Post/Author/DateTime	Post
satanicway 04-07-07, 01:58 PM	Any idea of how to make a effective Archer? I mean, some build that really can play like an archer, and put to use all that range part. All damn ways to make an archer do some damage are in 30 or 60 fts. Thats non-sense. The only advantage a Archer have over anyone is the RANGE. Archers already do less damage them melees or mages, and mages have ALOT more versatility/utility. A Archer hitting from 2 range increments will do in max 18 of damage on a hit on lvl 20. THATS NOTHING at that level. He can full attack and hit 4 times still do less them 80 of damage. He still can be target by enemy casters easly, and will rarely hit more them 3 times in a full attack, doing ALOT less damage them any descent caster. The only way to make a viable Archer is by staying at 30-60ft from the target, so whats the point in being an archer? Just get a big two-handed sword, power attack, and smash the enemys with alot more damage. Instead of a Skirmish Scout that just do 1 attack per round at 30fts, or 4 attacks with -8 in each, (good luck hitting...) i would rather have a melee Dervish moving and them doing a full attack of 8 attacks, or 16 1x/day, and do ALOT more damage, and having the same advantages in the pratice, be hitted by any ranged attack, but not being full attacked by melees. There is no advantage at all on using a bow. I readed many posts of how to do Scout/Rogue or Scout/Ranger archers, but its all at 30/60fts. The only descent archer builds died in 3.0 with OoTBI changes and the non-existence of deepwood sniper anymore. I really want to make a archer, i have a descent history and all, but i cant play with something that i will regret everytime i full attack and do 1/5 of the damage that my friend (warrior Orc) did. (If the OoTBI Precise Shot didnt have max range, and skirmish didnt have max range, them archery would be really cool, but 30/60ft rule break all the flavor or being and archer.) Please someone show me how to do an archer... =/
Wraithwin 04-07-07, 02:43 PM	Yeah, comparitively archers do get the shaft (no pun intended). My two more major ideas involve Arcane Archer, actually. I'm still struggling to find things that truely use their full range, without having to dive into 3rd party stuff though. The alchemical arrows might work ok for extra damage, but eh... First Idea... Hexblade 6 --> Arcane Archer. Obtain a Vexing bow (I forget which Dragon Mag the mod was in. Cheap one too), and you're pretty good to go. Given that Hexblade won't give you much in the magic department, but some of the abilities can be useful, especially if you opt for the Dark Companion variant from PHBII. The Vexing property lets you convert enhancement bonus on the arrows into a curse penalty that does not allow a save. Arcane Archer gives every mundane arrow you fire an enhancement bonus. :) Say you've got Arrows +3 from AArcher. Fire your first two shots for damage, then you last 2 as touch attacks that deal no damage, to impose a -3 penalty on the targets Attacks/DamageRolls/Saves/Checks for one round. I like that it's pretty much a debuffer with heinous range. Go greatbow with Mighty on it maybe, ok STR... It's got some appeal. Second idea... Warmage 6, Fighter 4 --> Arcane Archer. Take the Practiced Spellcaster feat so your total caster level 10. With a Mighty +2 greatbow and weapon Spec, without AArcher's arrow imbue, you potentially hit for 1d10+4 at 780ft range. If you take only a single shot, you could hit for that, plus a 10d6 Fireball at the same range at level 12th level. Warmage gives you a lot of juicy AoE spells that you can slap on to arrows with incredible range. Just tapping 3rd level spells, you woulsn't need more than a Charisma of 13, though Int is still good for adding your Int to spell damage rolls. :) At 20th, each arrow would be doing 1d10+9 (from a mundane arrow) at a 780ft range (without the feat that increses your incriment even more), with several options of spells to dump into it. As a full round action, you could metamagic a spell and fire it. Either way, you'd be ready for Epic Progression of AArcher, no pause in growth. Again to the lamentation though. I am myself irritated that there aren't any ways to make Archers good at what they're supposed to be good at (y'know... that thing called range?) that don't rely on crossing with a magical class. I liked the Wasp Bounty Hunter from the Rokugan Campaign Setting for that. By 10th level of a class with full BAB, you had an extra +5 to hit with arrows, that did +1d10 damage on a successful hit. THAT is an archer prestige class. THAT is nice. Dropping 2d10 with a Greatbow at a 700ft+ range, before weapon specialization or a mighty bow or even magical arrows. THAT is the archer class. I'm actually midly offended that Wizards has yet to make something like it. :P
The_Shaman 04-07-07, 03:11 PM	Hmm, I haven't played archers to high levels, but here are a few ideas if you want to do some long-range damage. - Composite bows and high strength - basically obvious. With (improved) rapid shot and maybe haste, you could still do a bit of damage - weapon enhancements - can make a huge difference. Splitting is among the best, but any enhancement that can do ability damage (wounding or weakening? - the str. draining one from Shining South) can also be quite good. X Burst weapons can be handy. Poison can also be quite nice. 4 hits doing 22 damage each might not be much, but when each of them carries a DC 20 fort save for 2d6 strength damage (not that hard at higher levels), someone might drop unconscious before they get to you - or get away. I think ability damage stacks, so have fun. - PrCs: technically, the deepwood sniper and the peerless archer are still valid. If you don't want spells, they can be very good (insane criticals and "power shot" respectively). I'm a bit doubtful about the arcane archer, although it might be nice with a duskblade or warmage. Just be sure to max spot - you can't hit what you can't see, and just seeing something at 500+ feet can be hard. If you don't mind a bit of a hit to the BAB, I'm thinking Justice of Weald and Woe (Champions of Ruin). - Spells: check Champions of Ruin and whichever book gave rangers Hunter's Mercy (the critical threat one, not the non-lethal damage one). Being able to almost "order" a critical - with a bow - is quite good (a wand of this might be worth it). Especially if you're a deepwood sniper with a X burst weapon, I would say. Exacting shot can also be sweet, especially if it works with Hunter's mercy (and I think it should). - Feats - I guess either improved rapid shot or greater manyshot could be quite nice. Weapon mastery would also help if you can get it, and precise shot can be good if things get messy and close-by (as well as for splitting weapons). The psionical feats can be great, too (Fell shot can be worth it against high-AC foes).
Empiro 04-07-07, 03:26 PM	The advantage of the archer is that you can always do the damage consistently, even if it isn't as much as a meleer. You can bypass most forms of DR easily. At higher levels, when you have the gold, building up a nice little collection of Bane Arrows will pretty much let you face any opponent and deal good damage. You don't need to get close to an enemy, giving up full attacks, and you can shoot several arrows even if you move, if you get multi-shot. I do agree that since the arrow enhancement and bow enhancement no longer stack in 3.5, it really made archers worse, especially the Arcane Archer. You can also add the splitting enhancement on your bow. That one is very good.
The_Shaman 04-07-07, 03:30 PM	Actually, I think they do, it's just not the +x enhancements. It might be good if someone has more experience with the ranged trick shots from CWarrior. The ability to sunder a mage's spell component pouch or to pin a thief's armor to a tree can be quite useful if you have a feat or two to spare.
ZocckCastlestorm 04-07-07, 03:41 PM	Do not forget the PHB II Feats, especially Ranged Weapon Mastery(Piercing). It grants an ADDITIONAL +2 to-hit & +2 to Damage! This Feat also grants +20' to Range Increment. Also look at Penatrating Shot Feat: It turns a arrow shot into a "Line Attack"! Blow through Foe after Foe in a 60' Line means that just 1 arrow/action can affect up to 12 Medium Targets! Also get Bracers of Archery-Greater if you can. Thay are worth it. Also Look at Far Shot Feat. Having a Range Penalty of only -10 at 825 Ft is pretty cool. Adding Ranged Weapon Mastery(Piercing) brings the same Penalty at 925Ft! At 8th Level, a Caster with a Spell of Long Range (400' + 40' per Caster Level) can only reach 720 Ft, by way of comparison. Even at Higher Levels, the Fighter as an Archer rocks! Greater Weapon Specialization in the Great Bow, Composite (1D10 Damage and a Range Increment of 130 Ft Base) is good. With both Far Shot and Ranged Weapon Mastery, the Range Increment is 215 Feet!!! That's only a -8 up to 860 Ft, and -10 at 1,075 Feet!!!!!! Holy Smokes!!! Remember that an archer-type cannot "spend" BAB in any way, so your accuracy should still be nasty, even at serious ranges! Good Luck!
