks, below) for 15 minutes is enough to refresh her memory and give her access to the spell once again. If she does not review the spell, however, this review period increases by 15 minutes for every day the spell has been forgotten until the time reaches two hours; after that point the spell must be re-learned from scratch. For this reason most arcanists try to keep libraries of their learned spells, and will put up a furitive search for written spells that have been lost. That (or something like it) sound like it would work?
Verelor 07-27-05, 03:08 PM	I really like the sound of this, eyeless. We'll just have to wait and see if Jaerom shares my opinion. The roleplaying in my games is intense, though, and if my player allowed his character to outright throw away spellbooks spells have been scribed to simply because it wasn't game-mechinically necessary not to, he'd be shown the door, if not thrown out.
Eyeless Blond 07-27-05, 03:40 PM	Well actually there is still a good reason for burning your spellboods: namely thieves. See, let's say you've spent 5 years researching this great Spell of Ultimate Power™ or something. Now that you know the spell you don't want anyone else learning it and turning it against you, especially since you spent a lot of time working on it. So you make sure to destroy all records about it, even your own scribed version of the spell, etc etc. Before you could do that with all your spellbooks. With my idea you still can, though you'll eventually forget all the spells you aren't intimtely familiar with.
Jaerom Darkwind 07-27-05, 06:44 PM	Honestly, I think this is the sort of thing that should be handled through role-play, not mechanics. Any arcanist I ever play will obviously spend her downtime going over her books and studying arcane theory and whatnot. There will be no burning of spellbooks just because I'm running out of room in my study. So once again, this mechanic would probably work fine in your game, but I don't see it as being a common enough issue to warrant a change to the class.
Karsus the Mad 07-27-05, 07:03 PM	NEoM says arcanist still needed to review their spellbooks from time to time. Maybe make it that they can retain all their spells for a number of days equal to 3 plus their caster level. When the time has lapsed, they need to study their spellbooks again, and make it where it takes a certain amount of time per spell level of the spell to fully remember it. This could lead to very large amounts of time studying.
Jaerom Darkwind 07-27-05, 07:48 PM	:rolleyes: And then eventually the arcanist will have to spend every waking moment studying, and even then will forget the first spells she studies before she finishes the last ones. I don't think so.
Karsus the Mad 07-27-05, 07:58 PM	And then eventually the arcanist will have to spend every waking moment studying, and even then will forget the first spells she studies before she finishes the last ones. I don't think so. Then there's absolutely no point in keeping spellbooks after they've gotten full because it's impossible to ever forget any spell you've ever learned, even if 1,000 years have passed and you've learned thousands, you can still remember every little required component, gesture, and phrase. Memory doesn't work that way, not even photographic memory. Memory fails, people forget and mix up memories, etc. Instead of a number of days equal to caster level, maybe a number of months equal to Int mod or something along those lines.
Nephlite 07-27-05, 09:00 PM	Then there's absolutely no point in keeping spellbooks after they've gotten full because it's impossible to ever forget any spell you've ever learned, even if 1,000 years have passed and you've learned thousands, you can still remember every little required component, gesture, and phrase. Memory doesn't work that way, not even photographic memory. Memory fails, people forget and mix up memories, etc. Instead of a number of days equal to caster level, maybe a number of months equal to Int mod or something along those lines. If the Arcanist becomes Psionic and gets cross skills or class skill in Autohypnosis he can store memories with a DC of things.
Karsus the Mad 07-27-05, 09:05 PM	If the Arcanist becomes Psionic and gets cross skills or class skill in Autohypnosis he can store memories with a DC of things. If
Jaerom Darkwind 07-27-05, 11:43 PM	Then there's absolutely no point in keeping spellbooks after they've gotten full because it's impossible to ever forget any spell you've ever learned, even if 1,000 years have passed and you've learned thousands, you can still remember every little required component, gesture, and phrase. Memory doesn't work that way, not even photographic memory. Memory fails, people forget and mix up memories, etc. Instead of a number of days equal to caster level, maybe a number of months equal to Int mod or something along those lines.Once again, this is the domain of role-play, not mechanics. And since there are no restricted skills, anyone can learn Autohypnosis, not judt psionic characters.
Karsus the Mad 07-28-05, 04:59 AM	Once again, this is the domain of role-play, not mechanics. Sentimental value to the arcanist?
