Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crowclub 03-31-07, 07:19 PM	I've only recently gain access to Heroes of Horror and the Class Archivist. It looks fairly powerful as a full caster with Bard/Marshal like party boosts (based on various Knowledge checks), two good saves, a d6 hit die and medium armour proficiency. So a Divine caster(healer)~come~buffer~come~backup fighter type. However, either because not many people have the book or because it's flawed somehow it doesn't seem to get mentioned all that often. How do you rate the Archivist?
Einvaldurinn_mikli 03-31-07, 08:36 PM	It really depends on scroll access, if it is high it's easily up there with the big dogs(CoDzilla and the wizard) for power. If it's bad you are better off with a cleric.
Sachiel 03-31-07, 09:19 PM	I've been enjoying my archivist quite a bit. They're easilly compared to either clerics or wizards, as they're pretty much a combination of the two. Their hit die are in-between a wizard and a cleric's, and they have the base attack of a wizard. They can wear all the armor they want, but you'll have to take feats or another class to get heavy armor and shields. They don't get familiars or the ability to channel positive or negative energy (turn/rebuke), but they get a lot of other interesting class features that are pretty helpful, though only apply to one creature type per use (as opposed to bards). On the negative side, you're going to be spending almost all of your skill points in Knowlege skills. They're a bit less efficient in the ability dependance department, they are primarilly about intelligence, but they do use wisdom for bonus spells, it's not a big deal though as I find it nice to play a divine caster that uses something other than wisdom for a change. Now Archivists have to scribe their scrolls, which limits what they can memorize and makes a bit of a money sink, but they have access to ALL divine spells. That's freaking awesome. You can scribe druid, ranger, paladin, and blackguard spells. If you're using splatbooks, you can even scribe shugenja spells. And I'm not certain if you can, but it seems like you'd be able to scribe cleric domain spells as well. All that makes the archivist probably the most versatile spellcaster out there. I play mine as an Indiana Jones styled archeologist; multiclassed very slightly with rogue to get some dungeon saavy. It's pretty fun.
MikeN 03-31-07, 11:25 PM	I've only recently gain access to Heroes of Horror and the Class Archivist. It looks fairly powerful as a full caster with Bard/Marshal like party boosts (based on various Knowledge checks), two good saves, a d6 hit die and medium armour proficiency. So a Divine caster(healer)~come~buffer~come~backup fighter type. However, either because not many people have the book or because it's flawed somehow it doesn't seem to get mentioned all that often. How do you rate the Archivist? It's not as good as a cleric and not quite as good as a wizard, unless your DM lets you cherry-pick whatever divine spells you want from whatever sourcebook you want (remember, the only spells you get AUTOMATICALLY are those from a cleric list and you don't get access to every one of them like a cleric does) -- in which case it becomes approximately as good as a wizard...
crowclub 04-01-07, 05:05 AM	I was looking at joining a game with a 10th level Archivist. I guess I'd have to spend alot of my starting cash on cherry picked spells from non cleric Divine lists. Which would you recommend?
Khadmus 04-01-07, 07:07 AM	I hear Archivist/Wizard/Mystic Theurge is a good combination (no experience with the archivist...just heard it mentioned once.) Perhaps you could buy "discount" ranger/paladin spells at their lower levels.
Fabius Maximus 04-01-07, 08:50 AM	I was looking at joining a game with a 10th level Archivist. I guess I'd have to spend alot of my starting cash on cherry picked spells from non cleric Divine lists. Which would you recommend? You don't need many spells from other classes' spell lists. The cleric list usually does suffice, especially if you're using the Spell Compendium. The cleric list is a bit short on damage dealing spells, however. A few Druid spells will help. My Archivist uses Murderous Mist, for example. It gives my DM headaches. :D
crowclub 04-01-07, 02:51 PM	The campaign is FR so I've got this part list of possible spells to learn from scrolls... Nentyar Hunter 1st level: Magic Missile 2nd level: Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease 3rd level: Freedom of Movement, Ranger 1st level: Hunter’s Mercy (Bow true strike [auto crit]) Adept 1st level: 2nd level: Invisibility, Mirror Image, Scorching Ray, see Invisibility, 3rd level: Lightning Bolt 4th level: Stoneskin 5th level: Heal Druid 1st level: 2nd level: 3rd level: Call Lightning 4th level: Flamestrike, Ice Storm 5th level: Summon Nature's Ally V
periscope 04-01-07, 03:01 PM	I like the archivist myself, just gives off the forbidden knowledge vibe. What does murderous mist do exactly? Is it anything like Kelgores Grave mist?