Vaelan 04-07-07, 03:51 PM	I mean, some build that really can play like an archer, and put to use all that range part. Any archer can put their range to use. They just aren't as effective at range as they are close up. Is several rounds of damage that is usually free not enough for you?
crimsonwolf 04-07-07, 04:04 PM	relly if you want to get bad with it...DuskBlade archer with somatic weapon cast fireball then you just pick off your dead foes
Max Octavious Xavier 04-07-07, 04:05 PM	An advantage of being an archer, you can do full attacks without needing to worry about a full attack in return. You may do less damage with each hit, but you should get more attacks at less risk than the "charge and melee" folks.
The_Shaman 04-07-07, 04:54 PM	I'm just wondering - how many non-epic characters have the spot check to even see something 800 feet away:confused: ? That's a hefty -80 to the check right there.
Maraxus 04-07-07, 05:05 PM	The great advantage of being an archer is, that you can put everything you have into your offence. That means: Max out Dex and have a very high Strength, too. All the other abilities are of minor importance. Put all your money into a good bow and an arrow selection. There are other useful items, too, like a Hand of Glory (see invisibility), Greater Bracers of Archery (obviously), Gloves of Dex (obviously), boots of speed (haste) and a few others. And actually, that he can deal lots of damage with a full attack is only partially the advantage of the archer. It's also great, that he can deal lot's of damage with a standard action (this means: With a readied action against spellcasting. It is horrible to se for a fighter when the maxed out concentration of the mage succedes against the readied attack. With a manyshot, this is more then difficult. What is infact missing is a bit of power after level 12-16. Before this, a straight fighter is best (unless you can get a home-updated version of the peerless archer; the "sharp-shooting" ability needs some creative revising). One option is the Kensai. Maybe you get a version that get's a Dex-Power Boost abilty instead of a Str-Boost. If you go right for Kensai and take the 10 levels of it, you have a +10 weapon quite early But Generally fighter is just fine.
crimsonwolf 04-07-07, 05:11 PM	collapses able field teloscope
Argaud 04-07-07, 05:39 PM	I'm just wondering - how many non-epic characters have the spot check to even see something 800 feet away:confused: ? That's a hefty -80 to the check right there. Automatic success unless the target is actively hiding and has cover. At 800 miles... you can still automatically Spot a non-hiding target :D
Maraxus 04-07-07, 06:40 PM	Wood Elf Archer (Str 18, Dex 20) Level - Feats 1: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot 2: Precise Shot 3: Exotic Weapon Prof (Greatbow) 4: Weapon Focus (Greatbow) 6: Weapon Spec. (Greatbow), Manyshot 8: Impr. Rapid Shot (Comp. Warrior) 9: Greater Weapon Focus (Greatbow) 10: Ranged Weapon Mastery (piercing) (PHB II) 12: Improved Precise Shot, Greater Weapon Spec. (Greatbow) 14: Greater Manyshot 15: Improved Critical (Greatbow) 16: "Custom feat of fun" 18: Weapon Supermancy (Greatbow), "Custom feat of fun" 20: "Custom feat of fun" 3 feats where nothing level apropriate is available one could be Ranged Sunder or you take "Wild Talent - Psionic Shot - Fell Shot" or "Dodge - Mobility - Shot on the run", through this is not apropriate for a 16th-20th level fighter. A reasonable DM will likely work something custom out with you, like: Greater Rapid shot Requires: Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Rapid Shot, BAB 11 Benefit: You get another ranged attack at -5 Superior Rapid Shot Requires: Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Rapid Shot, Greater Manyshot, Greater Rapid Shot, BAB 16 Benefit: You get another attack with your bow at -10 Epic Rapid Shot [Epic] Requires: Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Rapid Shot, Greater Manyshot, Greater Rapid Shot, BAB 23 Benefit: Instead of the normal attacks granded through the Rapid shot feats, you get one bonus attack for every attack you make. If you attack with two or more hands, this applies only to your primary hand. Sickening Shot Requires: Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Weapon Focus in a Ranged weapon, BAB 16 Benefit: In place of an attack, you can make a sickening shot with a ranged weapon you have Weapon Focus in. This takes a -2 penalty to attack, if the victim of the attack is hit, it makes a Fortitude save against DC 10+ 1/2 your character level + your Dexterity Mod. If he fails, he is sickened for 1 round. Any target must only make 1 save a turn, no matter how often you hit it. Dazing Shot Requires: Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus in a Ranged weapon, Sickening Shot, BAB 18 Benefit: In place of an attack, you can make a dazing shot with a ranged weapon you have Greater Weapon Focus in. This takes a -5 penalty to attack, if the victim of the attack is hit, it makes a Fortitude save against DC 10+ 1/2 your character level + your Dexterity Mod. If he fails, he is dazed for 1 round. Any target must only make 1 save a turn, no matter how often you hit it. A single shot can only be either sickening or dazing (but a target can get both sickend and dazed if you hit it with both abilities in a round). Stunning Shot Requires: Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus in a Ranged weapon, Ranged weapon mastery of the appropriate damage type, Sickening Shot, Dazing Shot, BAB 18 Benefit: In place of an attack, you can make a stunning shot with a ranged weapon you have Greater Weapon Focus in and Ranged Weapon Mastery for. This takes a -10 penalty to attack, if the victim of the attack is hit, it makes a Fortitude save against DC 10+ 1/2 your character level + your Dexterity Mod. If he fails, he is stunned for 1 round. Any target must only make 1 save a turn, no matter how often you hit it. A single shot can only be either sickening, dazing or stunning.
ninja_bob 04-07-07, 07:19 PM	Automatic success unless the target is actively hiding and has cover. At 800 miles... you can still automatically Spot a non-hiding target :D That is assuming there is nothing in the way. Just because something isn't trying it's best to hide behind a tree don't make it invisible. And for the most damage spells and psionics are always going to do more damage and mages (ect.) will always have more instant death effects that anyone that relies a weapon for damage. I always thought this was quite the suck. Why should I have to learn magic just to hurt someone? But if you toned down the magic (to allow others to keep pace) then you'd have to tone down the monsters... and then they would also be quite sucktackular... Quite a conundrum. I think there’s a basic psionic power that deals 20 d 6 piercing damage as a ranged touch attack (standard action) but that can be boosted by feats and stuff. When will any archer be able to do that? (ave 70 damage from one action before boots which can easily add another 35) And mages can basically just become invincible in about two turns and then any damage they deal after that is free from the threat of retaliatory attacks from silly sword swingers. The whole magic > sword sort of makes sense but the argument of “only so many times a day” doesn’t really hold water when that number is over 30
The_Shaman 04-07-07, 08:10 PM	Automatic success unless the target is actively hiding and has cover. At 800 miles... you can still automatically Spot a non-hiding target :D The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it. Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant). It can be used to detect hiding enemies, but I'd say that it could be used simply to distinguish faraway figures. Reminds me of that moment in the LotR movie where Legolas saw some orcs that were practically on the horizon.
Argaud 04-07-07, 09:30 PM	I think there’s a basic psionic power that deals 20 d 6 piercing damage as a ranged touch attack (standard action) but that can be boosted by feats and stuff. At what level does it happen and how many times in a battle can the psion do that? When will any archer be able to do that? (ave 70 damage from one action before boots which can easily add another 35) Depends on the level. A good archer (fighter) with the right gear can inflict over 400 hp of damage to an AC40 enemy by level 20. Rangers and zen archer clerics can do close to that, or even more if given a couple rounds to buff.
satanicway 04-07-07, 09:46 PM	The Ranged Weapon Mastery dont give you +2 to hit and damage, it just gives the improved focus and weapon specialization to all ranged weapons you use. It didnt stack with the normal focus or weapon specialization. ( Yes its pretty weak talent imo. I was sure it was other way too, till i read it again, in the talent description table it says "Applys your imp focus and specialization to all weapons of same kind"; I really dont want to depend on casting abilitys. =/ Argaud, i really dont know how your archers (not casters) can hit for 400 on a round. o_o Anyone knows where i can find if 3.0 PrCs are still valid in 3.5? My DM will just accept something official for this matters. Many of the 3.0 PrCs were totally broken and overpowered, like weapon master, and he never got reprinted, so if its usable that way, its WAYYYY overpowered.
boatmanj 04-07-07, 09:47 PM	I dunno, seems tough to do 400 damage with an archer in one turn without criticals, unless your equipment is truely insane. What's the build to do that with?
