Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ekko 02-22-08, 07:48 PM	I noticed in the thread about banning the PHB classes that it's mentioned that the archivist is broken, or can be broken by either following the authors' intent or twisting variant rules. I'm just asking how. How is the archivist broken? This thread is for my enlightenment about the archivist class, not for a flame war. Just a disclaimer.
Jaxgaret 02-22-08, 07:54 PM	It can potentially gain access to every divine spell in the game, off of scrolls crafted by divine casters. This includes: 1) All Cleric domain spells, including many good spells off the Wizard list. 2) All spells at the lowest level available (Adept + Heal as a 5th level spell, for example). 3) Classes like the Divine Bard and Shugenja that open up whole new vistas of available divine spells. And the final element: Warlocks of 12th level or higher can craft a scroll with any spell on it, thus giving the Archivist access to it.
runestar 02-22-08, 07:58 PM	IMO, the archivist is a classic case of "ultimate power, ridiculous cost" In theory, it can access any divine spell in the game (even those from clerical domain spells, druid, adept, paladin, ranger, blackguard etc), but unless you have access to a warlock buddy willing to craft for you, it is extremely difficult to access all those spells, not to mention expensive (you need to pay for those scrolls, then pay again to scribe them into your prayer-book). However, if you can somehow work your way towards this ideal, then you have a truly wide spell list. Many domain spells tend to consist of wizard spells, so you now have divine versions of many popular wizard spells. or can be broken by either following the authors' intent or twisting variant rules. I am not sure how this is the case. The archivist's ability to learn any divine spell in the entire game is spelled out very clearly in its entry, and should leave no room for argument whatsoever.:confused:
Ekko 02-22-08, 07:59 PM	I always thought Warlock scrolls were arcane. Heh. So, is it really this simple? Because, frankly, a cleric gets most of this. Anyways, isn't what makes clerics broken the DMM cheese, not the spelllist? Archivists can't turn/rebuke, so that should add a fair deal of "balance." Edit: @ Runestar: the "twisting of variant rules" is one "interpretation" that was expressed on the thread that prompted me to ask this. Seems more like designer intent to me. And, you're right about the cost thing.
Jaxgaret 02-22-08, 08:02 PM	I always thought Warlock scrolls were arcane. Heh. Nope. So, is it really this simple? Because, frankly, a cleric gets most of this. It is really that simple, and no, a Cleric doesn't get most of that, he gets some of it. An Archivist can potentially have all domain spells in his prayerbook. The Cleric can potentially have a few domains, and only be able to cast the spells off of those lists 1/day unless he takes the Domain Spontaneity feat. See the difference? That's before you even get to points 2 and 3. Anyways, isn't what makes clerics broken the DMM cheese, not the spelllist? Archivists can't turn/rebuke, so that should add a fair deal of "balance." Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, and Wizard are all just about equally powerful at the top tier of class balance. Archivist gains Turning via Sacred Exorcist, and can then use DMM just like a Cleric.
runestar 02-22-08, 08:11 PM	I always thought Warlock scrolls were arcane. Heh. They can be arcane or divine, depending on his preference. Anyways, isn't what makes clerics broken the DMM cheese, not the spelllist? Archivists can't turn/rebuke, so that should add a fair deal of "balance." It was the clerical spell-list first and foremost, DMM merely allowed it to be broken a little more easily. Even before complete divine came out, clerics already simulated this using divine power + quickened divine favour. DMM just streamlined the process somewhat.:) That said, as already mentioned, the archivist can get to cherry pick his spell choices. Why bother with heal as a 6th lv cleric spell, when you can have it as a 5th lv adept spell? Not to mention that if your DM allows access to the runescarred berserker's spell list (unapproachable east) - you need a warlock for this, since they cannot scribe, then you access quite a few key spells at a lv lower. For example, divine power is 3rd lv, cure spells are 1 lv lower than the clerical norm, and AMF as a 5th lv spell...:eek: The possibilities are really limited only by what splatbooks you have access to...:P
JaronK 02-22-08, 08:15 PM	Whew. Here goes nothing. Okay, so you'll want to have looked at the 3.5 FAQ, which talks a bit about how Archivists are supposed to search around for esoteric spells (it's talking specifically about Domain Spells, but the reason why is important to understanding the point of the class). There's more commentary about this subject, I believe it's in Classes with Class. Also, for reference, here's the class itself: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3 So, it looks fine, right? But here's the catch: it can have ANY divine spell added to the spells castable, just by getting a scroll. In effect, his class spell list is all divine spells (though his two free spells per level must be off the standard Cleric list). Let's look quickly at the possibilities: First, there's the core ones: Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Adept. Don't forget the Domain spells. If you look through your favorite Wizard spells, most of them are also on a Domain list (and as more domains were added outside of core, more spells were added to domains). Look again at the Adept. Notice they get a bunch of spells that aren't normally divine, plus a few at lower levels than normal (why helo thar, level 5 heal!). This is balanced for them, because they get those spell levels slower than most, but Archivists don't. Likewise, check out the Ranger and Paladin lists... there's some REALLY nice ones burried in there. Next, we get good ole' BoED, which has a ton of PrCs with divine casting. Throw in the completes and we get the Shuggenja, which has traditionally arcane spells on its list, but which is a Divine caster. Fun stuff. And then there's the silly ones. Remember Explosive Runes and Shrink Item? Hard to find those anywhere else. How can we get those? Well, it's easier than you might think. Dragon Magic has a varient for Favoured Souls that lets them add ANY 6th level or lower Wizard/Sorcerer spell to their spell list as a divine spell. That means those all exist as divine spells. Rock! Meanwhile, either Complete Mage or Complete Champion (I can never remember which) has the option of adding any Wizard/Sorc spell from one of a few schools to the Cleric list. Yehaw. And if you want overkill, the Hexer PrC from Masters of the Wild can be entered by divine casters and can add any Wizard/Sorcerer spell to their spell list too... and that's the whole list. Honestly, you don't need the Hexer (it's technically legal, but it's 3.0), as at this point you've probably got every Wizard/Sorcerer spell you want via 3.5 sources, but it's in there for completeness. Meanwhile, there's those tasty Bard spells. But look! UA has the Divine Bard, which gets their whole list as divine spells. It's massive overkill at this point, since we've got Wizard/Sorc spells already, but hey, overkill can be fun, and you asked why they were overpowered. No need to pull punches. So, you might be saying if you're still reading at this point, what does that matter? Why, I'd have to find a Favoured Soul who happened to select Explosive Runes and had Scribe Scroll just to get that spell! That'll never happen! Wrong, my friend. First of all, if you read over the Magic Item Creation rules carefully, you'll find that if you have the feat (scribe scroll) and the caster level, you don't actually need to know the spell... you just need a buddy who knows the spell. So that Favoured Soul friend of yours doesn't need scribe scroll, which makes things easier, because you have it. Make sure to actually read the beginning of that section by the way. A later section says you have to know the spell, but that's a quick summary... the earlier bit goes into detail and says that actually, you just need access to the spell. But still, you say, where am I going to find a Favoured Soul with the tasty spell I need? Or a Trickery Domain cleric so I can have Timestop? You're right of course. That sounds hard, and those are probably rare. Which brings us to an Archivist's best buddy. The Warlock. He's in Complete Arcane, and his 12th level ability lets him create any scroll you want without him needing to know the spell. I'll let that sink in for a sec. Now, all those rare and exotic spells that are so hard to find... they're all available from your friendly neighborhood 12th level Warlock. We've proved the spells can exist as divine spells, and now he can create all of them. Pay him for his services, get him as a cohort, convince your friend to play as one, whatever, just get in good with your local Warlock and you're on easy street to uber power. And now the Archivist went from "funny Cleric varient" to "that guy the Wizard is jealous of." Woo! You can cast, well, pretty much everything. Also, notice that you have one more spell per day of each level than a Wizard. Fun fun. Now, that was a lot of information, and some will complain "hey, that's like a million books you just used!" But really, you can find almost everything you want with the PHB, Complete Arcane, and perhaps Dragon Magic, and that's it. Heck, you don't really need Dragon Magic for most of them (but I do so love Explosive Runes). But wait, there's more! A single level dip into Sacred Exorcist means you can now use Divine Metamagic. Why helo thar, Divine Persistant Swift Haste (it's a level 2 Ranger Spell). Or let's get stupid: Divine Persistant Field of Ghouls (SpC, Hunger domain). Read that spell carefully and think about what happens if you persist it and then walk through a battlefield after the fight or hospital. How about Divine Persistant Giant Size (Hero Domain 9) combined with Divine Persistant Shapechange (Druid 9, Animal 9) to literally turn into Godzilla? You might want to throw in Divine Persistant Divine Favor and Wraithstrike, since your BAB could use the help and touch attacks are fun. Also, there's a spell in the Spell Compendium to turn into a giant Warforged, if you want to go all mecha style in your insane carnage. Or, you know, Bite of the Werewolf is another amusing one. Just grab a few Nightsticks (+4 turn attempts, explictly stacks with self) and go to town. Smash Tokyo and teach those Clerics and Druids how it's done! And that, good sir, is why Archivists belong in the Big 5 power classes... one of only two that aren't from core. Artificers being the other newbie to the scene, while Druids, Clerics, and Wizards are the other three. JaronK
Cartigan 02-22-08, 08:16 PM	Through a preferential rule/FAQ reading, they can cast every spell in the game. Then that is streamlined by using the Warlock nonsense crafting ability.
