Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shoes 10-29-03, 07:59 PM	Archer A warrior based for ranged attacks with the ranged attacks. The archer has been known for many names depending on what type of weapon they use. Game Rule Information Archers have the following game statistics: Abilities: Dexterity is a critical ability score for archers, considering their heavy reliance on ranged weapons. Constitution is important for giving archers lots of hit points. A decent Wisdom and Intelligence is needed for certain archer-based abilities, skills, and feats. Alignment: Any Hit Dice: d8 Starting Wealth: 5d4 x 10 gp Class Skills The archer's class skills (and the key ability for it) are: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Jump (Str), Search (Int), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str). See Chapter 4: Skills of the PHB for skill descriptions. Skills Points at 1st Level: (2 + Intellgience modifier) x4 Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier Level Base Attack Bonus Fort/Ref /Will Special 1st +1 +0 /+2 /+0 Point Blank Shot, Increased Ranged 2nd +2 +0 /+3 /+0 Clever Shot 3rd +3 +1 /+3 /+1 4th +4 +1 /+4 /+1 Bonus Feat 5th +5 +1 /+4 /+1 6th +6/+1 +2 /+5 /+2 Improved Point Blank 7th +7/+2 +2 /+5 /+2 Bonus Feat 8th +8/+3 +2 /+6 /+2 9th +9/+4 +3 /+6 /+3 Careful Aim 10th +10/+5 +3 /+7 /+3 Bonus Feat 11th +11/+6/+1 +3 /+7 /+3 12th +12/+7/+2 +4 /+8 /+4 Greater Point Blank 13th +13/+8/+3 +4 /+8 /+4 Bonus Feat 14th +14/+9/+4 +4 /+9 /+4 15th +15/+10/+5 +5 /+9 /+5 Dead Shot 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +5 /+10 /+5 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +5 /+10 /+5 Bonus Feat 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +6 /+11 /+6 Superior Poink Blank 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +6 /+11 /+6 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +6 /+12 /+6 Bonus Feat Class Features The following are class features of the archer. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The archer gains proficiency with all simple weapons, shortbow, and longbow. They are also proficent with both composite and mighty versions of the shortbow and longbow. In addition, archers are proficient in the use of arrows as melee weapons, meaning they do not suffer the standard -4 penalty for using an arrow in melee. They are proficent with light and medium armor, but not with shields. Note that armor check penalties for armor heavier that leather apply to the skills. Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pocket, and Tumble. Also Swim checks suffer a -1 penalty for every 5 pounds of armor and equipment carried. Point Blank Shot: At 1st level, an archer gains the feat Point Blank Shot for free, even if he doesn't make the prerequisites. Increased Range: At 1st level, the archer may increase his Range Increment with his ranged weapon by the per level bonus and increases at 5th level and every five levels afterward, (1st +10, 5th +20, 10th +30, 15th +40, 20th +50). Clever Shot: At 2nd level, the archer may angle his shots to inflict the most damage possible. He gains damage bonus equal to his Dexterity modifer with all bows and crossbows only within his point blank increment. This bonus does not stack with bonuses from Strength modifiers from a mighty composite bows, the archer uses precise aim over muscle. Bonus Feat: At 4th level, the archer gets a bonus feat in addition to the normal feats a character gets. The archer gains an additional bonus feat at 7th level and every three levels thereafter (10th, 14th, 17th, & 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the following list. Arrow Cleave, Arrow Stab, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexs, Crack Shot, Dead Aim, Defensive Shot, Diving Shot, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Far Shot, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Mobility, Precise Shot, Quick, Quick Draw, Ranged Expertise, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Sharpshooter, Spring Attack, Suppressive Fire, Weapon Focus. Some of these bonus feats avaiable to an archer cannot be acquired until the archer has gained one or more prerequisite feats. Improved Point-Blank Shot (Ex): At 6th level, the archer’s ability to hit targets within point blank with his primary weapon improves. The range increment for point blank is now consider to be extended out to 60 feet. This ability supersedes (does not stack with) the Point-Blank Shot feat. Careful Aim: At 9th level, as a full-round action, the archer may add his Wisdom modifier to his attack roll and damage roll. The archer may only make one single attack during this round at all to gain the benefits. If attacked, the archer must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + damage dealt) or lose the benefits for the round. Greater Point-Blank Shot (Ex): At 12th level, the archer’s ability to hit targets within point blank with his primary weapon improves. The range increment for point blank is now consider to be extended out to 90 feet. This ability supersedes (does not stack with) the Point-Blank Shot feat. Dead Shot: At 15th level, the archer can cause one ranged attack he makes against a flat-footed opponent to automatically become a critical threat. This must be declared before an attack roll is made. If the attack misses, the ability is wasted. This ability may be used once per day. Superior Point-Blank Shot (Ex): At 18th level, the archer’s ability to hit targets within point blank with his primary weapon improves. The range increment for point blank is now consider to be extended out to 120 feet. This ability supersedes (does not stack with) the Point-Blank Shot feat. New Feats Arrow Cleave [General] You can follow through with poweful shots. Prerequisites: Str 13+, Point Blank Shot, Sharpshooter Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra ranged attack against another creature directly in the path of the arrow. The creature must be in the same range increment as the original target, and the second attack is at the same bonus as the original attack that dropped the previous creature. Arrow Stab [General] When fighting with a string bow, you may make a melee attack against an adjacent opponent with one of your arrows. Prerequisites: Defensive Shot Benefits: When fighting with a string bow, you may make an attack against as opponent within a area that you threaten. You gain an additional melee attack equal to your next attack that must be made with the arrow you are notching. The melee attack and the following ranged attack are both made with a -2 penalty. Crack Shot [General] You are skilled at making well-placed shots at targets behind cover. Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot. Benefit: When you make a ranged attack against an opponent behind cover, the target's cover bonus to Armor Class is halved. Dead Aim [General] [Under Construction] You are capable of lining up deadly shots with ranged weapons. Prerequisites: Wis 13+, Far Shot Benefit: Before making a ranged attack, you may take a full-round action to line up your shot. This grants you a +2 circumstance bonus and critical range is doubled on your next attack roll. Once you begin aiming, you can't move, even to take a 5-foot step, until after you make your next attack, or the benefit of the feat is lost. Likewise, if your concentration is disrupted or you are attacked before your next attack, you lose the benefit of aiming (Concentration check, DC = 10 + damage dealt). Defensive Shot [General] When you fire a weapon while adjacent to an opponent, you do not draw an attack of opportunity. Prerequisites: Dodge, Point Blank Shot. Benefit: When firing a weapon while in a opponent's threatened area, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity against your enemies. Diving Shot [General] You are trained in fast, acrobatic, defensive manoeuvres while in ranged combat. Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Dodge, Mobility, Shot on the Run. Benefit: When using the attack action with a ranged weapon in the same round in which you used a move action to move at least 20 feet, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to your Armor Class against ranged attacks. Improved Rapid Shot [General] You are a expert at firing weapons with exceptional speed Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +2 or higher Benefit: When using the Rapid Shot feat, you can ignore the -2 attack penalty on all of your range attacks. Quick [General] You are deft and light on your feet. Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus to Initiative checks and a +1 bonus on all Reflex saves. Ranged Expertise [General] You are trained to stay light on your feet when fighting at range. Prerequisite: Wis 13+ Benefit: When you use the attack or full-attack action with a range weapon, you may take a penalty up to -5 to gain the same number as a bonus to your AC (up to +5). this number may not exceed your base attack bonus and lasts until your action next round. This is a dodge bonus. Sharpshooter [General] You can focus your range strikes to hit vital areas. Prerequisite: Dex 13+, Int 11+ Benefit: On your action, before making an attack roll at range you may take a penalty up to your base attack and add the same number to all of your damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. These bonuses and penalties last until the end of you action. Suppressive Fire [General] You may pin down a location and make attacks of opportunity against those crossing, entering, or moving through the line. Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot, Combat Reflexes, base attack +6 or higher. Benefit: As a standard action you may nominate a strait or diagonal line of squares. As long as you do not move, you may expand an attack of opportunity to fire your weapon at anyone crossing, entering, or moving through that nominated line of squares. The number of squares in the line is only limited by the first range increment of the range weapon.
Kage Wellby 10-29-03, 08:05 PM	Why bother? One could easily just play a Fighter or Ranger, then get the PrC of Deepwood Sniper. What is up with everyone and their 2 year old brother deciding to make "Core Classes" which are redundant considering the Multiclassing options?
Shadowfoot 10-29-03, 08:08 PM	Originally posted by Kage Wellby Why bother? One could easily just play a Fighter or Ranger, then get the PrC of Deepwood Sniper. What is up with everyone and their 2 year old brother deciding to make "Core Classes" which are redundant considering the Multiclassing options? What's up with everyone and their 2 year old brother feeling the need to tell people to stop creating classes. If you don't like original core classes (which are an option in the DMG and pretty common), instead of coming in to take a big dump on the whole idea, why not show some class and ignore the post. This isn't a urinal.
Shoes 10-29-03, 08:37 PM	Thank you Shadowfoot.
Nick Soapdish 10-29-03, 08:52 PM	I'm not too enamored with the idea. I think the archetype can be created using the fighter, but with fewer changes. Just have the fighter trade his heavy armor proficiency and better weapons for a few goodies, like a better skill list. Clever shot is too good. It allows the character to add strength to the dump stats with no drawbacks. Dexterity is already a tremendously important skill, maybe even as important as strength (obviously depending on builds; I'm just generalizing there). I think that any rogue or ranger or even cleric archer would gladly sacrifice a couple levels of their other class for clever shot w/in 30 ft. The rogue would give up a d6 of sneak attack damage, but be doing better than that damage automatically with every short range attack. Same with several of the feats. Archery is already a great choice. You can almost always get your full attack in at high levels which is often difficult for the melee types. A lot of the feats help ameliorate the (IMO) minor disadvantages to it, like not being able to Cleave or use Expertise. Supressive Fire is too broad. Maybe if it's limited by the archer's Point Blank range. But allowing a 2nd level character to make attacks of opportunity at up to 110 feet is too much, especially since the character is likely to have a very high dex. And Improved Rapid Shot is waaaay too good. Being able to ignore the penalty as early as 2nd level is way too early. The standard two-weapon fighter won't EVER be able to get rid of their -2 penalty and they lose part of their strength bonus (if applicable) on their off-hand attacks. The archer using Rapid Shot never suffers that penalty (depending on the mighty bow being used or if Clever Shot is in play). Plus, they have a better chance to make that full-round attack. Maybe with a BAB requirement of +11, to tie in with the monk's perfection of their flurry, but monks have an average BAB, unlike the archer.