JulesCARV 04-01-07, 03:17 PM	I like archivists. (Here's the Heroes of Horror excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) if you haven't seen it yet, anyone.) I played an archivist/shaper going for psychic theurge, except I never got to be a psychic theurge because the game fell apart when I was an archivist 3/shaper 2. They're nice if you want to play a cleric with a bit less holy man and a bit more nerd.
Fabius Maximus 04-01-07, 05:35 PM	I like the archivist myself, just gives off the forbidden knowledge vibe. What does murderous mist do exactly? Is it anything like Kelgores Grave mist? Murderous Mist is a 4th level spell that creates a cloud of steam which rolls over your enemies and deals 2d6 points of damage. If they fail a reflex save, they get blinded. Permanently.
otakutaylor 04-01-07, 06:45 PM	I had an archivest cahracter one, though it only got played for 2 sessions (DM moved away) I really liked the character. LN, she was a merchant by trade and thus gave the PC's a means and reason to travel instead of just hang around in one town and wait for adventure to hit them. Healing spells came out often when our UMD rouge was busy or didn't have his wand of cure light, a little bit of damage from a mace (though I onyl hit about 1/4 of the time) and most often a little bit of dark knoledge goes a long way. "Hey, team, that's a [insert thing here]! go for the underarm, it's unarmored!" All players get +2 or +3 to attacks. Unless your DM is smart (or particularly evil) you'll commonly only fight one type of monster at a time. which means at most occasions, you count as 1 part cleric, 1.5 parts bardic music. And, as an added bonus, nearly no one else in your team needs to take any knowledge skills they don't need, like the party wizard only neededing knowledge arcana. If anyone has a question, you almost always have an answer.
El_Machinae 04-01-07, 07:14 PM	It's very, very DM dependant; moreso than most other classes, it seems.
periscope 04-01-07, 07:58 PM	Murderous Mist is a 4th level spell that creates a cloud of steam which rolls over your enemies and deals 2d6 points of damage. If they fail a reflex save, they get blinded. Permanently. Ouch, thats nasty!
Mordar 04-01-07, 11:21 PM	if you have time and resources along with acces to scrolls and the like, you can easily be on par with cleric and wizard, and even surpass them both
dunerunner 04-01-07, 11:57 PM	Honestly... I let one of my players have an Archivist for a cohort, and i regretted it pretty badly. They can DAZE things without a save, for one round. You know how frustrating it is when your big monster all of a sudden can't act because the archivist yells something out about it sleeping with a teddybear? If you allowed Complete Divine -- then they become ridiculously overpowered. Shugenja spells, anyone? Just buy a couple of wands of things like Lightning Bolt, they can use them. Haste. Teleport. It's pretty good if you're a player, but for the DM... Not so fun.
Arcane Guyver 04-02-07, 01:56 AM	They can DAZE things without a save, for one round. A somewhat common houserule for this is to make the Dread Secret ability a Knowledge check vs a Will save. And for heaven's sake, if you want to use archivists in your campaign, ban shugenja (or vice versa). Just a recipe for disaster, otherwise.
Bopple 04-02-07, 08:42 AM	With a good ability rolls and generous DM, an archivist can be as good as a cleric or wizard, or even better. With a restrictive DM, it's not ground-breaking. But as a full caster, it's still very powerful.