Eyeless Blond 07-28-05, 10:03 AM	Once again, this is the domain of role-play, not mechanics. Mm, I don't know how comfortable I am with that. Trying to balance a class based on implied roleplaying restrictions, without the class mechanics even suggesting that such a restriction should be in place is an open invitation for abuse. And here I'm not just talking about abuse by the players; when you give the DM a free hand in adding restrictions to a class at a whim you can occasionally end up with the DM overcompensating and hosing the player, either by accident or on purpose. This is why D&D classes tend to be as explicit as is possibly convenient when defining a class; why bother using your ideas if your idea is to tell the DM to do all the creative work? But it's your class, I guess.
Jaerom Darkwind 07-28-05, 12:49 PM	Mm, I don't know how comfortable I am with that. Trying to balance a class based on implied roleplaying restrictions, without the class mechanics even suggesting that such a restriction should be in place is an open invitation for abuse. And here I'm not just talking about abuse by the players; when you give the DM a free hand in adding restrictions to a class at a whim you can occasionally end up with the DM overcompensating and hosing the player, either by accident or on purpose. This is why D&D classes tend to be as explicit as is possibly convenient when defining a class; why bother using your ideas if your idea is to tell the DM to do all the creative work? But it's your class, I guess.Mechanics exist to bring about game balance. A paladin has an explicit code of conduct to balance the extra power of the class (well, my paladin has extra power, the PHB class is just gimped by it). A monk does not have a code of conduct, despite the fact that an argument could be made for one, because there's no balance issue to resolve. A cleric does have a code of conduct, but because there's no balance issues to resolve (as far as the designers are concerned :rolleyes: ), that code of conduct is only briefly mentioned, and left to the DM to define. Nothing that's been said so far has convinced me of a balance issue here. The objection has been "players are just going to burn their spellbooks when they write them." This is an issue of player stupidity, not game balance. Mechanics don't solve player stupidity--only DMs can do that. An arcanist knowing unlimited spells, which was brought up as an incidental point, is not a balance problem either. The class was conceived and designed with that in mind. All a concerned DM would need to do to limit this is to limit how many spells the arcanist encounters (the same as with a wizard or an erudite). But that's not necessary, since the class is balanced with unlimited spells in mind. I have no problem adding mechanics, but I don't like cluttering up a class with unnecessary mechanics. The original Netherese Arcanist class that started this project merely included the statement that an arcanist still consulted her spellbooks occasionally, and left it at that. That's the right approach, in my opinion.
Octal40 07-29-05, 01:27 AM	Have you thought about allowing for mastery of 0-Level spells? It seems odd that none could be mastered. Perhaps allowing for 1 + ( 1/2 * Weave depth, rounded down) or something? I just feel that it's odd that an arcanist would have to spend a full round + standard action to cast such a trivial spell.
Eyeless Blond 07-29-05, 10:52 AM	Nothing that's been said so far has convinced me of a balance issue here. The objection has been "players are just going to burn their spellbooks when they write them." This is an issue of player stupidity, not game balance. Mechanics don't solve player stupidity--only DMs can do that. Well not exactly. The objection is more that metagaming rule lawyers gain a tangible benefit, or more precisely lose a weakness, for strictly reading the class--no reliance on spellbooks after scribing--that the roleplayers do not share. So in essence you are rewarding a player for arguing with his DM and not playing the class as it was intended to be played.
Eyeless Blond 07-29-05, 10:53 AM	An arcanist masters 20 spells over the course of his career. If you so chose I guess you could select a few cantrips out of that list, though the only one I'd ever bother with is maybe Message, being the best 0-level spell ever in existence.
elvenwizard 08-01-05, 09:40 PM	A very cool class. seriously weak in combat, but a great utility and buff mage. I wouldn't say that it is weak in combat. An "Inventor" arcanist could choose evocations like fireball as his mastered spells. Even an arcanist without access to invention could be a potent combatant if done properly. My personal choice would be a Variator with mastered necromancies+disintegrate. Complete Arcane has several good necromancy spells such as Burning Blood and Blackfire. A Mentalist would be able to use Shadow Evocation to excellent effect in battle, as well as Hold spells. One suggestion that I would make for the Arcanist would be to make Charisma the primary ability instead of Intelligence. This would be a balancing factor in that the class would not have the perk of extra skill points, and none of the Arcanist's skills are charisma based. Also, it is thematically appropriate, since the Arcanist casts spells not by memorizing formulae, but by manipulating the Weave by strength of will. All in all, this is an excellent class. It represents the "Quintessential Fantasy Wizard," and has a great 'Ged of Earthsea,' 'Gandalf the Grey,' and, dare I say it, 'Potteresque' feel to it. Great job!