Argaud 04-07-07, 09:58 PM	The Ranged Weapon Mastery dont give you +2 to hit and damage, it just gives the improved focus and weapon specialization to all ranged weapons you use. It didnt stack with the normal focus or weapon specialization. Yes, it stacks. It is pretty clear it stacks in the feat description, but has also been confirmed by CustServ. There have been a few threads about this point already.
Argaud 04-07-07, 10:03 PM	I dunno, seems tough to do 400 damage with an archer in one turn without criticals, unless your equipment is truely insane. What's the build to do that with? The build has been posted recently in the forums. It is based in using improved rapid shot, boots of haste and a Split bow to fire 12 arrows/round. Let me see if I have saved it somewhere... Found it: Level 20 Archer. Dex 32, Str 22 (ideally, a wood elf starting with 16 in both). To hit: +20 (bab) + 4 (feats) + 11 (dex) + 5 (magic) + 2 (bracers of archery) + 1 (haste from boots) = 43 Full attack with improved rapid shot, weapon supremacy, improved critical, a split bow and haste is +43/43/43/43/43/43/38/38/33/33/28/28. Weapon is a +5 split magebane surestrike bow. Many arrows of all kinds (cold iron by default, but there will be silver, adamantine, flight arrow, blunt arrows, etc) will be carried in a portable hole or quiver of Ethlona (sp). Initiative can be around +15 (wiith improved initiative, recommended to catch enemies flatfooted). Maybe more with some items (like Eager daggers). Average damage at level 20 will be ~400 hp/round (~30 damage each arrow, plus criticals - at least one/round for triple damage).
crimsonwolf 04-07-07, 10:19 PM	what class is archer???? :S
boatmanj 04-07-07, 10:22 PM	Okay, that explains why it's kind of unfathomable, i don't know what any of those special abilities do, what books are Surestrike, Mage Bane, and Split from? It's a good build, but it looks like it's mostly (if not wholly) based on equipment.
Argaud 04-07-07, 10:50 PM	Okay, that explains why it's kind of unfathomable, i don't know what any of those special abilities do, what books are Surestrike, Mage Bane, and Split from? It's a good build, but it looks like it's mostly (if not wholly) based on equipment. Magebane... Complete Adventurer, I think (+1 property, bane against any target with arcane spells or slas) Surestrike... Player Guide to Faerun (+1 property, gets through DR/alignment) Splitting... Champions of Ruin (+3 property only for ranged weapons, every arrow shot divides in two, and each strikes separately)
satanicway 04-07-07, 10:59 PM	The trick is the splitting enchant so... interesting. I dont know what build to use so: Fighter 20 - Pure fighter for Ranged Mastery Ranger / DeepWood Archer / Cragtop archer / Fighter Fighter / DeepWood Archer / Cragtop archer Well i need to think alittle. Some ideas would be cool. ( Anyone knows if PrCs from the old 3.0 books that didnt reappear in 3.5 books are still officialy valid for 3.5? )
Argaud 04-07-07, 11:06 PM	The trick is the splitting enchant so... interesting. I dont know what build to use so: Fighter 20 - Pure fighter for Ranged Mastery Ranger / DeepWood Archer / Cragtop archer / Fighter Fighter / DeepWood Archer / Cragtop archer Check out the Peerless Archer PrC in Silver Marches? There is also Order of the Bow Initiate, of course, although it is more for the single-shot snipper archer than for the shot-many-arrows archer.
satanicway 04-07-07, 11:18 PM	The OoTBI isnt a sniper, cause his precise shot of 5d8 that takes standar action is for 30/60 fts only... its crap. =/ The peerless archer is 3.0, i need confirmation if they are still valid (officialy) in 3.5. =/ Ranger 2 / Fighter 6 / Peerless Archer 8 / Cragtop Archer 4 Maybe this can be a viable build. Anyone knows that feat or bow (i dont remember) that lets you do melee strikes with the bow? Where is it? (This plus Peerless threaten makes you threat enemys like you are using a Spiked Chain, that can be useful...) Im still not sure, any more ideas?
ZocckCastlestorm 04-07-07, 11:21 PM	The Ranged Weapon Mastery dont give you +2 to hit and damage, it just gives the improved focus and weapon specialization to all ranged weapons you use. It didnt stack with the normal focus or weapon specialization. ( Yes its pretty weak talent imo. I was sure it was other way too, till i read it again, in the talent description table it says "Applys your imp focus and specialization to all weapons of same kind" Acually, the "Ask the Sage" in Dragon Magazine (I forget the #, but it was the one about the transdimensional tavern) stated that the Bonuses DO Stack with one another. I also note the more basic Rule of Stacking; That any Unnamed Bonuses always Stack with other Bonuses of the same type (To Hit/Damage/A Skill Check). As the Ranged Weapon Mastery's Bonuses are unnamed, I figure that the Feats will Stack.
satanicway 04-07-07, 11:52 PM	Acually, the "Ask the Sage" in Dragon Magazine (I forget the #, but it was the one about the transdimensional tavern) stated that the Bonuses DO Stack with one another. I also note the more basic Rule of Stacking; That any Unnamed Bonuses always Stack with other Bonuses of the same type (To Hit/Damage/A Skill Check). As the Ranged Weapon Mastery's Bonuses are unnamed, I figure that the Feats will Stack. The problem isnt if the bonus stack, i know they are unnamed bonus and should stack. The problem is that in the feat table it says: "Apply the imp focus and specialization to all weapons of same kind" So that +2 to hit and +2 to damage in the feat description was from the imp focus and the specialization that now would work with any weapon of same kind. But i guess i was wrong so, and it stacks. Alot better kekekeke.
Maraxus 04-08-07, 12:06 AM	Valid and official ... are you playing D&D or holding a juristic seminar? No, it's not official anymore, becourse it speaks of 3/4 cover and concealment, half and quarter cover and concealm. 3.5 does not have this anymore, so it needs to be changed to normal game terms. Sharp Shooting 1-3: For every point of sharp shooting, the Peerless archer reduces the opponents AC Bonus granded by cover or improved cover by 2 and the bonus granded by any grade of concealment by 10% That would be the closest, one can get. And now it's valid again - Still not official, of course. "(This plus Peerless threaten makes you threat enemys like you are using a Spiked Chain, that can be useful...)" No, the ability you are talking about gives reach like a Guisame. About the build: If you plan on using the Greatbow, I'd add in a level of Exotic weapon master for Close-Combat Shot. Get a chain Shirt with armor Spikes and then you really threaten like a spiked chain. About above: Wow, I did not know of the Splitting Anchantment, too. Sounds to good to be true. And about (Ranged) Weapon Mastery: The table is only a short note. Look at the text.
boatmanj 04-08-07, 12:13 AM	I was the same way on the weapon mastery feats. I know they've officially said they stack, but when you read the feat description in the PH2, i wouldn't think it would. "You have mastered a wide range of weapons. Your training with one specific weapon now extends to other weapons of a similar sort." That wounds like the new bonuses you get apply to everything but your specific weapon. I know officially it doesn't, but it's poorly worded given how it actually works.
