Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elemental_Elf 01-11-06, 08:40 PM	I just bought the HoH yesterday and personally I have fallen in love with the class. To me, it's awesome and highly unique class. BUT seeing as how I am perhaps a little biased, I wanted to know how you guys feel about the Archivist? Is it a good or bad class? Unique or Old hat?
Schitzophrenia_Manifest 01-11-06, 08:51 PM	1. I've never played one, but from what I've read from the HoH excerpt it seems good. Really good. In fact, I think when Wizards makes DnD 4th edition (or 3.75 or 3.50000001 or whatever) they should just scrap the cleric and replace it with the archivist. 2. Very good class. Flavorful and balanced. 3. Unique as a sitcom about a family who adopted a runaway tuba-playing monkey from the circus. Thus, it's pretty much a divine-casting wizard with loads of cool SQs. Crappy similie aside, I think that the Archivist is a very cool class, and the next time a character of mine gets offed I might consider playing one.
Kresalak 01-11-06, 09:03 PM	Archivist is right up there with Artificier at the level of "OMG!" Which is to say, it's either the best or second best class there is. You see, there are two kinds of spells. Arcane and Divine. Archivists can cast all divine spells. Also note that most Wizard spells can be found on a cleric domain list somewhere. 1/2 BAB? Divine Power. No Turn Undead, so no DMM? One level dip into exorcist, not that you need it. Can't use Wildshape brokeness like a Druid? Cast Polymorph. Remember, anything you can do, an ar(chivist/tificier) can do better.
Daz Vader 01-11-06, 09:04 PM	Simply seeing its abilities kinda make me feel sad. Sad because this thing furthers the philosophy that divine casters are monsters created to own the world. Let me explain: If you have a bit'o'time and money, you can know ANY spell you want. Even arcane ones. You just have to find a scroll with the spell attached to it, and ta-da, spell learned. In that way, this is too much. You have better Hit Dice than wizards, more skills and two good saves. You basically own any spellcasting class just by your abilities. IIRC, the archivist gets bonus feats, buffing abilities as well as a save bonus. Let's compare this to the wizard: Yup, the arcane buddy gets more feats and has a familiar, but... You can have all spells. ALL.And iirc, you have more spells per day too. And more skills, and probably more HP than the bugger anyway. Oh, and his Dark Knowledge abilities (are they named like this?) can make up for some of the bard's song abilities. Yay. You're a better caster than the guy and you can fill his role just as easily. The only thing is that you don't have a medium Bab. Oh gosh, like this couldn't be countered with divine spells (Divine power, Righteous Might, etc. are some examples to get stronger). Maybe I'm off the track, since I don't know the class so well, but it seemed overpowered to me in many ways. It could become worst if you got turn undead from a cleric dip or a PrC, since Divine Metamagic and Divine Spell Power are pretty powerful feats. To conclude, from the little I saw, I was afraid of it. Afraid of a guy who spent most of his life in books and libraries. Wait, wasn't that the objective of Heroes of Horror? ;) Edit: From an above post: Flavorful and balanced Flavored? Ok. Balanced? Yikes. Every single DM I know cried when they saw this class. If its true that the AR-club(ARchivists and ARtificiers) are powerful, I'm glad I'm not into Eberron much... Didn't look at artificier, and probably that I'll never look at it, if it's on the same level as Mr. The Bookman.
Jaxgaret 01-11-06, 09:11 PM	Archivist is right up there with Artificer at the level of "OMG!" Which is to say, it's either the best or second best class there is. *Snip* Remember, anything you can do, an ar(chivist/tificer) can do better. Possibly. Possibly. Damn Kresalak, your sig is awesome. Kudos.
Schitzophrenia_Manifest 01-11-06, 09:12 PM	Okay, first of all they can't cast arcane spells. They can cast any spell on the cleric spell list, and divine spells from other classes only if they find an appropriate scroll. Second of all...er...I guess there isn't a second of all. I just wanted to be nit-picky-esque, I guess. Er...
