Archers need some lovin' [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archers need some lovin' [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JellyPooga
07-15-07, 12:33 PM As far as I'm aware, the Archer archetype has probably the least options available to it. Sure, there's the archery feat tree(s?); Rapid/Many shot, PBS, etc. and a couple (literally) of PrC's plus the Ranger (the nominal Archer class), but in comparison to the options available to Thieves, Acrobats, Specialist Spellcasters (Illusionists, Wild Mages, Blaster Casters, etc.), Beserkers and just about every other archetype conceivable, the Archer just seems to have drawn the short straw...OotBI and Arcane Archer is about your lot and both of those are considered somewhat sub-par.

As such, I'm tempted to craft a PrC or a Base Class to try and make up the gap, but I'd rather not go down that street. Instead, does anyone have any suggestions as to other Archer-options that are available...feats, racial substitution levels, PrC's? Failing that, does anyone have any suggestions as to what concepts and abilities would make for a good Archer Class/PrC (for if I do go down the Homebrew route)? Any help would be appreciated.
The_Shaman
07-15-07, 01:07 PM Archery isn't exactly unsupported, but rather the goodies are thrown all over the place and in obscure sources. That, and it takes a bucketful of feats to get the most of :( Anyway, if you want archer PrCs, at least, check the below:

Deepwood sniper (3.0 Master of the wild)
Peerless Archer (3.0 Silver Marches)
Justice of Weald and Woe (Champions of Ruin, if you are a spellcasting archer, get this book)

Ironically, Pious Templar (CDiv) could work with a bow and if you subbed the ranger list for the paladin one (most DMs whom I've talked to about this would okay it). Likewise, the nightsong enforcer is a good way to boost your sniping - and get a few welcome d6s to your arrows. I could say Soulbow (CPsi) has potential, but I don't know if smone has tried it
Inquisitor Tremayne
07-15-07, 01:24 PM Its worth it for any archer to gain 2 levels in Order of the Bow Initiate just for Close Combat Shot.
SmiloDan
07-15-07, 01:26 PM I'm DMing for a Ranger/Scout archer, and he's also finding archer support lacking. Complete Warrior has some fun archery trick feats (Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, etc.) I'm a big fan of the Shot on the Run + Skirmish damage.

If there was a mounted skirmisher PrC, that would be cool combined with Mounted Archery. Full ATK + 60 feet of movement + skirmish damage on each shot.

But as written, the scout skirmish ability only works when you move, not your mount.

I made a mounted skirmisher core class, but it's obviously not official. It was made primarily to give a mounted character a full-powered animal companion mount without having to be a druid. It's also flexible enough to apply to knight cavaliers, mounted archers of the Mongols/Plains Indians, cowboy-wrangler-types, barbarian raider-types, etc. etc.
LoneFlame
07-15-07, 01:49 PM Its worth it for any archer to gain 2 levels in Order of the Bow Initiate just for Close Combat Shot.

Depends on how much close fighting really comes up, how big of a jerk you DM is, and the primary setting of the campaign(if it's mostly dungeons, then yes it most definitely is worth it)
T_Baggins
07-15-07, 04:06 PM Homebrew away, and let us know the results, because they gave little thought the archer.
ishpu
07-15-07, 06:07 PM i love exotic weapon master+greatbow for no AoO on me when shooting in melee. also sniping is pretty hot as a halfling with rogue substitution levels to get sniping mastery... only take a -10 to hide when sniping not the -20 as normal... coupled with the fact you're small... -6 instead... and with a greatbow you're doing longbow dmg.
Fallenangel359
07-15-07, 08:28 PM archery can be fine... dex to damage within 30 feet, dragon compendium

use energy bow to always bypass DR doing 2d6+str force damage

as a fighter, weapon spec, ranged weapon mastery, greater weapon spec, weapon focus, multishot, greater multishot, and if you learn how to fly, flyby attack+greatermultishot

I once played an epic half celestial elven archer that was 2 scout, 6 ranger, 12 fighter, and 1 shadowdancer

It was a lil... cruel... the classes weren't in that order, and the DM used no multiclassing xp penalty
zookthegreat
07-16-07, 02:40 AM Its worth it for any archer to gain 2 levels in Order of the Bow Initiate just for Close Combat Shot.

if you are ranger then no because can just use arrow mind at 4th and up. as a scout or fighter in allot of close combat situations or if you are the man tank of your party then yes
WackyOne
07-16-07, 02:52 AM I'm DMing for a Ranger/Scout archer, and he's also finding archer support lacking. Complete Warrior has some fun archery trick feats (Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, etc.) I'm a big fan of the Shot on the Run + Skirmish damage.