StruckingFuggle 04-08-07, 12:21 AM	It's a good build, but it looks like it's mostly (if not wholly) based on equipment. Welcome to D&D, where a Disjunction is worse than Death.. :) Also, someone mentioned it in passing, but if you're going to play a long-rang sniper, the Cragtop Archer class is hard to beat outdoors (and indoors, sniping doesn't really work) ... ... Also, in my opinion, and that's just my opinion, Peerless Archer is dead after level 3, and your class levels are better spent elsewhere (say, Peerless Archer 3, Cragtop Archer 4, and then as much Deepwood Sniper as you can fit in... by the time they GET to you, they're a pincushion).
boatmanj 04-08-07, 12:24 AM	Is there any decent archer builds for a low magic campaign? I mean, equipment is great and all, but there are a number of classes that are great in low and high magic, however I've not really seen any great Archer builds that don't revolve around equipment.. It's also wierd how few Archer PrCs there are.. I mean was anything reprinted in 3.5 apart from Order of the Bow Initiate?
Everdreaming 04-08-07, 12:28 AM	If distance is what you want to increase, just get a bow with distance enchantment, plus whatever else you want on it. Doubles effective range.
satanicway 04-08-07, 12:32 AM	My DM will not allow old 3.0 prestige classes if wotc didnt oficialized that they can still be used. Too many 3.0 prestige classes are totally overpowered and non-sense... About the Spiked chain comment: Peerless archer gives your bow a threat area like a reach weapon. If you use this, and that bow (dont remember were i saw it) that can be used in melee as a staff, you can threat like a spiked chain.
Aktariel 04-08-07, 01:04 AM	Peerless Archer is from Silver Marches. Order of the Bow Initiate is from Com. Warrior or Masters of the Wild [?]. Deepwood Sniper is from... where? Cragtop Archer is from... where?
satanicway 04-08-07, 01:33 AM	Cragtop = Races of Stone Deepwood Archer = Masters of the wild
StruckingFuggle 04-08-07, 01:37 AM	Oops. Doublepost.
StruckingFuggle 04-08-07, 01:38 AM	My DM will not allow old 3.0 prestige classes if wotc didnt oficialized that they can still be used. ...Not reprinting it by name or in Spirit (Shifter, meet Master of Many Forms, MoMF, Shifter) is the same as officially saying it's good for 3.5. It's a patch. An update of some things, not a new game, or even an entire new version. That's why it's 3.5, not 4.
satanicway 04-08-07, 01:44 AM	...Not reprinting it by name or in Spirit (Shifter, meet Master of Many Forms, MoMF, Shifter) is the same as officially saying it's good for 3.5. It's a patch. An update of some things, not a new game, or even an entire new version. That's why it's 3.5. If so, where are all that Weapon Master cheese builds that can do 400+ damage in a charge? o_O Many 3.0 prestige classes are overpowered. But i suppose you are right, if they didnt reprinted somewhere its cause its OK. Most of them just need little tweaks. It would be really good to hear this from the Sage to confirm.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 04-08-07, 01:49 AM	The archer has one or two nice prestige classes as already mentioned. Personally I like Arcance Archer through Bard or Hexblade but if your hitting high enough levels you can get it through assasin. :cool: Make sure if you want to play an archer you get flight. If the enemy has to shoot to hit you and you have to shoot to hit them then its a standoff you have an exceptional advantage in. Also look at teamwork benefits. At real range the penalties the rest of the party takes can be heavy offset by volley fire (I think thats what its called) from PHB2. Being an archer is a lot like being a warlock... at high levels its all about what you can do with your weapon on a regular basis. as opposed to a mage firing away a huge amount of power in one big shot. Hmmm I wonder if the prereq for arcane archer will let you go through warlock? darkness at will. devil sight permanent. archery. Not to be negative but D&D has never really supported archers that well. Stats wise they may be fine but most adventures take place primarily in 30'x30' rooms.
satanicway 04-08-07, 07:20 AM	I Never played a game that only happened in dungeons. RPG isnt about tatical fights against monster using miniatures, its about role playing. Its about what happens in the world. Sometimes we can enter in a cave, or in the underground (underdark someone?) but its not like we go to a dungeon to kill everything and get loot. Most of time we are in outdoor. ________________________________________ _________________________ This is the build i ended with till now: Fighter 4 / Ranger 2 / Cragtop 4 / Peerless 3 / Deepwood 5 (7 at lvl20) Half-ling braveheart (18) Str 16 + 4 = 20 +5 HP 4d10+2d10+4d8+3d8+5d8+108=~200 (18) Dex 24 + 6 = 30 +10 (18) Con 18 + 4 = 22 +6 (15) Int 15 = 15 +2 (16) Wis 16 = 16 +3 (14) Cha 14 = 14 +2 Full attack = +39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24 12 attacks, 19-20 x4 Damage 1d6+5+4+4+2=18 Against a AC 40 target = ~180 / full attack Against a AC 32 target = ~250 / full attack ( Yes, i rolled that attributes, i was damn lucky on that roll ^_^ ) +4 Splitting Distance Long Bow 128.000 Ring of Protection +4 32.000 Ring of Freedom of Movement 40.000 Gloves of dex +6 36.000 Amulet of health +4 16.000 Cloak of resistence +4 16.000 Belf of strenght +4 16.000 Braces of Great Archery 25.000 Boots of Hast and Fly 40.000 Helm of teleport 73.000 Feats: (11+track+rapidshot) Far Shot Point Blank Shot Weapon Focus Montain Warrior Precise Shot Quick Draw Weapon Specialization Rapid Shot Track Ranged Weapon Mastery Improved Rapid Shot 2 feats that i dont know what to get. (maybe i can take 2 lvl from fighter add one to ranger, and 1 to deepwood, and get Steadfast Determination, but i dont know) It would be cool if i could find a way to shoot into enemys that run into melee with me without needing OoTBI 2. All other abilitys from OoTBI are useless so its 2 lvl just for it... didnt pay the cost. Any idea/suggestion of how to make this even better? Some problems: 1- Any way to not be made useless by a Wind wall ? 2- Isnt Splitting way too overpowered? +3 for double damage? Wicked... 3- Any good feat im missing?
Maraxus 04-08-07, 08:04 AM	My DM will not allow old 3.0 prestige classes if wotc didnt oficialized that they can still be used. Too many 3.0 prestige classes are totally overpowered and non-sense... @Lucifers DM: To many 3.5 Prestige classes/combinations/stuff is overpowered, too. Enough 3.0 stuff is just okay. Decide individually what goes and what not. Some problems: 1- Any way to not be made useless by a Wind wall ? 2- Isnt Splitting way too overpowered? +3 for double damage? Wicked... 3- Any good feat im missing? 1. Ring of Spellstoring with Dispel Magic. 2. Yes, it is. :) 3. Improved Precise Shot. Plus, get many cool arrows. (Bane, Holy/unholy, +d6 elemental damage) Think about seeking. Either you should have some arrows of it, or have it on your bow.
dark_nony 04-08-07, 08:18 AM	Try the my Alite Archer. If you play it with a long bow than you can do mass damage from far range.
Archangel62 04-08-07, 08:27 AM	My reccomendation, 4 Levels Ranger with the substitution level that lets you switch out an animal companion for automatically flanking foes you hit, works well for the team. 16 Levels of scout, skirmish, movement speed increase, and with a feat from complete scoundrel you can combine levels. What this means is that in addition to damaging foes they get auto-flanked, that can help your allies out quite a bit. Feats 1) Point Blank shot, Precise shot 2) Rapid Shot 3) Sharp Shooting 6)Improved initiative 8) Swift hunter 9) Manyshot 12) Greater Rapid shot, Improved Skirmish 15) Improved Precise Shot 16) 18) Greater Manyshot 20) Actually haven't decided on feats for 16 and 20 yet.
