Post/Author/DateTime	Post
satanicway 04-01-07, 07:08 AM	Any viable archer build in 3.5? With the OoTBI GIANT nerf in complete warrior, idk if its possible to be a descent archer anymore. Doing max of 20 damage for shot isnt impressive. =/
StalkerEntreri 04-01-07, 07:12 AM	I'd say Fighter/Initiative Of The Order Of The Bow for a simple combo.
satanicway 04-01-07, 07:36 AM	I'd say Fighter/Initiative Of The Order Of The Bow for a simple combo. For what? Doing a damn single attack in the turn for extra 5d8? Great, now i can do 40 damage in a round. And nothing more, and just if im at 60 feets or less from the enemy. A Scout can do 4d6 at this level with skirmish... A Rogue16/Scout1/Warrior1 with the Agile feat (that counts rogue levels for skirmish) can do 8d6 of sneak if he can get you flat-footed, plus 4d6 if he moves 10ft, and still have all the advantages of a rogue.
The_Shaman 04-01-07, 07:52 AM	How about Fighter 4/ranger6/Peerless archer 10? Fighter is good for the bonus feats, although not quite necessary. Ranger supplies a good base of skill points, extra features, and two passable feats. Deepwood sniper is also still valid, since it has not been updated, you just need to adapt its skills and features so they fit the 3.5 rules. A ranger/Justice of W&W could also work well, and I am partial to classes that can use poison expertly. P.S.: Consider a wand of Hunter's Mercy if you go for deepwood sniper, ideally with exacting shot. Robin Hood, Legolas and Wilhelm Tel, eat your heart out... noobs. Of course, the above is fully negated by missing or someone having protection from arrows/wind wall. P.P.S.: The above might seem cheezy, but let's be honest - spellcasters get save-or-dies about the same time, if not sooner. I'm not a fan of the "You're a fighter, you don't get to do nice things" school of thought.
ninjarabbit 04-01-07, 08:30 AM	Elven cleric archer Domains: Elf, planning, maybe get undeath and time later Feats: point blank shot (covered by elf domain), rapid shot, precise shot, zen archery, extend spell (covered by planning domain), persistant spell, divine metamagic persistant spell, maybe quicken spell and DMM quicken spell if DM doesn't like DMM persistant spell Sample build: cleric8/sacredexorcist2/contemplative2/sacredexorcist8
Ulandorf_TheBlue 04-01-07, 09:56 AM	The Shaman has the right idea...I had an archer character almost the same build. By the time I was around lvl 9 I was outdamaging the 2handed fighter. It's all about doing as much damage as possible with each arrow with multiple attacks. Increase Str as much as possible (maybe Wood elf for an extra boost) and with 4 lvls of Fighter Weapon Spec. can go a long way. I've also found that the Woodland Archer feat in the Races of the Wild book is one of the best archer feats. It's a tactical feat that allows to recover from any missed attack rolls (if you miss on attack, +4 to next attack roll...that is if you have multiple attacks), have better aim at concealed enemies, and the ability to make a move action before hiding whenever you snipe. Peerless archers get threatened squares, power attack with bow, and can make own arrows with enhancement bonuses. There are some mean ranger spells that can make a single arrow pretty deadly...as stated above. Archers can dish out the damage, so lets just hope someone can keep the one's still standing off your back.
The_Shaman 04-01-07, 10:53 AM	Elven cleric archer Domains: Elf, planning, maybe get undeath and time later Feats: point blank shot (covered by elf domain), rapid shot, precise shot, zen archery, extend spell (covered by planning domain), persistant spell, divine metamagic persistant spell, maybe quicken spell and DMM quicken spell if DM doesn't like DMM persistant spell Sample build: cleric8/sacredexorcist2/contemplative2/sacredexorcist8 It's going to be stronger, perhaps, but not exactly an archer. A cleric of Solonor with the Elf and War domains (free WF with a longbow, you can consider entering a modified sacred templar wiht 1/2 cleric casting) might be closer to that. Although I must say that persisted exacting shot is going to be quite nice. I wonder how much a lesser rod of persisting would cost - probably something like 70,000 gp or so. Weapon specialization is also very nice as iirc weapon mastery does not specify a fighter level as a requirement - only weapon specialization. This would imply that you can get mastery with only 4 levels of fighter (or another way to get specialization), and +2 attack, +2 damage and larger range increments can't hurt. Not you, at least :D . It's also great for Justices, because of their medium BAB (however, due to the way they can qualify for specialization, I suppose their ranged weapon mastery would give bonuses only to longbows. Still, they do tend to use mostly longbows to begin with.
Leaflord 04-01-07, 10:55 AM	*Cracks fingers* Erm, don't ever miss the great potencial of the elven arcane archer. Aye the class itself is not worth mentioning too much. but if ya build it right you will get an insane arcane archer, with lots of damge. I kid ye not. There are certain points and guidelines ye have too follow too get there. Here are some... First you need the players handbook, and the dungeon masters guide. From the players handbook you pick up the fighter class. plain and simple, 4 levels will do, yea. talking about weapon spec. Allso from the players handbook you take the wizard. 6 levels will do. craft arms and armor feat as bonus one. :) you want too customize yer own bow. From the DMG, Arcane archer. two level will do. Imbue arrow is the thing ya want. Allso from the DMG, Eldritch knight. Woo! 8 levels of this beauty :) Basically in the end, you will end up with a great AB, fairly good saves, ability too imbue 7th level spells into yer arrows. custom elemental bow too kick up the damage even further. in my head. a finger of death arrow beats the 10th level death arrow the class gets. nothing I've ever played uses more dice damage than this builds, its super sweet fer those persons that can't have enuff dice. :) So no more "archers suck" now.. they are to a point of beeing silly. arround level 18, you can start hunting down great wyrm dragons alone, catch one at ranged and its dead. (beware of dragons beeing smarter than goblins, they need to be outwitted sitll..)