Jaxgaret 01-11-06, 09:26 PM	Okay, first of all they can't cast arcane spells. They can cast any spell on the cleric spell list, and divine spells from other classes only if they find an appropriate scroll. Second of all...er...I guess there isn't a second of all. I just wanted to be nit-picky-esque, I guess. Er... As was alluded to above, they can gain access to arcane spells off of divine scrolls that have spells from the various clerical domains, which include many spells that are typically from the arcane spell lists.
Schitzophrenia_Manifest 01-11-06, 09:42 PM	*opens and closes mouth* Okay, I guess I forgot about those. Whoops. In that case, disregard the above post of mine. This one too. But not posts I post in the future. Unless I say so. And...
CryoSilver 01-11-06, 09:46 PM	I believe the only real downfall of the class is that your spells' power is tied to Intelligence, while your bonus spells come from Wisdom.
GreatEye 01-11-06, 09:54 PM	I believe the only real downfall of the class is that your spells' power is tied to Intelligence, while your bonus spells come from Wisdom. Does that make Archivist a great class for Mystic Theurge?
Crimson_Concerto 01-11-06, 09:56 PM	Archivist is awesome! :) I love the flavor, though they should have named the class "Occultist" instead. It sounds much cooler, and is a more accurate description. Just remember that you have access to all those healing spells the cleric has, so if you party doesn't have another divine caster, remember to pick those up. Oh, and don't pay attention to people who keep saying that the Archivist (or even Artifacer for that matter) is broken. It takes a lot to make these classes broken, and you might as well call the Wizard broken for the whole Pun-Pun thing. Besides, I've DMed a game including both a Wizard and an Archivist, and there was very little power difference.
sooperspook 01-11-06, 09:58 PM	Just like a wizard must learn spells from scrolls HE finds. Or spellbooks. Or research. But wait! the Archivist can't research or copy from spell books! He can only learn what he finds. Who controls what he finds?Is it the player? NO! It is the DM! The Archivist is only overly powerful IF your DM allows the player to gain any spell they want. As for Divine Metamagic, those feats are overly powerful in and of themselves and have that effect on any divine casting class with TU. Its not limited to the Archivist. Archivist only gets 1 more spell per day per spell level than the wizard. (Cleric gets that plus a domainslot) Archivist relys on 2 stats for spell casting Intelligence - for max spell level and learning spells and save DC's, Wis - for bonus spells. He only gets 2 bonus feats (3 if you count Scribe Scroll) the Archivist is a nice balanced class. Its when you add in undalanced feats (from other non core books) and a permisive DM that things get tricky. (BTW same goes for the Artificer. Most of the problems with over powering that class come from allowing any and all feat/spell/magic item without considering the implications and not from the class itself.)
Jaime_Wolf 01-11-06, 10:13 PM	The class is another example where a DM must be considered among the balancing factors. For balance, this class has to rely on a DM who won't give the player access to a wealth of scrolls. Like anything else in D&D, you can break an Archivist, perhaps more easily, and thus it needs more attention, but it isn't inherently broken. Also, the problems don't really arise unless a player tries to exploit the class, and any player that does that isn't a very good player in a team-oriented game such as D&D, at least not in my mind.