Argaud 04-08-07, 08:31 AM	About the Spiked chain comment: Peerless archer gives your bow a threat area like a reach weapon. If you use this, and that bow (dont remember were i saw it) that can be used in melee as a staff, you can threat like a spiked chain. The elven bow from Races of the Wild. It works like a normal bow and can be used also as a staff. This is funny because you can take the focus-supremacy chain (and improved critical) with the bow to boost the tohit and damage of the arrows... and then use it as a staff too with all the bonuses :) However, it is not a greatbow.
satanicway 04-08-07, 08:37 AM	My reccomendation, 4 Levels Ranger with the substitution level that lets you switch out an animal companion for automatically flanking foes you hit, works well for the team. 16 Levels of scout, skirmish, movement speed increase, and with a feat from complete scoundrel you can combine levels. What this means is that in addition to damaging foes they get auto-flanked, that can help your allies out quite a bit. Feats 1) Point Blank shot, Precise shot 2) Rapid Shot 3) Sharp Shooting 6)Improved initiative 8) Swift hunter 9) Manyshot 12) Greater Rapid shot, Improved Skirmish 15) Improved Precise Shot 16) 18) Greater Manyshot 20) Actually haven't decided on feats for 16 and 20 yet. The Scout build is pretty weak IMO. Its restricted for 30ft attacks, and only one shot/round. If you use Greater Manyshot, its -8 to all attacks. It will end up doing if all attack hits 24d6+4d8+10= 110 of damage. You will have 15+5+1+10+1= +32 to hit. With that -8 its 24. Most of the time you will hit 2 or 3 from the 4 arrows, thats 55 or 82 of damage attacking from 30fts. (A melee can charge on you for much more damage them this, and them lock you into melee where you cant shot.) I was trying to do this scout build, but i couldnt find any way to make it really viable.
Archangel62 04-08-07, 08:44 AM	The Scout build is pretty weak IMO. Its restricted for 30ft attacks, and only one shot/round. If you use Greater Manyshot, its -8 to all attacks. It will end up doing if all attack hits 24d6+4d8+10= 110 of damage. You will have 15+5+1+10+1= +32 to hit. With that -8 its 24. Most of the time you will hit 2 or 3 from the 4 arrows, thats 55 or 82 of damage attacking from 30fts. (A melee can charge on you for much more damage them this, and them lock you into melee where you cant shot.) I was trying to do this scout build, but i couldnt find any way to make it really viable. Actually with greater manyshot I can make a move action and get a full ranged attack. Add in that thanks to the ranger levels I can get off 4 attacks and with the feat that gives me an extra 2d6 if I move 20 feet or more.
satanicway 04-08-07, 08:53 AM	How can you get a full attack?! Its only 4 attacks, not 6. Every full attacking high level archer will do 6 attacks, 4 from base, 1 from rapid shot, 1 from hast. You can only do 4, all they at -8. (not -2/-2/-2/-7/-12/-17) And you need to do it from 30fts of the targert, he can charge you do more damage them you did, and now you are locked cause leaving his area is giving him a AoO. How can you be a good archer when you need to stay at the melee charge range, and have no way to leave his area safe? All ranged bonus damage that comes from precision should be atlast 90 fts to be really effective. (A barbarian would be able to reach you in a round, but not simple charge/leap attack you for alot more damage them you did to him.)
Wraithwin 04-08-07, 10:27 AM	The elven bow from Races of the Wild. It works like a normal bow and can be used also as a staff. This is funny because you can take the focus-supremacy chain (and improved critical) with the bow to boost the tohit and damage of the arrows... and then use it as a staff too with all the bonuses :) However, it is not a greatbow. Argaud - Elvencraft is a modification that can be applied to any type of bow for like, 300gp. :) You could have an Elvencraft Greatbow.
Infinitive 04-08-07, 10:34 AM	You want an archer? Try this one on for size. I made it for a more tactical campaign (i.e., like D&D minis, except massed battle rules). It ended up having the entire board be within its first range increment. The Build: Ranger 4/Fighter 1/Beastmaster1/Cragtop Archer 4 Race: Elf (gotta have that 20 dex @ level 1!) Feats: Far Shot, Mountain Warrior (prereq), Exotic Weapon Prof (Greatbow), Skill Focus (Handle Animal), Natural Bond The Weapon: a +1, Distance, Sonic Greatbow. ...And My Little Friend: And he comes with a Rhinocerous. Or a Velociraptor. Your choice, really. Here's how it works (all the little quirks): Animal Companion: 2 (Ranger)+4 (1 for Beastmaster level, 3 for the level 1 bonus in that class), +2 (Natural Bond fills in the remaining 2 Ranger levels; there's actually another +1 that doesn't get used from the feat) = Level 8 Animal companion. Whee. The Shot: 130ft x1.5 (Far Shot) = 195 x2 (Distance enchant) = 390 foot first increment. But that's not really that cool yet. Let's presume the other guy is an archer too. I say we kill him before he enters his maximum range. Cragtop Archer's Arc Shot: you can go up to 15 range increments as long as you're standing at a greater height than your target. Ok. ::Steps on top of a tree stump.:: This puts your maximum range at (390 x 15) 5,850 feet, or about a mile and some change. But it's no good if you can't hit em, and a -15 to hit is kind of onerous, right? Ok. Cragtop Archer's Horizon Shot: Sacrifice your extra attacks for the round. You can make 1 attack for the round with no range increment penalty. You're using a Sonic Greatbow, right? 1d10+1d6+1+your strength if you made it composite. For how many rounds? Hrmm. Well, let's say you're fighting a barbarian horde, each member of which has 40 foot speed, Run, and Endurance. Just to give them the advantage in closing. Archer: Ok, I'll enter initiative when they close to a mile. They're barbarians, right? DM: They're a stinking horde of screaming men in Hide armor with axes. Archer: Right, barbarians. That means 160 feet a round at a dead run and they won't get tired... that means I've got about 36 rounds to kill them all before they get to melee range. Okay. Horizon Shot? >_> The only bad part about this build is that it has trouble firing into melee... because the presumption is that nothing should ever make it into melee range against you without teleporting or invisibility or some such. And that's what the Rhino is for. If you want to, though, you can easily drop the Beastmaster level and the prereq feats for that class and grab Point Blank and Precise. You're left with an advanced wolf, but wolves are pretty good, I hear.
Argaud 04-08-07, 10:38 AM	Argaud - Elvencraft is a modification that can be applied to any type of bow for like, 300gp. :) You could have an Elvencraft Greatbow. Wow, I didn't remember that one. Very awesome :D (On the other hand it probably violates the spirit of the rules using all those bow feats for bonus to hit and damage when one uses the bow as a staff - I can see many DMs saying 'no way') More nice stuff: make sure the bow is crafted from Serren Wood (Exalted Deeds) so the arrows shot are all Ghost Touch.
satanicway 04-08-07, 10:50 AM	You want an archer? Try this one on for size. I made it for a more tactical campaign (i.e., like D&D minis, except massed battle rules). It ended up having the entire board be within its first range increment. The Build: Ranger 4/Fighter 1/Beastmaster1/Cragtop Archer 4 Race: Elf (gotta have that 20 dex @ level 1!) Feats: Far Shot, Mountain Warrior (prereq), Exotic Weapon Prof (Greatbow), Skill Focus (Handle Animal), Natural Bond The Weapon: a +1, Distance, Sonic Greatbow. ...And My Little Friend: And he comes with a Rhinocerous. Or a Velociraptor. Your choice, really. Here's how it works (all the little quirks): Animal Companion: 2 (Ranger)+4 (1 for Beastmaster level, 3 for the level 1 bonus in that class), +2 (Natural Bond fills in the remaining 2 Ranger levels; there's actually another +1 that doesn't get used from the feat) = Level 8 Animal companion. Whee. The Shot: 130ft x1.5 (Far Shot) = 195 x2 (Distance enchant) = 390 foot first increment. But that's not really that cool yet. Let's presume the other guy is an archer too. I say we kill him before he enters his maximum range. Cragtop Archer's Arc Shot: you can go up to 15 range increments as long as you're standing at a greater height than your target. Ok. ::Steps on top of a tree stump.:: This puts your maximum range at (390 x 15) 5,850 feet, or about a mile and some change. But it's no good if you can't hit em, and a -15 to hit is kind of onerous, right? Ok. Cragtop Archer's Horizon Shot: Sacrifice your extra attacks for the round. You can make 1 attack for the round with no range increment penalty. You're using a Sonic Greatbow, right? 1d10+1d6+1+your strength if you made it composite. For how many rounds? Hrmm. Well, let's say you're fighting a barbarian horde, each member of which has 40 foot speed, Run, and Endurance. Just to give them the advantage in closing. Archer: Ok, I'll enter initiative when they close to a mile. They're barbarians, right? DM: They're a stinking horde of screaming men in Hide armor with axes. Archer: Right, barbarians. That means 160 feet a round at a dead run and they won't get tired... that means I've got about 36 rounds to kill them all before they get to melee range. Okay. Horizon Shot? >_> The only bad part about this build is that it has trouble firing into melee... because the presumption is that nothing should ever make it into melee range against you without teleporting or invisibility or some such. And that's what the Rhino is for. If you want to, though, you can easily drop the Beastmaster level and the prereq feats for that class and grab Point Blank and Precise. You're left with an advanced wolf, but wolves are pretty good, I hear. My DM have the bad habit of killing familiars/companions. I dont want to have an animal companion, its sure will be a headache to roleplay, every time they die, all the "upset time" and the search for a new animal... blah no, no animals for me lol. For me the only problem is that rogues/mages can sneak into you, or tele into melee easly, and we face ALOT of casters. Having range is Great, but just it isnt enough, some damage and versatility for shooting into melee too would be great. Im between Fighter 4 / Ranger 2 / Cragtop 4 / Peerless 3 / Deepwood 7 or a Scout 1 / Rogue 17 (with the feat that rogue lvl counts for skirmish). But im not sure yet.
