Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maverick669984 03-15-08, 05:22 PM	I am going to be creating a new character in a campaign and I wanted to create an archer. Preferably a mounted archer. I know it can be as simple as be a Fighter and just take the feats, but I was wondering if there are any other options as to creating a mounted archer. I don't own very many books, so if you could please inform me as to which books I might want to purchase to help me with this idea, that would be great.
The_Shaman 03-15-08, 05:30 PM	Depends on whether you want to be a short/medium range archer or a long-range sniper. In general, Fighter is okay - but lack of spot as a class skill handicaps your long-range combat and lack of hide handicaps sniping. Ranger isn't a bad idea, either, and cleric and rogue both have several good options with a few splatbooks. In general there are a few PrCs you may want to check as well. What material would be allowed in your games? I can tell you I'm really impressed with the Peerless archer or the Justice of Weald & Woe, but both are FR material. P.S.: the whole mountain thing reminds me of the Cragtop archer from Races of Stone, though I'm not exactly thrilled by this PrC.
IdleAltruism 03-15-08, 05:43 PM	For a mounted Archer I'd go something like Ranger 2/Fighter X or something like Ranger 4/Scout 16 or Scout 4/Ranger 16 with swift hunter (Complete Scoundrel). Take Leadership feat and get yourself a decent mount(flying would probably be best). I'd actually be tempted to be a small archer with a mount, that way you have a better selection in possible flying mounts and you could take them into dungeons/indoors in genral. You only loose an average of 2 damage(and thats if you have a STR bow). Fighter here helps you with the massive amount of feats you'll need. Manyshot/Mounted Archery trees. It also gives you access to the weapon specialization tree(ranged weapon mastery to boot) which is always nice. The Ranger will give you some decent ranks into skills that are handy for archers and some nice abilities/feats(good ref save to which is never a bad thing). Scout will give you some good skirmishing abilities and some nice added damage. It will require you to get a little closer(most of the time this isn't an issue. The enemy will probably be in skirmish range in the first round) Will save suffers all around tho, it would be a wise investment to up it as quickly as possible. I know the guide says spot is important, but generally that isn't true(in my experience). It really depends on the game style, if you're outdoors spotting opponents from ridiculously long distances away or constantly fighting sneaky foes that utilize the hide skill then yes spot skill is great(and you'd probably want Scout/Ranger anyways). If you run in an average game its not that important for an archer. Sure it is handy, but it is just as good for any class(it doesn't really do anything special for an archer outside of I spot the guy trying to hide behind the bushes). I'm not saying spot isn't good for an archer its just not as important as you'd think(you can easily get away with only having a few ranks or crossclassing or buying an item with bonus to spot). Here is a handy link for archery, it's decent http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=947687 If you go Scout/Ranger you'd need CAdv and I believe the CS. If you go Ranger/Fighter the SRD+PH2 are good, there is some decent archery stuff in CW. If you go Ranger/Scout you MUST get Greater Manyshot http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot Why it was introduced in the EPH I'll never know. There are a couple of decent archer PrCs, but I don't think they would really help you.
Operation_Shoestring 03-15-08, 06:38 PM	P.S.: the whole mountain thing reminds me of the Cragtop archer from Races of Stone, though I'm not exactly thrilled by this PrC. The thing about cragtop archer is that you have to realize it's not a sniper- sniper's make spot checks and then shoot. Cragtop archers cast (or get friends to cast) divination spells and then shoot... that makes them artillery.
ciaran 03-15-08, 06:40 PM	Ranger is the way to go. Free feats and base attack to make use of them, a skill list to compliment it, and... Animal Companion!! There's a nice little 3 level prestige class for mounted rangers and paladins in Complete Adventurer you might dig.
The_Shaman 03-15-08, 06:58 PM	For a mounted Archer I'd go something like Ranger 2/Fighter X or something like Ranger 4/Scout 16 or Scout 4/Ranger 16 with swift hunter (Complete Scoundrel). Take Leadership feat and get yourself a decent mount(flying would probably be best). I'm pretty sure skirmish did not work if you're mounted. Did they change that? Also, several other characters can make decent archers: Clerics and psy-warriors are not to be underestimated even though they only have medium BAB.
Operation_Shoestring 03-15-08, 07:24 PM	I'm pretty sure skirmish did not work if you're mounted. Did they change that? Also, several other characters can make decent archers: Clerics and psy-warriors are not to be underestimated even though they only have medium BAB. there's a scout ACF that allows you to skirmish while mounted... it makes your enhancement bonuses to movement go to the mount instead of you as well.