KRONOS 10-30-03, 12:25 AM	Not bad Shoes. That could be the best home brew archer class I have seen on these boards.:) Well said Shadowfoot.
Shoes 10-30-03, 12:55 AM	I'll try to point some stuff out about the class in why I did what I did. Originally posted by Nick Soapdish I think the archetype can be created using the fighter, but with fewer changes. Just have the fighter trade his heavy armor proficiency and better weapons for a few goodies, like a better skill list. Well, it could, but then your still changing the class into something different and confusing. I just thought it be nice to have a class based around archery and not versatile into all armor and weapons. Technically you could do that with any weapon the for a new class (Swordsman, Mounted Warrior, etc.), but I think archery should have it's own class. Clever shot is too good. It allows the character to add strength to the dump stats with no drawbacks. Dexterity is already a tremendously important skill, maybe even as important as strength (obviously depending on builds; I'm just generalizing there). I think that any rogue or ranger or even cleric archer would gladly sacrifice a couple levels of their other class for clever shot w/in 30 ft. The rogue would give up a d6 of sneak attack damage, but be doing better than that damage automatically with every short range attack. Clever Shot could be over powering, thats why I limited it to point blank range and extend the range so they can do it from afar at higher levels AND you can't add your Strength bonus to it. And for such classes based around archery, you have to sacrifice levels with the possible exp penalty, and your losing out on higher level abilites for such classes (rogue = special ability, ranger = favored enemy/wilderness abilities, cleric = spell level). Also to point out, rangers are not archers. Even thougth they could be based around archery, they're more wilderness warriors based for the wild. Same with several of the feats. Archery is already a great choice. You can almost always get your full attack in at high levels which is often difficult for the melee types. A lot of the feats help ameliorate the (IMO) minor disadvantages to it, like not being able to Cleave or use Expertise. But the feats similar to Cleave and Expertise is still limited. Arrow Cleave can only work if an enemy is straight behind the other and Ranged Expertise only works against ranged attacks. It's all a different views. Supressive Fire is too broad. Maybe if it's limited by the archer's Point Blank range. But allowing a 2nd level character to make attacks of opportunity at up to 110 feet is too much, especially since the character is likely to have a very high dex. Relook at the feat, you must spend a standand action to activate it. Which means you get no attacks that round AND only if the enemy crosses the line. If no enemy does, you wasted your attack(s) that round. And Improved Rapid Shot is waaaay too good. Being able to ignore the penalty as early as 2nd level is way too early. The standard two-weapon fighter won't EVER be able to get rid of their -2 penalty and they lose part of their strength bonus (if applicable) on their off-hand attacks. The archer using Rapid Shot never suffers that penalty (depending on the mighty bow being used or if Clever Shot is in play). Plus, they have a better chance to make that full-round attack. Maybe with a BAB requirement of +11, to tie in with the monk's perfection of their flurry, but monks have an average BAB, unlike the archer. True that people with Two-weapon Fighting can never get rid of that penalty, but is there any archer feats that gives Rapid Shot additional attacks like Improved/Greater Two-weapon Fighting? So maybe the requirements needs a boost, ok. Just remember though, this feat was made by Jonathan Tweet and Sean K. Reynolds, not made by me.
Arthedain the ranger 10-30-03, 03:33 AM	Originally posted by Shoes Clever Shot could be over powering, thats why I limited it to point blank range and extend the range so they can do it from afar at higher levels AND you can't add your Strength bonus to it. And for such classes based around archery, you have to sacrifice levels with the possible exp penalty, and your losing out on higher level abilites for such classes (rogue = special ability, ranger = favored enemy/wilderness abilities, cleric = spell level). Also to point out, rangers are not archers. Even thougth they could be based around archery, they're more wilderness warriors based for the wild. Why don't you add a limit to the dex bonus on damage, just like the new duelist on the 3.5 master manual. Something like taking only +1 of maximum dex per 2 levels of Archer class. So an Archer of 2nd level can add only +1 to damage, at 4th +2 and so on. I think that doing so you could limit the "min/maxing fest" on this class.
spray paint affiliate 10-30-03, 05:06 AM	Originally posted by Shadowfoot What's up with everyone and their 2 year old brother feeling the need to tell people to stop creating classes. If you don't like original core classes (which are an option in the DMG and pretty common), instead of coming in to take a big dump on the whole idea, why not show some class and ignore the post. This isn't a urinal. you hypocrite Originally posted by Shadowfoot Why do you consider this a core class and not a prestige class. Core classes should really be reserved for general fantasy archetypes - like pirate, swashbuckler, witch, druid, etc. Anything more specialized or unusual should be PrCs. This seems like anything but a core class. Even the name. I thought it was going to be poison-based. remember posting that?
