Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deep Blue 9000 06-05-06, 10:43 PM	I'm wondering how the Archivist's bility to learn any divine spell interacts with domain spells. For example, would an Archivist be able to learn Acid Fog (Sor/Wiz 6 Water 7) as a 7th level divine spell? It seems to me that he would. Not only that but he'd be able to cast it many times, unlike clerics and their domain spells. Is this interpretation correct? If so, it seems very. . . powerful.
Thomas_Covenant 06-05-06, 10:50 PM	Yes, but he needs to find a scroll first. Not an arcane Acid Fog scroll, a Divine Acid Fog scroll. Which can only be made or read by someone with the appropriate domain. You won't see them on treasure tables, because they're ***** RARE. Basically, you'll be tracking down a lot of divine casters, and talking them into "helping" you make scrolls which you can then scribe, for the most part. Note: This is NOT cheap, but is worth it. With enough time, effort, and DM cooperation, its far more powerful than it looks. The Druid, Adept (Polymorph? Lightning Bolt?), Ranger, Blackguard, Paladin, and others are all fair game. Assuming, of course, you can find the right people, and get them to like you well enough...... Without time, effort, AND DM cooperation, you're basically an excessively watered down cleric, with less hps, ac, no turning, no domains, and a tiny fraction of the spells known. YMMV. (Your Mileage May Vary)
JulesCARV 06-05-06, 11:51 PM	Two tempting possibilities for making scroll access easier (whether through leadership, fellow PCs, or ordinary NPC contacts) are a level 12+ warlock and an artificer. From the hearsay I've heard around here, an artificer who scribes scrolls isn't sufficient (i.e., an artificer can't scribe a divine scroll of acid cloud: rather, his scrolls are neither arcane nor divine, so neither a wizard nor an archivist can put them in their spell/prayerbooks.). However, a warlock actually scribes bonafide divine (or arcane) scrolls when using Imbue Item. How the logic of that works, I have no idea. In fact, I'm not even sure about that from a rules perspective: I've just heard it. If you use Unearthed Arcana, every bard spell is also a divine spell, since divine bards exist.
Squirrelloid 06-06-06, 01:52 AM	Two tempting possibilities for making scroll access easier (whether through leadership, fellow PCs, or ordinary NPC contacts) are a level 12+ warlock and an artificer. From the hearsay I've heard around here, an artificer who scribes scrolls isn't sufficient (i.e., an artificer can't scribe a divine scroll of acid cloud: rather, his scrolls are neither arcane nor divine, so neither a wizard nor an archivist can put them in their spell/prayerbooks.). However, a warlock actually scribes bonafide divine (or arcane) scrolls when using Imbue Item. How the logic of that works, I have no idea. In fact, I'm not even sure about that from a rules perspective: I've just heard it. If you use Unearthed Arcana, every bard spell is also a divine spell, since divine bards exist. The warlock can do it. For any spell imaginable. (Note that the divineness or arcaneness of a spell is defined by what it is cast as, which the warlock can set arbitrarily when he scribes the spell - if he scribes a spell that is only on an arcane list as divine, its just that no one will be able to read it - except an archivist. Divine/Arcane is not set by being on such a list, otherwise we wouldnt care who scribed the scroll in the first place; nor is any list or set of lists ever claimed to be the sum total of all arcane or divine spells. Eg, arcane/divine merely reflects a different way of understanding the energy, and some spells are beyond the understanding of particular classes (spell lists are the spells understandable from some background/philosophy/training regime)). So you want a divine fleshshiver? A warlock can do that. Arcane "Divine" Power? No one could use it except with a UMD check, but sure, he can do it. A careful read of the warlock makes it clear that he sets all the parameters of any item he crafts. Divine/Arcane, since he doesnt cast spells at all, is one of those parameters.
zae 06-06-06, 10:12 AM	"So you want a divine fleshshiver?" For the record, you can already get one of those. The scriber just needs to worship Loviatar (Best. Deity. EVER!) and have the Initiate feat.
runestar 06-06-06, 12:03 PM	Actually, you can create the scroll yourself, seeing as to how archivists get scribe scroll as a bonus feat(I daresay the designers gave it free with that very purpose in mind). You just need to "convince" the divine spellcaster to provide said spell for you, while you provide the materials for scribing said scroll. Expensive, yes, but easier than tracking down said caster who actually has the scribe scroll feat. ;)
Kresalak 06-06-06, 12:14 PM	The best part of the Archivist/Warlock combo? The flavor even goes together.