A Ranger/Scout has all the support he needs, imo - 2 feats that make it all easier: Swift Hunter (from Complete Scoundrel - will "fix" his classes in a way that he'll never want a PrC) and Greater Manyshot (a non-psionic feat from the Expanded Psionics Handbook - skirmish damage on all the arrows of a manyshot volley).
That's all a scout needs, a way to attack more than 1/round while skirmishing - the rest is mostly gravy :D
The_Shaman
07-16-07, 08:43 AM I'm DMing for a Ranger/Scout archer, and he's also finding archer support lacking. Complete Warrior has some fun archery trick feats (Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, etc.) I'm a big fan of the Shot on the Run + Skirmish damage.

Those feats would make a nice tactical feat (trick shooting, for example), but by themselves they seem rather underwhelming. Sorry, but 3 feats is a LOT when we are talking relatively marginal and situational abilities.

If there was a mounted skirmisher PrC, that would be cool combined with Mounted Archery. Full ATK + 60 feet of movement + skirmish damage on each shot.

Well, if you can live with a PrC that offers sudden strike rather than skirmish, I can point you to one. It could use a little buffing, though.
JellyPooga
07-16-07, 09:49 AM Would it be unreasonable to lump Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin and Ranged Sunder in to one feat (or maybe 2)? As The_Shaman said, they're a little underwhelming to be individual Feats and only a Fighter Class archer is ever really going to take them, because he's the only one with the Feats to burn.

Perhaps something like:

Ranged Pin: As is

[Insert Feat Name Here]: Prerequisites - Ranged Pin, Benefit - As Ranged Disarm AND Ranged Sunder

I've been searching through the books I've got for possible archer type classes, specifically ones that base off of the Ranger and, more specifically, grant Ranger spellcasting (whether advancing Ranger spellcasting itself or just using the Ranger list)....but there's nothing! There's a good few Ranger spells that focus on archery (especially in Complete Adventurer), so I thought it might be a viable route for a more 'arcane' archer (not the PrC), but there's practically nothing in the way of divine spellcasting advancement prestige classes with full or 3/4 BAB, suitable for a Ranger to go into, that doesn't also involve arcane spellcasting (bizarrely)...maybe I should just stick with Ranger...

Oh yeah, could someone give me the gist of what Swift Hunter does? I don't have Complete Scoundrel, but I'm curious.
RobbyPants
07-16-07, 10:19 AM I don't know if you want to use it, but I made a 3.5 deepwood sniper variant (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=811862) for my game. I had a player make it to about 8th level in the PrC. She both liked it, and had a fairly competent PC in that game.
Saxis
07-16-07, 01:20 PM Would it be unreasonable to lump Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin and Ranged Sunder in to one feat (or maybe 2)? As The_Shaman said, they're a little underwhelming to be individual Feats and only a Fighter Class archer is ever really going to take them, because he's the only one with the Feats to burn.

Perhaps something like:

Ranged Pin: As is

[Insert Feat Name Here]: Prerequisites - Ranged Pin, Benefit - As Ranged Disarm AND Ranged Sunder

I've been searching through the books I've got for possible archer type classes, specifically ones that base off of the Ranger and, more specifically, grant Ranger spellcasting (whether advancing Ranger spellcasting itself or just using the Ranger list)....but there's nothing! There's a good few Ranger spells that focus on archery (especially in Complete Adventurer), so I thought it might be a viable route for a more 'arcane' archer (not the PrC), but there's practically nothing in the way of divine spellcasting advancement prestige classes with full or 3/4 BAB, suitable for a Ranger to go into, that doesn't also involve arcane spellcasting (bizarrely)...maybe I should just stick with Ranger...

Oh yeah, could someone give me the gist of what Swift Hunter does? I don't have Complete Scoundrel, but I'm curious.

Might be a good idea. Turn it into a Tactical feat with each of those feats as tactical options.