Shadowfoot 10-30-03, 05:49 AM	There's nothing hypocritical about it. Archer is a standard archetype; I have my own archer class in my signature, in fact. A general archer core class is fine (Robin Hood, William Tell, Hawkeye, that little Indian kid who shot the arrow in the air, etc); a military sniper (or arcane archer or zen archer or woodland archer or archer-that-fires-daisies or whatever) is a PrC. If by hypocritical you mean my language was as rude as the comment I was responding to, well, that's a matter of opinion. But people who are rude deserve a little rude right back. Being silent or turning a cheek only welcomes them to keep doing it. It may not be pretty, but it's me.
Dead_Inside 10-30-03, 06:12 AM	+1 bab per level no way If anything this should be more of a cleric bab progression class. I just don't see them getting great bab, awesome feats (for free), not to mention the bonus feats and d8 hd for a ranged character.
Xorial 10-30-03, 08:37 AM	Originally posted by Dead_Inside +1 bab per level no way If anything this should be more of a cleric bab progression class. I just don't see them getting great bab, awesome feats (for free), not to mention the bonus feats and d8 hd for a ranged character. Why? Looking at the class, you see that is derived from a standard fighter. Counting free & bonus feats together, and abilities that are unique but still feat like, he gets about the same as a fighter. He gets a total of 14 bonuses. That 3 more than the core fighter. I dont think it's enough, considering the drop in hit points. I say bump him to 4 skill points per level.
april151978 10-30-03, 09:36 AM	Try Dragon #310, the Targetter...
spray paint affiliate 10-30-03, 10:08 AM	Originally posted by Shadowfoot There's nothing hypocritical about it. . . if i were you, i'd consider taking english grammar and context 101 at the next available opportunity.
Xorial 10-30-03, 10:25 AM	Originally posted by april151978 Try Dragon #310, the Targetter... Boy, you really like that Dragon#310, dont you? :angel: You seem to mention it on the majority of threads you post on.
april151978 10-30-03, 10:38 AM	Originally posted by Xorial Boy, you really like that Dragon#310, dont you? :angel: You seem to mention it on the majority of threads you post on. :blush: Well, despite the fact I still see the core fighter as in the books as usefull, they did a wonderful job with the variants and PrCs in that issue... It's in the top 10 all time issues for me... So yes, I like it... :D :D :D
Xorial 10-30-03, 11:29 AM	Originally posted by april151978 :blush: Well, despite the fact I still see the core fighter as in the books as usefull, they did a wonderful job with the variants and PrCs in that issue... It's in the top 10 all time issues for me... So yes, I like it... :D :D :D No problem, I like it too. :cool:
Shadowfoot 10-30-03, 11:49 AM	Originally posted by spray paint affiliate if i were you, i'd consider taking english grammar and context 101 at the next available opportunity. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for clarifying your point.
Thorak 10-30-03, 01:45 PM	Just a nitpick, though hopefully a politer one than the current debate's original post; IMHO, the only reason to create a new core class is when there's a basic-level type job a core class can't do. As such, I think an archer's easy as pie to build either as a ranger or fighter. You could as easily argue the need for a 'swordsman' class, or a 'thief' class. There are core classes already designed to include those classes within them. And, if the concept gets any stranger than those above, it should be a PrC, much like Deepwood Sniper is a perfect example of an 'archer' PrC. The only time this is really an issue is when the PrC is a caster class, because you have to include "+1 level to existing casting class" as an ability, simply to maintain pace with other non-PrC casters. In short, I personally think you'd be better off setting this as a PrC, even one you can qualify for early, say at a +3-4 BaB and 2 archery feats. A fighter'll get there quick, and then you can ramp up the speed of development from there.
Xorial 10-30-03, 02:02 PM	It is true that one could convert the abilities into fighter only feats. That would work for most. But the only way to get the complete flexibility of a class like this, is to creat a new core class. You would need a house rule, allowing the fighter to swap his high Fortitude saves out for a high Reflex save instead. Something I've been toying with anyway. Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115076) is where I have some fighter ideas. You would need my alternate Bonus Feat progression to simulate this class. I have some Archery feats there. Shoes, I would like to post your feats on my thread. I would link them here & put them in a quote. That is, if you dont mind. I already have some that do the same thing, or are named the same, but have different effects. I will note that in the post.