The_Shaman 04-01-07, 11:23 AM	((Scratches head)) ((Scratches some more)). That's a good tactic, but if you have craft magic items and armor aren't you better off just using spell storing arrows? It's a bit more expensive, but it allows you 2 more caster levels.
dark_nony 04-01-07, 11:34 AM	Check my Elite Archer. A rogue or scout may also be good.
JohnOSpencer 04-01-07, 11:45 AM	How about Scout into Order of the Bow initiate? Move, fire. Skirmish damage plus Ranged Precision. Skills are no problem, Feats are a little trickier. If you are a human, no problem, by the time you get +5BAB, you will have them all(thanks to Scout bonus Feat), if not, then you will have to wait until level 10 to take OotBI, but still that'll be ok. Or, if you are human, you can also take a level or two of fighter(you don't really need the Feats, but they wouldn't hurt).
mittenninja 04-01-07, 03:12 PM	Greater Manyshot + Ranged Precision + splitting enhancement = 40d8 precision damage
satanicway 04-01-07, 04:21 PM	Greater Manyshot + Ranged Precision + splitting enhancement = 40d8 precision damage You cant use Ranged Precision and Greater Manyshot in the same attack. The Ranged precision by itself is a attack now. Scout 4 / Rogue 5 / OoTBI 9 - Halfling Braveheart Point Blank Shot Precise Shot Rapid SHot Weapon Focus Swift Ambusher Improved Skirmish Crossbow Sniper Fast Recharge Deadeye Shot Ranged Precision 5d8 Close-Combat Shot Greater Weapon focus Sharp-Shooting Skirmish 5d6 / +4 Fast Movement 10feet Trackless Step TrapFind BattleFortitude +1 Imp.Uncanny Dodge Sneak Attack +3d6 Evasion Trap Sense +1 Thats what i have for now. Any idea of how to improve it? If its possible to move, great manyshot and ranged precision at same round, it would turn Manyshot and Greater many shot alot more desirable. For now this build can cause: 5d8+8d6+11 if well equiped. (mid dam: 61) (Im doing this char for a lv18 char in a canpaing, since my last one (oger fighter/barb) died to a red dragon =/ )
dark_nony 04-01-07, 04:29 PM	Be a elf. Rogue and scout have only short bows.
satanicway 04-01-07, 04:33 PM	They can use all simple weapon, its a crossbow build = simple weapon. Halfling do 1 of damage less and gain 1 of AC and 1 to hit.
The_Shaman 04-01-07, 04:39 PM	Satanic, just how do you have the skirmish of a lvl 17 scout??
Urithair 04-01-07, 04:45 PM	If you are small you can dip into swordsage at higher levels to get Giant Killing Stance, +2 to hit and +4 to damage to medium and up isn't bad.
satanicway 04-01-07, 04:46 PM	No, i have from a lvl 9 one plus 2d6/2 cause of the Improved Skirmish feat.
Kulthos 04-01-07, 04:46 PM	If you are in an outdoor campaign, I would suggest a mounted archer. Get on a light warhorse and never get within melee range of your foe. If you get a good flying mount no melee monster can touch you. This build pretty much can't do much in a dungeon, however.
satanicway 04-01-07, 04:49 PM	If you are in an outdoor campaign, I would suggest a mounted archer. Get on a light warhorse and never get within melee range of your foe. If you get a good flying mount no melee monster can touch you. This build pretty much can't do much in a dungeon, however. The canpaing i play isnt usual. Things happens too fast, i prefer to not have to depend on animals. At some point we may enter in somewhere impossible to bring the animal, and them end in another plane and never come back lol. This happened to a friends familiar... lol. (his let the familiar to scout the entrace of the cavern, we ended in ravenloft LOL)
The_Shaman 04-01-07, 04:53 PM	Hmm, a flying mount can be quite useful though, especially if you're an archer.
Lotus Crane 04-01-07, 05:26 PM	Satanic, just how do you have the skirmish of a lvl 17 scout?? He's using a pair of feats from Complete Scoundrel. Btw satanicway, when posting a build like yours, only list your feats, not all the class special abilities. Either readers already have the books and know what special abilities those classes have, or they don't have the books and thus wouldn't know what you're talking about anyway. Anyway, this thread really should have been posted on the CharOp boards (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339) instead, but oh well. And incidentally, because it wasn't re-printed in a 3.5 book, Deepwood Sniper (Masters of the Wild) should technically still be usable.