StruckingFuggle 02-22-08, 08:17 PM	Can a Cleric of the Spell domain use Greater Anyspell to create Divine Scrolls of all Wizard spells of Level <6?
JaronK 02-22-08, 08:17 PM	Aw man, I got ninja'd by people who weren't willing to write an essay on the topic. Oh, also, I forgot to mention that Archivists can qualify for the Shadowcraft Mage PrC if they feel like being insulting. Silent Image is Gnome Domain 1, by the way. JaronK
JaronK 02-22-08, 08:20 PM	Through a preferential rule reading, they can cast every spell in the game. Note that this is false. Some spells are not available. Any spell that is exclusive to the Dread Necromancer list (such as Greater Harm) or the Wu Jen list, or that awfully nice looking Trapsmith list (no new spells there, but they're MUCH lower level than normal) is unavailable as an Archivist spell. The same would be true of Beguilers, Duskblades, and Warmages, but I don't think they have any exclusive spells. That said... you've got all the good ones (except the Trapsmith ones, which is sad), so it doesn't much matter. There is no preferential rule reading involved, of course. Nothing even debateable, really, except by saying "it's bad!" JaronK
Ekko 02-22-08, 08:40 PM	Wow. That's...just...mindblowing. I knew they could get a lot of spells but...(boom.) Runestar did have a good point: Cost. You pay twice for each spell. Still...wow. EDIT: @ StruckingFuggle: I don't think so. I think the spell just lets a divine caster cast an arcane spell, but still treats it as arcane for everything else. I also don't know about ASF and Anyspell. And, one more thing: an archivist can't actually cast Anyspell or Greater Anyspell. He doesn't have a domain slot. That's one thing a cleric can do that an archivist can't.
Jaxgaret 02-22-08, 08:46 PM	Wow. That's...just...mindblowing. I knew they could get a lot of spells but...(boom.) It is quite strong. Runestar did have a good point: Cost. You pay twice for each spell. Still...wow. You pay twice what a Wizard crafting his own scrolls would, yes.
JaronK 02-22-08, 08:47 PM	Wow. That's...just...mindblowing. I knew they could get a lot of spells but...(boom.) Yeah. I've always thought of Archivists as being rather head explodey myself. And, one more thing: an archivist can't actually cast Anyspell or Greater Anyspell. He doesn't have a domain slot. That's one thing a cleric can do that an archivist can't. Holt Warden gives Domain Slots. Sacred Exorcist covers Divine Metamagic. Contemplative will then give you more domains. Then you get to bite your thumb at the Cleric before you use Persistant Shapechange and moon the Druid. FEAR THE ARCHIVIST! JaronK
runestar 02-22-08, 08:48 PM	And, one more thing: an archivist can't actually cast Anyspell or Greater Anyspell. He doesn't have a domain slot. That's one thing a cleric can do that an archivist can't. It is a grey area, but the initiate of mystra feat lets you add greater/anyspell to your spell list. I could argue that its intent was to let you prepare any wizard arcane spell in your normal slots, though it was not explicitly stated. Also, mnemonic enhancer is a spell domain spell, so you can learn it and use it to prepare a few low lv wizard spells as well.:)
JaronK 02-22-08, 08:48 PM	You pay twice what a Wizard crafting his own scrolls would, yes. The cost part can be annoying. If only you had ways of getting more money. Ooh look, there's Flesh to Salt, Fabricate and Wall of Iron. How interesting. :) Though honestly, most DMs will smack you on the head for abusing those. Then again, most DMs will smack you on the head for cutting loose with an Archivist anyway, so wear a helmet to your next gaming session and have fun! JaronK
runestar 02-22-08, 10:07 PM	The cost part can be annoying. If only you had ways of getting more money. The idea here is to adhere to the wealth guidelines. Then, it is less problematic, since the archivist now has to choose between upgrading his gear or his spellbook.:)
Cartigan 02-22-08, 10:19 PM	The idea here is to adhere to the wealth guidelines. Then, it is less problematic, since the archivist now has to choose between upgrading his gear or his spellbook.:) Boccob's Blessed Book effectively halves the cost of doing business, which considering the half is 12,500 GP, that isn't dismissible.
