Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Addax 02-20-06, 11:10 AM	I need some help with what appears to be a very overpowered ability possessed by the Archivist. Most of the class is just fine, I’ve watched my player use the class quite effectively and it didn’t seem truly unbalanced until he reached 11th level and started using his newfound Dread Secret ability. The ability in a nutshell is the archivist speaking a dread secret about 1 target creature. (It should be noted that without a few feats this ability only affects magical beasts, aberrations, undead, outsiders and elementals. My character has taken the feat that allows him to effect dragons and constructs, also this and other Dark knowledge skills can only be used once on any creature) This dread secret’s effect is based on an appropriate knowledge check with a DC of 25 causing the creature to be dazed and a successful DC 35 causing them to be stunned for 1 round. This takes a move equivalent action. Superficially it didn’t seem to bad until I saw the results. A dazed or stunned creature can take no actions. If this ability is used on say a flying creature with anything less than good maneuverability it can no longer take any move actions to keep itself aloft. Especially effective on dragons. Doesn’t matter if it’s a Great Wyrm or a hatchling born yesterday, this dread secret will drop it from the sky. Also note that this ability only takes a move equivalent action to perform so you have plenty of time to cast just about any spell you want afterward, if you have acquired a familiar, thru multiclassing most likely, you can deliver a rather potent spell in the same round that you drop this creature. Harm or slay living is a good choice. There is no save, no cap on hit dice and if the creature is immune to stunning it can still be dazed. You can effect Gods with this. A deity usually has 20 outsider hit dice and 20 to 30 character levels on top of that. This 11th level character can’t make the DC 60 Knowledge the planes check to learn the slightest abilities of your average god but with a mere DC 25 can reveal a secret so shocking about it that the god can’t do anything for a full six seconds. Even Otto’s Irresistible Dance allows spell resistance and power word stun has hitpoint caps. And those are 8th level spells. This is an 11th level character for crying out loud! I have watched dragons dropped from the sky and killed in a single round with this ability. Between falling and suddenly being in the reach of the rest of the party, most creatures of a reasonable CR don’t have a chance. Does anyone think this is worthy of some Errata?
Flamewarrior 02-20-06, 03:42 PM	Good to see another person thinking the same as me. What`d you think about 10 + HD / 20 + HD?
Saxis 02-20-06, 04:41 PM	Seems very powerful indeed, for a no save daze/stun effect. Only thing I can see that would be a hindrance, is that you still need to be within 60 feet of the creature you are making the check on. That would be pretty hard for most flying dragons.
-Defiler of Souls- 02-20-06, 05:00 PM	I've never been one to change the way somethings works when not absolutely necessary so I have to suggest to before doing so try to compensate using other methods....throw more contructs/undead at the party... though above all else i'd advocate scaling monsters to fit the party....don't just use the monster manual stats(which IMHO are woefully lacking in HP compared to PCs of a similar level)....cuase in short if the party is fighting a single dragon and no other enemies, they shouldn't be able to finish such a monster in 1 round even if it is stunned. For example in my current campaign most of the party has a very high damage output, but we still find a good challenge because the DM scales the monsters(for example one boss we fought at level 9 or so have just over 1000 hp) And by the way i do agree this ability is a bit on the powerful side, but it's nothing that can't be compensated for or prepared for, as long as the dm is willing to put in the extra bit of work
Jaid 02-20-06, 05:17 PM	the problem is with the CR of a single creature IMO. basically, if there is only one enemy, then denying that enemy it's action in some way or another turns it into a punching bag. killing it ends the encounter, thus making save-or-dies very effective in that sort of situation. try throwing in a couple of slightly weaker creatures, with maybe a couple much weaker creatures thrown into the mix to provide flanking support and such. and, for the record, giving stuff more HP doesn't make it suck less... it makes it suck longer. a really tough punching bag is not going to be a good opponent to any boxer, no matter how much of a beating it can take; to be challenged, you must have an opponent that can hit back. to make it a fair match, you would have to multiply it's actions by the number of characters or something like that as well, because the real problem here is that the creature is unable to damage anything. of course, taking a single creature of the same CR and multiplying it's actions like that makes it effectively higher CR, and thus the easiest method of doing this sort of thing is to use multiple creatures of lower CR. seriously... a group of four level 1 goblin warriors is way more scary than a single level 2 goblin fighter.
Kyuketsukiouji 02-20-06, 07:19 PM	While I haven't looked at the Archivist very closely, I have to admit that I don't like fixed DC abilities like that. They strike me as making things too loopholish. Maybe DC 25 + Charisma Modifier would be a bit saner?