ZocckCastlestorm 04-01-07, 05:26 PM	Actually, I like the Fighter/OBI combo. Go Fighter 12(for the Greater Weapon Specialization; Longbow) and take Ranged Weapon Mastery(Piercing). By the time you have Fighter 12/OBI 8 you will have +20 BAB AND SAVES that are almost as good as a Monk's! +10 Fort/+10 Reflex/+10 Will. That, combined with the gaining of Spot Class Skill(Up to 11 from this Class + Cross-Class Ranks from Fighter = Spot 17, 19 with Alertness Feat. Not too bad) is rather good. Adding Strength,Magic Items to the +4 To Hit/+6 Damage from Feats is a nasty combo. Besides, I just really like the idea of this PrC.
satanicway 04-01-07, 07:00 PM	Actually, I like the Fighter/OBI combo. Go Fighter 12(for the Greater Weapon Specialization; Longbow) and take Ranged Weapon Mastery(Piercing). By the time you have Fighter 12/OBI 8 you will have +20 BAB AND SAVES that are almost as good as a Monk's! +10 Fort/+10 Reflex/+10 Will. That, combined with the gaining of Spot Class Skill(Up to 11 from this Class + Cross-Class Ranks from Fighter = Spot 17, 19 with Alertness Feat. Not too bad) is rather good. Adding Strength,Magic Items to the +4 To Hit/+6 Damage from Feats is a nasty combo. Besides, I just really like the idea of this PrC. Still a Fighter 20 of same lvl can dish more them 3 times your damage. O_o That bothers me. No point in doing a unic shot for +5d8, if you can RapidShot full attack with hast for: 18/18/18/13/8/3 You will hit atlast 4 attacks with this. Doing alot more damage them 1 attack more 5d8. o_O OoTBI is useless besides for some scouts builds, and for close combat attack with bow.
The_Shaman 04-01-07, 07:04 PM	Ok, I don't want to start a war, but wouldn't OotBI be as good as, if not worse than, straight ranger unless precision damage is involved?
Shadowhowler 04-01-07, 08:43 PM	Well... a Ranger would be able to fire many shots while in order to get the good damage, OotBI has to fire only one. Ignoring that, a Ranger also gets a whole bunch of very nasty spells for jacking their archary skills that are very hard, if not impossable, to compeat with from other classes and PrC's.
StruckingFuggle 04-01-07, 08:44 PM	How about Fighter 4/ranger6/Peerless archer 10? Fighter is good for the bonus feats, although not quite necessary. How about dropping Peerless Archer 10 to Peerless Archer 3, and using the last seven levels for some mix of Deepwood Sniper and Cragtop Archer? And pick up comptetence bonus items to Spot and Hide ... they'll never see you sniping. Hell, maybe you can snipe from far enough away that they'd fail their spot checks against you standing in the open, even on a 20 ... :D
Lotus Crane 04-01-07, 09:08 PM	If this isn't going to be moved to the CharOp boards (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339), I may as well post my own build. satanicway (not a very good name there... ~_~), you're going to be 18th level? I'll make it a little less so you have some flexibility in race choice and character advancement. Btw, scout/rogue with Swift Ambusher is okay as a melee build, but for an archery build, scout/ranger with Swift Hunter is definately superior. Scout 4/ranger 6/fighter 4/Deepwood Sniper (MotW) 2 Feats: Endurance, Far Shot, Greater Manyshot (XPH), Improved Skirmish (CSco), Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Ranged Skirmisher (Dra346), Ranged Weapon Mastery (PHB2), Rapid Shot, Swift Hunter (CSco), Track, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization. Any LA 0-2 race with favored class: any or ranger will do, but human and catfolk are probably the best. For a mere LA +1, catfolk have ridiculously good benefits for an archer (base speed 40, Dex +4, low-light vision, etc.), but the human bonus feat means that you can afford to take the moon-warded ranger (Dra340) substitution level, which trades Rapid Shot for Wis to AC. You'll still need to eventually take Rapid Shot though (the human bonus feat makes this possible), because it's a prerequisite for Greater Manyshot, which is the entire lynchpin of the build. Unlike just plain old Manyshot, Greater Manyshot will actually allow you apply precision-based damage (read: skirmish) to all of your arrows, which with Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish, should be considerable. Deepwood Sniper from Masters of the Wild is a fantastic 2-level dip, and because it wasn't re-printed or blatantly replaced by something else, it's still technically usable in an otherwise 3.5 game. All you need are the first 2 levels btw (going beyond that is a waste, since it prevents you from taking more scout and ranger levels to get the most mileage out of Swift Hunter); the 1st doubles your bow's threat range (doesn't stack with Improved Critical or keen of course), the 2nd increases your bow's critical multiplier by 1. Anyway, you can advance your character in a lot of directions after this, but I recommend just taking more ranger levels. Full BAB, ranger magic (which includes fantastic archery spells like guided shot, hawkeye, hunter's mercy, exacting shot, and arrow storm), and continuing to gain both favored enemy and skirmish bonuses (thanks to Swift Hunter) is really the best you can do. For future feat choices, I'd suggest Woodland Archer (RotW), Able Sniper (Rotw), and perhaps Practiced Spellcaster (CDiv), in that order of importance. Don't bother spending a character feat on Improved Precise Shot; assuming you play long enough, you'll get it at ranger 11 (21st character level) anyway, and a seeking weapon is a fine alternative.
Ghostwheel 04-01-07, 09:14 PM	How about dropping Peerless Archer 10 to Peerless Archer 3, and using the last seven levels for some mix of Deepwood Sniper and Cragtop Archer? And pick up competence bonus items to Spot and Hide ... they'll never see you sniping. Hell, maybe you can snipe from far enough away that they'd fail their spot checks against you standing in the open, even on a 20 ... :D Isn't Cragtop Archer a Goliath-only PrC?
