Archivist and Bonus Spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archivist and Bonus Spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bruize
02-14-08, 04:57 PM Looking through the Archivist entry in Heroes of Horror, I noticed somethng dreadful. Even though the class can cast spells if they have a high enough Int score and even additional starting spells in their book based on Int, they recieve bonus spells per day based on Wis? The hell? Is this a typo or is my Archivist with a 5 wisdom screwed?

To be honest, I missed the part about bonus spells in the entry, assuming it was like every other int based caster. Is there an errata, even an unofficial one that addresses the class?

If not, should the Wis based bonus spells be swapped out at the DM's discretion?

The character is pretty interesting as is from a roleplay perspective. Currently, losing the bonus spells just means a single 2nd and 3rd lvl spell slot and 2 1st lvl spell slots. But still, it's kinda nice to have those handy.
JaronK
02-14-08, 05:20 PM Looking through the Archivist entry in Heroes of Horror, I noticed somethng dreadful. Even though the class can cast spells if they have a high enough Int score and even additional starting spells in their book based on Int, they recieve bonus spells per day based on Wis? The hell? Is this a typo or is my Archivist with a 5 wisdom screwed?

Look again. Then look at the Wizard. Notice the base number of spells per day of a Wizard, and the base number of spells per day of an Archivist.

Notice anything interesting?

To be honest, I missed the part about bonus spells in the entry, assuming it was like every other int based caster. Is there an errata, even an unofficial one that addresses the class?

They're like Favored Souls... dual stat casters. That said, they need Wis FAR less than Favoured Souls need Charisma.

Archivists are easily in the Big 5 for most powerful classes. The Wis based bonus spells thing is a VERY slight nerf (especially considering their spells per day) to an otherwise godly class.

I say "godly" in the very literal sense.

JaronK
RobbyPants
02-15-08, 08:39 AM I found the same thing a while ago, which was disapointing because I have a warforged (penalty to Wis) fighter/archivist gestalt. Still, I agree with JaronK. It's not that big of a deal. Compared to a wizard, they get one more spell per day at each level (I've always assumed this was to match the number of spells a cleric gets, counting their domain spell). Given the three attributes for spells modified by a casting stat (DC, highest level cast, and bonus spells), I'd say the bonus spells are the least important.
Evil DM Mk3
02-15-08, 08:50 AM Don't forget the level of silly buggers you can play by getting your hands on druid scrolls.
Cartigan
02-15-08, 09:49 AM Looking through the Archivist entry in Heroes of Horror, I noticed somethng dreadful. Even though the class can cast spells if they have a high enough Int score and even additional starting spells in their book based on Int, they recieve bonus spells per day based on Wis? The hell? Is this a typo or is my Archivist with a 5 wisdom screwed?
Since you don't get negative spells, it isn't that big of an issue (and since the "bonus spell" system isn't exactly massively advantageous since you only get +1 spell per each level based on ability score). Now, if it was what decided the spell DC (like for the Favored Soul - man the Favored Soul defines MAD), it would be a problem.

Ironically, this is the only class I can think of that has bonus spells decided by a different stat than their casting stat but doesn't need any of the scores the Illumians can use to base bonus spells off of.

Is there an errata, even an unofficial one that addresses the class?
If you had read the Archivist flavor text, you would have realized it was meant to be like that.

That said, they need Wis FAR less than Favoured Souls need Charisma.
You must mean "FAR less than Favoured Souls need Wisdom" because Favored Souls are full casters with Charisma as their casting stat.
LoneFlame
02-15-08, 01:15 PM Don't forget the level of silly buggers you can play by getting your hands on druid scrolls.
Combine that with Shugenja(Complete Divine) spells & you're set. Between Cleric, Druid, & Shugenja spells, you're looking at a great spell-list. I've used a similar methodology with Chameleon's Divine Aptitude(only with that, I add in the Paladins, Ranger, & Divine Bard spells as I see fit).
JaronK
02-15-08, 02:59 PM Combine that with Shugenja(Complete Divine) spells & you're set. Between Cleric, Druid, & Shugenja spells, you're looking at a great spell-list. I've used a similar methodology with Chameleon's Divine Aptitude(only with that, I add in the Paladins, Ranger, & Divine Bard spells as I see fit).