As far as the rest of this discussion goes, I don't think Archers are lacking that much. The material is just spread all over, which makes it hard to utilize in most games. I'm playing a Wood Elf Ranger 6/Fighter 2 archer in Ravenloft, and I'm by far the strongest in the party. Using the Elven Ranger variant, and FE (undead), he slays pretty much anything we come up against. My only two spells include Arrow Mind and Hunter's Mercy. Sure wish I would've looked around more though. We had the option to spend 10,000gp before the game started, on anything non-magical we wanted. That Elvencraft Serren Wood Composite Longbow +2 would have been mighty useful, even at around 6,000 gp cost!
Evicmar
07-16-07, 01:25 PM No one mentioned the cragtop archer from races of stone. It halves the range penalties for archery and spot checks. Plus you get bonus damage and to hit from higher ground. It's a great archer prestige class.
GaffeR
07-16-07, 01:51 PM Scout 3/Ranger 17 with Swift Hunter and Greater Manyshot. Seriously.
KoreKore
07-16-07, 02:41 PM well as a lover of archers and a red mage let me assist with my two favorite archers. 1. a fighter (targeteer varient)4/scout4 with all the targeter varient feats and as man of the flaming, shocking, frost d6's you can get on your bow. With a 10 ft move you should be able to get somewhere around 1d10+4d6+6 dmg or so(assuming you are using a great-bow and since targetter gives you you ranged exotic weapons for free why not) which can generally out dmg a barbar (it did mine). The other one is simply a lvl 15 targeteer/ lvl 5 master archer from the ultimate prc book. Look over it and it really speakes for itself. make sure you have greater manyshot and a speed bow and watch your enemies fall at 300 ft with 72 arrows in them :)
Fox Reeveheart
07-16-07, 02:41 PM I feel fighters can make much better archers than rangers mainly from the feats. now if you wanna be the archer hidden in the grass then by all means go ranger.

But because of the massive amount of feats you can take I just scoop up all those delicious feats!