StruckingFuggle 04-01-07, 09:44 PM	Isn't Cragtop Archer a Goliath-only PrC? Nope! :D Looking at it, I'd reccomend Peerless Archer 3 / Deepwood Sniper 3 / Cragtop Archer 4 ... and then whatever for the other ten, some ranger, maybe some fighter for feats, maybe some scout? Maybe pick one more level up of Deepwood Sniper, but PA 3 and DWS 4 are getting the best for your investment from those PrCs, I think. And be sure to smack Distance on your bow. Climb up in a tree, and they could roll 20s on their spot checks and still not see where your arrows are coming from.
Barloch 04-01-07, 10:55 PM	What books peerless archer out of?
StruckingFuggle 04-01-07, 11:01 PM	Oh geeze, some obscure book or another I can never remember; though hopefully an update of it (OR at least their best feature and about the only reason to take the class, Ranged Rower Attack) will appear in the next Complete Warrior book...
DarkWalker 04-01-07, 11:05 PM	I believe its in the Silver Marches, a Forgotten Realms regional book. Edit: I checked and its in there.
mittenninja 04-02-07, 12:29 AM	You cant use Ranged Precision and Greater Manyshot in the same attack. The Ranged precision by itself is a attack now. Hmm. Well that stinks. You can still get two attacks via the splitting enhancement though.
Lotus Crane 04-02-07, 01:02 AM	Hmm. Well that stinks. You can still get two attacks via the splitting enhancement though. It's better to just be a scout/ranger with Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish, and Greater Manyshot. +7d6 per arrow, on 4 arrows, as a standard action.
DrakaraGM 04-02-07, 02:34 AM	Lotus Crane -- A couple questions (don't have the source materials handy): 1) Is it Greater Manyshot or some other feat in your build that allows the precision-based (presumably) skirmish damage to apply to all the arrows? Manyshot only allows precision-based damage on the first arrow...I presume one of those feats allows it on the additional arrows. 2) Has the Improved Skirmish feat been errata'd to allow a scout of less than 5th level to take it? In my copy of the book at least, it has +2d6/+1AC skirmish as a prerequisite in the feat description, but an example character build elsewhere in the same book has the feat without being a 5th level scout -- I believe he has +1d6/+1AC and then adds +2d6/+2Ac for the feat for a total of +3d6/+3AC. For my own campaign I was planning on houseruling the requirement to be +1d6/+1AC per the sample character rather than using the feat requirement as written, I couldn't find errata on the subject... But perhaps it is one of the other feats such as Swift Hunter in your build that allows the character to qualify for the feat as written? Many thanks!
deanruel 04-02-07, 02:49 AM	Basically in the end, you will end up with a great AB, fairly good saves, ability too imbue 7th level spells into yer arrows. custom elemental bow too kick up the damage even further. in my head. a finger of death arrow beats the 10th level death arrow the class gets. While many of the points presented in Leaflord's post are still very relevant I'd like to point out that Finger of Death arrow's won't work. Imbue arrow specifically states that only spells with Area effect descriptors can be imbued. So fireball arrows, colour spray arrows, earthquake arrows(!), even Wail of the Banshee arrows. All of those things are well and good. But Finger of Death targets a single creature and thusly cannot be imbued. Now if someone can only find an area affect healing spell you'd be able to shoot at your teammates and have them THANK you for it!
TheDarkLord 04-02-07, 02:53 AM	Scout 3/Ranger 17. Basic, Simple, but damn effective.
Lotus Crane 04-02-07, 12:05 PM	Lotus Crane -- 1) Yes, Greater Manyshot allows separate attack rolls for each arrow, and for precision-based damage to apply to each one. 2) Improved Skirmish still requires +2d6 damage/+1 AC, but Swift Hunter allows ranger levels to be treated as scout levels for the purposes of advancing skirmish, so for example a scout 1/ranger 4 could qualify for Improved Skirmish.
mittenninja 04-02-07, 12:51 PM	It's better to just be a scout/ranger with Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish, and Greater Manyshot. +7d6 per arrow, on 4 arrows, as a standard action. True, but the OP was originally talking about the OoBI prc so I was trying to work with that.
mittenninja 04-02-07, 12:53 PM	1)Improved Skirmish still requires +2d6 damage/+1 AC, but Swift Hunter allows ranger levels to be treated as scout levels for the purposes of advancing skirmish, so for example a scout 1/ranger 4 could qualify for Improved Skirmish. You actually need 3 levels of scout to meet the requisites for Swift Hunter as it requires skirmish 1d6/+1.
Lotus Crane 04-02-07, 01:54 PM	You actually need 3 levels of scout to meet the requisites for Swift Hunter as it requires skirmish 1d6/+1. Ah, whoops. ^_^; Well then, scout 3/ranger 2 for Improved Skirmish. Edit: Oh wait, then you'd have to wait until 6th character level to grab Swift Hunter, and then 9th for Improved Skirmish... well, technically scout 3/ranger 2 could do it, if he then proceeded to take 4 levels in something else... like fighter, to qualify for Ranged Weapon Mastery?
mittenninja 04-02-07, 02:51 PM	well, technically scout 3/ranger 2 could do it, if he then proceeded to take 4 levels in something else... like fighter, to qualify for Ranged Weapon Mastery? But then it would reduce the effectiveness of swift hunter. Which is the reason for taking both scout and ranger levels in the first place.
