Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kyutip 10-15-06, 11:14 PM	looking at the class im not seeing why its considered to be so strong. so what am i missing?
Yosho 10-16-06, 12:23 AM	I think its because they can get every divine spell in the game and some arcane spells that are writen as divine spells.
Ariath Ska'Vhor 10-16-06, 12:57 AM	I think its because they can get every divine spell in the game and some arcane spells that are writen as divine spells. you mean like clerics?
Lotus Crane 10-16-06, 01:41 AM	you mean like clerics? No, not quite. Clerics can only cast cleric spells, plus a handful of arcane spells from the two domains they have access to. On the other hand, depending on how restrictive or lenient a DM is, an archivist can cast cleric spells, druid spells, paladin and ranger spells, and most arcane spells as well, since they potentially have access to every domain, rather than just two. That is why some people view the archivist as being even more powerful than the cleric, under the right circumstances.
Mouseferatu 10-16-06, 02:14 AM	That is why some people view the archivist as being even more powerful than the cleric, under the right circumstances. For what it's worth, I worked with C.A. Suleiman--the writer who created the archivist--on Heroes of Horror (as well as many other books). And I can assure that he never intended that the archivist be allowed to choose spells from the clerical domains. Unfortunately, that distinction was not made clear in the text, but there it is.
Lotus Crane 10-16-06, 05:41 AM	For what it's worth, I worked with C.A. Suleiman--the writer who created the archivist--on Heroes of Horror (as well as many other books). And I can assure that he never intended that the archivist be allowed to choose spells from the clerical domains. Unfortunately, that distinction was not made clear in the text, but there it is. Hmm alright, I'm willing to believe that. But if your friend created the archivist in the first place, doesn't he have some kind of influence to the effect of getting WotC to issue an official errata or FAQ for Heroes of Horror that makes what you just explained to me, explicit?
El_Machinae 10-16-06, 06:55 AM	But ... if you do that ... what about all the players who gleefully giggle at the class's potential, and then never see it because the DM doesn't give them access to all the spells they want?
Mouseferatu 10-16-06, 01:11 PM	Hmm alright, I'm willing to believe that. But if your friend created the archivist in the first place, doesn't he have some kind of influence to the effect of getting WotC to issue an official errata or FAQ for Heroes of Horror that makes what you just explained to me, explicit? Nope. Once we turn stuff in, we have no more influence over it than anyone else. I can tell you what he intended, because we've talked about it, but it's entirely up to the good folks in the company if there's ever any errata to that effect.
Mouseferatu 10-16-06, 01:21 PM	It's also important to understand that "author's intention," while a good baseline to work from, is rarely the final answer to any question like this. Remember that everything we turn in goes through the development team, and changes often ensue. It's entirely possible for a spell, PrC, feat, or whatever to be changed--in whole or in part--by the time it sees print. It's possible for development to have a very different view of what a new mechanic should or should not be able to do, so the author's original intent may or may not have any real bearing on the final product.
JulesCARV 10-16-06, 02:14 PM	I think that the big issue is that archivists' dark knowledge DCs are static, an unrelated to the hit dice, CR, or anything but type of the enemy. A DC 35 Dark Knowledge check can stun any magical beast, undead, aberration, outsider, or elemental, from a simple skeleton to a pit fiend, with no save or spell resistance.
kyutip 10-16-06, 09:39 PM	doesnt freedom of movement make you immune to stun? when the spell becomes available i try to cast it or have it cast whenever i can. and the ring is one magic item i often go out of my way to try and find though im not always succesful. ;)
Lotus Crane 10-16-06, 09:48 PM	doesnt freedom of movement make you immune to stun? No, it doesn't. Dazing and stunning effect prevent action outright, rather than merely impeding movement like the other effects listed in freedom of movement's entry.
kyutip 10-16-06, 10:00 PM	the spell says "This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web." id have to say that being stunned equates to being paralyzed. am i wrong?