Druss_of_The_Sword 03-15-08, 07:40 PM	Idle Altruism, i agree. I'd say a fighter with some warblade levels could work very well (if i remember right spot is a class skill for them.), and diamond mind maneuvars would be great counters. Especially the Moment of perfect mind to help with the will save drought. Pour all skill points into spot and concentration. With a fighter CON is one of the most important stats so your concentratyion will always be high. Also i was thinking of making a halfling/gnome warlock with the leadership feat to get some sort of other ceature to ride on. like an ogre, awakened tiger, or even just a half orc. That way if anything gets too close they have an ogre to deal with and eldritch blasts rain from the heavens. You might think about that.
runestar 03-15-08, 08:08 PM	What is your definition of archer? Warmages are excellent archers as well...:P
Operation_Shoestring 03-15-08, 08:17 PM	What is your definition of archer? Warmages are excellent archers as well...:P True 'dat. Warmages aren't really casters to my mind, because they'd be woefully underpowered ones. Think of them as archers and sudenly they're balanced. XD
IdleAltruism 03-15-08, 08:49 PM	I'm pretty sure skirmish did not work if you're mounted. Did they change that? You're correct on the no skirmish while mounted. Personally I can't see why you wouldn't be able to have a mounted skirmisher.....but that is the official ruling. Despite the fact that Martial Adept classes don't actually have Ranged Weapon Martial Maneuvers(other than a few that throw something), they make surprisingly good archers. A few levels into Swordsage(especially later on) can get you Wis to AC(decent synergy with ranger) and some teleportation (which is always great for archers). There are also quite a few stances/counters/maneuvers that archers can take advantage of.
calronmoonflower 03-15-08, 09:31 PM	Soulbows can make good archers. here's a list of archer prestige classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc&tablefilter=archer). A duskblade/arcane archer would have a full base attack bonus.
Shular 03-15-08, 11:30 PM	You might want to consider the halfling outrider (Complete Warrior) for a mounted archer.
thejibboo 03-15-08, 11:43 PM	I'm pretty sure skirmish did not work if you're mounted. Did they change that? Also, several other characters can make decent archers: Clerics and psy-warriors are not to be underestimated even though they only have medium BAB. Cleric would definitely be cool. CW has a Zen Archery feat that lets you use your Wis instead of Dex for ranged attacks.
archerpwr 03-16-08, 12:46 AM	This is on the wrong board. In any case, Seldy is a build of mine in my sig. It caps with dragon devotee 4/unseen seer 4.
The_Shaman 03-16-08, 01:55 AM	there's a scout ACF that allows you to skirmish while mounted... it makes your enhancement bonuses to movement go to the mount instead of you as well. What's that and where is it from? Sounds, to put it mildly, daaamn good. One of the reasons mount + skirmish did not work was that it allowed you a full attack with skirmish with a minimum investment (firing a bow when mounted allows a full attack if you control the mount with your legs - easy ride check.) @Calronmoonflower: The list is not exactly complete, as it doesn't cover quite a few PrCs that do not have "archer" in their name... Kensai (CW), Justice of W&W (FR CoR), Deepwood sniper (3.x MotW), Wasp Bounty Hunter (3.0 RCS) and a few others should also be included (as well as more unusual choices like the Ballisteer)... and i suppose even the Order of the Bow initiate could make the list :rolleyes: . OTOH, any class that helps you spot, snipe, or in other way brings something useful to the table could be useful - Nightsong Enforcer can be a pretty decent sniper PrC with its full BAB, 4d6 SA and other abilities.
ninto 03-16-08, 02:14 AM	A build im playing with right now, though not up to lvl, is a Centaur ranger/fighter. Take the CEL of 2 for Centaur, get +8 str and +4 Dex. Go ranger till lvl 11 then fighter rest of the way. Its turning out to be a really fun build to play. check it out. Oh, it also takes care of your mounted archery you want.
The_Shaman 03-16-08, 02:20 AM	Centaurs are quite good, but I'd probably go with ranger/fighter 4. It may be just my idea, but by and large after WSpec a character doesn't need that many fighter levels.
ninto 03-16-08, 02:28 AM	Centaurs are quite good, but I'd probably go with ranger/fighter 4. It may be just my idea, but by and large after WSpec a character doesn't need that many fighter levels. Very True. I suppose I'll have to tie this into my character... Good thing he isnt their yet.:)
angryscrub 03-17-08, 09:19 PM	depending on how you're doing starting ability scores in your campaign, you may want to consider going for a crossbowman rather than an archer. crossbow sniper feat (PHB2) seriously reduces MAD if you're planning to do a build that avoids melee. half dex bonus to damage with a crossbow means you can dump str, and put everything into dex. means you're likely to go first, too. my personal suggestion would be to see if you could get your DM to let you sub in crossbow oriented feats instead of archery feats for a ranger(a progression like crossbow sniper/rapid reload/woodland archer). that way you can have a decent mount, good BAB, and good skills, on top of being able to shoot things with bolts.