Lotus Crane 04-02-07, 03:25 PM	But then it would reduce the effectiveness of swift hunter. Which is the reason for taking both scout and ranger levels in the first place. Well, you have to balance out the costs vs benefits of both sides, and sometimes to make the most effective character overall, some compromises are necessary. 4 levels of fighters causes you to lose +1d6 damage/+1 AC from Swift Hunter, but they get you +3 attack/+4 damage thanks to WFoc/WSpec/Ranged Weapon Mastery. I agree that more than 4 levels of fighters is completely wasteful, since you don't need more than 4 for RWM, and fighter offers nothing better for an archer than RWM. Incidentally, WFoc pulls double duty this way because you also need it as a prereq for Deepwood Sniper, which hands down, there is absolutely no reason for an archer to not take 2 levels of. Double threat range at 1st level, increase critical multiplier at 2nd. Even if you decide to cut out the 4 fighter levels and have to spend a character feat on WFoc, a scout X-1/ranger Y-1/Deepwood Sniper 2 is almost always a superior archer to a scout X/ranger Y.
Marcotic 04-02-07, 03:35 PM	Me, well, how about, The fighter variant that gets Sneak attack stead of feats. then go into OoBi, maybe picking up some levels of ranger or somthing for the knowlege religon skill, nother, intresting archer is a monk w great bow proficentcy, you at least don't have to worry about geting in you AoO's (round house kick to the face biach!
mittenninja 04-02-07, 03:48 PM	Incidentally, WFoc pulls double duty this way because you also need it as a prereq for Deepwood Sniper, which hands down, there is absolutely no reason for an archer to not take 2 levels of. Yeah, if your DM allows you to use non-updated 3.0 material. If not I wouldn't bother with it. That's just me though ^^
Optimator 04-02-07, 03:49 PM	Well, Ranger 20 isn't a horrific choice. They get a lot of cool spells if you have the SpC.
Lotus Crane 04-02-07, 04:07 PM	Yeah, if your DM allows you to use non-updated 3.0 material. I'm pretty sure one of the official sources states that all 3.0 material is technically usable in an otherwise 3.5 game unless updated, blatantly replaced, or in direct conflict with a change in the new rules. Deepwood Sniper is none of those, so it should be assumed to be legal. Well, Ranger 20 isn't a horrific choice. They get a lot of cool spells if you have the SpC. As far as specifically archery is concerned though, the best ranger spells are 1st and 2nd level. Arrow storm at 3rd is only situationally useful (Greater Manyshot is often better against single powerful foes), and there are no 4th level ranger spells that are specifically designed for archery. Archer builds can usually stop at ranger 11, for Improved Precise Shot and that 0+bonus 3rd level spells per day.
TheDarkLord 04-02-07, 04:12 PM	Yeah, if your DM allows you to use non-updated 3.0 material. If not I wouldn't bother with it. That's just me though ^^ I don't see why he wouldn't. WoTC even said that 3.0 material was usable in 3.5, especially if they didn't update it. I think alot of people like to forget that rule though ;).
StruckingFuggle 04-02-07, 04:18 PM	WoTC even said that 3.0 material was usable in 3.5, especially if they didn't update it. I hear this all the time, and run my games by it, but just out of curiosity: where is that stated?
TheDarkLord 04-02-07, 04:26 PM	Try the wizards website, I think it may be in one of the Errata's or it was in an article when 3.5 first came out. I'll try to find it because I remember reading it as well.
solbergb 04-02-07, 04:54 PM	Ranger20 Fighter20 (especially with PHB2 feats, otherwise stop at fighter12) Both of these make perfectly effective "volley" archers (archers who try to full attack every round). Even the much maligned Arcane Archer (with any fullBAB classes for the other 10 levels, although weapon spec, mastery and supremacy are useful, so fighter4 or pious templar is nice) comes into its own as an epic archer (where the primary class ability is finally better than GMW and defeats epic DR for free) Single-shot sniper archery is considerably harder in 3.5, and is generally ineffective outside of 30' or into concealment (uses precision damage add-ons) although some spells mitigate that a bit. OOTBI kind of sucks because #1 it encourages you and your fragile expensive bow to be within melee range (so you can be tripped, grappled, disarmed or sundered) and #2 because it is oriented around single shot archery, which just doesn't have the damage potential of volley archery.
Lotus Crane 04-02-07, 05:12 PM	Both of these make perfectly effective "volley" archers (archers who try to full attack every round). Scouts and the like can also "volley" just fine with 2-4 arrows as a standard action via Manyshot, and then later Greater Manyshot (which gives them much more damage potential than a mere fighter 20 or ranger 20). But see my build above, which combines the best of all worlds.
StruckingFuggle 04-02-07, 05:20 PM	#2 because it is oriented around single shot archery, which just doesn't have the damage potential of volley archery. So do it from fifteen range increments with no penalty (outside only) and lots of ranks in hide, and they'll never even get to you before they become a pincushion. :)
solbergb 04-02-07, 07:01 PM	I saw one archer designed around extreme stealth and multishot+move+hide from the Woodland archer feat. Greater Manyshot, by the way, appears to be only found in Psionics handbook (go figure - it is a general feat) and in the psionics part of SRD. It does make the precision damage dealer classes much more competitive with the volley archers, at least within the range allowed. You still average more with the volley though, and can also focus your feat investment in boosting damage further (assuming you don't have an infinite number of feats - builds with flaws tend to get the greater multishot stuff to come together a lot faster). You also don't need as much noncore stuff to make it work. All a volley archer really needs beyond the core feats is ranged weapon mastery and maybe weapon supremacy. Although woodland archer, greater rapid shot, etc are nice to have. One of the better "archer" PRC's actually is Wildrunner, and if you slap a barbarian level in the mix, add reckless rage, extra rage you get +8 strength, +8 dex when screaming and raging. Carry a higher str mod bow for those times and you get a hit/damage bonus comparable to the entire weapon mastery feat tree.