Actually, the most awesome spells are Domain spells, Adept Spells, Ranger spells, and Paladin spells usually. The former because they pretty much get all the best arcane spells that way, and the latter three because they get spells that are really strong for their level (which is fine for those classes, because they get those spell levels late, but for an Archivist it's golden).

Also, BoED has a bunch of divine spell lists, and the Divine Bard in Unearthed Arcana opens up the Bard list. And don't forget the Complete... what is it, Mage... varient for the Cleric and Favored Soul that gives them Wizard spells as divine spells...

Yeah, Archivists are awesomely powerful, and do NOT need the power bump of getting even more spells.

JaronK
danielinthewolvesden
02-15-08, 09:19 PM Archivists are easily in the Big 5 for most powerful classes. The Wis based bonus spells thing is a VERY slight nerf (especially considering their spells per day) to an otherwise godly class.

I say "godly" in the very literal sense.

Archivists give up Turning, Domains, heavy armour (who cares), and the ability to know every freaken Cleric spell in the universe in exchange for getting the abilty to scribe other classes divine spells into their spellbook*. This can be quite powerful depending on a few assumptions:

1. Your DM is at least moderately generous when it comes to wealth so you can buy all those scrolls AND whatever magic items you need.
2. Your DM has magic shoppes that sell anything given you have enuf GPs to pay for it.
3. Your DM allows extremely strained & perhaps munchkin rules interpretations that make other classes spell lists into Divine spell lists, the most common being some very strained interpretations of a couple of dead 3.0 PrCs, and also a optional class in UA.

4. And, it's a high level campaign.

5. Having higher than average ability scores is a nice +.

Assumptions 1 & 2, which are fairly reasonable and in my experience occur in maybe 1/4 the games out there, will make the Archivist almost as powerful as the Cleric. Remember, the Cleric gets Turning, which can mean DMM, and the Cleric knows EVERY spell on the cleric list, while the Archivist gains TWO spell per level.

Where the assumption fails is in #3. Unless your DM is playing an "everything goes campaign" where you'll be sitting between Pun-Pun and a Planar SHepard, in which case your much-vaunted powers pale. Or unless you are taking advantages of your DM's ignorance of the rules, in which case- shame on you.

I have actually played a Archivist, and in that campaign (slightly lower than average loot and not unlitmed magik shoppes), my Archivist was outdone by the straight cleric. That was only levels 3-7, mind you. But the cleric gets more powerful at higher levels too.

Yes, in many polls the Archivist ranks high- but nearly always with the caveat "depending on DM". This is true more than any other class I know.

*Dark Knowledge being not quite equal to a Domain, depending on campaign.
JaronK
02-15-08, 10:22 PM Archivists give up Turning, Domains, heavy armour (who cares), and the ability to know every freaken Cleric spell in the universe in exchange for getting the abilty to scribe other classes divine spells into their spellbook*. This can be quite powerful depending on a few assumptions:

Turning is easy to get... Sacred Exorcist 1 gives you enough for Divine Metamagic.

1. Your DM is at least moderately generous when it comes to wealth so you can buy all those scrolls AND whatever magic items you need.

Or you have a Warlock cohort. But this is the same issue as Wizards.

2. Your DM has magic shoppes that sell anything given you have enuf GPs to pay for it.

Again, a 12th level Warlock cohort solves this entirely, as he can make any scroll you want, so long as the spell exists.

3. Your DM allows extremely strained & perhaps munchkin rules interpretations that make other classes spell lists into Divine spell lists, the most common being some very strained interpretations of a couple of dead 3.0 PrCs, and also a optional class in UA.

Or your DM follows the commentary by the designers that says Archivists should absolutely get strange spells from oddball sources (it's in their comentary about Domain Spells and Archivists). But hey, the Designers and such are just munchkins with strained interpretations of the rules, right? And Clerics (Domains and the Complete Mage varient) and Favoured Souls (Complete Champion varient) are dead 3.0 PrCs and options UA classes, right?

4. And, it's a high level campaign.

True, you need to have a level 12 Warlock buddy to have full access.

5. Having higher than average ability scores is a nice +.

Not really needed, you're basically the same as a Wizard with a moderate use for Wisdom. After all, you get one extra spell per day, which is equivalent to a whole lot of bonus spells.