pigknight 02-22-08, 10:53 PM	Warlock can make any spell divine, Wu Jen, Wizard ect. Now with a few houserules you might get your DM to allow vestiges, mysteries, true names, maneuvers and invocation (yay for all the scroll-ish stuff out there). Gestalt Archivists/Warlocks are insta-win.
JaronK 02-23-08, 01:09 AM	Warlock can make any spell divine, Wu Jen, Wizard ect. Now with a few houserules you might get your DM to allow vestiges, mysteries, true names, maneuvers and invocation (yay for all the scroll-ish stuff out there). Heh, no. Warlocks can't make any spell divine (you can't get Greater Harm). And certainly not manuevers! It's not just anything scrollish... the divine spell has to actually exist! Well, sorta. Okay, technically any divine caster can research new spells. But that's totally under DM control. JaronK
pigknight 02-23-08, 01:23 AM	Warlocks can pretend to be an arcanist and divine caster at the same time through 2 UMD checks (yay divine magic missle!) and some DMs might just allow the archivist to add any scroll-ish thing to their prayerbook.
JaronK 02-23-08, 01:25 AM	...I really hope not. I mean, it's not like there's any reason that should be allowed. Their restriction is "divine spells only." It's not much of a restricted (as shown in this thread), but it's still there, just like Wizards can only grab spells off the Wizard spell list. JaronK
pigknight 02-23-08, 01:29 AM	But alas it is true, archivist can learn arcane spells (let's just be glad they can't learn every "spell" out there).
Count Arioch the 28th 02-23-08, 01:39 AM	I don't consider archivist to be broken. Sure, you can get a lot of spells. That's no huge deal, wizards have already been doing that for years. Archivists don't have an ability that clerics have, turn undead. Which is irrelevant until you considre divine feats. An archivist can learn a lot of different spells, while a cleric runs around all day with divine persistent spells up./
JaronK 02-23-08, 01:52 AM	Archivists don't have an ability that clerics have, turn undead. Which is irrelevant until you considre divine feats. An archivist can learn a lot of different spells, while a cleric runs around all day with divine persistent spells up./ But it only takes a one level dip into Sacred Exorcist to fix that, which costs pretty much nothing (easy requirements to enter, no lost casting). Combine that with a Holt Warden dip for domain slots and you're good to go. JaronK
Count Arioch the 28th 02-23-08, 02:11 AM	You're still worse off than a cleric in that case. You still have less armor and fewer hit points, not to mention that you don't really have anything that you don't need anyway, as a majority of the good buff spells are off the cleric list.