Optimator 04-03-07, 07:24 AM	As far as specifically archery is concerned though, the best ranger spells are 1st and 2nd level. Arrow storm at 3rd is only situationally useful (Greater Manyshot is often better against single powerful foes), and there are no 4th level ranger spells that are specifically designed for archery. Archer builds can usually stop at ranger 11, for Improved Precise Shot and that 0+bonus 3rd level spells per day. Good point.
ZocckCastlestorm 04-03-07, 07:06 PM	Still a Fighter 20 of same lvl can dish more them 3 times your damage. O_o That bothers me. No point in doing a unic shot for +5d8, if you can RapidShot full attack with hast for: 18/18/18/13/8/3 You will hit atlast 4 attacks with this. Doing alot more damage them 1 attack more 5d8. o_O OoTBI is useless besides for some scouts builds, and for close combat attack with bow. Ummmm...I have a very good reason to use Ranged Precision Shot: A Single Attack that will blast through most DR like a hot knife though cheese. It gets even better! Such an attack is made at no loss of acurracy, unlike Power Attack. Fighing a Dragon(High AC, Good DR and is just as likely to be airborne at the time. I know that the shot must be made within 30', or 60 at 10th OBI Level. Still, it's better that Power Attackers who often miss because the BAB was lowered to much.
FriendlyBiscuit 04-03-07, 07:12 PM	I can't believe no one has mentioned Untapped Potential yet! There is a base class called the Marksman. Balanced against other player classes, it is however a highly superior ranged character to rangers and fighters. Rangers are too spread-around, and fighters only have feats going for them, not synergistic abilities. http://dreamscarredpress.com/main/index.php?page=shop.product_details&category_id=1&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=5&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=29&vmcchk=1
Fuzzy_Logic 06-09-07, 03:29 PM	Who cares about DR, though? It's seriously not an issue. By the time Ranged Precision is worth using, it's really cheap to carry some Holy Silver arrows, some Holy cold iron, some adamantine, some Chaotic, whatever you need. The only DR that should stop you is bludgeoning, slashing, or /- This versatility, incidentally, is part of what the archer a viable damage dealer. Enhancement bonuses don't stack, but abilities do. Get a +5 Bow, or however high you can afford, and load up on trick arrows. +1 Shocking Holy arrows, when used with rapid shot, cut through many enemeis really fast, and if that's not working, try +1 Frost arrows instead. Carry undeadbane arrows, adamantine constructbane arrows, dragonbane, arrows-- bane arrows for everything, actually. With an Efficient Quiver / Quiver of Ehlonna, you'll always have the silver bullet at your fingertips.
Exedeus 06-10-07, 05:55 AM	Hi all Would the Ranged Weapon Mastery Feat do any good in a shooter build? +2 th/dam and 20ft more range.
Argaud 06-10-07, 06:31 AM	Who cares about DR, though? It's seriously not an issue. By the time Ranged Precision is worth using, it's really cheap to carry some Holy Silver arrows, some Holy cold iron, some adamantine, some Chaotic, whatever you need. The only DR that should stop you is bludgeoning, slashing, or /- Nah, forget the arrows, the character probably won't have the knowledge skills needed to know what can be hit with what arrow. And it is fairly expensive even at high level, 50 +3 arrows are 18,000 gold. But make the bow "of force" (MIC), an enhancement worth +2. It will make all the arrows force attacks, which ignore all DR, even epic. They ignore Windwalls too. You only have to worry about creatures immune to force attacks, which are very rare.
runestar 06-10-07, 06:40 AM	Well, there is the potential for good damage by stacking highly enchanted arrows with a highly enchanted bow, but unfortunately, it gets prohibitively expensive very fast. Imagine a +1 splitting holy vicious whatever bow. Have it enchanted to +5 via greater magic weapon. Now fire +1 arrows with multiple other weapon enhancements (such as bane) from it. A gish archer build casts quickened true strike, then uses manyshot so that the +20 to-hit bonus applies to all the arrows fired. Damage adds up very fast.:cool:
angellis_ater 06-10-07, 07:38 AM	I'd also suggest the Marksman from Untapped Potential since it is a 20-level base class which gives the player the ability to focus on the crossbow, bows or thrown weapons, making for the ultimate ranged warrior. Dreamscarred Press also has a number of Prestige Classes for the Marksman in the works.
The_Shaman 06-10-07, 02:11 PM	I don't know how good it is, but imo the current PrCs are quite good for archers. Now, crossbowmen, they need some love.