Belkar 03-18-08, 10:32 AM	There's a couple very important things that haven't been mentioned. First of all, if you're going to be a mounted archer, you need to use a shortbow (or a crossbow with Crossbow Sniper - great idea, btw, angryscrub - however it is very feat intensive for an already feat hungry build). This means that a small character (which honestly is usually better for a mounted archer, because they get the best mounts ;) ) would be looking at a measly d4 for damage. :( The other thing to consider is that a ranger or druid gets an animal companion. This can be a horse or a riding dog. And an animal companion doesn't cost anything, is hardier, stronger, faster and better than any "mundane" mount. And if it dies - 24 hours of "meditation" gets you a brand new one. I'd say go human ranger (for the feat), and maybe pepper in a single level of fighter. But go for the Beastmaster PrC (from CompAdv, iirc) ASAP. A 1st level Beastmaster gets an animal companion with the abilities of a druid of equal level +3. And other levels of "animal companion classes" stack. You can qualify for this PrC at level 5. This means you can make a ranger/beastmaster with an animial companion that is just as good as a druid's of equivalent level. Beastmaster also gets a good BAB. My build for you, as a human: 1 Ranger: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (just buy a horse this level) 2 Ranger: [Rapid Shot] 3 Ranger: Far Shot 4 Ranger: [Animal Companion!] - pick a horse (or riding dog if a small character), [a couple spells. Can I tell you how tight entangle is for an archer???] 5 Beastmaster: Your animal companion now has the abilites of 5th level druid's animal companion. This includes 2 more HD, +2 to AC, +1 to Str & Dex, a bonus trick, evasion, link, and share spells. Maybe pick up fighter later on - but your basic archery feats are pretty much covered.
Argaud 03-18-08, 10:49 AM	There's a couple very important things that haven't been mentioned. First of all, if you're going to be a mounted archer, you need to use a shortbow (or a crossbow with Crossbow Sniper - great idea, btw, angryscrub - however it is very feat intensive for an already feat hungry build). Er... no, you can use a composite longbow while mounted: You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. An excelent mount for a mounted archer is the dire bat, which can hover. A character needs 8 levels of ranger to get the bat. The bat is not very strong, so you need a small character or a very light medium one (but if one wants an archer playing an elf is a good plan). In this case Ranger 8/Fighter 12 makes for a strong archer. Ranger 16/Fighter 4, or Ranger 8/Fighter 4/PrCX/PrCY is not bad either, although feat hungry (but at least you can get focus/specialization/mastery with the bonus feats for a +3 to hit and +4 to damage).
Dog_O_War 03-18-08, 11:23 AM	I'll +1 the light crossbow idea, and also the ranger8/fighter12. This is an especially awesome combo because you can have a dire bat with evasion (if you take the natural bond feat - or what ever it's called from Complete Adventurer). You'll get manyshot from ranger (if you use the Complete Champion variant you can squeeze out two more feats - but the spells are tough to give up since you can use healing magic at that point), and +4 to attack and +6 to damage from the fighter. (This is acheived via the PHBII BTW) I recommend you get Complete Adventurer and the PHBII. PHBII gives you 1/2 dex to damage, and +2 to attack and damage (just look at the weapon mastery feats). I believe there is also some other companion enhancing feats in the PHBII (it might be familars only though - can't remember, need my books to say for sure). I will recommend Gnome for this actually - you can take craft:alchemy to further enhance your skills (throwing tanglefoot bags from aloft to stick your targets to the ground is awesome - that and the whole WarcraftIII fire-bomb throwing batrider thing is cool). Also, an addition to the alchemy - alchemical bolts.
Belkar 03-18-08, 11:32 AM	Er... no, you can use a composite longbow while mountedI stand corrected! In that case, A small archer wouldn't be too bad. And now I'd probably ditch the crossbow build - simply because 2 feats to make effective in more costly than a bit of MAD, IMO. [shrug] +1 on the dire bat.
april151978 03-18-08, 12:12 PM	Personally, I can't see why mounted archery is so important; there are limited uses like in cities (interiors, alleys, etc.)... Also, if you want to snipe, a horse is fairly big to hide when you are wanting to get off a few good shots... Maybe as a retreat and getting to the battle, but limited scope in my mind when it comes to an overall focus for a character... Scout would be an excellent choice for an archer, as would fighter... If you really wanted to be good at mounted archery, take a few feats for mounted combat for when it is needed, but you are an archer overall, so focus on all archery, not just mounted...