Remember, the Cleric gets Turning, which can mean DMM, and the Cleric knows EVERY spell on the cleric list, while the Archivist gains TWO spell per level.

The first is hardly an issue when a one level dip into a casting PrC that's easy for Archivists to enter completely solves the problem. The second requires work to deal with.

Where the assumption fails is in #3. Unless your DM is playing an "everything goes campaign" where you'll be sitting between Pun-Pun and a Planar SHepard, in which case your much-vaunted powers pale. Or unless you are taking advantages of your DM's ignorance of the rules, in which case- shame on you.

Or you have a Warlock. I'd agree with your points if it wasn't so easy for an Archivist to get those hard to find spells, but the truth is, a Warlock just gets them for you. You can get one as a Cohort, or maybe a party mate, or just find one somewhere and hire him to make scrolls for you (the last is more expensive, but Leadership isn't always allowed and sometimes no one in the party wants to play a Warlock). Yay for the level 12 Warlock ability, eh?

JaronK
danielinthewolvesden
02-16-08, 02:00 AM Turning is easy to get... Sacred Exorcist 1 gives you enough for Divine Metamagic.

Or you have a Warlock cohort.

Again, a 12th level Warlock cohort solves this entirely, as he can make any scroll you want, so long as the spell exists.

Or your DM follows the commentary by the designers that says Archivists should absolutely get strange spells from oddball sources (it's in their comentary about Domain Spells and Archivists). But hey, the Designers and such are just munchkins with strained interpretations of the rules, right? And Clerics (Domains and the Complete Mage varient) and Favoured Souls (Complete Champion varient) are dead 3.0 PrCs and options UA classes, right?

Not really needed, you're basically the same as a Wizard with a moderate use for Wisdom. After all, you get one extra spell per day, which is equivalent to a whole lot of bonus spells.

Then that's multiclassing, and we are no longer talking Archivist. You can get ANYTHING by multiclassing. For example, Ftr1/Dr19 is a VERY powerful "fighter build".:rolleyes: Hey,I have seen CO biulds with several classes & PrC's that beat the heck out of any single class, you have even said so yourself.

You still have to pay for the scrolls (1/2 price), and your cohort loses EPS.

You got a cite for that? But anyway, having a 12th level Warlock cohort requires you be 13+ level.

Strange spells from oddball sources is fine. But hardly other editions. Got a cite which suggests that you can get spells from 3.0? Nice strawman. UA is entirely optional, nothing wrong with Divine Bard, but once you bring in UA, you also open the door to Gestalt. Once you have Gestalt, you can build a MUCH better spellcaster.

Clerics and FS are both 3.5 classes.

But, if your DM does allow "anything goes" then Pun-Pun and the Planar Shepard are in too, right? Legal by stretching the RAW, right? You can beat the Archivist all hollw by Pun-Pun, Planar Shepard and various multiclass builds.

A good WIS can get you two bonus spells per level, which is a lot.
JaronK
02-16-08, 07:22 AM Then that's multiclassing, and we are no longer talking Archivist. You can get ANYTHING by multiclassing. For example, Ftr1/Dr19 is a VERY powerful "fighter build".:rolleyes: Hey,I have seen CO biulds with several classes & PrC's that beat the heck out of any single class, you have even said so yourself.

A single level of Fighter with 19 levels of Druid is a Druid build. A single level of Sacred Exorcist, a class which advances Archivist casting, in a build with Archivist 19 is still an Archivist build.

You got a cite for that? But anyway, having a 12th level Warlock cohort requires you be 13+ level.

A cite for what? That Warlocks can make any scroll so long as they have scribe scroll? Read their level 12 class ability, it's spelled out in black and white.

Strange spells from oddball sources is fine. But hardly other editions. Got a cite which suggests that you can get spells from 3.0? Nice strawman. UA is entirely optional, nothing wrong with Divine Bard, but once you bring in UA, you also open the door to Gestalt. Once you have Gestalt, you can build a MUCH better spellcaster.

Yes, that is a strawman from you. When did I say you'd get 3.0 spells? I did mention one 3.0 class (which was never updated, and thus is 3.5 legal) as one of many possible methods of getting Wizard/Sorcerer spells. Almost any spell you'd want from the Wizard/Sorcerer list can also be found via a 3.5 source that does not involve UA (you only need UA for Bard only spells, which are quite rare). Seriously, try to name one good Wizard/Sorcerer spell that isn't also a divine spell from some 3.5 source (mostly, Complete Champion and Complete Mage will get that for you, if it's not already in core via Domains).