Fallenangel359 06-10-07, 02:25 PM	straight fighter deadeye shot from dragon magazine (dex to damage), using an energy bow (2d6+str force damage, unlimited arrows, completely ignores all form of DR), with a +5 wounding collison psychokinetic, using bracers of blinding strike or boots of haste for extra attacks, with improved rapid shot for another attack, with bracers of archery (+2 attack, +1 damage), along with weapon focus(+1 attack), weapon specialization(+2 damage), ranged weapon mastery (+2 attack and damage), greater weapon spec (+2 more damage), greater weapon focus (+1 attack) You now do 2d6+1d4+17+str+dex damage, on 6 attacks per round, with 1 con damage per hit to boot, that bypasses all DR (this is actually beyond rediculously powerful, the last ability) Thats a significant amount of damage. Assuming dex of 30, and str of 30 (not unreasonable), and 6 hits, thats 279 damage per round, that complete ignores DR. Thats significant.
Twylyght 06-10-07, 03:32 PM	for those gishy archer builds out there dont forget the Smiting Spell meta magic in PHBII. Touchspells at the range of your projectile can be great blessing and tacks on to any caster build (with touch spells) failry well. Made excelent use of this with ghoul and vampiric touch, and bestow curse.
poxjedi 06-10-07, 05:12 PM	Hell yeah, they work! Fighter 2/Scout 9/OoTBI 9 Manyshot Feat. Greatbow. 4d10 (4 arrows) +4d6 (1d6 energy damage each for arrows) +3d6 skirmish +5d8 ranged prescision +2 (STR bonus) +20 (4 arrows times a +5 weapon) +4 (greater bracers of archery) if you average it: 22 piercing +14 (energy type) +10.5 skirmish +22.5 ranged prescision +11 = about 95 damage once per turn, with +2 AC from skirmish, at a range of up to 30 feet yes, the barbarian 10/ Frenzied Beserker 10 monkey-gripping melee master can pump out way more, but the main point of using a bow is to hit your foe from a distance.
Argaud 06-10-07, 06:22 PM	Hell yeah, they work! Fighter 2/Scout 9/OoTBI 9 Manyshot Feat. Greatbow. 4d10 (4 arrows) +4d6 (1d6 energy damage each for arrows) +3d6 skirmish +5d8 ranged prescision +2 (STR bonus) +20 (4 arrows times a +5 weapon) +4 (greater bracers of archery) if you average it: 22 piercing +14 (energy type) +10.5 skirmish +22.5 ranged prescision +11 = about 95 damage once per turn, with +2 AC from skirmish, at a range of up to 30 feet yes, the barbarian 10/ Frenzied Beserker 10 monkey-gripping melee master can pump out way more, but the main point of using a bow is to hit your foe from a distance. 95 damage is very little. But adding 20 more for strength (14 with item of +6) makes that 115 hp/round. Hmm... and with a split bow it would be +4d10+4d6+20+20+4 more... so 195. Not too bad for just a standard action :) However the damage from skirmish and precision is just 33 hp out of 195, and limits the archer to 30', so it makes me wonder if it is worth it.
archerpwr 06-10-07, 06:38 PM	Wow, this is entirely the wrong board to get good advice... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=854152 That may be of help BTW the best archery build (assuming no deepwood sniper) is ranger 14/ scout 4/ stalker of karash 2
Father Dale 06-10-07, 06:39 PM	Scout/Ranger combos work best, with Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish, Greater Manyshot Go more scout or more ranger, it won't matter. They both have fantastic abilities, bonus feats, and skill lists; they'd end up very different but either makes a fantastic archer. Be an elf and take the elf ranger substitution level at 1st level for the improved favored enemy (undead). Theres a lot of feats and alternative class features that synergize well with this type of build. The damage potential is fantastic, particularly when you can skirmish undead and other normally skirmish immune creatures.
archerpwr 06-10-07, 06:52 PM	Oddly enough, the only reason I like the swift hunter feat is that last clause of skirmishing even if they are immune to crits. Were it not for that last line, no one on the CO boards would care a whit. I disagree about the elf sub tho, the first level sub in complete mage is MUCH better IMO.
SaberXtreme 06-10-07, 06:52 PM	How about Fighter 4/ranger6/Peerless archer 10? Fighter is good for the bonus feats, although not quite necessary. Ranger supplies a good base of skill points, extra features, and two passable feats. Deepwood sniper is also still valid, since it has not been updated, you just need to adapt its skills and features so they fit the 3.5 rules. A ranger/Justice of W&W could also work well, and I am partial to classes that can use poison expertly. P.S.: Consider a wand of Hunter's Mercy if you go for deepwood sniper, ideally with exacting shot. Robin Hood, Legolas and Wilhelm Tel, eat your heart out... noobs. Of course, the above is fully negated by missing or someone having protection from arrows/wind wall. P.P.S.: The above might seem cheezy, but let's be honest - spellcasters get save-or-dies about the same time, if not sooner. I'm not a fan of the "You're a fighter, you don't get to do nice things" school of thought. Has Hunter's Mercy been reprinted in any 3.5 Material?
archerpwr 06-10-07, 06:52 PM	Has Hunter's Mercy been reprinted in any 3.5 Material? Yes. Spell compendium.