Relic 04-08-07, 11:22 AM	Personally I'd just go with an Elf Cleric with the Elf and War domains (elven god Shevarash with the portfolio of hating drow, vengeance, crusades, and loss, and elven god Solonor Thelandira with the portfolio of archery, hunting, and wilderness survival both grant the Elf and War domains). You end with the following feats for free at 1st level: Point Blank Shot, Martial Weapon Proficiency (long bow), and Weapon Focus (long bow). Then you get wonderful benefits such as true strike, divine power, divine favor, align weapon, air walk, righteous might, and all the other wonderful spells that clerics have access to (buffing, healing, status-inflicting spells, etc). With the proper bow, equipment, and spells, you can end up being a better archer than any combination of prestige classes would be. You will be a primary ranged combatant with the flexibility to fulfill many roles due to being a cleric. However, for sake of providing options, here is a thread that details several archer builds. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=183604
satanicway 04-08-07, 12:12 PM	There is any way to maximize the use of Deepwood Sniper x5 critical on bows? Any feat/PrC that stacks with keen arrows to lower the critical, or anything that makes me do alot more attacks/round even if they are less powerful. I was thinking about Splitting, but its way to overpowered to be used. Its something that NEED to be banned. I dont want to use that spell that your next attack is a sure critical if it hits, cause its makes the deepwood sniper so cheap and overpowered... You use that in conjunction with Manyshot and dish near 400 of damage in a round. I dont want to be overpowered and break the game, but i dont want to suck, i cant find a line between this to make an archer. =/
E_Morrow 04-08-07, 12:30 PM	...Not reprinting it by name or in Spirit (Shifter, meet Master of Many Forms, MoMF, Shifter) is the same as officially saying it's good for 3.5. It's a patch. An update of some things, not a new game, or even an entire new version. That's why it's 3.5, not 4. For all the times that it is said that 3.0 material is still good for use in 3.5 (which it is), I’m slightly surprised that no one ever points out where it says this officially. It’s right there on page 4 of the 3.5 Player’s Handbook in the “Why a Revision” box. It explicitly states that 3.5 is an upgrade to 3.0, not a new edition, and that previous material is still compatible and can be used in 3.5 with only minor changes if necessary (such as some of the Deepwood Sniper’s abilities and the changes to how cover/concealment works). For those of you who only have the SRD, I don’t know what to tell you.
satanicway 04-08-07, 12:49 PM	Nvm, its right on page 4... O_o That makes sense, after all most of the powerful combos (manly with hast, or old Power Critical) was removed. Some still exist, like Deepwood Archer + that spell that your next attack is a critic.
StruckingFuggle 04-08-07, 12:56 PM	Some still exist, like Deepwood Archer + that spell that your next attack is a critic. .... I have never heard of that spell, I don't think (then again, I don't pay much attention to Ranger (I'd assume it's ranger?) spells all that often. Which spell is that? :O
satanicway 04-08-07, 01:02 PM	.... I have never heard of that spell, I don't think (then again, I don't pay much attention to Ranger (I'd assume it's ranger?) spells all that often. Which spell is that? :O Its called Hunters Mercy, Spells compendium have it. (some other book that i cant remember have it too.) One thing that i really dont understand is why someone with allitle of sanity goes for OoTBI 10??? The Ranged Precision attack is SO CRAP, that its worst them a ManyShot/GreaterManyshot in 90% of the situations, and in the other 10% improved rapid shot is better. Its non-sense...
Westbound 04-08-07, 01:16 PM	Dedicated archers, by themselves, get the shaft so to speak because, well, let's face it....what is their base damage? 1d6? 1d8? Plus some strength behind it? Per arrow or bolt? Even with every feat imaginable you're fairly limited by this particular facet. That's because archers aren't really snipers. They're field artillery. So, here's what you do... Build up your Charisma. Get it higher than 15. Then take the Leadership Feat - hopefully as early as you can. Get your followers to be archers too. If you can, convert one or two of your PC buddies. They don't have to have ranged weapon feats necessarily, but if they can decently fire a bow they can be useful. And get some hirelings, preferably skilled archers. With your warrior protection up front and your squad of archers behind them, then you'll see some real damage. In fact, if properly deployed, you can dominate most battlefields. The Battle of Agincourt was won because of English archers were able to decimate a numerically larger force than they were (and in part because they were funneled into a nice kill zone).
satanicway 04-08-07, 01:24 PM	DM dont allow commanding trops cause of a feat. I can get it via roleplay, but its hard as hell and not sure. No leadership and mindless followers by rules =/ . Archers can be, or too much overpowered, or simple too weak, im trying to find something in the middle =/ . I hate the OoTBI revision, it screwed the class completly with the ranged precision shot thing being a standar action, 5d8 <<<<<<<<<< full attacking.
TangeFree 04-08-07, 01:57 PM	Well, here's a question I pose to you. Do you want to be the damage dealer, or do you want to work well with your team/party? You can do decent damage, but you could also be a great support fighter. Feats like ranged disarm, ranged pin and ranged sunder work really well for that. As well as Stand Still from the EPH along with that ability that lets you have a threatened area. Add the knockback magic ability from complete warrior onto your bow which lets you initiate a bull rush with an arrow and you've got some cool tricks. You might also want to pick up coordinated shot from heroes of battle that lets you ignore covoer provided by your allies at all times and precise shot, you can stand behind the melee guys and disarm the opponents before your tanks charge them. Also, distracting shot is great against mages. Here's my trick with an archer. I take rogue for all 20 levels and use the variant from Unearthed Arcana which IS 3.5 legal if your GM allows it. It says that a rogue loses all sneak attack and gets the fighter's bonus feat progression. So, you make him a support combatant and apply all of his skills to interaction and dextrous avenues and he's a good all-around guy, someone very valuable to a party.
The_Shaman 04-08-07, 02:17 PM	There is any way to maximize the use of Deepwood Sniper x5 critical on bows? Any feat/PrC that stacks with keen arrows to lower the critical, or anything that makes me do alot more attacks/round even if they are less powerful. I was thinking about Splitting, but its way to overpowered to be used. Its something that NEED to be banned. I dont want to use that spell that your next attack is a sure critical if it hits, cause its makes the deepwood sniper so cheap and overpowered... You use that in conjunction with Manyshot and dish near 400 of damage in a round. I dont want to be overpowered and break the game, but i dont want to suck, i cant find a line between this to make an archer. =/ Wait, people are concerned that archers are weak and then you reject their two biggest trumps? Yes, you can order a critical once per day - if you hit. Besides, unless you have GMS, you won't critical more than once anyway. From then on, it's a matter of houseruling. Having a spell for a perfect shot and using it to empower several shots is more than iffy enough. At the level you get it - not to mention splitting bows/arrows, spellcasters can do worse things. And even with splitting, I'd be surprised if you can outdamage everyone else, though it's a mighty fine start. As for making good use of the x5, burst, splitting and speed are my best choices. Put it this way: with several lvl 2 and 3 spells that are widely available (protection from arrows, wind wall, darkness - these are only from the PHB) or the appropriate items practically anything you pull off can be thwarted. Archery has seldom - if ever - been broken and even the CharOp boards might need some effort making it such.
ninja_bob 04-08-07, 02:25 PM	An obvious one – way not a multi-shooting scout? Granted it’s not all supper powerful but I quite like scouts and skirmish is funny and strange and unique. And I still don’t see how you can deal 400 damage a turn and complain it’s weak. Most casters deal an average of 3.5 damage a level that tops out a 70 for most spells (10d6 fireballs and such) –or just kills them on the spot.