Shoes 10-30-03, 05:29 PM	Originally posted by Thorak IMHO, the only reason to create a new core class is when there's a basic-level type job a core class can't do. As such, I think an archer's easy as pie to build either as a ranger or fighter. You could as easily argue the need for a 'swordsman' class, or a 'thief' class. There are core classes already designed to include those classes within them. And, if the concept gets any stranger than those above, it should be a PrC, much like Deepwood Sniper is a perfect example of an 'archer' PrC. The only time this is really an issue is when the PrC is a caster class, because you have to include "+1 level to existing casting class" as an ability, simply to maintain pace with other non-PrC casters. In short, I personally think you'd be better off setting this as a PrC, even one you can qualify for early, say at a +3-4 BaB and 2 archery feats. A fighter'll get there quick, and then you can ramp up the speed of development from there. To tell the truth, my original idea was to have it as a PrC, but with the changes in my current campaign with me not allowing Paladins, Monks, Druids, and Sorcerers, I thought I create some new classes in their place for the setting. A player in my group want to be an archer without prestiging and didn't like the fighter's skill list, heavy armor, or Fortitude saving throw, So I figure, why not?, and created this class. Originally posted by Arthedain the ranger Why don't you add a limit to the dex bonus on damage, just like the new duelist on the 3.5 master manual. Something like taking only +1 of maximum dex per 2 levels of Archer class. So an Archer of 2nd level can add only +1 to damage, at 4th +2 and so on. I think that doing so you could limit the "min/maxing fest" on this class. That wouldn't be such a bad idea. I like the idea of players getting good abilites but limited so it gets better with time. The only problem is, I think I limited the Clever Shot ability enough already with range and power limitations. Originally posted by Xorial Shoes, I would like to post your feats on my thread. I would link them here & put them in a quote. That is, if you dont mind. I already have some that do the same thing, or are named the same, but have different effects. I will note that in the post. Heck if I care. Most of the feats are converted and changed from different rpgs (Swashbuckling Adventures mostly) so they were not so overpowering. Even one of them (Quick feat) I got here from the boards (don't remember who though), so go right ahead, I'm happy.
ThorvaldHafgrimsson 10-30-03, 06:07 PM	I don't care for the Arrow Cleave ability. If you include it, why not make it part of a feat tree following Sharpshooter (much like cleave follows power attack) Sharpshoter seems a bit strong - unless you restrict it to PB range; though RI penalties might make using it harder, it still would be tempting to take all you BAB away when you need a natural 20 to hit at extreme range (10 RI for xample) since you lose nothing. The Feats Defensive Shot and Ducking Shot seem designed for the same problem - AoO's when firing while in Melee. Yet one is Clearly better than the other; Why spend a feat to gt +2 Ac vs AoO's when you can negate the AoO entirely? DId I misread the Feats? If so you might wnat to reword them to make your intention clearer. Dead Shot seems like it would be open to serious abuse when combined with Sharpshooter and the Spell "True Strike" Suppresive Fire seems like a good idea, but combined with Combat reflexes it could easily shut off a 5' wide corridor; no one would want to run through the door after the first two or three were shot. You might want a BAB minimum of +6 or so to keep a low level character from using it to get a LOT of extra attacks when in confining terrain. It looks lide a good first draft, but there are a few problems you might want to address.
chanty malo 10-30-03, 06:17 PM	LOVE THE CLASS...great job...I think I may include it on my game....with some modifications...maybe more skills and less feats. Keep up the good work
Shadowfoot 10-30-03, 06:22 PM	Originally posted by Shoes Even one of them (Quick feat) I got here from the boards (don't remember who though). :tiphat:
Shoes 10-30-03, 07:06 PM	Originally posted by ThorvaldHafgrimsson I don't care for the Arrow Cleave ability. If you include it, why not make it part of a feat tree following Sharpshooter (much like cleave follows power attack) Ok, makes sense. Sharpshoter seems a bit strong - unless you restrict it to PB range; though RI penalties might make using it harder, it still would be tempting to take all you BAB away when you need a natural 20 to hit at extreme range (10 RI for xample) since you lose nothing. Maybe there should be a limit on range, I was thinking maybe within the first range increment, maybe? The Feats Defensive Shot and Ducking Shot seem designed for the same problem - AoO's when firing while in Melee. Yet one is Clearly better than the other; Why spend a feat to gt +2 Ac vs AoO's when you can negate the AoO entirely? DId I misread the Feats? If so you might wnat to reword them to make your intention clearer. Yeah, I made a mistake. Originally Defensive Shot was that you take a -2 penalty to not provoke an attack od opportunity, thats why Ducking Shot is there. But when I changed Defensive Shot all together, I didn't think about Ducking Shot at all, my bad. Dead Shot seems like it would be open to serious abuse when combined with Sharpshooter and the Spell "True Strike" True, but just the same as Power Attack and True Strike. The difference is the crit range umped. I was still thinking in what to do with it. Also, I forgot to add under Special for it... 'This feat cannot be taken with Improved Critical', it needs a little work. Suppresive Fire seems like a good idea, but combined with Combat reflexes it could easily shut off a 5' wide corridor; no one would want to run through the door after the first two or three were shot. You might want a BAB minimum of +6 or so to keep a low level character from using it to get a LOT of extra attacks when in confining terrain. I never thought of that. So, I'll bump it up to +6 requirment or something along the lines. It looks lide a good first draft, but there are a few problems you might want to address. Thats why the wizard boards and you guys are here. :D P.S. Totally forgot you came up with that feat Shadowfoot.:thumbsup:
