Archivist (Heroes of Horror) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archivist (Heroes of Horror) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
caeruleus
11-07-05, 09:05 PM I love the basic flavor of the archivist in Heroes of Horror. (If you don't have HoH, WotC posted in here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)--you'll have to click on "Archivist" from the page this link takes you to.) It looks like it would make for a great priest of Boccob, or similar deity, outside of a horror-themed campaign.

I'm just not sure about the dark knowledge ability. While the particular monsters that it works with fits well in, say, a Call of Cthulu type of campaign, I'm not sure why the archivist's knowledge would be restricted to just those types of monsters, in a non-horror campaign. So, I'm gonna propose an alternative.

Rather than being able to use dark knowledge on the five creature types listed, the archivst begins at 1st level with the ability to apply dark knowledge to any one creature type of her choice. Every time the archivist gains a new dark knowledge ability (tactics, puissance, etc), she can add one more creature type to use dark knowledge against.

This gives the archivist an advantage in having more options, but also a disadvantage in not getting different options until higher levels (unlike the standard archivist).

I was also thinking of limiting the choice in the same way as the ranger's favored enemy is limited. Namely, you have to select a specific humanoid or outsider, you cannot select them all at once. I'm not sure about this, because the standard archivist can already use dark knowledge against all outsiders (plus a bunch of other creatures) right from 1st level. I'm leaning towards thinking that this limit should apply, however.

Anyway, what do people think of this?

Also, purely for flavor, if it's not being used in a horror campaign, what do you think would be a better-sounding name than "dark knowledge"?
Silverthumb128
11-07-05, 09:06 PM So, in other words, Favored Enemy+Dark Knowledge?
1337 cheese theif
11-07-05, 09:10 PM Not a bad idea you have here I might use it since I think my PCs is considering multiclassing into an archivist...
Ideas for new names for the dark knowledge:
Creature lore...
Creature knowledge...
monster lore...
Exotic mind...
Savage mind...
caeruleus
11-08-05, 12:14 AM So, in other words, Favored Enemy+Dark Knowledge?

No, I'm not giving them favored enemy. Rather than having them start off with a set number of creature types to use dark knowledge with, I'd let them choose one type of creature at 1st level, and then another at every few levels, to a maximum of five. The way the (variant) archivist chooses a creature type is the same way that a ranger chooses a creature type for his favored enemy, but the archivist does not get the favored enemy bonuses.

Not a bad idea you have here I might use it since I think my PCs is considering multiclassing into an archivist...
Ideas for new names for the dark knowledge:
Creature lore...
Creature knowledge...
monster lore...
Exotic mind...
Savage mind...

Thanks for the suggestions. I like creature lore.

What class(es) does your PC have now?

And speaking of multiclassing with the archivist, I think that an archivist/wizard/mystic theurge has a much better flavor than a cleric/wizard/mystic theurge. Both classes use a book to prepare spells with, so it fits well. However, both class use Intelligence (except for the archivist's bonus spells, which come from Wisdom) to cast spells, so I'm wondering how it'll play out. I can see some people saying it'll be unbalanced for this reason.
BadCatMan
11-08-05, 12:50 AM Secret Knowledge
Quirriff
11-08-05, 02:29 AM I love the basic flavor of the archivist in Heroes of Horror. (If you don't have HoH, WotC posted in here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)--you'll have to click on "Archivist" from the page this link takes you to.) It looks like it would make for a great priest of Boccob, or similar deity, outside of a horror-themed campaign.
.........
Also, purely for flavor, if it's not being used in a horror campaign, what do you think would be a better-sounding name than "dark knowledge"?

I agree with you, i'd also say they'd make good priests of Vecna!

Mystical Knowledge

Lore?

Just suggestions on the name change.
Puca
11-08-05, 10:16 AM Wait a minute:
Dark Knowledge can let you make a Religion check to get bonuses on undead, Dungeoneering to get bonuses on aberrations, Planes for outsiders and elementals, and Arcana for magical beasts.*

Thats a lot of damn stuff. No, it isnt everything, but it is a significant percentage of the possible encounters you could face.

If the DM is going to send you up against nothing but monstrous humanoids, then, well, that sucks, but theres a lot of things on that list that you are likely to encounter in any campaign.

If those many creature types are going to be marginalized in a specific campaign, then I think that changing the options (e.g. dropping Dungeoneering/aberrations in exchange for Nature/fey, animals, etc) would be cool.

I think making a special feat for the acrhivist to add to the list he already has would be fine too. What ever bonuses he is able to get through Dark Knowledge are going to be balanced by the fact that theyll only be as effective as the skill points he spends. Even with a high Int, there are only so many areas of knowledge he can max out.