ArochanoX 08-02-05, 03:39 AM	How about you used spellbooks like this: "You must memorize spells each day from your spellbooks. You can memorize up to your casterlevel number of spells of any level (though to the maximum of your weave depth). After memorized you can cast any of those spells spontaneously. This memorization requires 1 hour of time. If you don't memorize spells, you lose 2 spells of your highest level memorized (to the minimum of 0). You gain the lost spells when you memorize again your spells." This is much like spirit shaman from complete divine.
slade_caizer 09-25-05, 01:26 PM	I repeat, spell scaling is what breaks the spell point system. Destroys completely its validity and usefulness. At 10th level, you can pay 10 spell points for a 10d6 fireball (DC 13 + Int)--or pay 9 spell points for a 10d6 cone of cold (DC 15 + Int). Seems like a no-brainer to me. Spell scaling was a bad idea, completely incompatible with the DnD magic system.I fail to see how it was a bad idea. It makes the higher level powers more attractive. The more the higher-level powers cost, the quicker the pool is depleted. Of course that assumes that players use the more attractive powers. They could use the not so nice ones and deplete their pools as quickly, unless they don't augment in which case they're pulling their punches. Without the need to augment, your points stretch a lot farther and last longer. It's the equivalent of handing out free spell slots as levels increase. The full round prep time was extremely inventive. I like it. Unfortunately it removes all of my interest in the class (as a player), but I admire your resourcefulness (as a DM). I very much liked the way you categorized magic. Not knowing much in the way of details about the setting whence you got much of the flavor for the class, I was quite impressed and pleased. I immediately started thinking "which schools could I afford to lose and still keep the flavor I want for X idea?" Over all, nice job. The XPH and UA have served you well.
Jaerom Darkwind 09-25-05, 02:01 PM	I fail to see how it was a bad idea. It makes the higher level powers more attractive. The more the higher-level powers cost, the quicker the pool is depleted. Of course that assumes that players use the more attractive powers. They could use the not so nice ones and deplete their pools as quickly, unless they don't augment in which case they're pulling their punches. Without the need to augment, your points stretch a lot farther and last longer. It's the equivalent of handing out free spell slots as levels increase. Higher level powers, as I just demonstrated, are attractive because of their increased DCs and their increased capacity for damage. A fireball caps at 10d6 and is a DC 13, whereas a cone of cold caps at 15d6 and is DC 15. That's enough for me to use the higher-leveled version. And even if it is "handing out free spell slots", I'm not convinced that it unbalances anything. The full round prep time was extremely inventive. I like it. Unfortunately it removes all of my interest in the class (as a player), but I admire your resourcefulness (as a DM).How many spells do you find yourself needing to cast in a hurry? Pick 20 good offensive battle-spells, and you'll still have an infinite number of utility and buff spells to use out of battle.
slade_caizer 09-25-05, 02:08 PM	How many spells do you find yourself needing to cast in a hurry? About 70-80% of all the spells I cast. Most often it's not due to battle, but rather a trap or a time-sensitive issue of plot. Of course my percentage is probably skewed slightly. When it's possible and reasonable to do something without magic, I do so that I conserve my resources. Certainly, battle isn't the only consideration. I just didn't like the flavor of needing to take so long. It's not so much a mechanics issue, just a personal quirk.
Jaerom Darkwind 09-25-05, 02:16 PM	Well, I guess that if you're never in a position you take an extra 6 seconds to cast a spell, that's that. I suppose you don't play sorcerers, either.
slade_caizer 09-25-05, 02:19 PM	Well, I guess that if you're never in a position you take an extra 6 seconds to cast a spell, that's that. I suppose you don't play sorcerers, either.Since my first year of play, I always choose Sorcerer over Wizard. They mesh better with me than do the Wizards. The metamagic delay at least lets me act every round as opposed to every other round.
Lalkin 09-25-05, 02:26 PM	I really like the flavor and precieved balance of this class. Good job. (Precieved balance I said since I'd want to play one before saying it really is balanced. :D ) As for the people who think there should be a hard and fast rule regarding the spellbooks just put it in. I think a roleplaying need is fine personally but i do understand some people don't. Or another thought you could rule that to level you must spend a day or two pouring over your books. Much like the optional training rules in the DMG. Anyways, thanks for writing up this class. Nice job. :P
Clownaveli 10-15-05, 12:42 AM	I really like the flavor and precieved balance of this class. Good job. (Precieved balance I said since I'd want to play one before saying it really is balanced. :D ) As for the people who think there should be a hard and fast rule regarding the spellbooks just put it in. I think a roleplaying need is fine personally but i do understand some people don't. Or another thought you could rule that to level you must spend a day or two pouring over your books. Much like the optional training rules in the DMG. Anyways, thanks for writing up this class. Nice job. :P I have to agree this class is really good
savant_warlord13 11-06-05, 04:29 PM	It's nothing more than an arcane version of the psion from the unexpanded psionics handbook!