AllisterH 04-02-07, 10:19 AM	Like others have said, it's a DM-dependant class. Personally, I find it mechanically unsound. Let me explain. The archivist is supposedly a cleric that has a spellbook so basically why would you want to play it since its a nerfed cleric (no divine metamagic for you....) But if you allow it to *function* as it is supposed to a.k.a, "any divine spell on a scroll" (which honestly are easy enough to buy), then you end up with a class that gets some great spells balanced because they were restricted to a certain spell list. The Shuenja is the typical example of this. All in all, nice idea for a class but mechanically, way potentially unbalancing unless your DM says No a lot.
Fabius Maximus 04-02-07, 10:40 AM	A somewhat common houserule for this is to make the Dread Secret ability a Knowledge check vs a Will save. And for heaven's sake, if you want to use archivists in your campaign, ban shugenja (or vice versa). Just a recipe for disaster, otherwise. I play a Archivist of Shar in a FR campaign and wouldn't have even the idea to add spells from the Shugenja list. Or the Adept list, for that matter. Druid and Domain spells are evil enough. (Spell Domain, anyone?) Not that I'd complain about additional spells. The other player plays a succubus/soon-to-be Hexblade. It's dishing out charms right and left.
crowclub 04-02-07, 01:18 PM	Like others have said, it's a DM-dependant class. Personally, I find it mechanically unsound. Let me explain. The archivist is supposedly a cleric that has a spellbook so basically why would you want to play it since its a nerfed cleric (no divine metamagic for you....) But if you allow it to *function* as it is supposed to a.k.a, "any divine spell on a scroll" (which honestly are easy enough to buy), then you end up with a class that gets some great spells balanced because they were restricted to a certain spell list. The Shuenja is the typical example of this. All in all, nice idea for a class but mechanically, way potentially unbalancing unless your DM says No a lot. I'm missing something here. The Class can use Divine spells from non-Cleric lists. So basically it means you can cast stuff like Magic Missile (Nentyan Hunter level 1) or Invisibility (Adept level 2) or Haste (Shugenja level 3) if you learn them from scrolls (or cast them at low levels from scrolls you buy or scribe yourself) All this cost gold to do but is a strong (not broken) ability. Why do you feel this is unbalanced? The class can only cast so many spells per day regardless of what level they are being cast at. And compared to a Cleric (considered by many as the second strongest class in the game) you suffer a d6 instead of a d8, no turning ability, no heavy armour prof., no shield prof. and no Domains. I would say that it's still a nerfed Cleric at the end of the day. But some people might prefer to have the versatility of its potential spells rather than the stuff you get as a straight Cleric. What do you guys think? Is the ability to cast spells a lower levels than normal and also spells that would normally be reserved for Arcane classes such a strong ability that it makes the class broken? Is it stronger that a Druid, Cleric or Wizard?
smeagol_lied 04-02-07, 02:37 PM	Depends on scroll access and the rest of the party. If you ahev high scroll access and a combat-focused party, then yes, great. If you have low-scroll access and a party of mages, not so much.