And seriously, are you actually claiming that allowing varient classes, which are intended to be played along with the regular classes, is the same as allowing Gestalt, which is explictly not? One is a varient class, the other is a varient that changes the basic rule structure.

But, if your DM does allow "anything goes" then Pun-Pun and the Planar Shepard are in too, right? Legal by stretching the RAW, right? You can beat the Archivist all hollw by Pun-Pun, Planar Shepard and various multiclass builds.

So... strawman, much? If the DM lets you gain scrolls via a Warlock, than that DM must also allow Pun Pun? What kind of arguement is that? You think an Archivist who has a Warlock buddy is totally the same as Pun Pun? Can you really not see the difference there? Do you think that any DM that lets you use the standard level 12 Warlock ability must also by necessity be using an "anything goes" play style? You really believe that?

A good WIS can get you two bonus spells per level, which is a lot.

With an Archivist, you get one free bonus spell per level (since you have one more than Wizards), so while they can use Wis, they don't need it.

JaronK
Malchius
02-16-08, 07:30 AM If you really wanted to stretch the rules, an Archivist could get every arcane spell if he knew a very generous Geomancer, or if the Warlock can emulate their class ability for sake of Scribing. But that seems Cheesalicious.
ksbsnowowl
02-16-08, 11:27 AM If you really wanted to stretch the rules, an Archivist could get every arcane spell if he knew a very generous Geomancer, or if the Warlock can emulate their class ability for sake of Scribing.It doesn't even take that.

Using the Archivist class, and nothing else but the core rules, the archivist can get every single sorcerer/wizards spell as a divine spell.

How, you might ask? Read the rules on magic item creation, specifically on scroll creation. The "Crafter" is the one expending the XP and who has the appropriate craft feat. Our divine Archivist fulfills this role. Any other requirement of an item's creation, such as the spells to be cast in the making of an item or scroll, can be supplied by any other character. For scrolls, the divine/arcane nature of the scroll is determined by the crafter (the one expending the XP).

Thus, a wizard and a cleric (who doesn't have Scribe Scroll) could collaborate to make a scroll of Cure Light Wounds. Because the crafter (the wizard) is arcane, it would be an arcane scroll of CLW. This item would require a Use Magic Device roll to be activated by anyone but a Bard. The same could be done with Miracle, though it could only ever be activated through a UMD check, as it is an arcane scroll of miracle, and to my knowledge, no arcane casters have Miracle on their spell lists.

So, there is our method for getting any wizard spell as a divine scroll. Now note that an Archivist can scribe any spell on a divine scroll.
JaronK
02-16-08, 04:29 PM So, there is our method for getting any wizard spell as a divine scroll. Now note that an Archivist can scribe any spell on a divine scroll.

That method is a bit cheesier, so I try to avoid that one.

But yeah, by RAW, it's legal, though one could argue that the Wizard is not supplying a valid spell for scribing (because the Archivist can only scribe divine spells).

JaronK
Cartigan
02-16-08, 05:30 PM I have an idea, this isn't about Archivists being broken. Take that to CharOp.
JaronK
02-16-08, 05:41 PM I have an idea, this isn't about Archivists being broken. Take that to CharOp.

And here I thought this was the Class discussion board. Certainly, there's no threads about class power going on right now on this board, right?

This isn't about optimizing an Archivist. The OP was asking about Archivists being weak, and he got responses stating otherwise, which is quite valid for a class discussion board.. Hopefully we won't have too many people this time trying to demonstrate how they totally can't get random divine spells, or how it's cheesy and against the designer's intent for them to get weird and wacky spells from strange sources.

JaronK
Lawkeeper
02-18-08, 09:25 AM Playing an Archivist is mostly done with the explicit purpose of getting a lot of miscellaneous spells, including druid, 'wizard' or any other class spells. If a DM is not ready to let an archivist get a bunch of those spells, I'd say he'd better simply rule the class off. And tell it beforehand.