ksbsnowowl 06-06-06, 12:28 PM	Note that the divineness or arcaneness of a spell is defined by what it is cast as....Actually, when talking about the divineness or arcaneness of scrolls, it is determined by who is actually crafting the scroll. A wizard with scribe scroll who expends the XP and creates a scroll of Cure Light Wounds, while the spell itself was supplied by a cleric, produces an arcane scroll of CLW. It could then only be used by a bard, or someone else through Use Magic Device.
ksbsnowowl 06-06-06, 12:36 PM	From the hearsay I've heard around here, an artificer who scribes scrolls isn't sufficient (i.e., an artificer can't scribe a divine scroll of acid cloud: rather, his scrolls are neither arcane nor divine, so neither a wizard nor an archivist can put them in their spell/prayerbooks.).Correct. But what one could do, at double the normal expense for scribing most spells into his prayer book, is have the Artificer craft a (non-arcane/non-divine) scroll of any spell ever, and then the Arcivist would begin scribing a scroll of the same spell, and have the Artificer cast said spell from his scroll, thus providing the spell for the crafting. End result? One expended artificer scroll and one divine scroll of whatever spell you wanted. Note the rule from the 3.5 SRD:Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
Thomas_Covenant 06-06-06, 05:07 PM	Correct. But what one could do, at double the normal expense for scribing most spells into his prayer book, is have the Artificer craft a (non-arcane/non-divine) scroll of any spell ever, and then the Arcivist would begin scribing a scroll of the same spell, and have the Artificer cast said spell from his scroll, thus providing the spell for the crafting. End result? One expended artificer scroll and one divine scroll of whatever spell you wanted. I'm not quite sure that flies. Say an archivist and a sorcerer scribe a scroll of say, magic missile together. If the sorcerer provides the spell, and the archivist the feat, you get an arcane scroll of magic missile. The fact that its in a domain somewhere (Force, I think) doesn't make it a divine scroll. I don't see how they can get the option to make it divine, either. By the same process, what you describe above ends up with a non-arcane/ non-divine scroll at twice the cost. As far I can yet determine, a warlock can pull off the trick, but an artificer alone isn't helping an archivist that much. Edit: I need to read more carefully before posting.A wizard with scribe scroll who expends the XP and creates a scroll of Cure Light Wounds, while the spell itself was supplied by a cleric, produces an arcane scroll of CLW.Where are you getting this ruling? The rules for shared items creation aren't well written, but I can't find anything that implies that.
Deep Blue 9000 06-07-06, 01:32 AM	Wow, that's an awesome trick Warlocks have for making scrolls. Purely by coincidence, there's already a warlock in the party. He's about to be my new best friend :D Originally Posted by A wizard with scribe scroll who expends the XP and creates a scroll of Cure Light Wounds, while the spell itself was supplied by a cleric, produces an arcane scroll of CLW. Where are you getting this ruling? The rules for shared items creation aren't well written, but I can't find anything that implies that. Well, I think the idea is the person contributing the actual spell doesn't matter, only the scriber. From the SRD under scrolls: • The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
Thomas_Covenant 06-07-06, 09:39 AM	Hmm, first off, balance wise, the Feat possessor determining the arcane/divine status is sketchy at best. This lets an archivist copy whatever spells he wants out of the party wizard's book cheap. That is not likely to be allowed by any DM, RAW or not. Plus, it's not making a lot of sense. Granted, this is D&D, it rarely does. MAGIC ITEMS IV (SCROLLS, STAFFS, & WANDS) The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) MAGIC ITEM DESCRIPTIONS For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level). Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level. A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite. It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary. If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.Emphasis mine. Go figure. The RAW strongly supports your position. A literal reading states a wizard and cleric scribing a scroll together decide who is the creator, and it is based as divine or arcane on that. The counter argument is combined creation isn't clear, and the "creator" means different things in different places. Plus that "the type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class" can be taken to many different ways, so could get bogged down in arguments. Overall, though, it seems to be allowed. The Warlock is even more convincing, and doesn't require looking at multiple rules technicalities, always a plus.