Lotus Crane 04-02-07, 03:00 PM	What do you guys think? Is the ability to cast spells a lower levels than normal and also spells that would normally be reserved for Arcane classes such a strong ability that it makes the class broken? Is it stronger that a Druid, Cleric or Wizard? As others have already mentioned, the archivist is perhaps more dependent on the DM than any other class. But yes, in an environment where the archivist can actually learn adept, shugenja, and domain (ie most arcane) spells, it's arguably the most powerful class in the game. But let's do a comparative breakdown. 1) Clerics usually have 21 more hit points; archivists usually have 40 more skill points. I prefer the 40 skill points, myself. 2) Clerics choose 2 domains (gaining both powers and spells); archivists can potentially learn spells from every domain (they normally can't get the powers though). Hmm, 2 domains' powers and spells, or every domains' spells? 3) Clerics have medium BAB; archivists have poor BAB, but Scribe Scroll and 2 bonus feats. I'll admit that from 3rd-8th level, clerics probably have the advantage here, but at higher levels both can just cast divine power to have a fighter's BAB instead, so from 9th+ (and incidentally, from 1st-2nd), I think archivists come out ahead again. 4) Clerics have turning/rebuking; archivists have dark knowledge, lore mastery, and still mind. Well, in and of themselves, the special abilities of the archivist are more useful, but everybody knows that the real reason turning is powerful is because of divine feats. The real make-or-break here is Divine Persistent Metamagic with nightstick cheese; if the DM allows it, clerics win, but if the DM bans it, archivists win. 5) Archivists get to use Int as their primary spellcasting ability - Wis is purely optional unlike for most split-stat casters, since it only provides bonus spells; it isn't explicitly required to cast in the first place, and it doesn't affect save DC's. Since Int is a generally more useful ability to have than Wis in the first place, I'd say archivists have this as an advantage over clerics. All in all, I'd say that with a permissive DM, archivists are superior to clerics. Having access to literally 99% of all spells in the game makes broken but otherwise impossible combos, possible.
JulesCARV 04-02-07, 03:51 PM	I should point out that an archivist, if he's going to be the group's primary healer, will have to actually prepare healing spells, or have good wisdom and spend a feat (Spontaneous Healer). As such, they can't just fill up on every spell type but healing like a cleric can.
crowclub 04-02-07, 06:50 PM	As others have already mentioned, the archivist is perhaps more dependent on the DM than any other class. But yes, in an environment where the archivist can actually learn adept, shugenja, and domain (ie most arcane) spells, it's arguably the most powerful class in the game. But let's do a comparative breakdown. 1) Clerics usually have 21 more hit points; archivists usually have 40 more skill points. I prefer the 40 skill points, myself. 2) Clerics choose 2 domains (gaining both powers and spells); archivists can potentially learn spells from every domain (they normally can't get the powers though). Hmm, 2 domains' powers and spells, or every domains' spells? 3) Clerics have medium BAB; archivists have poor BAB, but Scribe Scroll and 2 bonus feats. I'll admit that from 3rd-8th level, clerics probably have the advantage here, but at higher levels both can just cast divine power to have a fighter's BAB instead, so from 9th+ (and incidentally, from 1st-2nd), I think archivists come out ahead again. 4) Clerics have turning/rebuking; archivists have dark knowledge, lore mastery, and still mind. Well, in and of themselves, the special abilities of the archivist are more useful, but everybody knows that the real reason turning is powerful is because of divine feats. The real make-or-break here is Divine Persistent Metamagic with nightstick cheese; if the DM allows it, clerics win, but if the DM bans it, archivists win. 5) Archivists get to use Int as their primary spellcasting ability - Wis is purely optional unlike for most split-stat casters, since it only provides bonus spells; it isn't explicitly required to cast in the first place, and it doesn't affect save DC's. Since Int is a generally more useful ability to have than Wis in the first place, I'd say archivists have this as an advantage over clerics. All in all, I'd say that with a permissive DM, archivists are superior to clerics. Having access to literally 99% of all spells in the game makes broken but otherwise impossible combos, possible. I see your point. I would add that I wouldn't want to break the class by using all the spells from all the possible sources because that would be pointless. I think disallowing the whole Domain spells would be a good start for balance. I'm happy with Nentyar Hunter, Ranger, Druid, Adept, and to a much lesser degree Shugenja spell lists being used because (assuming FR for the Nentyar Hunter) its more than plausible for a PC to have had contact with those classes. Taking FR as an example, a Human from the Great Dale (unapproachable East) would have access to all of those classes except the Shugenja. I'm not an Optimizer, but I do want an interesting and versatile class so I'm looking for an acceptable level of power without any possible game unbalancing issues. The tricky bit is knowing where to draw the line?