The same way that he should tell the wizard player that he intends not to let him get more spells than the 2 free spells per level. Wizards and archivists are meant to learn many spells - it's unfair from the DM not to let them do, especially if at the same time he lets druids and clerics get access to an infinity of spells from various splatbooks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bruize 02-14-08, 04:57 PM	Looking through the Archivist entry in Heroes of Horror, I noticed somethng dreadful. Even though the class can cast spells if they have a high enough Int score and even additional starting spells in their book based on Int, they recieve bonus spells per day based on Wis? The hell? Is this a typo or is my Archivist with a 5 wisdom screwed? To be honest, I missed the part about bonus spells in the entry, assuming it was like every other int based caster. Is there an errata, even an unofficial one that addresses the class? If not, should the Wis based bonus spells be swapped out at the DM's discretion? The character is pretty interesting as is from a roleplay perspective. Currently, losing the bonus spells just means a single 2nd and 3rd lvl spell slot and 2 1st lvl spell slots. But still, it's kinda nice to have those handy.
JaronK 02-14-08, 05:20 PM	Looking through the Archivist entry in Heroes of Horror, I noticed somethng dreadful. Even though the class can cast spells if they have a high enough Int score and even additional starting spells in their book based on Int, they recieve bonus spells per day based on Wis? The hell? Is this a typo or is my Archivist with a 5 wisdom screwed? Look again. Then look at the Wizard. Notice the base number of spells per day of a Wizard, and the base number of spells per day of an Archivist. Notice anything interesting? To be honest, I missed the part about bonus spells in the entry, assuming it was like every other int based caster. Is there an errata, even an unofficial one that addresses the class? They're like Favored Souls... dual stat casters. That said, they need Wis FAR less than Favoured Souls need Charisma. Archivists are easily in the Big 5 for most powerful classes. The Wis based bonus spells thing is a VERY slight nerf (especially considering their spells per day) to an otherwise godly class. I say "godly" in the very literal sense. JaronK
RobbyPants 02-15-08, 08:39 AM	I found the same thing a while ago, which was disapointing because I have a warforged (penalty to Wis) fighter/archivist gestalt. Still, I agree with JaronK. It's not that big of a deal. Compared to a wizard, they get one more spell per day at each level (I've always assumed this was to match the number of spells a cleric gets, counting their domain spell). Given the three attributes for spells modified by a casting stat (DC, highest level cast, and bonus spells), I'd say the bonus spells are the least important.
Evil DM Mk3 02-15-08, 08:50 AM	Don't forget the level of silly buggers you can play by getting your hands on druid scrolls.
Cartigan 02-15-08, 09:49 AM	Looking through the Archivist entry in Heroes of Horror, I noticed somethng dreadful. Even though the class can cast spells if they have a high enough Int score and even additional starting spells in their book based on Int, they recieve bonus spells per day based on Wis? The hell? Is this a typo or is my Archivist with a 5 wisdom screwed? Since you don't get negative spells, it isn't that big of an issue (and since the "bonus spell" system isn't exactly massively advantageous since you only get +1 spell per each level based on ability score). Now, if it was what decided the spell DC (like for the Favored Soul - man the Favored Soul defines MAD), it would be a problem. Ironically, this is the only class I can think of that has bonus spells decided by a different stat than their casting stat but doesn't need any of the scores the Illumians can use to base bonus spells off of. Is there an errata, even an unofficial one that addresses the class? If you had read the Archivist flavor text, you would have realized it was meant to be like that. That said, they need Wis FAR less than Favoured Souls need Charisma. You must mean "FAR less than Favoured Souls need Wisdom" because Favored Souls are full casters with Charisma as their casting stat.
LoneFlame 02-15-08, 01:15 PM	Don't forget the level of silly buggers you can play by getting your hands on druid scrolls. Combine that with Shugenja(Complete Divine) spells & you're set. Between Cleric, Druid, & Shugenja spells, you're looking at a great spell-list. I've used a similar methodology with Chameleon's Divine Aptitude(only with that, I add in the Paladins, Ranger, & Divine Bard spells as I see fit).