ksbsnowowl 06-07-06, 01:03 PM	Hmm, first off, balance wise, the Feat possessor determining the arcane/divine status is sketchy at best. This lets an archivist copy whatever spells he wants out of the party wizard's book cheap. That is not likely to be allowed by any DM, RAW or not.This was discussed at length on the CO board back when the Archivist came out, and everyone fairly well agreed that even though a strict reading of the rules would allow the archivist to scribe any spell ever as a divine scroll, and thus add it to his prayer book, this interpretation was too rediculous. The concensus was that as long as a spell existed somewhere as a divine spell, then an archivist could scribe a divine scroll of a spell provided by the party wizard, and use the resultant divine scroll to scribe in his prayer book. After all, the divine scroll of Magic Missile crafted with the aid of the party wizard is no different from that created by a Nentyar Hunter (either alone, or in conjunction with an archivist or cleric). Certainly a DM could require an archivist to find someone who could actually cast Magic Missle as a divine spell (such as a Nentyar Hunter) to assist him in creating the required scroll. It would not be a wholly unreasonable house rule; but it is a house rule, and is not congruent with the fact that the two divine scrolls of Magic Missle described above are exactly the same. But again, if the DM deems that most of the PrC's that exist with their own divine spell lists do not exist in his world, then many of the "abusive" spells would not exist as divine spells, and thus restricts what an Archivist can get his hands on. This lets an archivist copy whatever spells he wants out of the party wizard's book cheap.Note that a wizard's spellbook is not a sacred divine tome or divine scroll. Thus, an Archivist cannot copy straight from a wizard's book, as another wizard could. They would need to go through "the pain" of making a divine scroll of the spell first. Theoretically an archivist could copy from the prayerbook of another archivist, however.
Rpgraccoon 06-07-06, 03:45 PM	I asked wizards customer service about this. Archivist Questions Can the archivist learn domain spells? If a divine spell is not found on the generic Cleric spell list, an Archivist can only add the spell to his book if he finds it on a scroll.
ksbsnowowl 06-07-06, 03:48 PM	If a divine spell is not found on the generic Cleric spell list, an Archivist can only add the spell to his book if he finds it on a scroll. And indeed, if he crafts a scroll of Anyspell (for example) with the aid of a cleric with the Spell Domain, he has a scroll of said spell.
Thomas_Covenant 06-07-06, 06:29 PM	This was discussed at length on the CO board back when the Archivist came out, and everyone fairly well agreed that even though a strict reading of the rules would allow the archivist to scribe any spell ever as a divine scroll, and thus add it to his prayer book, this interpretation was too rediculous.The CO board had a discussion at length AND came to a consensus? That doesn't sound like them...... ;) The concensus was that as long as a spell existed somewhere as a divine spell, then an archivist could scribe a divine scroll of a spell provided by the party wizard, and use the resultant divine scroll to scribe in his prayer book. After all, the divine scroll of Magic Missile crafted with the aid of the party wizard is no different from that created by a Nentyar Hunter (either alone, or in conjunction with an archivist or cleric).I just see house rules coming up in the vast majority of campaigns to limit this, but I can't argue with the RAW, its as clear as it ever really gets. And my bad, by "cheap" I meant not being required to quest/roleplay/hunt for divine spellcasters, I did realize he still paid prayer book scribe AND scroll costs per spell. Getting polymorph from the party wizard instead of a high-level adept at the same price is a great deal, for example. (Ever tried to find and befriend a 12th level adept? Not easy.)
ksbsnowowl 06-08-06, 10:43 AM	I did realize he still paid prayer book scribe AND scroll costs per spell. Actually, reread the Archivist's Prayer book entry. It says he must put in the time and make any roles (similar to a wizard), but does not say he must pay the 100 gp per page to scribe them in his book. Again, a reasonable house rule, but a house rule nonetheless.
Todd 06-08-06, 02:22 PM	Confirmed to be an oversight by Mouse on the EN boards. They are supposed to have the 100 GP per page cost.
ksbsnowowl 06-08-06, 02:47 PM	And although an oversight, the rules say they don't have to pay it. There is no errata. Again, a wholly reasonable house rule, but a house rule nonetheless.