Nick Soapdish 10-30-03, 07:33 PM	Originally posted by Shoes Well, it could, but then your still changing the class into something different and confusing. I just thought it be nice to have a class based around archery and not versatile into all armor and weapons. Technically you could do that with any weapon the for a new class (Swordsman, Mounted Warrior, etc.), but I think archery should have it's own class. How is that more different and confusing than this? Besides, that's about what I described - sacrificing heavy armor and most melee weapons (say, reducing them to thief weapons + bows) and switching their good save in return for ... well, I'm not exactly sure what would be fair. Those really aren't much of a sacrifice since they aren't things the character would use anyway. But they've obviously got to get something in return. My first response was skill points to allow them to max out craft(bowyer/fletcher) and for something else dex related. Clever Shot could be over powering, thats why I limited it to point blank range and extend the range so they can do it from afar at higher levels AND you can't add your Strength bonus to it. And for such classes based around archery, you have to sacrifice levels with the possible exp penalty, and your losing out on higher level abilites for such classes (rogue = special ability, ranger = favored enemy/wilderness abilities, cleric = spell level). Also to point out, rangers are not archers. Even thougth they could be based around archery, they're more wilderness warriors based for the wild. That's not that much of a limitation. I suspect that most combat is within 30 feet anyway. Most (or at least, part) of the party is in melee while the rest snipe at the enemy with spells or missile weapons. The classes I chose were chosen more for their potential at archery, not their actual archetypical use of archery. Both rogues and rangers are likely to have a high dex (much higher than strength) due to their skill set, high reflex save, and light armor requirement. Neither of them lose much for 2 levels of Archer. The rogue loses one Special Ability, 12 skill points, and a d6 on their sneak attack damage. In return, they gain a guaranteed bonus on damage with their bow which is probably higher than the d6 could be (even after subtracting the strength bonus they lose). And this damage bonus will multiply on crits and be there against undead and other SA-immune foes. In return, he gets a feat, a better BAB (for a while), better HD, and better HD. But most importantly, he gets to use his best ability to modify his damage on missile weapons. If I was playing a rogue that planned on using a bow, much if at all, it'd be a no-brainer for me. The ranger loses 10 skill points, a 3rd level spell, and 2 4ths. Plus, he loses a total of +4 in Favored Enemy bonuses. If this is a ranger that emphasizes archery, he'd be getting that +4 back and more in damage and for a lot longer. He'd also trade a point of his fortitude save for 2 in reflex. But the feats similar to Cleave and Expertise are still limited. Arrow Cleave can only work if an enemy is straight behind the other and Ranged Expertise only works against ranged attacks. It's all a different views. Less of a limitation is, relatively speaking, an improvement. Out of curiousity, I'm having trouble visualizing Arrow Cleave. Is it that the archer shot the arrow so hard that it went straight through the body and into whatever poor unsuspecting sap was behind him? If so, is there any kind of modifier for the arrow actually passing through the body? Or is he actually shooting another arrow? That would be quite a departure from the mechanics of Cleave since in melee combat, they make a lot more swings. It's just that a lot of them are feints or parries. Cleave just allows them to convert a feint into a hit. Relook at the feat, you must spend a standand action to activate it. Which means you get no attacks that round AND only if the enemy crosses the line. If no enemy does, you wasted your attack(s) that round. Seems like it would be pretty easy to set it up so that any foe would be likely to cross the line. True that people with Two-weapon Fighting can never get rid of that penalty, but is there any archer feats that gives Rapid Shot additional attacks like Improved/Greater Two-weapon Fighting? So maybe the requirements needs a boost, ok. Just remember though, this feat was made by Jonathan Tweet and Sean K. Reynolds, not made by me. I already said that I thought Rapid Shot was better than Two Weapon Fighting so I don't really see a need to improve it. 'Sides, there is (sort of) an improvement in Many Shot. You can't do it in a full attack, but it allows archers to get multiple attacks in surprise rounds or when they move, unlike melee characters - which still don't have any sort of feat that will allow them to do so. And I don't care who made it. Nobody's perfect IMO.