JaronK 02-15-08, 02:59 PM	Combine that with Shugenja(Complete Divine) spells & you're set. Between Cleric, Druid, & Shugenja spells, you're looking at a great spell-list. I've used a similar methodology with Chameleon's Divine Aptitude(only with that, I add in the Paladins, Ranger, & Divine Bard spells as I see fit). Actually, the most awesome spells are Domain spells, Adept Spells, Ranger spells, and Paladin spells usually. The former because they pretty much get all the best arcane spells that way, and the latter three because they get spells that are really strong for their level (which is fine for those classes, because they get those spell levels late, but for an Archivist it's golden). Also, BoED has a bunch of divine spell lists, and the Divine Bard in Unearthed Arcana opens up the Bard list. And don't forget the Complete... what is it, Mage... varient for the Cleric and Favored Soul that gives them Wizard spells as divine spells... Yeah, Archivists are awesomely powerful, and do NOT need the power bump of getting even more spells. JaronK
danielinthewolvesden 02-15-08, 09:19 PM	Archivists are easily in the Big 5 for most powerful classes. The Wis based bonus spells thing is a VERY slight nerf (especially considering their spells per day) to an otherwise godly class. I say "godly" in the very literal sense. Archivists give up Turning, Domains, heavy armour (who cares), and the ability to know every freaken Cleric spell in the universe in exchange for getting the abilty to scribe other classes divine spells into their spellbook. This can be quite powerful depending on a few assumptions: 1. Your DM is at least moderately generous when it comes to wealth so you can buy all those scrolls AND whatever magic items you need. 2. Your DM has magic shoppes that sell anything given you have enuf GPs to pay for it. 3. Your DM allows extremely strained & perhaps munchkin rules interpretations that make other classes spell lists into Divine spell lists, the most common being some very strained interpretations of a couple of dead 3.0 PrCs, and also a optional class in UA. 4. And, it's a high level campaign. 5. Having higher than average ability scores is a nice +. Assumptions 1 & 2, which are fairly reasonable and in my experience occur in maybe 1/4 the games out there, will make the Archivist almost as powerful as the Cleric. Remember, the Cleric gets Turning, which can mean DMM, and the Cleric knows EVERY spell on the cleric list, while the Archivist gains TWO spell per level. Where the assumption fails is in #3. Unless your DM is playing an "everything goes campaign" where you'll be sitting between Pun-Pun and a Planar SHepard, in which case your much-vaunted powers pale. Or unless you are taking advantages of your DM's ignorance of the rules, in which case- shame on you. I have actually played a Archivist, and in that campaign (slightly lower than average loot and not unlitmed magik shoppes), my Archivist was outdone by the straight cleric. That was only levels 3-7, mind you. But the cleric gets more powerful at higher levels too. Yes, in many polls the Archivist ranks high- but nearly always with the caveat "depending on DM". This is true more than any other class I know. Dark Knowledge being not quite equal to a Domain, depending on campaign.
JaronK 02-15-08, 10:22 PM	Archivists give up Turning, Domains, heavy armour (who cares), and the ability to know every freaken Cleric spell in the universe in exchange for getting the abilty to scribe other classes divine spells into their spellbook*. This can be quite powerful depending on a few assumptions: Turning is easy to get... Sacred Exorcist 1 gives you enough for Divine Metamagic. 1. Your DM is at least moderately generous when it comes to wealth so you can buy all those scrolls AND whatever magic items you need. Or you have a Warlock cohort. But this is the same issue as Wizards. 2. Your DM has magic shoppes that sell anything given you have enuf GPs to pay for it. Again, a 12th level Warlock cohort solves this entirely, as he can make any scroll you want, so long as the spell exists. 3. Your DM allows extremely strained & perhaps munchkin rules interpretations that make other classes spell lists into Divine spell lists, the most common being some very strained interpretations of a couple of dead 3.0 PrCs, and also a optional class in UA. Or your DM follows the commentary by the designers that says Archivists should absolutely get strange spells from oddball sources (it's in their comentary about Domain Spells and Archivists). But hey, the Designers and such are just munchkins with strained interpretations of the rules, right? And Clerics (Domains and the Complete Mage varient) and Favoured Souls (Complete Champion varient) are dead 3.0 PrCs and options UA classes, right? 4. And, it's a high level campaign. True, you need to have a level 12 Warlock buddy to have full access. 