Argaud 06-10-07, 07:26 PM	Hell yeah, they work! Fighter 2/Scout 9/OoTBI 9 Manyshot Feat. Greatbow. 4d10 (4 arrows) +4d6 (1d6 energy damage each for arrows) +3d6 skirmish +5d8 ranged prescision +2 (STR bonus) +20 (4 arrows times a +5 weapon) +4 (greater bracers of archery) if you average it: 22 piercing +14 (energy type) +10.5 skirmish +22.5 ranged prescision +11 = about 95 damage once per turn, with +2 AC from skirmish, at a range of up to 30 feet yes, the barbarian 10/ Frenzied Beserker 10 monkey-gripping melee master can pump out way more, but the main point of using a bow is to hit your foe from a distance. 95 damage is very little. But adding 20 more for strength (14 with item of +6) makes that 115 hp/round. Hmm... and with a split bow it would be +4d10+4d6+20+20+4 more... so 195. Not too bad for just a standard action :) However the damage from skirmish and precision is just 33 hp out of 195, and limits the archer to 30', so it makes me wonder if it is worth it. Hrm, after some consideration, I am sorry poxjedi, yours is not a very good build. Even compared to an archer made out of fighter 20, it falls short. Fighter 2/Scout 9/OoTBI 9 means bab +14. This is a bad start. Base to hit with weapon focus (before dex and magic) is +15. Damage with an awesome bow (which at level 20 is a give) is 195 if all arrows hit. For a fighter 20 specialist in the bow bab is +20 and +4 from the focus chain makes it +24. 9 points above your build! Damage from a manyshot with the split bow with elemental damage is 8d10 + 8d6 + 40 (str) + 40 (bow +5) + 48 (feats) + 8 (bracers) = 208 if all arrows hit (which is more likely than with the original character). OTOH, archers clearly can do a lot of damage :)
SaberXtreme 06-10-07, 08:26 PM	Yes. Spell compendium. Is the Spell description correct? It says your first hit with a bow the next round is automatically a critical hit. Did they misword it intending it to be threatens a critical? If not, that's pretty darn powerful right there. I loathe the "B" word but its nearly downright broken if its an automatic critical and not simply a threat.
Argaud 06-10-07, 08:48 PM	Is the Spell description correct? It says your first hit with a bow the next round is automatically a critical hit. Did they misword it intending it to be threatens a critical? If not, that's pretty darn powerful right there. I loathe the "B" word but its nearly downright broken if its an automatic critical and not simply a threat. A bow critical does triple damage. It is not much considering the caster spent a standard action. Even if the spell is somehow made swift, it is not much. Most mid-level archers are expected to hit with more than 3 arrows in one round ;)
SaberXtreme 06-10-07, 08:51 PM	Yes, but with the aforementioned combow a bow is doing x5. Combine that with Burst Magic Weapon Enhancement and you've got something really nasty.
navar100 06-10-07, 08:56 PM	Elven cleric archer Domains: Elf, planning, maybe get undeath and time later Feats: point blank shot (covered by elf domain), rapid shot, precise shot, zen archery, extend spell (covered by planning domain), persistant spell, divine metamagic persistant spell, maybe quicken spell and DMM quicken spell if DM doesn't like DMM persistant spell Sample build: cleric8/sacredexorcist2/contemplative2/sacredexorcist8 Sigh. Does everything have to be done with DMM Persistent cleric? The idea is to have an "archer" not a cleric who happens to be an archer. If only OOTBI's precision shot worked with Shot on the Run it could have been something. That's something a DM really should house rule.
Dazzer 06-10-07, 08:57 PM	Manyshot, Scout, 16 strength plus items and stat boosts, strength bow (composite), enhanced arrows, ranged feats, A fighter level, some feat that allows scout/fighter to stack for fighter feats. Weapon Supremacy Bow (which means by default you have the other ranged attack feats). You'll be dealing CRAZY craptons of damage. I am noting that SKIRMISH applies on the first arrow only. Strength, Bow Enhancement, Arrow Enhancement, Feats (except precision feats like Point-blank-shot) and temporary bonuses (bard singing etc..) apply to ALL arrows. have Fun =D
runestar 06-10-07, 11:16 PM	The idea is to have an "archer" not a cleric who happens to be an archer. What does it matter...an archer is an archer, regardless of how it was conceived...:P
archerpwr 06-10-07, 11:30 PM	Manyshot, Scout, 16 strength plus items and stat boosts, strength bow (composite), enhanced arrows, ranged feats, A fighter level, some feat that allows scout/fighter to stack for fighter feats. Weapon Supremacy Bow (which means by default you have the other ranged attack feats). You'll be dealing CRAZY craptons of damage. I am noting that SKIRMISH applies on the first arrow only. Strength, Bow Enhancement, Arrow Enhancement, Feats (except precision feats like Point-blank-shot) and temporary bonuses (bard singing etc..) apply to ALL arrows. have Fun =D Wow, this is entirely the wrong board to get good advice... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=854152 That may be of help BTW the best archery build (assuming no deepwood sniper) is ranger 14/ scout 4/ stalker of karash 2 Look up...
Johnny_Angel 06-11-07, 12:41 AM	There are plenty of ways to make a good archer without even using a PrC, but enough of them have been pointed out already that I really don't think pointing out more would add anything to the thread. The one main thing I wanted to point out is that buying a Quiver of Plenty is a really easy way to cut the cost of buying magic arrows. All you need is one arrow of each type to put into the quiver and you have an endless supply of whatever kind of arrow you need.
Optimator 06-11-07, 01:05 AM	Where's a "Quiver of Plenty" from?
danielinthewolvesden 06-11-07, 01:57 AM	Deepwood Sniper from Masters of the Wild is a fantastic 2-level dip, and because it wasn't re-printed or blatantly replaced by something else, it's still technically usable in an otherwise 3.5 game. . No, it is not. That class is dead and dropped. Unless you can show me otherwise?