StruckingFuggle 04-08-07, 02:40 PM	Just caught this..: I dont want to use that spell that your next attack is a sure critical if it hits, cause its makes the deepwood sniper so cheap and overpowered... You use that in conjunction with Manyshot and dish near 400 of damage in a round. Using that spell in conjunction with Manyshot or even Greater Manyshot is the same as using it in conjunction with a full attack, isn't it?
satanicway 04-08-07, 03:24 PM	The manyshot (not the greater) is just one attack roll, and for all means its considerated just 1 attack.
The_Shaman 04-08-07, 03:31 PM	Well, for criticals and precision damage, you only do it once: If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.
Votan 04-08-07, 03:47 PM	In terms of the mechanics, the Warmage is a pretty good choice for a ranged damage specialists. They are also much harder to counter than a regular archer (who is in trouble with some rather basic spells like Windwall) and scale much better with level. They are also not as equipment dependent. It's not that a good archer isn't possible but this seems to be a very strong alternative to me.
dark_nony 04-08-07, 03:59 PM	The Battle of Agincourt was won because of English archers were able to decimate a numerically larger force than they were (and in part because they were funneled into a nice kill zone). In RPG games the desiners know that, so they put the HP high. If the DnD world was more realistic and everyone had something like 4 HP, than yea Melee would be useless agains archers. Before the warrior comes to melee with the archer then he can be hit from at list 2 arrows and die. So in DnD the warrior can survive geting hit from 2 arrows because of high HP and have a chance to kill the archer.
Armoracia Rusticana 04-08-07, 04:05 PM	I think archers deserve their own martial discipline. Someone posted "Falling Star" some time ago... Though it was somehow weak and not official in any way, that was definitely a step in absolutely right direction.
tiluvias99 04-08-07, 04:23 PM	I can't believe that no one has mentioned this yet. Get a mount. A good mount. a really, really, really good mount. Your mount can move, and, if using ranged weapons, you can still full-attack. Which is awesome.
Shadowhowler 04-08-07, 06:17 PM	I can't believe that no one has mentioned this yet. Get a mount. A good mount. a really, really, really good mount. Your mount can move, and, if using ranged weapons, you can still full-attack. Which is awesome. Yah, Hun's for the win Alex. :)
Fallenangel359 04-08-07, 06:31 PM	Apparently nobody's ever used the energy bow... Chock up one more damage type for arrows bypassing DR... force. Splitting... what book is that?
The_Shaman 04-08-07, 06:44 PM	If you're in the open? Sure. WPO, Shaaryan hunter, and the like are great (but let's put it a bit higher and make it a flying mount, then you only worry about other flyers or ranged attackers). It can be a bit inconvenient in a dungeon or city, though. Splitting - and the spell it's based in - is from Champions of Ruin. The catch is that it's a spell only non-full casters (rangers, assassins, and a PrC from that book - the Justice of Weald and Woe) can cast.
PhaedrusXY 04-08-07, 07:13 PM	Deepwood Sniper for the improved crit multiplier. Make sure you have enough Ranger levels for 1st level spells. Then use Hunter's Mercy combined with Guided Shot. The first makes your next shot automatically hit and threaten a crit, and the second lets you ignore penalties due to range. Now you can crit people for 5x damage from max bow range. This might be better for an NPC than a PC, though. ;)
Jell_Moo 04-08-07, 08:00 PM	Granted this is just my opinion, but I find archery to be very sub-par when compared to melee, especially at low level. To be a decent archer, you need Precise Shot, which of course requires Point Blank Shot. So, to be effective as an archer at 1st level, a character needs to either be human, or be a Fighter. So you need two feats just to avoid the -4 penalty to attack a creature in melee. Meanwhile a melee oriented character is using those 2 feats to excel at melee, not play catch up. Also, you have split stat use while using archery. Melee requires Strength and nothing else, while an archer needs Dex to hit, and Str for damage. Then add in that you need to buy a bow to take advantage of the Str score (while not expensive, it is pretty much outside the wealth level of a 1st level character), and the fact that there is a limit to the Str, and unlike other two handed weapons you do not add 1.5 times this number... The advantage of course is that you can fire at a far range. In some circumstances this can be a great benefit. However, in others, say a dungeon where you do not have 120ft seperating you from the enemy, and are within charge distance, the benefit loses much. While archery does pick up at higher levels (and with more supplements outside of core) it's relative weakness at low levels leaves me sour.
Maraxus 04-08-07, 08:15 PM	I can't believe that no one has mentioned this yet. Get a mount. A good mount. a really, really, really good mount. Your mount can move, and, if using ranged weapons, you can still full-attack. Which is awesome. This is one of the few points where "D&D is about group combat" does count. A mounted archer can really easily kill someone with limited range and not overpowering movement ... in a 1vs1. In a normal fight with the party, even if you would be able to outmaneuver the opponent, your party might not be. About Manyshoot and Greater Manyshot: These feats are great. Especially Greater Manyshot. No, you should not compare them with full attacks. They are not for maxed out damage dealing. They are there for the other archer job: Ready attack vs. Spellcasting. A good archer with readied greater manyshot is about the best, you can set against an enemy caster. ... Okay, on high levels a Meteor swarm is better ... In various situations. But there are allways opponents with a very good touch AC and evasion and/or Spell Resistence, while an archer should score at least one or two hits with his greater manyshot for sure.
ZocckCastlestorm 04-08-07, 11:23 PM	Try this little addition: Take the Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Great Bow ;) Then, take Exotic Weaon Master for the Stunt: Close Combat Shot.:D This will up the Base Weapon Damage and the Range and the EW-Stunt will be really useful when some luck SOB gets too close for comfort.:cool: If you want take another EWM Level, I suggest that you do not. Only the Close Combat Shot is for Ranged Characters, the rest are meant for Melee types. Thanks.
ninja_bob 04-11-07, 11:16 PM	About Manyshoot and Greater Manyshot: These feats are great. Especially Greater Manyshot. You are also forgettin’ that it is there to look cool… and is stolen from many characters in book and film… Robin hood legolas ect ect. If you are stood in your boiled leather armour and a sword by your side would you want to risk drawing and trying to cut down the person that looked like this? (http://teamoverkill.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/robin_hood_men_in_tights.png)
Votan 04-12-07, 08:12 AM	Granted this is just my opinion, but I find archery to be very sub-par when compared to melee, especially at low level. To be a decent archer, you need Precise Shot, which of course requires Point Blank Shot. So, to be effective as an archer at 1st level, a character needs to either be human, or be a Fighter. So you need two feats just to avoid the -4 penalty to attack a creature in melee. Meanwhile a melee oriented character is using those 2 feats to excel at melee, not play catch up. Also, you have split stat use while using archery. Melee requires Strength and nothing else, while an archer needs Dex to hit, and Str for damage. Then add in that you need to buy a bow to take advantage of the Str score (while not expensive, it is pretty much outside the wealth level of a 1st level character), and the fact that there is a limit to the Str, and unlike other two handed weapons you do not add 1.5 times this number... The advantage of course is that you can fire at a far range. In some circumstances this can be a great benefit. However, in others, say a dungeon where you do not have 120ft seperating you from the enemy, and are within charge distance, the benefit loses much. While archery does pick up at higher levels (and with more supplements outside of core) it's relative weakness at low levels leaves me sour. Even with the extra stuff, I am dubious that archery ever really works out. There are several reasons. One is that duels at range are rare and that the penalties to hit due to range increments mean that spells > arrows almost all of the time. It's true that you run out of spells with time but you also run out of arrows with time as well and they are actually harder to replace. Spells are back the next morning. So at low levels you require a bucket of feats to be competent. At medium levels there are simple counters (windwall) that make this approach ineffective. At high levels you don't have the massive ability to stack damage into ranged attacks that melee warriors do. Besides, at level 15, a warmage is going to be better at range in every circumstance that does not involve an anti-magic field (even then, the Orb spells can be cast into the AMF IIRC just not inside the AMF). Unless AMFs are dead common obstacles in your campaign, Orbs of Force are easier to hit with and 15d6 damage (with touch attacks to hit) is hard to beat with a bow. Nor is it the best move that a high level warmage has. It's also very clear that "Wail of the Banshee" is a more annoying thing to face than arrow storm. So, at low levels, when fighters are tough the archery route is a sink for feats that others are using to be good at what they do. At medium levels you have a breif moment of not being terrible but are shockingly vulnerable to counters. At high levels you cannot beat the arcane casters for damage at a distance (and they have many more cool things that they can do OR these casters are warmages and can be much more reliable at hitting things than you are because they always have the right attack spell). I have watched archery in our campaign and it has been tried many times with a variety of character builds. It is pretty much never worth as much as running at the enemy to close the 200 feet between them. Archery prestige classes might help but there are not a lot of them that are good, their bonuses are surprisingly poor and this is an investment that could be going into another set of abilities.