Jaerom Darkwind 11-06-05, 06:16 PM	Not really. I didn't even reference the psion when I built this. It's constructed using only NEoM, PHB, and UA.
Nephlite 11-06-05, 06:37 PM	It's nothing more than an arcane version of the psion from the unexpanded psionics handbook! Nope, the the cantrip idea is closer to 3.0 Psionics (Equivalent at least). And why do you say unexpanded? I'd say XPH is very much a expanded version. Sure a few powers like Mind Blast took a nerf (Psionic Blast sucks in my opinion as a replacement), but over all a better game booklet.
Draegun Fury 03-03-06, 03:01 AM	Sorry for resurecting the thread, First of all I have to say I love the class... ...however... ...As a Player/DM who already thinks magic/Spellcasters are overpowered, I have to say I am a little concerned over the balance of your class. The potential for abuse is overwhealming, I mean, the ability to cast 15 odd 8th level spells a day, or 13 9th level spells is crazy. Espeacially when (as far as I can tell) there is nothing stopping the arcanist from holding onto his Spell Mastered slots and spend all 20 on high end offensive/dfensive spells, (espeacially when considering the potnential of custom spells, no matter how "balanced"). Anyway the reason I've resurrected the thread is to ask if anyone over the last 9 or so months has incorperated the class into their games and if so, how did it handle? Was it balanced? Overpowered? Underpowered? etc. etc. I can't help but compare it to the psion, and in doing so it seems grossly overpowered.. any thoughts and/or comments would be appeciated. Cheers.
Archmagi1976 03-03-06, 03:23 AM	What makes this class any different from a Psionic class? They use power points, virtually the same style of abillities (spells) so in truth in my eyes it then takes something away from a Psion. On a side note, lower spell level spells may sound and be difficult to use... But all it takes is a little creative working. I remember a quote from something I either read or saw the line goes. "I would drop my rock on him..." To the laughter of the entire gaming party including the DM (who was in tears from laughing) I was able to use that line as I cast a 1st level Acid Orb at a rope holding back a ton of rocks in an underground cavern. It did not kill the beast, but it sure ****** it off, hurt it and made it laugh hard (since the DM could not tell us what the creature was doing due to the laughter coming from his mouth.) To take a spell caster as is can be a difficult feat, they are not as straight forward as a fighter but can be as creative as a rogue and just as deadly. "Know your suroundings Grasshopper..." Archmagi
Muthuzilah 04-23-06, 08:23 PM	Anyway the reason I've resurrected the thread is to ask if anyone over the last 9 or so months has incorperated the class into their games and if so, how did it handle? Was it balanced? Overpowered? Underpowered? etc. etc. About 6 months back My Group had an arc mage modeled off the original neth arcs. But the dm had Mystra put some serious limits on the abilities and most of the gods dealing with magic had a VERY close eye on the character! One wrong move and POOF! ! ! Being a good aligned character and an experienced player did help the matter considerably too though. Though I will admit I like your set up better Jaerom. It is more true to the original as you said. Since I am in the forums, I know this is totally off topic but does anyone know of a good epic level character generator or if one is slated to be released in the somewhat near future? Have a couple characters I would like to put in a database of some sort for quick reference and change. Thanks, Muthuzilah
Voldar_Mecorthio 05-22-06, 07:40 PM	:clap: that class is AWESOME!!!! I'm gonna use it. I have a wizard/incantatrix, and I'm gonna convert him to an arcanist. Thank you! :bow: :king: <-- you
Rim-Soulfang 06-25-06, 05:07 PM	What is this NEoM book that has been mentioned several times as a source of information and inspiration on this subject?