*Knowledge (arcana) also gives knowledge of dragons and constructs. I dont know if those were deliberately excluded from the archivists ability, or if it was an oversight, or what, but Id be inclined to say that they can use their Dark Knowledge on those creatures as well.
Silverthumb128
11-08-05, 02:03 PM I'd let them choose one type of creature at 1st level, and then another at every few levels, to a maximum of five.

I'm not trying to upset you, but you should think about what you're saying before telling me that its not a mix of Dark Knowledge and Favored Enemy. You just said in the sentences following the quote that its "chosen the same way as favored enemy, but you get the Dark Knowledge bonuses."

That doesn't sound like a mix of Dark Knowledge and Favored Enemy to you? :D Hence, my quote.
00_Whupass
11-08-05, 03:00 PM I'm against this. Dark knowledge is about knowing things about creatures that are obscure and therefore also rare to some extent. If you allow this every Archivist will choose humanoid, how much dark and secret knowledge can you find in the back of your mind about humans? Also what knowledge skills would you assign to the other creature types.

If you want to expand the uses of Dark knowledge to other creature types follow the same mechanic as was used in Heroes of Horor, the feat Archivist of Nature allows dark knowledge to apply to giants and fey using knowledge (nature), so a feat for two creature types for dark knowledge, this is probably the best way to handle expanding the purview of dark knowledge.
caeruleus
11-08-05, 09:54 PM I'm not trying to upset you, but you should think about what you're saying before telling me that its not a mix of Dark Knowledge and Favored Enemy. You just said in the sentences following the quote that its "chosen the same way as favored enemy, but you get the Dark Knowledge bonuses."

That doesn't sound like a mix of Dark Knowledge and Favored Enemy to you? :D Hence, my quote.

What you said was "Favored Enemy + Dark Knowledge", which I take to be having both abilities, rather than having a mix of the two.

So yes, I do see it as a mix.
caeruleus
11-08-05, 10:00 PM Dark knowledge is about knowing things about creatures that are obscure and therefore also rare to some extent.

If someone can use obscure knowledge, why can't they use knowledge that is more common? If I have knowledge about, say, elven anatomy and psychology, I can use that against them. It's the same idea with the ranger's favored enemy. The whole idea is to change the flavor of the archivist a bit, so it's not just for horror campaigns.

If you allow this every Archivist will choose humanoid

If this is a problem for the archivist, it's also a problem for the ranger. But the ranger seems fine to me, and not every ranger chooses a type of humanoid.

Also what knowledge skills would you assign to the other creature types.