Argaud 04-12-07, 10:17 AM	Even with the extra stuff, I am dubious that archery ever really works out. There are several reasons. One is that duels at range are rare and that the penalties to hit due to range increments mean that spells > arrows almost all of the time. It's true that you run out of spells with time but you also run out of arrows with time as well and they are actually harder to replace. Spells are back the next morning. What prevents the archer from carrying 10,000 arrows in a bag of holding. Or having a Quiver of Anariel for infinite arrows. Spell components will run out sooner. So at low levels you require a bucket of feats to be competent. At medium levels there are simple counters (windwall) that make this approach ineffective. At high levels you don't have the massive ability to stack damage into ranged attacks that melee warriors do. Please name any other simple counter. Yes, you have the ability to stack massive damage. Few meelers can do 400 damage every round. There are also spells that will severely nerf casters. Spellturning is even more dangerous than AMF. At least Windwall won't make the arrows come back to the archer. Besides, at level 15, a warmage is going to be better at range in every circumstance that does not involve an anti-magic field (even then, the Orb spells can be cast into the AMF IIRC just not inside the AMF). Unless AMFs are dead common obstacles in your campaign, Orbs of Force are easier to hit with and 15d6 damage (with touch attacks to hit) is hard to beat with a bow. Certainly not. An archer with Mastery and Far Shot or a Distance bow has a huge range. 480' each range increase. He can hit targets at over 1400' with just a -6 to hit (this means most of the first 6 shots will hit). How many spells have 1400' range? None. A caster needs to be CL 25 so his long range spells reach that distance. 15d6 is 67.5 average damage. It is too little at level 15.
The_Shaman 04-12-07, 12:46 PM	Please name any other simple counter Protection from Arrows. MoF has a version that actually returns the arrow if all the damage is negated. Also anything that obscures sight - okay, that often works against spells as well, although you could try to fling a fireball and hope it works out. Also consider mirror image, blur, etc.
Argaud 04-12-07, 12:57 PM	Please name any other simple counter Protection from Arrows. MoF has a version that actually returns the arrow if all the damage is negated. Also anything that obscures sight - okay, that often works against spells as well, although you could try to fling a fireball and hope it works out. Also consider mirror image, blur, etc. Protection from Arrows gives DR10/magic against arrows, for 100 hp. It is useless against an archer, who will have a magic bow by level 5. Spells granting concealment also protects from spells, as you mentioned. With the kind of rain of arrows a devoted archer can cause, though, the archer will cut through Mirror Image in less than a round. Seeing invisible is easy at high level (even truesight is relatively cheap). Adamantine arrows get through Stoneskin (even if the DR10 mattered when each arrow causes 25-30 hp and the archer hits with 10). Except for Windwall, which there is no cheap way around (at least that I know) a devoted archer will get through almost anything. And a caster trying to protect himself is probably going to end dead before finding a spell that works. But there are also a couple 100% reliable ways to protect a character from spells, so maybe it is not unfair there is at least one for arrows.
The_Shaman 04-12-07, 02:53 PM	Most of these expect that you're higher level than the mage and very properly equipped, however. Also, at least at earlier levels (before contingencies and other fancy stuff kicks in) having 2-3 attacks miss essentially means being safe for a round. Don't get me wrong, I do believe archery is useful, and often a better measure against mages than trying to charge your way through, but I'm skeptical if an archer can outdo a caster in that regard.
Argaud 04-12-07, 03:03 PM	Most of these expect that you're higher level than the mage and very properly equipped, however. Also, at least at earlier levels (before contingencies and other fancy stuff kicks in) having 2-3 attacks miss essentially means being safe for a round. Don't get me wrong, I do believe archery is useful, and often a better measure against mages than trying to charge your way through, but I'm skeptical if an archer can outdo a caster in that regard. True. But at low level missing a lot (and having the critters doing the saves) is pretty normal. This is not bad, it makes combat more fun that at high level (2 rounds: everybody dead) although YMMV :) I am pretty sure the archer is the master of massive damage at range at high level (against single targets, I mean). Although Uberchargers able to do 10,000 hp with a charge still leave any archer looking weak. However, it is sometimes difficult to setup for a charge. Of course, it is hard to beat a SoD spell with DC: youcan'tdoit and SR: Haha.
Khan the Destroyer 04-12-07, 05:16 PM	Flip through the monster manual and tell me how many enemies at each level use Windwall. If you face NPC casters on a regular basis, then yes, perhaps, several of them will have Windwall and you will be screwed (except for the fact that you can double move around the wall in one turn and get the caster in your sights again). But if you don't face NPC casters very often, I don't see the big deal. Those other spells, like Mirror Image and Blur affect all attacks, so the point is moot.
solbergb 04-12-07, 05:19 PM	Two simple, effective archer builds. One focuses on damage and ignores skills. The other focuses on skills and does decent damage, excellent vs favored enemy. Put your best two stats into dex and strength, next best into con and have enough wisdom on the ranger to cast L1 spells without enhancement (12 will do). Because str and dex are important, the best race mechanically for an archer in the core 3 books is likely the wood elf. I'll assume a nonhuman for these builds. These are almost as good without the noncore feats. These builds only show feat choices. Build1 - fighter1-12 F1 point blank, precise shot F2 rapid shot F3 weapon focus F4 weapon spec F5 F6 quickdraw, multishot F7 F8 ranged weapon mastery (PHB2) F9 greater rapid shot (Complete Warrior) F10 greater weapon focus F11 F12 greater weapon spec, improved precise shot Build2 - Rager 1-12 R1 point blank shot Favored enemy+2 R2 rapid shot (b) R3 precise shot R4 (ranger spells - Guided Shot from spell compendium is really good. other spells are decent too, including listening lorecall and arrow mind R5 Favored Enemy +4 and +2 R6 quickdraw, multishot (B) R7 R8 R9 improved rapid shot (complete warrior) R10 Favored enemy +4, +4, +2 (or +6 +2 +2) R11 improved precise shot (b) R12 weapon focus. The fighter build has a +3 to hit, +6 damage advantage over the ranger build. The ranger build has a boatload of skill points and spells that make their archery better, plus an expendible meat-shield (er animal companion) Either of these builds, with proper equipment appropriate to level, can outdamage a warmage vs most individual targets at any level. If you have a decent archer in the party, the "simple counters" are removed by teamwork for the most part. I think my own archer was taken out of his game exactly once in the last 8 levels, and it wasn't from any of the usual defenses. It was from relentless melee pressure on him that through extreme mobility (for the level) effortlessly evaded the rest of the party's ability to keep the bad guys off him, via spells or normal tanking. It put him into a defensive mode, casting spells to get himself and party memers out of trouble (he's an arcane archer - benign transpositions over and over) instead of shooting his bow like he's supposed to and KILLING the bad guys.