now if ANYTHING needs love, it's crossbows :(

But you are really right to say that archers need like a good generic archery prestige class. Ootbi does NOT apply to crossbows :( sigh you need to be a spellcaster for arcane archer. I did love deepwood sniper back in the day. Maybe i'll check stuff that can inadvertantly help out archery.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JellyPooga 07-15-07, 12:33 PM	As far as I'm aware, the Archer archetype has probably the least options available to it. Sure, there's the archery feat tree(s?); Rapid/Many shot, PBS, etc. and a couple (literally) of PrC's plus the Ranger (the nominal Archer class), but in comparison to the options available to Thieves, Acrobats, Specialist Spellcasters (Illusionists, Wild Mages, Blaster Casters, etc.), Beserkers and just about every other archetype conceivable, the Archer just seems to have drawn the short straw...OotBI and Arcane Archer is about your lot and both of those are considered somewhat sub-par. As such, I'm tempted to craft a PrC or a Base Class to try and make up the gap, but I'd rather not go down that street. Instead, does anyone have any suggestions as to other Archer-options that are available...feats, racial substitution levels, PrC's? Failing that, does anyone have any suggestions as to what concepts and abilities would make for a good Archer Class/PrC (for if I do go down the Homebrew route)? Any help would be appreciated.
The_Shaman 07-15-07, 01:07 PM	Archery isn't exactly unsupported, but rather the goodies are thrown all over the place and in obscure sources. That, and it takes a bucketful of feats to get the most of :( Anyway, if you want archer PrCs, at least, check the below: Deepwood sniper (3.0 Master of the wild) Peerless Archer (3.0 Silver Marches) Justice of Weald and Woe (Champions of Ruin, if you are a spellcasting archer, get this book) Ironically, Pious Templar (CDiv) could work with a bow and if you subbed the ranger list for the paladin one (most DMs whom I've talked to about this would okay it). Likewise, the nightsong enforcer is a good way to boost your sniping - and get a few welcome d6s to your arrows. I could say Soulbow (CPsi) has potential, but I don't know if smone has tried it
Inquisitor Tremayne 07-15-07, 01:24 PM	Its worth it for any archer to gain 2 levels in Order of the Bow Initiate just for Close Combat Shot.
SmiloDan 07-15-07, 01:26 PM	I'm DMing for a Ranger/Scout archer, and he's also finding archer support lacking. Complete Warrior has some fun archery trick feats (Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, etc.) I'm a big fan of the Shot on the Run + Skirmish damage. If there was a mounted skirmisher PrC, that would be cool combined with Mounted Archery. Full ATK + 60 feet of movement + skirmish damage on each shot. But as written, the scout skirmish ability only works when you move, not your mount. I made a mounted skirmisher core class, but it's obviously not official. It was made primarily to give a mounted character a full-powered animal companion mount without having to be a druid. It's also flexible enough to apply to knight cavaliers, mounted archers of the Mongols/Plains Indians, cowboy-wrangler-types, barbarian raider-types, etc. etc.
LoneFlame 07-15-07, 01:49 PM	Its worth it for any archer to gain 2 levels in Order of the Bow Initiate just for Close Combat Shot. Depends on how much close fighting really comes up, how big of a jerk you DM is, and the primary setting of the campaign(if it's mostly dungeons, then yes it most definitely is worth it)
T_Baggins 07-15-07, 04:06 PM	Homebrew away, and let us know the results, because they gave little thought the archer.
ishpu 07-15-07, 06:07 PM	i love exotic weapon master+greatbow for no AoO on me when shooting in melee. also sniping is pretty hot as a halfling with rogue substitution levels to get sniping mastery... only take a -10 to hide when sniping not the -20 as normal... coupled with the fact you're small... -6 instead... and with a greatbow you're doing longbow dmg.
Fallenangel359 07-15-07, 08:28 PM	archery can be fine... dex to damage within 30 feet, dragon compendium use energy bow to always bypass DR doing 2d6+str force damage as a fighter, weapon spec, ranged weapon mastery, greater weapon spec, weapon focus, multishot, greater multishot, and if you learn how to fly, flyby attack+greatermultishot I once played an epic half celestial elven archer that was 2 scout, 6 ranger, 12 fighter, and 1 shadowdancer It was a lil... cruel... the classes weren't in that order, and the DM used no multiclassing xp penalty
zookthegreat 07-16-07, 02:40 AM	Its worth it for any archer to gain 2 levels in Order of the Bow Initiate just for Close Combat Shot. if you are ranger then no because can just use arrow mind at 4th and up. as a scout or fighter in allot of close combat situations or if you are the man tank of your party then yes
WackyOne 07-16-07, 02:52 AM	I'm DMing for a Ranger/Scout archer, and he's also finding archer support lacking. Complete Warrior has some fun archery trick feats (Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, etc.) I'm a big fan of the Shot on the Run + Skirmish damage. A Ranger/Scout has all the support he needs, imo - 2 feats that make it all easier: Swift Hunter (from Complete Scoundrel - will "fix" his classes in a way that he'll never want a PrC) and Greater Manyshot (a non-psionic feat from the Expanded Psionics Handbook - skirmish damage on all the arrows of a manyshot volley). That's all a scout needs, a way to attack more than 1/round while skirmishing - the rest is mostly gravy :D