runestar 02-23-08, 02:29 AM	not to mention that you don't really have anything that you don't need anyway, as a majority of the good buff spells are off the cleric list. Spells possibly 1 lv lower than what a cleric can cast. Draconic Polymorph via greater anyspell Shapechange via animal domain...:D It is true that there aren't a lot of spells I would need, but there a ton of spells I sure would like...:cool:
LSMFT 02-23-08, 11:33 AM	While all that is said about the archivist’s power is correct, I think you have to keep in mind that it is really theoretical. In an actual game, there are going to most likely be a lot of checks on this potential. He can, if you look at all the divine spell lists from all the domains and PrCs, probably find every single spell out there. Theoretically. But, in an actual game, I think players have to respect the fact that it probably won’t be a free-for-all. If there are no divine bards, there is not divine bard spell list. PrCs are optional according to the rules, so, were I sitting down and making an archivist for an actual game, I would be pretty foolish, I think, if I just assumed that each and every one of their spell-lists were automatically going to be available. I’ve played a lot of wizards over the years. They have the similar option of finding hundreds of spells. From experience, the campaign can have a lot to say about where and when you can find them. I mean, have you ever gone two or three levels without having a chance to stop at a metropolis? I have. Have you in any previous game encountered a scroll of Divine Timestop as loot? I haven’t. Warlocks – Looking at a level 20 archivist on paper, this is clearly a great answer. But at what level are you going to actually be playing? You can’t have a cohort with Imbue Item until you are at least level 14. If you started at level one, that’s a long time. And warlocks solve the accessibility question about scrolls, and reduce the costs for buying them, but there are still questions of costs, gold and time. These should not be dismissed when you are actually thinking of playing an archivist. At level 13 (before you get your warlock cohort with Imbue Item) you will, by buying just two scrolls of each spell level to add to your prayerbook, have invested roughly 16% of your income in getting those great spells. Not that that’s bad. I do the same or more with just about every wizard I play. But 15%-20% of your income is, in my experience and opinion, about the maximum feasible investment. (Considering the opportunity costs, all the other things you could be spending that gold on.) So, when you go to prepare your spells, you are choosing from among the 45-50 in your book. The cleric is picking from the over 400 available to him.* Yeah, you picked the greatest possible spells. You don’t have any worthless ones masquerading as options. You’re picking from a better pool, so to speak. But a cleric is picking from the sea. Even if 75% of the spells are never under any circumstance worth having, he's got twice the options you do. The breadth of the cleric’s options is a pretty undeniable counterbalance to the archivist's (admittedly) better spell-list. Another note on clerics – the archivist can get turning and domains from PrCs, but a cleric already has them. He has them at level one; he doesn’t have to wait until level 8. He doesn’t have to pick PrCs to get turning and domains and can pick PrCs for more domains and powerful benefits in addition to his turning. And, anyone playing a divine caster needs to consider that he is going to have to do some duty as the party band-aid. When you do, you really can’t beat spontaneous conversion. Both clerics and archivists are equally able to do this with items, at a cost, but the cleric has the versatility to prepare spells that buff or kill and still cast healing spells when he needs them. The archives has one fewer option on this front. In theory, the archivist is, as JaronK et al. have said, uberCoDZillas. But to play one you should realize they aren’t quite up to that. Which isn’t to say that they aren’t CoDZillas even with all my caveats. They are. They are still easily in the top 4 or five classes powerwise. They are full casters, and divine ones at that. Of course they are. *Using the PHB and the Spell Compendium, there are 421 cleric spells of levels 1-7. I didn’t factor in that good clerics can’t pick from evil spells in that sea. But I also didn’t include their domains in that figure.
Jaxgaret 02-23-08, 01:45 PM	On paper (CO) and in game usage are two completely different things, and have no direct relevance to one another. But ask yourself: if the DM and player have to work to arbitrarily limit the Archivist's access to spells, doesn't that mean that the Archivist does have that ability? If the game world was "real", the Archivist could do those things outlined above.
Shadowhowler 02-23-08, 03:06 PM	I have to agree with LSMFT. An Archivists power is awesome to behold... in theory. I have never played in a game or ran a game where everything that ever came out in any book automaticly existed in the world. Thus... while an Archivist has great potential for spell versitility... in actauly play, I highly doubt that it would go over the line.
TazendrasGhost 02-23-08, 03:27 PM	I've played one, and had a great time at it, and I didn't outshine the rest of the party, that was the Druid's job. :-) Aside: A druid who spends most of his time Wildshaped and goes into melee after casting Bite of the Werebear plus Girralon's Blessing is a real monster. Finding all those esoteric spells was part of the fun. My DM didn't come out and restrict me from learning any spell I wanted to, but first I had to either find it on a scroll or find someone who could cast it and was willing to put it on a scroll for me. My character spent a good bit of my time sifting through old libraries, and exploring abandoned temples searching for some obscure spell that I wanted to find. I found some great spells, but it took a good bit of time and money, and I didn't get immediate access to everything I wanted. Sure, it could be abused if the DM isn't careful, but you can say the same thing about a variety of other classes too. I wouldn't mind having one in any game I was playing or DMing in.