The standard knowledge skills for each creature type. Read the description of the knowledge skill in the PHB, and you'll see.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
caeruleus 11-07-05, 09:05 PM	I love the basic flavor of the archivist in Heroes of Horror. (If you don't have HoH, WotC posted in here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)--you'll have to click on "Archivist" from the page this link takes you to.) It looks like it would make for a great priest of Boccob, or similar deity, outside of a horror-themed campaign. I'm just not sure about the dark knowledge ability. While the particular monsters that it works with fits well in, say, a Call of Cthulu type of campaign, I'm not sure why the archivist's knowledge would be restricted to just those types of monsters, in a non-horror campaign. So, I'm gonna propose an alternative. Rather than being able to use dark knowledge on the five creature types listed, the archivst begins at 1st level with the ability to apply dark knowledge to any one creature type of her choice. Every time the archivist gains a new dark knowledge ability (tactics, puissance, etc), she can add one more creature type to use dark knowledge against. This gives the archivist an advantage in having more options, but also a disadvantage in not getting different options until higher levels (unlike the standard archivist). I was also thinking of limiting the choice in the same way as the ranger's favored enemy is limited. Namely, you have to select a specific humanoid or outsider, you cannot select them all at once. I'm not sure about this, because the standard archivist can already use dark knowledge against all outsiders (plus a bunch of other creatures) right from 1st level. I'm leaning towards thinking that this limit should apply, however. Anyway, what do people think of this? Also, purely for flavor, if it's not being used in a horror campaign, what do you think would be a better-sounding name than "dark knowledge"?
Silverthumb128 11-07-05, 09:06 PM	So, in other words, Favored Enemy+Dark Knowledge?
1337 cheese theif 11-07-05, 09:10 PM	Not a bad idea you have here I might use it since I think my PCs is considering multiclassing into an archivist... Ideas for new names for the dark knowledge: Creature lore... Creature knowledge... monster lore... Exotic mind... Savage mind...
caeruleus 11-08-05, 12:14 AM	So, in other words, Favored Enemy+Dark Knowledge? No, I'm not giving them favored enemy. Rather than having them start off with a set number of creature types to use dark knowledge with, I'd let them choose one type of creature at 1st level, and then another at every few levels, to a maximum of five. The way the (variant) archivist chooses a creature type is the same way that a ranger chooses a creature type for his favored enemy, but the archivist does not get the favored enemy bonuses. Not a bad idea you have here I might use it since I think my PCs is considering multiclassing into an archivist... Ideas for new names for the dark knowledge: Creature lore... Creature knowledge... monster lore... Exotic mind... Savage mind... Thanks for the suggestions. I like creature lore. What class(es) does your PC have now? And speaking of multiclassing with the archivist, I think that an archivist/wizard/mystic theurge has a much better flavor than a cleric/wizard/mystic theurge. Both classes use a book to prepare spells with, so it fits well. However, both class use Intelligence (except for the archivist's bonus spells, which come from Wisdom) to cast spells, so I'm wondering how it'll play out. I can see some people saying it'll be unbalanced for this reason.
BadCatMan 11-08-05, 12:50 AM	Secret Knowledge
Quirriff 11-08-05, 02:29 AM	I love the basic flavor of the archivist in Heroes of Horror. (If you don't have HoH, WotC posted in here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)--you'll have to click on "Archivist" from the page this link takes you to.) It looks like it would make for a great priest of Boccob, or similar deity, outside of a horror-themed campaign. ......... Also, purely for flavor, if it's not being used in a horror campaign, what do you think would be a better-sounding name than "dark knowledge"? I agree with you, i'd also say they'd make good priests of Vecna! Mystical Knowledge Lore? Just suggestions on the name change.
Puca 11-08-05, 10:16 AM	Wait a minute: Dark Knowledge can let you make a Religion check to get bonuses on undead, Dungeoneering to get bonuses on aberrations, Planes for outsiders and elementals, and Arcana for magical beasts.* Thats a lot of damn stuff. No, it isnt everything, but it is a significant percentage of the possible encounters you could face. If the DM is going to send you up against nothing but monstrous humanoids, then, well, that sucks, but theres a lot of things on that list that you are likely to encounter in any campaign. If those many creature types are going to be marginalized in a specific campaign, then I think that changing the options (e.g. dropping Dungeoneering/aberrations in exchange for Nature/fey, animals, etc) would be cool. I think making a special feat for the acrhivist to add to the list he already has would be fine too. What ever bonuses he is able to get through Dark Knowledge are going to be balanced by the fact that theyll only be as effective as the skill points he spends. Even with a high Int, there are only so many areas of knowledge he can max out. *Knowledge (arcana) also gives knowledge of dragons and constructs. I dont know if those were deliberately excluded from the archivists ability, or if it was an oversight, or what, but Id be inclined to say that they can use their Dark Knowledge on those creatures as well.
Silverthumb128 11-08-05, 02:03 PM	I'd let them choose one type of creature at 1st level, and then another at every few levels, to a maximum of five. I'm not trying to upset you, but you should think about what you're saying before telling me that its not a mix of Dark Knowledge and Favored Enemy. You just said in the sentences following the quote that its "chosen the same way as favored enemy, but you get the Dark Knowledge bonuses." That doesn't sound like a mix of Dark Knowledge and Favored Enemy to you? :D Hence, my quote.
00_Whupass 11-08-05, 03:00 PM	I'm against this. Dark knowledge is about knowing things about creatures that are obscure and therefore also rare to some extent. If you allow this every Archivist will choose humanoid, how much dark and secret knowledge can you find in the back of your mind about humans? Also what knowledge skills would you assign to the other creature types. If you want to expand the uses of Dark knowledge to other creature types follow the same mechanic as was used in Heroes of Horor, the feat Archivist of Nature allows dark knowledge to apply to giants and fey using knowledge (nature), so a feat for two creature types for dark knowledge, this is probably the best way to handle expanding the purview of dark knowledge.
caeruleus 11-08-05, 09:54 PM	I'm not trying to upset you, but you should think about what you're saying before telling me that its not a mix of Dark Knowledge and Favored Enemy. You just said in the sentences following the quote that its "chosen the same way as favored enemy, but you get the Dark Knowledge bonuses." That doesn't sound like a mix of Dark Knowledge and Favored Enemy to you? :D Hence, my quote. What you said was "Favored Enemy + Dark Knowledge", which I take to be having both abilities, rather than having a mix of the two. So yes, I do see it as a mix.
caeruleus 11-08-05, 10:00 PM	Dark knowledge is about knowing things about creatures that are obscure and therefore also rare to some extent. If someone can use obscure knowledge, why can't they use knowledge that is more common? If I have knowledge about, say, elven anatomy and psychology, I can use that against them. It's the same idea with the ranger's favored enemy. The whole idea is to change the flavor of the archivist a bit, so it's not just for horror campaigns. If you allow this every Archivist will choose humanoid If this is a problem for the archivist, it's also a problem for the ranger. But the ranger seems fine to me, and not every ranger chooses a type of humanoid. Also what knowledge skills would you assign to the other creature types. The standard knowledge skills for each creature type. Read the description of the knowledge skill in the PHB, and you'll see.