5. Having higher than average ability scores is a nice +. Not really needed, you're basically the same as a Wizard with a moderate use for Wisdom. After all, you get one extra spell per day, which is equivalent to a whole lot of bonus spells. Remember, the Cleric gets Turning, which can mean DMM, and the Cleric knows EVERY spell on the cleric list, while the Archivist gains TWO spell per level. The first is hardly an issue when a one level dip into a casting PrC that's easy for Archivists to enter completely solves the problem. The second requires work to deal with. Where the assumption fails is in #3. Unless your DM is playing an "everything goes campaign" where you'll be sitting between Pun-Pun and a Planar SHepard, in which case your much-vaunted powers pale. Or unless you are taking advantages of your DM's ignorance of the rules, in which case- shame on you. Or you have a Warlock. I'd agree with your points if it wasn't so easy for an Archivist to get those hard to find spells, but the truth is, a Warlock just gets them for you. You can get one as a Cohort, or maybe a party mate, or just find one somewhere and hire him to make scrolls for you (the last is more expensive, but Leadership isn't always allowed and sometimes no one in the party wants to play a Warlock). Yay for the level 12 Warlock ability, eh? JaronK
danielinthewolvesden 02-16-08, 02:00 AM	Turning is easy to get... Sacred Exorcist 1 gives you enough for Divine Metamagic. Or you have a Warlock cohort. Again, a 12th level Warlock cohort solves this entirely, as he can make any scroll you want, so long as the spell exists. Or your DM follows the commentary by the designers that says Archivists should absolutely get strange spells from oddball sources (it's in their comentary about Domain Spells and Archivists). But hey, the Designers and such are just munchkins with strained interpretations of the rules, right? And Clerics (Domains and the Complete Mage varient) and Favoured Souls (Complete Champion varient) are dead 3.0 PrCs and options UA classes, right? Not really needed, you're basically the same as a Wizard with a moderate use for Wisdom. After all, you get one extra spell per day, which is equivalent to a whole lot of bonus spells. Then that's multiclassing, and we are no longer talking Archivist. You can get ANYTHING by multiclassing. For example, Ftr1/Dr19 is a VERY powerful "fighter build".:rolleyes: Hey,I have seen CO biulds with several classes & PrC's that beat the heck out of any single class, you have even said so yourself. You still have to pay for the scrolls (1/2 price), and your cohort loses EPS. You got a cite for that? But anyway, having a 12th level Warlock cohort requires you be 13+ level. Strange spells from oddball sources is fine. But hardly other editions. Got a cite which suggests that you can get spells from 3.0? Nice strawman. UA is entirely optional, nothing wrong with Divine Bard, but once you bring in UA, you also open the door to Gestalt. Once you have Gestalt, you can build a MUCH better spellcaster. Clerics and FS are both 3.5 classes. But, if your DM does allow "anything goes" then Pun-Pun and the Planar Shepard are in too, right? Legal by stretching the RAW, right? You can beat the Archivist all hollw by Pun-Pun, Planar Shepard and various multiclass builds. A good WIS can get you two bonus spells per level, which is a lot.
JaronK 02-16-08, 07:22 AM	Then that's multiclassing, and we are no longer talking Archivist. You can get ANYTHING by multiclassing. For example, Ftr1/Dr19 is a VERY powerful "fighter build".:rolleyes: Hey,I have seen CO biulds with several classes & PrC's that beat the heck out of any single class, you have even said so yourself. A single level of Fighter with 19 levels of Druid is a Druid build. A single level of Sacred Exorcist, a class which advances Archivist casting, in a build with Archivist 19 is still an Archivist build. You got a cite for that? But anyway, having a 12th level Warlock cohort requires you be 13+ level. A cite for what? That Warlocks can make any scroll so long as they have scribe scroll? Read their level 12 class ability, it's spelled out in black and white. Strange spells from oddball sources is fine. But hardly other editions. Got a cite which suggests that you can get spells from 3.0? Nice strawman. UA is entirely optional, nothing wrong with Divine Bard, but once you bring in UA, you also open the door to Gestalt. Once you have Gestalt, you can build a MUCH better spellcaster. Yes, that is a strawman from you. When did I say you'd get 3.0 spells? I did mention one 3.0 class (which was never updated, and thus is 3.5 legal) as one of many possible methods of getting Wizard/Sorcerer spells. Almost any spell you'd want from the Wizard/Sorcerer list can also be found via a 3.5 source that does not involve UA (you only need UA for Bard only spells, which are quite rare). Seriously, try to name one good Wizard/Sorcerer spell that isn't also a divine spell from some 3.5 source (mostly, Complete Champion and Complete Mage will get that for you, if it's not already in core via Domains). And seriously, are you actually claiming that allowing varient classes, which are intended to be played along with the regular classes, is the same as allowing Gestalt, which is explictly not? One is a varient class, the other is a varient that changes the basic rule structure. But, if your DM does allow "anything goes" then Pun-Pun and the Planar Shepard are in too, right? Legal by stretching the RAW, right? You can beat the Archivist all hollw by Pun-Pun, Planar Shepard and various multiclass builds. So... strawman, much? If the DM lets you gain scrolls via a Warlock, than that DM must also allow Pun Pun? What kind of arguement is that? You think an Archivist who has a Warlock buddy is totally the same as Pun Pun? Can you really not see the difference there? Do you think that any DM that lets you use the standard level 12 Warlock ability must also by necessity be using an "anything goes" play style? You really believe that? A good WIS can get you two bonus spells per level, which is a lot. With an Archivist, you get one free bonus spell per level (since you have one more than Wizards), so while they can use Wis, they don't need it. JaronK
Malchius 02-16-08, 07:30 AM	If you really wanted to stretch the rules, an Archivist could get every arcane spell if he knew a very generous Geomancer, or if the Warlock can emulate their class ability for sake of Scribing. But that seems Cheesalicious.
ksbsnowowl 02-16-08, 11:27 AM	If you really wanted to stretch the rules, an Archivist could get every arcane spell if he knew a very generous Geomancer, or if the Warlock can emulate their class ability for sake of Scribing.It doesn't even take that. Using the Archivist class, and nothing else but the core rules, the archivist can get every single sorcerer/wizards spell as a divine spell. How, you might ask? Read the rules on magic item creation, specifically on scroll creation. The "Crafter" is the one expending the XP and who has the appropriate craft feat. Our divine Archivist fulfills this role. Any other requirement of an item's creation, such as the spells to be cast in the making of an item or scroll, can be supplied by any other character. For scrolls, the divine/arcane nature of the scroll is determined by the crafter (the one expending the XP). Thus, a wizard and a cleric (who doesn't have Scribe Scroll) could collaborate to make a scroll of Cure Light Wounds. Because the crafter (the wizard) is arcane, it would be an arcane scroll of CLW. This item would require a Use Magic Device roll to be activated by anyone but a Bard. The same could be done with Miracle, though it could only ever be activated through a UMD check, as it is an arcane scroll of miracle, and to my knowledge, no arcane casters have Miracle on their spell lists. So, there is our method for getting any wizard spell as a divine scroll. Now note that an Archivist can scribe any spell on a divine scroll.
JaronK 02-16-08, 04:29 PM	So, there is our method for getting any wizard spell as a divine scroll. Now note that an Archivist can scribe any spell on a divine scroll. That method is a bit cheesier, so I try to avoid that one. But yeah, by RAW, it's legal, though one could argue that the Wizard is not supplying a valid spell for scribing (because the Archivist can only scribe divine spells). JaronK
Cartigan 02-16-08, 05:30 PM	I have an idea, this isn't about Archivists being broken. Take that to CharOp.
JaronK 02-16-08, 05:41 PM	I have an idea, this isn't about Archivists being broken. Take that to CharOp. And here I thought this was the Class discussion board. Certainly, there's no threads about class power going on right now on this board, right? This isn't about optimizing an Archivist. The OP was asking about Archivists being weak, and he got responses stating otherwise, which is quite valid for a class discussion board.. Hopefully we won't have too many people this time trying to demonstrate how they totally can't get random divine spells, or how it's cheesy and against the designer's intent for them to get weird and wacky spells from strange sources. JaronK
Lawkeeper 02-18-08, 09:25 AM	Playing an Archivist is mostly done with the explicit purpose of getting a lot of miscellaneous spells, including druid, 'wizard' or any other class spells. If a DM is not ready to let an archivist get a bunch of those spells, I'd say he'd better simply rule the class off. And tell it beforehand. The same way that he should tell the wizard player that he intends not to let him get more spells than the 2 free spells per level. Wizards and archivists are meant to learn many spells - it's unfair from the DM not to let them do, especially if at the same time he lets druids and clerics get access to an infinity of spells from various splatbooks.