LSMFT 02-23-08, 03:38 PM	On paper (CO) and in game usage are two completely different things, and have no direct relevance to one another. But ask yourself: if the DM and player have to work to arbitrarily limit the Archivist's access to spells, doesn't that mean that the Archivist does have that ability? If the game world was "real", the Archivist could do those things outlined above. I'm not sure what you mean by "work together to arbitrarily limit access." I'm not suggesting that DMs might say, "There are no Divine Bards because I don't want you to get spell X." But doesn't it seem reasonable that a DM might not simply not have divine bards? I've never seen one played. Never had a player ask. So, isn't a player who asks for a divine scroll from a bard list being a little presumptuous? I’m not going to be a dick and say that certain classes, variants, and PrCs don’t exist just to limit a guy playing an archivist, but I’m not going to say they all do just because he wants access to their domains and spells-lists either. If a player of an archivist came to me looking for a divine scroll of whatever, I would ask for the divine list it came from. If he replied, say, Hexer, I would say no. There are no Hexers in my campaign. I don’t have the book. I don’t know the class. I don’t allow things I don’t have the book for. Even if he brought me the book, I would have to see if they were suitable. All PrCs need to be approved, and I’m not going to tacitly approve a PrC by admitting their spell-list when I don't think the class itself is a fit. If there is no place in my campaign for Hexers, there are not Hexer spells. Honestly, if the player thought my whole point was to screw his character, I’d think that was pretty immature. If my campaign has a hexor running around casting that spell, why would I care about the archivist having it? No. That’s silly. I don’t. But it is more silly for a player to operate under the assumption that every PrC exists somewhere in the world, so therefore if they look long enough, they are assured of finding a scroll with a spell from a particular PrC’s list. I definite didn’t suggest that a player would only add a couple of spells per spell-level to his book because he didn’t want to break the character or something. I mean, knowing you have only so much time and gold to spend, and deciding that some of needs to be spent on things other than new spells isn’t going out of my way to limit the class is it? The rest of what I mentioned involved constraints of time and resources. Is that deliberately working against the archivist? If the campaign takes the party to some far-flung corner of the world where he doesn't have access to shops, is that somehow automatically a deliberate attempt to limit them? I just don't see that. Just because the campaign might be more difficult for an archivist to thrive, that does not mean the campaign was deliberately constructed to screw him, does it?
Shadowhowler 02-23-08, 03:52 PM	I’m not going to be a dick and say that certain classes, variants, and PrCs don’t exist just to limit a guy playing an archivist, but I’m not going to say they all do just because he wants access to their domains and spells-lists either. That, right there, is the key. As I said... I have never DMed or played in a game where everything from everysplat book and every varriant existed in the gameworld. Oftentimes, when a player wants to play something obscure, I have to ADD it to my gameworld just to allow the play to play it. Which I will be willing to do, if the character concept is really good. In this case... there are in most game worlds a LOT of things that will not exist... and thus it is highly unlikely that any Archivist in actualy play will become the huge problem that they have the potential to become from theoritcal optimization. Also... I doubt all Archivists are going to want to take a Walock Chohort at the level needed for it to make all those scrolls for him. So... in actauly play... I don't see an Archivist being as bad as a standered Cleric, Druid or Wizard... becuase those classes have automatic features that make them nasty that you don't need the game world to bend over and take it from them to get them. I see the Archivist in actual play as an interisting and versital caster.
JaronK 02-23-08, 06:03 PM	These most recent points are why the Archivist is just one of the big 5, and not the best of them. Even though the class abilities of the Archivist are enough to cast everything a Wizard can cast (plus armour, class abilities, etc, making him clearly better), in actuality it's hard to get all those spells, and the Archivist is the easiest of the big 5 for DMs to stealth nerf (usually in a roundabout way, by saying X PrC doesn't exist, X class varient doesn't exist, and no, there's no Warlocks who are willing to take cash for scrolls). Thus, by RAW the Archivist is probably the strongest class in existance (though at that point, it's like saying a nation with 100,000 nuclear weapons is stronger than one with 50,000), but in actual play his power tends to vary from the bottom of the pack to the top, depending on what's allowed. It is, after all, much harder to nerf a Wizard without making it look like a nerf. JaronK