AllisterH 04-02-07, 07:43 PM	I'm happy with Nentyar Hunter, Ranger, Druid, Adept, and to a much lesser degree Shugenja spell lists being used because (assuming FR for the Nentyar Hunter) its more than plausible for a PC to have had contact with those classes. Taking FR as an example, a Human from the Great Dale (unapproachable East) would have access to all of those classes except the Shugenja. I'm not an Optimizer, but I do want an interesting and versatile class so I'm looking for an acceptable level of power without any possible game unbalancing issues. The tricky bit is knowing where to draw the line? It really comes down to the spells themselves. In a vacuum, the spells for each of the non-cleric divine casters probably aren't unbalanced. It's the potential combination of spells that make it really dangerous. Its why, even though a beguiler "KNOWS" more spells than a sorceror, a sorceror is still considered more powerful because the sorceror gets to pick the "BEST" spells and combine them in ways unforseen by the designers of said spells. That's why this is such a DM dependant class and why I consider it mechanically unsound. Either the DM allows everything and you get a caster with more flexibility/power than a cleric (already considered tied for the most powerful class in the game) or you houserule each and every spell and the player gets frustrated since every spell he gets, he has to get it past the DM.
crowclub 04-03-07, 11:53 AM	It really comes down to the spells themselves. In a vacuum, the spells for each of the non-cleric divine casters probably aren't unbalanced. It's the potential combination of spells that make it really dangerous. Its why, even though a beguiler "KNOWS" more spells than a sorceror, a sorceror is still considered more powerful because the sorceror gets to pick the "BEST" spells and combine them in ways unforseen by the designers of said spells. That's why this is such a DM dependant class and why I consider it mechanically unsound. Either the DM allows everything and you get a caster with more flexibility/power than a cleric (already considered tied for the most powerful class in the game) or you houserule each and every spell and the player gets frustrated since every spell he gets, he has to get it past the DM. Yeah it's going to cause some head butting I guess. Originally I was looking a creating a 9/10th level Archivist for an on-going game. In this scenario, I would have the character background based in the Great Dale and the dude already having a good selection of spells known from the Nentyar Hunter, Ranger, Druid and Adept because it's fairly plausible that the selected spells would be available in that region from those Classes/Prestige Classes. What I was overlooking was the problems creating an Archivist from scratch, as far as, where is he going to get access to each and every non-cleric spell he may want. I guess that explains why so few people appear to play the class. For those that do play the class, how have you (and your DM) managed to keep each other happy with the non-cleric spell selections?
Fabius Maximus 04-03-07, 01:49 PM	That's quite simple. 1. Use the Spell Compendium and the PHB II. 2. Have a nice DM who lets you find or buy prayer books with domain spells in them. 3. Take Initate feats.
XrP-Leon The Second 04-03-07, 01:55 PM	The Archivist can learn any spell in the game worth having. If it isn't on the Cleric spell list, he can learn it through a scroll if it is a divine spell. Also, since Clerics can get any arcane spell (worth having) through Domain Spells (See: Spell Compendium) and scrive them, an Archivist can get them as well. They are the most versitile caster in the game, but they don't have Wildshape, d8 hitdie, or medium BAB with an animal companion that can kill a Fighter. They're good though. Really good. And they're an interesting, flavorful character different than most achitypes.
teshen 04-03-07, 02:21 PM	Depends on scroll access and the rest of the party. If you ahev high scroll access and a combat-focused party, then yes, great. If you have low-scroll access and a party of mages, not so much. Archivist + Artificer. :devil: Done. :mymy:
JulesCARV 04-03-07, 04:55 PM	Artificers can't do it. As of the Eberron Campaign Setting errata, their scrolls are neither arcane nor divine. However, if you want a 1-person item creator, 1) Warlocks can do it with imbue item, eventually. 2) If you can create arbitrary magical items, such as through wish (which, as far as I know, has never a divine spell on any spell list or domain, so this will once again require reliance on a third party willing to expend significant experience), then you can create divine scrolls with several spells on them. (i.e., wish for a scroll with six divine spells you don't know) (a psion's reality revision might also be able to do it, but might not, since psionic items are specified, and scrolls are magical)