Shoes 10-30-03, 08:38 PM	Originally posted by Nick Soapdish How is that more different and confusing than this? Besides, that's about what I described - sacrificing heavy armor and most melee weapons (say, reducing them to thief weapons + bows) and switching their good save in return for ... well, I'm not exactly sure what would be fair. Those really aren't much of a sacrifice since they aren't things the character would use anyway. But they've obviously got to get something in return. My first response was skill points to allow them to max out craft(bowyer/fletcher) and for something else dex related. You just made it a little confusing right there. That's not that much of a limitation. I suspect that most combat is within 30 feet anyway. Most (or at least, part) of the party is in melee while the rest snipe at the enemy with spells or missile weapons. Thats just an opinion. If I played a spellcaster or archer, I think I try to be as best far away without being out of range of firing or helping the other party members. Like I said, opinion. The classes I chose were chosen more for their potential at archery, not their actual archetypical use of archery. Both rogues and rangers are likely to have a high dex (much higher than strength) due to their skill set, high reflex save, and light armor requirement. True, but just because they have high Dexteritys doesn't mean they'll be archers. Neither of them lose much for 2 levels of Archer. The rogue loses one Special Ability, 12 skill points, and a d6 on their sneak attack damage. In return, they gain a guaranteed bonus on damage with their bow which is probably higher than the d6 could be (even after subtracting the strength bonus they lose). And this damage bonus will multiply on crits and be there against undead and other SA-immune foes. In return, he gets a feat, a better BAB (for a while), better HD, and better HD. But most importantly, he gets to use his best ability to modify his damage on missile weapons. If I was playing a rogue that planned on using a bow, much if at all, it'd be a no-brainer for me. The ranger loses 10 skill points, a 3rd level spell, and 2 4ths. Plus, he loses a total of +4 in Favored Enemy bonuses. If this is a ranger that emphasizes archery, he'd be getting that +4 back and more in damage and for a lot longer. He'd also trade a point of his fortitude save for 2 in reflex. Less of a limitation is, relatively speaking, an improvement. Ok, lets look at it this way. By giving up all those things, for what?, one ability and +2 base attack? Not they wouldn't, but then thats they're choice. Obvisouly they're going for archery then trap disarming or wilderness skills. Out of curiousity, I'm having trouble visualizing Arrow Cleave. Is it that the archer shot the arrow so hard that it went straight through the body and into whatever poor unsuspecting sap was behind him? If so, is there any kind of modifier for the arrow actually passing through the body? Or is he actually shooting another arrow? That would be quite a departure from the mechanics of Cleave since in melee combat, they make a lot more swings. It's just that a lot of them are feints or parries. Cleave just allows them to convert a feint into a hit. Seems like it would be pretty easy to set it up so that any foe would be likely to cross the line. Every see Lord of the Rings? I already said that I thought Rapid Shot was better than Two Weapon Fighting so I don't really see a need to improve it. 'Sides, there is (sort of) an improvement in Many Shot. You can't do it in a full attack, but it allows archers to get multiple attacks in surprise rounds or when they move, unlike melee characters - which still don't have any sort of feat that will allow them to do so. And I don't care who made it. Nobody's perfect IMO. Two things. (1.) Many Shot is part of 3.5. I'm not a big fan of 3.5 at all. I admit there is some things I liked, but also a lot i didn't like. (2.) If you don't care who made it and keep griping about all the 'mistakes' or 'balance issues' of this class, then don't post on this thread. I posted this class to get suggestions, ideas, and comments on the class. I knew there would be some people who didn't like it, but you keep going off about what YOU don't like. As Shadowfoot said... Originally posted by Shadowfoot If you don't like original core classes (which are an option in the DMG and pretty common), instead of coming in to take a big dump on the whole idea, why not show some class and ignore the post. This isn't a urinal.
Nick Soapdish 10-30-03, 11:54 PM	Originally posted by Shoes You just made it a little confusing right there. Sorry. By this, I meant your class. Any time that you start introducing house rules and home-brewed classes, you run the risk of confusion since players are more likely to be familiar with the pre-existing stuff. It's probably less confusing if it's more like the pre-existing stuff, but then you'd also run the risk of them forgetting which little part is different. Out of curiousity, does this quote format where it takes the previous person's quote away drive you as nuts as it does me? Thats just an opinion. If I played a spellcaster or archer, I think I try to be as best far away without being out of range of firing or helping the other party members. Like I said, opinion. Well, yeah. It depends on the campaign setting a lot. In my campaign, a lot of it takes place in a forest so the encounter distance is already within 30 feet or that distance can be reached in a single move. YMMV True, but just because they have high Dexteritys doesn't mean they'll be archers. Sigh. But it means they are more likely to be archers. Put it this way, if you have a character with average hit points, a middlin' to low AC, an average strength, and a high dexterity, would you be more inclined to go for melee combat or missile combat? As a side note which I forgot to mention in my previous response, the suggestion about limiting Clever Shot to 1/2 the Archer's level completely removes the threat of "dipping" into the Archer for that ability. On another side note, I think there was a feat like Defensive Shot in ELH. (Don't think that it really deserved to be in Epic, but as someone-or-another said, it was the only place they had to stick feats at the time.) Basically, it was the same thing, 'cept that it was called Combat Archery and required Mobility as well. IIRC, that is. Ok, lets look at it this way. By giving up all those things, for what?, one ability and +2 base attack? Not they wouldn't, but then thats they're choice. Obvisouly they're going for archery then trap disarming or wilderness skills. But it's