Shadowhowler 02-23-08, 08:44 PM	These most recent points are why the Archivist is just one of the big 5, and not the best of them. Even though the class abilities of the Archivist are enough to cast everything a Wizard can cast (plus armour, class abilities, etc, making him clearly better), in actuality it's hard to get all those spells, and the Archivist is the easiest of the big 5 for DMs to stealth nerf (usually in a roundabout way, by saying X PrC doesn't exist, X class varient doesn't exist, and no, there's no Warlocks who are willing to take cash for scrolls). Thus, by RAW the Archivist is probably the strongest class in existance (though at that point, it's like saying a nation with 100,000 nuclear weapons is stronger than one with 50,000), but in actual play his power tends to vary from the bottom of the pack to the top, depending on what's allowed. It is, after all, much harder to nerf a Wizard without making it look like a nerf. JaronK QFT. :cookie:
Jaxgaret 02-24-08, 12:39 AM	I was a bit rushed when I made my earlier post*, so I didn't really get to make a full response to what LSMFT said. I don't want to just parrot JaronK's last post, so I'll just say that his is exactly the point that I should have elaborated on in post 5 of this thread. I shouldn't have assumed that it was self-evident that if I was lumping the Archivist in with the other 4 top-tier casters, I believed that its actual spell-learning capacity was limited enough for it not to be above the others. Even if you don't allow the Divine Bard lists, Hexer lists, etc. - which was only one of my original three points about why the Archivist's spell selection is powerful - they still have potential access to every cleric domain spell and potentially the lowest level possible on every divine spell off of every divine list that you do allow. I'll make another point here: don't you, as DM, reserve the right to throw a Divine Bard at the party if you so choose? You may limit your game world so that it will never have such "oddities", but some of us like a more unlimited game world where anything is possible. I don't like as the DM to limit my players any more than I have to. I trust them not to screw up the campaign purposefully, and I can always fix it if they do so accidentally. * I had to make my gaming session today. Hoo boy was it a busy one - three of our high level seven-person party just got hit with an Epic reverse alignment spell. Fun times ahead.
LSMFT 02-25-08, 11:02 AM	I'll make another point here: don't you, as DM, reserve the right to throw a Divine Bard at the party if you so choose?For me it is like this, I spell out specifically what automatically exists. In my homebrewed setting, that’s all core and all complete base-classes excluding those of “eastern flavor” (Wu gen, spirit shamen, etc.) As such, the players are free to presume that at least one person exists somewhere of every class I have preapproved. Anything besides those may be approved on a case-by-case basis. In those cases, I consider a variety of factors, balance, the integrity of the campaign, the desires of the player, etc. I’m not inclined to say no often, but just getting access to a spell-list isn’t likely to make the cut. Just my opinion. Almost all PrCs from the Completes are going to be approved for a player to take, excluding the ur-priest, but though I will almost certainly allow you to be an Ultimate Magus, or whatever, that doesn’t mean there are others. You may be the Ultimate Magus. If the PCs have not encountered one before and the PrC is not specifically mentioned in my world description, for example, those tied to organizations, like say the Fochlucan Lyrists, then the presumption is that there probably isn't anyone of that class out there. You may limit your game world so that it will never have such "oddities", but some of us like a more unlimited game world where anything is possible. I don't like as the DM to limit my players any more than I have to. I trust them not to screw up the campaign purposefully, and I can always fix it if they do so accidentally.Well, first of all, my point, one point, was that players can’t assume. I’m sure there are a lot of games where a guy thinking of making an archivist can count on easily getting any spell he wants from any list he can find in any source he can produce. But there are a lot of games, I’m sure you agree, where that just wouldn’t happen. Secondly, it isn’t about arbitrarily limiting players. But most games do have certain limits. At least, most games I know of. I’m not talking about situations where limits are made specifically with the purpose of restricting one class. But limits and circumstances that might tend to do so incidentally. I think the archivist, due to the way he gets his vaunted power, is particularly subject to some of those possible limitations and circumstances.
Count Arioch the 28th 02-25-08, 03:41 PM	And even in a world where you allowed every printed spell, a straight cleric will be superior power-wise.
Shadowhowler 02-25-08, 04:01 PM	And even in a world where you allowed every printed spell, a straight cleric will be superior power-wise. It would seem that way to me too... given that he gets Domain spells as extras, better Hit Dice and Armour and combat ability in addiiton to his spellcasting. However, I'm sure that those who make it their buissness to know these things have figured out WHY an an Achivist with acsess to all the spells out there would be more powerfull.
Krusk 02-25-08, 04:32 PM	Assuming level 20 and no prestige or multiclassing? yes i would say cleric is probably more powerful. for the levels working up to that? not so much. The archivist can get spells at much lower levels than a cleric can. For example. Restoration lesser- a level 1 paladin spell (thus level 1 archivist) Restoration lesser- a level 2 cleric spell the archivist can have access to this spell sooner than clerics, in addition to getting all the spells clerics get. As has been shown, taking one level of a prestige class can grant turn undead, and then DMM which more than makes up for a diffrence the 2 classes may have had.