Roxlimn 06-25-06, 08:21 PM	Casting a spell is a two-step process that requires the arcanist to first form the spell in her mind. This involves a full-round action to concentrate on the Weave while visualizing the spell (which provokes attacks of opportunity). The spell forms in the arcanist’s mind at the beginning of the next turn and can be used immediately. When making mechanics, best to leave out the flavor as much as possible and concentrate on, well, mechanics. Rewording the above: Casting a spell is a two step process that first requires the arcanist to prepare the spell beforehand. This involves a Concentration check (DC?) as a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. The arcanist will be able to cast the spell at the beginning of her next turn (turns are for individuals, the entire cycle of turns can be referred to as a "round." When you say "immediately," do you mean a free action, a swift action, a standard action or an immediate action?) Furthermore, I'm a bit wary of autoscaling (which Psionics do not have) married with Wizard Spells Known (which Psions do not have, either) and magical metamagic (which Psions don't have access to). Spells don't work with Psionic systems because (as I said before when 3.0 Psionics was in the process of discussion) the fundamental nature of the system demands reworked spells (and powers). For the same reason, the Sorcerer is so fundamentally hard to marry to the Vancian type of spells. That doesn't mean that it's preferrable to just dump Psion limitations altogether. The metapsionic cap and metapsionics is one of these important limiters. I've said before XPH was released that if the Wheel of Time model is to be used (and it was) that spells and powers would need to be fundamentally reworked and that metamagic would be hard to include and justify. Metamagic in the Vancian systems is used for two things: to scale spells that otherwise don't, and to increase the range of particular spells in function. You have no need for these things in Psionic point systems. A spell that autoscales by level would be much more powerful when you Empower it, Enlarge it, or Extend it, far more powerful than the spell level used to expend it would indicate, depending on the spell involved. For example, a Scorching Ray at 11th level, if Empowered, would entail 18d6 points of damage equivalent. Very strong. Arguably too strong. It's OK for Sorcerers because they have limited feats and Spells Known, but for an Arcanist, it would be a different story. Aside from cleaning up the wording on many mechanics, I suggest also rethinking metamagic application.
Karsus the Mad 06-27-06, 05:24 AM	What is this NEoM book that has been mentioned several times as a source of information and inspiration on this subject? It's a 2e Arcane Age setting for the Forgotten Realms. You can download it free right here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads) :)
Lucan_Desmond 07-01-06, 12:47 AM	I just found this thread for the first time. I'm really suprised I've missed it since its so similar to the class I created (in my sig). Really cool! Good job JD! Later, Des
klode_me 07-04-06, 11:04 AM	Where is the spell Karsus's Avatar? Nice class too. I'm gona ask my DM if I may play it sometime. This looks alot more like Elminster and other wizards in Novels. Cheers klode_me
Dragonmann 08-14-06, 01:26 PM	I read this for the first time today, and I like what I see, mostly. In regards to the value of carrying spell books vs storing them vs burning them, how about something like: An arcanist may at any time study spell books he has scribed in order to refresh his memory, and reinforce his connection with the Weave. It takes 15 minutes to study 20 levels of spells. Doing so grants the arcanist temporary arcs equal to his intelligence modifier for each period spent studying. These temporary arcs last until the arcanist rests next to recover his normal arcs. This gives a good reason to keep spell books around, not off in a tower somewhere, and deffinetly not burnt, but it is not so powerful that an arcanist is suddenly completely out of balance. It would also be nifty in my opinion to see a system which gave the arcanist an unprecedented ability to bend spells. Kind of like an inherent metamagic class feature. Not sure what the balance point would be, but something like 2 arcs for a minor spell change, that couldn't be produced metamagically. This is really hard to explain, so bear with me. An arcanist wouldn't beable to turn a fireball into an ice ball, because that is energy substitution. But could spend 2 points to, instead of throwing a small ball towards the target, create a small bee, who flys towards the target, and stings them, causeing the explosion. 1 Arc could be a minor visual change (Continual flame replaced by continual lightning) 2 Arcs (or more) for minor effect changes (the bee example above) etc. I admit I am talking out my arse, but it would be a cool and characterful ability. It doesn't specifically say in the description that once called to memory a spell is cast as a standard action or as it is normally cast, or whatever. It does say it can be used immediately, which is a dangerous term in light of the "immediate" action from later books. The implication here is that a arcanist with int 18, could spend 3 rounds calling up 3 fireballs, and then in the fourth round, before the first fades, unleash them all at once. I am just wondering if this was the intent.
Karsus the Mad 08-15-06, 10:28 PM	Where is the spell Karsus's Avatar? Netheril: Empire of Magic (which can be downloaded for free on the wizards site) and Faiths and Avatars (or Powers and Pantheons). Both 2e books.
Voldar_Mecorthio 11-13-06, 06:43 PM	would you mind posting a link? I can't find Netheril: Empire of Magic
Kaldar_the_Summoner 12-11-06, 03:39 PM	This fits almost perfectly into a Dragonlance Campaign. If one were to change the Discipline to Robe Color (Nuitari, Lunitari, and Solinari) and place their favored schools in there, it would be perfect. Thank you for making this.