The_Shaman 03-18-08, 12:20 PM	Personally, I can't see why mounted archery is so important; there are limited uses like in cities (interiors, alleys, etc.)... Also, if you want to snipe, a horse is fairly big to hide when you are wanting to get off a few good shots... Like other mounted builds, it is situational. Still, it is a reliable way to get full attacks when moving - and moving fast. Has anyone tried a mounted archery build with Phantom Steed, btw?
april151978 03-18-08, 02:33 PM	Like other mounted builds, it is situational. Still, it is a reliable way to get full attacks when moving - and moving fast. Has anyone tried a mounted archery build with Phantom Steed, btw? True, you can get a full attack while moving with horse, at a penalty... Not saying the penalty is going to be super high, but on foot you wouldn't acure those penalties... Also, horses cost money, and need to rest, are targets in combat, thier food costs money, stabbling, etc... What I am trying to point out is rather than focus on mounted archery, focus on archery as a whole, dedicating some trainning (a few feats) to mounted archery (is there more than two or three?)... Unless you are almost always in open areas, mounted archery skill is just the icing on the cake... The cake, or your overall archery skill, is the cake... I still think scout is one of the better choices, as I ran a fighter/scout (Gestalt) for a while and it was the best archer to date I have played... No spells, no fancy abilities outside of shooting a bow with amazing proficiency...
Belkar 03-18-08, 02:43 PM	I still think scout is one of the better choices, as I ran a fighter/scout (Gestalt) for a while and it was the best archer to date I have played... No spells, no fancy abilities outside of shooting a bow with amazing proficiency... But to be fair, gestalt anything is going to be the best "xxx" anyone has played...lol ;) But your point about the scout is a good one. The only caveat I find is that he must be within 30ft to do his skirmish damage... and frankly, the point (at least for myself) for playing a ranged fighter is to stay the hell away from the bad guy. [shrug] A scout with a crossbow, though, and the Crossbow Sniper feat can get precision damage at 60 ft. Which is pretty freakin good.
Cartigan 03-18-08, 02:55 PM	Personally, I can't see why mounted archery is so important; there are limited uses like in cities (interiors, alleys, etc.)... Also, if you want to snipe, a horse is fairly big to hide when you are wanting to get off a few good shots... Snipe over the horse.
The_Shaman 03-18-08, 05:24 PM	True, you can get a full attack while moving with horse, at a penalty... Not saying the penalty is going to be super high, but on foot you wouldn't acure those penalties... Of course, since you won't be able to do a full attack when moving anyway, barring new, limited feats such as travel devotion.
Argaud 03-18-08, 06:18 PM	True, you can get a full attack while moving with horse, at a penalty... Not saying the penalty is going to be super high, but on foot you wouldn't acure those penalties... There is absolutely no penalty for full attacking from a moving horse if the horse makes a single move. Only if the horse moves twice the archer gets a -4. It is even possible to shoot if the mount is running (x4 speed) at -8.
angryscrub 03-18-08, 09:19 PM	In that case, A small archer wouldn't be too bad. And now I'd probably ditch the crossbow build - simply because 2 feats to make effective in more costly than a bit of MAD, IMO. [shrug] well, it depends on how you look at it. let's say halfling going the crossbow sniper route, start with dex of 20, put all level ability points into dex, get a +6 dex item, that's 31 dex by level 20. +10 to hit, +5 damage just from dex. a halfling bow user to get the same, would also have to start with a 20 dex, and in addition have to buy a mighty bow, +6 str item (+ the +6 dex item), and have spent enough points in point buy to get a 16 str, since that would be reduced to 14, which isn't even possible in a 25 point buy. unless you happen to be rolling for stats, and roll really high, or are on a massive point buy, the crossbow sniper will always have better to hit and/or damage at range. this might be worth it depending on how specialized you can afford to make your character. though it did just occur to me that a mounted archer wouldn't really need manyshot or greater manyshot, since they can full attack while the mount moves. that definitely does make crossbow sniper more feat intensive comparatively than i first assumed. maybe too much so for anyone but a straight fighter. +1 on the dire bat. it's large though, which can limit where you can go. 15' wing span according to the SRD. hovering weapons platforms are cool though for sure. at the OP, i actually count 7 feats in the SRD alone that a mounted archer would probably want, regardless of what ranged weapon you're actually using. and that's not counting the weapon focus chain. even for a straight fighter, that's steep. might look into taking some flaws if you're dm allows them.