Jaxgaret 02-25-08, 07:36 PM	It would seem that way to me too... given that he gets Domain spells as extras, better Hit Dice and Armour and combat ability in addiiton to his spellcasting. However, I'm sure that those who make it their buissness to know these things have figured out WHY an an Achivist with acsess to all the spells out there would be more powerfull. The Archivist is, like the other big 5, in a category by itself at the top. They're all just about equivalent in power, situation permitting. Look at it this way: an Archivist whose spells known included all possible divine spells would undoubtedly be the strongest of the five - they would basically have all of the best spells in the game at the lowest level possible, and 3e's power balance is largely based on what spells you are packing - but that is an impossibility due to monetary concerns, limited access to spells within the campaign world, and OOG limited campaign spell access. The question then becomes: how many great spells does the Archivist know? That depends entirely on the campaign.
danielinthewolvesden 02-25-08, 08:59 PM	Through a preferential rule/FAQ reading, they can cast every spell in the game. Then that is streamlined by using the Warlock nonsense crafting ability. And unlimited time & gold. Then there's strethcing the rules by Hexer and such- heck, once you have an "anything goes game" then you have Pun-Pun sitting on your right and a Planar Shepard on your left and you are the weakest of the 3. Or you can allow Optional rules. Sure, but Gestalt is an Optional rule from the exact same source. There's some gestalt builds that make the Archivist cry like a baby. Bring in Multiclassing? Yep, that add a lot of power to the Archivist- but it does the same to many other classes too. Here's the deal- in a IRL game game without Munchkin nonsense and a Monty Haul DM, the Archivist is less powerful than the Cleric, Druid, Wizard and esp the Artificer. Or even the Psion, depending on campaign. I have actually played the class, and it is no super-class. No sane DM will allow the Munchkin rule stretching or the unlimited time and gold required to make the Archivist so powerful. LSMFT is correct- the Archivist's great power is theoretical, not real.
JaronK 02-25-08, 09:55 PM	And unlimited time & gold. Unlimited? Now you're stretching things. Scrolls are not THAT expensive, especially if you take appropriate feats that reduce magic item creation time and cost... or have your scroll crafting cohort do so. You don't need ALL spells, you just need the good ones. Usually that will mean persistable buffs like Bite of the Werewolf, Swift Haste, and Wraithstrike. Then there's strethcing the rules by Hexer and such- heck, once you have an "anything goes game" then you have Pun-Pun sitting on your right and a Planar Shepard on your left and you are the weakest of the 3. There's a huge difference between "hmm, I have a class that is supposed to find scrolls of obscure spells. I think I'll team up with a class that's really good at making scrolls of obscure spells" and Pun Pun. One is actually a very reasonable way to play a class, following the intent of the class, and the other takes a whole lot of wacky tricks. And sure, the Druid can go Planar Shepard, but you could go Binder 1/Archivist 4/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Aprostate 5 and be one heck of a master of undead (using the adaptation section of Anima Mage to get it as a divine class). And hey, you get one free turn attempt per 5 rounds. Fun stuff. I wonder what we can use that for... Or you can allow Optional rules. Sure, but Gestalt is an Optional rule from the exact same source. There's some gestalt builds that make the Archivist cry like a baby. Gestalt is not meant to be played with normal PCs. Divine Bards are. Not that we really need Bard spells to make an Archivist strong, but please don't compare varient classes designed to work within the normal rules with rule changes that effect the entire campaign. And if you DO play gestalt, Wizard//Archivist or Archivist//Artificer are some of the strongest Gestalts in existance. Bring in Multiclassing? Yep, that add a lot of power to the Archivist- but it does the same to many other classes too. Not necessarily. Druids, for example, only benefit from Planar Shepard, while Archivists gain a lot more from various PrCs. Here's the deal- in a IRL game game without Munchkin nonsense and a Monty Haul DM, the Archivist is less powerful than the Cleric, Druid, Wizard and esp the Artificer. Or even the Psion, depending on campaign. First, read this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_(role-playing_games)) "Munchkin" implies cheating and a general lack of roleplay. Since Archivists are supposed to by fluff be looking for ways to get obscure spells, and no cheating is involved, "Munchkin" is a completely inappropriate term here. And again, you don't need all spells. You just need the best ones... and then you'd want to persist them. Frankly, if its not a monty haul DM, they may not allow Clerics, Druids, Wizards, or Artificers anyway. JaronK