The_Shaman 07-16-07, 08:43 AM	I'm DMing for a Ranger/Scout archer, and he's also finding archer support lacking. Complete Warrior has some fun archery trick feats (Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, etc.) I'm a big fan of the Shot on the Run + Skirmish damage. Those feats would make a nice tactical feat (trick shooting, for example), but by themselves they seem rather underwhelming. Sorry, but 3 feats is a LOT when we are talking relatively marginal and situational abilities. If there was a mounted skirmisher PrC, that would be cool combined with Mounted Archery. Full ATK + 60 feet of movement + skirmish damage on each shot. Well, if you can live with a PrC that offers sudden strike rather than skirmish, I can point you to one. It could use a little buffing, though.
JellyPooga 07-16-07, 09:49 AM	Would it be unreasonable to lump Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin and Ranged Sunder in to one feat (or maybe 2)? As The_Shaman said, they're a little underwhelming to be individual Feats and only a Fighter Class archer is ever really going to take them, because he's the only one with the Feats to burn. Perhaps something like: Ranged Pin: As is [Insert Feat Name Here]: Prerequisites - Ranged Pin, Benefit - As Ranged Disarm AND Ranged Sunder I've been searching through the books I've got for possible archer type classes, specifically ones that base off of the Ranger and, more specifically, grant Ranger spellcasting (whether advancing Ranger spellcasting itself or just using the Ranger list)....but there's nothing! There's a good few Ranger spells that focus on archery (especially in Complete Adventurer), so I thought it might be a viable route for a more 'arcane' archer (not the PrC), but there's practically nothing in the way of divine spellcasting advancement prestige classes with full or 3/4 BAB, suitable for a Ranger to go into, that doesn't also involve arcane spellcasting (bizarrely)...maybe I should just stick with Ranger... Oh yeah, could someone give me the gist of what Swift Hunter does? I don't have Complete Scoundrel, but I'm curious.
RobbyPants 07-16-07, 10:19 AM	I don't know if you want to use it, but I made a 3.5 deepwood sniper variant (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=811862) for my game. I had a player make it to about 8th level in the PrC. She both liked it, and had a fairly competent PC in that game.
Saxis 07-16-07, 01:20 PM	Would it be unreasonable to lump Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin and Ranged Sunder in to one feat (or maybe 2)? As The_Shaman said, they're a little underwhelming to be individual Feats and only a Fighter Class archer is ever really going to take them, because he's the only one with the Feats to burn. Perhaps something like: Ranged Pin: As is [Insert Feat Name Here]: Prerequisites - Ranged Pin, Benefit - As Ranged Disarm AND Ranged Sunder I've been searching through the books I've got for possible archer type classes, specifically ones that base off of the Ranger and, more specifically, grant Ranger spellcasting (whether advancing Ranger spellcasting itself or just using the Ranger list)....but there's nothing! There's a good few Ranger spells that focus on archery (especially in Complete Adventurer), so I thought it might be a viable route for a more 'arcane' archer (not the PrC), but there's practically nothing in the way of divine spellcasting advancement prestige classes with full or 3/4 BAB, suitable for a Ranger to go into, that doesn't also involve arcane spellcasting (bizarrely)...maybe I should just stick with Ranger... Oh yeah, could someone give me the gist of what Swift Hunter does? I don't have Complete Scoundrel, but I'm curious. Might be a good idea. Turn it into a Tactical feat with each of those feats as tactical options. As far as the rest of this discussion goes, I don't think Archers are lacking that much. The material is just spread all over, which makes it hard to utilize in most games. I'm playing a Wood Elf Ranger 6/Fighter 2 archer in Ravenloft, and I'm by far the strongest in the party. Using the Elven Ranger variant, and FE (undead), he slays pretty much anything we come up against. My only two spells include Arrow Mind and Hunter's Mercy. Sure wish I would've looked around more though. We had the option to spend 10,000gp before the game started, on anything non-magical we wanted. That Elvencraft Serren Wood Composite Longbow +2 would have been mighty useful, even at around 6,000 gp cost!
Evicmar 07-16-07, 01:25 PM	No one mentioned the cragtop archer from races of stone. It halves the range penalties for archery and spot checks. Plus you get bonus damage and to hit from higher ground. It's a great archer prestige class.
GaffeR 07-16-07, 01:51 PM	Scout 3/Ranger 17 with Swift Hunter and Greater Manyshot. Seriously.
KoreKore 07-16-07, 02:41 PM	well as a lover of archers and a red mage let me assist with my two favorite archers. 1. a fighter (targeteer varient)4/scout4 with all the targeter varient feats and as man of the flaming, shocking, frost d6's you can get on your bow. With a 10 ft move you should be able to get somewhere around 1d10+4d6+6 dmg or so(assuming you are using a great-bow and since targetter gives you you ranged exotic weapons for free why not) which can generally out dmg a barbar (it did mine). The other one is simply a lvl 15 targeteer/ lvl 5 master archer from the ultimate prc book. Look over it and it really speakes for itself. make sure you have greater manyshot and a speed bow and watch your enemies fall at 300 ft with 72 arrows in them :)
Fox Reeveheart 07-16-07, 02:41 PM	I feel fighters can make much better archers than rangers mainly from the feats. now if you wanna be the archer hidden in the grass then by all means go ranger. But because of the massive amount of feats you can take I just scoop up all those delicious feats! now if ANYTHING needs love, it's crossbows :( But you are really right to say that archers need like a good generic archery prestige class. Ootbi does NOT apply to crossbows :( sigh you need to be a spellcaster for arcane archer. I did love deepwood sniper back in the day. Maybe i'll check stuff that can inadvertantly help out archery.