not an either/or. The character is going to be able to be just as good at those skills (or virtually so; 2 ranks won't mean much at 20th level) and they'll be a lot better at archery. It's not like it's just getting a feat. It's an pretty hefty ability. It's like a sorcerer taking a one level dip into paladin for the saves. Every see Lord of the Rings? Yep. Ever play D&D? One drive-by deserves another. And I don't actually recall seeing anyone shoot an arrow through anyone so hard that it went through the body and hit someone 5 feet past them. Oh wait, did Legolas do that to a pair of orcs at the climax of FOTR? Anyway, are you planning on introducing a feat that allows a character to ride a shield like a skateboard then? I realize that I'm being snide and I apologize, but I'm just trying to raise the point that maybe everything that you see in a movie doesn't necessarily translate to a game well. Two things. (1.) Many Shot is part of 3.5. I'm not a big fan of 3.5 at all. I admit there is some things I liked, but also a lot i didn't like. Actually, it's from 3.0. Somewhere in Forgotten Realms, I believe. So you can't just blame it on 3.5. (2.) If you don't care who made it and keep griping about all the 'mistakes' or 'balance issues' of this class, then don't post on this thread. I posted this class to get suggestions, ideas, and comments on the class. I knew there would be some people who didn't like it, but you keep going off about what YOU don't like. As Shadowfoot said... When I say that I don't care who made it, I'm trying to say that I don't believe the designers are infalliable. Everybody makes mistakes. I mean, if I showed you a feat that allowed wizards to add their intelligence bonus to each dice of damage done with their spells, would you care if it was something that I came up with myself or if Gary Jackson himself wrote it? I'm not posting on this thread to bust your chops. And frankly, it's no skin off my back no matter how over- or under-powered you make your class. It'll have no impact on my campaign. I'll take stuff that I think is cool and dump the rest. I made suggestions, ideas, and comments (mostly the latter, I'll admit). It was my intention to be helpful as I'm trying to point out "balance issues" and potential pitfalls of your class. Now, you have every right to ignore my suggestions, but I thought that I was polite about it and I'm not sure if I deserve to be told where to go. If you only want positive feedback about your ideas, you should stipulate as such in the original post. And now I will step out as requested since I suspect from your tone that I have reached (and exceeded) my usefullness as far as this thread is concerned.
Shoes 10-31-03, 12:30 AM	Well, first off let me say, sorry. It was just I was taking your comments the wrong way. It just sounded like you were 'busting my chops' through this thread. And as 'I' even said, it's an opnion, everyone has the right to them. Thats why the internet was made.:D Ok, now back to the class. It is true, I made this for a homebrew campaign, so of course it could be confusing. Clever Shot was made (ok, taken) so archers could do decent damage with their bows compare to the fighter and his sword (or whatever weapon), cause after time, they're gonna suck at damage. The idea for level depends on Clever Shot range is not a bad idea. Another idea is you can always make it so the ability can be gained at 4th level, like the fighter and Weapon Specialization. Many Shot was not originally from Forgotten Realms or D&D in that matter, it was first created in 3.5. It's a cool feat, thats why I don't fully hate 3.5. I did Arrow Cleave so archers can cleave like the fighter with a limitation. It was never taken from LotR, just weird that it was there. Maybe I could make a feat where you could ride a shield like a skateboard... JUST KIDDING! So, I hope you can forgive me for taking you wrong and being a jackass. See, we need more people like you and Shadowfoot on these boards... What? There is? Well, how can I tell when I have a 7 Wisdom stat, huh? P.S. Yes, the quote format is a hassle...
Xorial 10-31-03, 12:27 PM	The cleave ability isnt a big deal, & pretty neat I think. If you want overkill, play Rolemaster. The Cleave ability is built into the game mechanic. Nothing even close to requiring a feat or class ability required. THAT is overpowered.
Thorak 10-31-03, 11:44 PM	Originally posted by Shoes To tell the truth, my original idea was to have it as a PrC, but with the changes in my current campaign with me not allowing Paladins, Monks, Druids, and Sorcerers, I thought I create some new classes in their place for the setting. A player in my group want to be an archer without prestiging and didn't like the fighter's skill list, heavy armor, or Fortitude saving throw, So I figure, why not?, and created this class. This, again IMHO, is the WORST reason to create a new class. Classes aren't meant to exactly define what someone wants to play, this was the problem the Player's Option books had in 2nd edition; they let people take 'disadvantages' that were actually just how they were going to play anyway, so they could take extra powers. Things like "My archer-type fighter isn't going to wear heavy armor anyway, so I'll make that a penalty so I can get X power too." This is the root of munchkin playing, taking penalties that don't apply anyway in exchange for powers you really want. Perhaps neither the fighter's nor the ranger's setup is 'perfect', but it's not meant to be. It's meant to be a general guideline many different 'types' of characters can fit within. Creating core classes that artificially fit these specializations isn't what core classes are about, they're about the general type. Specialization is what PrCs are for. Otherwise, you'd get the 'new' combat-type rogue, getting a fighter's BaB in exchange for dropping, say, trapfinding and trap sense. In essence, dropping something you personally don't want for something you do, thereby min/maxing the class itself, even before you start on the character. This is munchkin.
anglar 11-01-03, 12:41 AM	I would make Arrow Cleave only possible within Point Blank range. I remeber when Legolas did that in FOTR and Two Towers. The orcs were only about 10 feet from him if not closer. You may also want to restrict it to "The second target must be within 10 feet of the dropped target." if what you are really talking about is the arrow going through the dropped target and into another target. I would also consider the second target flat-footed, but sneak attack damage would not be applicable. The "shield slide" is just a cool visual of "Shot on the Run."