Mouseferatu 10-16-06, 10:12 PM	id have to say that being stunned equates to being paralyzed. am i wrong? I'm afraid you are. Paralysis is a physical condition, and thus is among those that the spell protects against. Stunning is mental, at least in part, even though it's not a "mind-affecting effect" per se. Paralysis impedes movement (in fact, it prevents it entirely). Stunning prevents actions. You're not physically impeded, so much as mentally.
kyutip 10-16-06, 10:19 PM	i stand corrected;)
JulesCARV 10-16-06, 11:22 PM	I think that an archivist is powerful, overall, but probably not as powerful as a druid or divine metamagic-using cleric. It can't turn or rebuke undead, nor can it spontaneously cure, summon, or inflict. It doesn't get domains to start out. It can't wildshape. I think Dark Knowledge is interesting, because it's a sort of opposite of sneak attack. Dark knowledge applies to some creatures which are immune to SA (elementals and undead), but can't apply to basic humanoids and similar enemies, basically the opposite of the rogue. Of course, constructs are immune to both dark knowledge and sneak attack. The most abusable spell list for an archivist is probably the NPC adept.
Bopple 10-17-06, 09:32 AM	Domain? There are PrC's. Turn Undead? There are PrC's Spontaneous Healing or Summoning? There are PrC and feat. Archivist can be more powerful than clerics, if your DM allows any spell you seek for.
JulesCARV 10-17-06, 03:20 PM	Sure, an archivist who picks feats and PrCs wisely will be more powerful than an archivist who picks feats and PrCs poorly (although an archivist who PrCs will lose Dark Knowledge progression, which is a powerful feature). A cleric who picks feats and PrCs wisely will also be more powerful than a cleric who picks feats and PrCs poorly. A well-optimized archivist may be more powerful than a poorly-optimized cleric, so yes, archivists can be more powerful than clerics. However, a poorly-optimized cleric is probably more powerful than a poorly-optimized archivist, and a well-optimized cleric is probably more powerful than a well-optimized archivist. This is not to say that the archivist is weak. Clerics are very strong. An archivist is a perfectly respectable class, even if it isn't the route to Real Ultimate Power.
runestar 10-17-06, 10:23 PM	It's also much harder to optimise an archivist properly, since its power hinges on what spells your dm allows you access to. Though if you have other divine spellcasters in your party, such as rangers/paladins etc, half the work is done.:) That's the tradeoff - potentially ultimate power, but at ridiculous cost.
Bopple 10-18-06, 12:45 AM	a well-optimized cleric is probably more powerful than a well-optimized archivist. What makes you think so? A well-optimized archivist gets almost everything a well-optimized cleric can get, and more - more diverse array of spells. Of course, as I said, it's dependent upon your dm's will. And few dm's would allow you to learn any spell you want. But that's a different issue.
JulesCARV 10-18-06, 02:05 AM	Well, for one thing, archivists are dependent on far more ability scores. A cleric needs: -Constitution. Y'know. -Wisdom. For spells. -Charisma. For turning (a polite code word for divine metamagic) An archivist who wants to achieve what a cleric can needs: -Dexterity. Archivists only have medium armor proficiency, without blowing a feat or finding a heavy armor proficiency prestige class. No adamantine full plate for them! -Constitution. Y'know. -Intelligence. Spellcasting ability and save DCs. -Wisdom. Bonus spells. -Charisma. For turning attempts gotten through sacred exorcist or whatever. At high levels, an archivist will have fewer spells than a cleric, lower save DCs, or a little of both.
runestar 10-18-06, 03:45 AM	-Dexterity. Archivists only have medium armor proficiency, without blowing a feat or finding a heavy armor proficiency prestige class. No adamantine full plate for them! No, but mithral full plate is still good for them.:) I don't mind dumping wis, I will just make up for the fewer spell slots by scribing more scrolls where appropriate...:embarrass And at higher lvs, he gets enough spells, so I doubt I would be too bothered by the lesser spell slots...
JulesCARV 10-18-06, 03:35 PM	Clerics can wear Mithral Full Plate too, of course, although exploiting it fully requires 16+ dexterity. An archivist who dumps wisdom can still cast his basic spells without bonus spell slots. A cleric who dumps intelligence can cast his basic spells and get bonus spell slots, since she doesn't need intelligence at all. True, a cleric needs to spend a feat, or get the Rune domain, to have scribe scroll, while an archivist gets it for free. Then again, a cleric [i]can[i] get scribe scroll as a bonus feat by picking the rune domain, in addition to another bonus feat from another domain. True, most clerics won't pick Rune, but that's generally because they're getting something better than scribe scroll from the domains they do pick, not because clerics get screwed.
Necromas 12-12-06, 04:31 PM	You can always dump dex and wait till higher levels to max out your AC through dex items. Or suck it up and take a single feat.