Daz Vader 01-11-06, 10:18 PM	Reading other posts from people who apparently played more archivists than me (that being 0...), it seems it can be balanced... if you restrict it. Restrict it to finding scrolls who aren't abusive, or feats that are already powerful... What I don't like is that it can, with some creativity, become more powerful than other core classes. Of course, my example was with the bard, but bards aren't any good in specialization, since they basically are everything... And it's not uncommon for core classes to be stronger than their Core Comrades... BUT! *Insert dramatic sounds* Still, one must admit that by the class' description, it can actually become a Wizard... Only Dm-restricting can stop that. He could, basically, buy every spell he wants with enough money. That's what tickles my brain... And tickling my brain is not a good thing... I could go in a chaotic surge and destroy Earth. :evillaugh Ahem! For the OP! Be sure to familiarize your DM with the class, and don't try to abuse the almighty power of librarians, for the sake of game-balance! If your DM is bright, he shall prevent you from completely dominating the world! :plotting: (Gosh, I need to sleep...) :)
Elemental_Elf 01-11-06, 10:51 PM	I would never abuse any class, most esspecially one I like. Also People complain about how expensive it is to be a Wizard, the Archivist can only be worse. Also people have to remember that the Cleric is still more powerful. Sure the Archivist can learn new spells BUT the Cleric has immediate access to 90% of all the Cleric Spells out there. No need to learn them, he simply knows them. Also let's not forget that the cleric is better in combat and has Domains spells PLUS Turn/Rebuke undead. The Archivist has none of that. Personally I feel the Archivit is powerful but not nearly so much as the Cleric and the Druid. I consider the Archivist to be on par with the Spirit Shamen more then any otehr class. They are both balanced and fun yet are obviously more specialized and weaker then classes that do a comparable job.
__Slayer__ 01-11-06, 11:29 PM	One word: Overpowered
Dhavaer 01-11-06, 11:33 PM	Possibly. Possibly. Damn Kresalak, your sig is awesome. Kudos. As soon as I read this post, I went to read his sig. I'm in there. SWEET! I'm in someone's sig, albeit as the straight man.
Crimson_Concerto 01-11-06, 11:36 PM	One word: Overpowered Only if you think the Artifacer, Wizard, Druid, and Cleric are overpowered...
Elemental_Elf 01-11-06, 11:38 PM	One word: Overpowered Instead of 1 word, how about 1 paragraph explaining why it is overpowered.
legowarrior 01-12-06, 04:24 AM	One Word: Explain.
Lotus Crane 01-12-06, 04:36 AM	One Word: Explain. WTF OMG LOLZ! ^_~ Well, I think the Archivist is overpowered too, even more so than the druid and cleric, which I both nerfed in my Re-Balanced versions. I'm busy working on something else (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=561460&page=1&pp=30) though, so I'll leave it to the others to explain.
a_psh 01-12-06, 05:02 AM	The archivist is undeniably broken if you allow, say, the Spells domain in your game. Y'know what else is undeniably broken if you throw in crazy domains like that? Clerics. If you idea of "divine spell" is anything in any book, it's total cheese. If your idea of "divine spell" is the PHB lists and a few random ones from other sources, I don't see that many potential archivist issues. Assuming that everything else in the world is fit for inclusion into a D&D game and deciding that the archivist is broken based on that is not a good way to actually measure the quality and power of the archivist.
runestar 01-12-06, 07:13 AM	If your dm allows you access to sources of the lowest lv version of each spell(like heal spell scribed by an adept etc), and/or domain spells, then its broken. If cross-list spell acess is extremely restriction, it may still be balanced.
Yogo 01-12-06, 09:48 AM	How often do you find a Scroll with a divine Fireball on it? Not pretty often I think. Originally Arcane Domain Spells on Scrolls isn't something, at least in my opinion, that can be bought anywhere. If you let him read/learn Arcane Scrolls then there is the possibility that this class becomes horribly broken...
RunningWilder 01-12-06, 09:49 AM	The archivist is undeniably broken if you allow, say, the Spells domain in your game. Y'know what else is undeniably broken if you throw in crazy domains like that? Clerics. The "broken" parts of the Spells domain (Anyspell and Greater Anyspell) are utterly useless to an archivist. The spells don't let you memorize a divine version of an arcane spell, it fills the divine slot with an arcane spell and allows you to cast it. So he can't start "converting" arcane spells into divine ones and copying them into his spellbook. Also, the spells only work for characters who have a domain slot to fill the spell with. The only thing that can allow the archivist to use Anyspell is the Initiate of Mystra feat, which requires at least 3 cleric levels and that the archivist follow the will of a Neutral Good goddess. The feat becomes useless if he would lose his spells.
RunningWilder 01-12-06, 09:53 AM	How often do you find a Scroll with a divine Fireball on it? Not pretty often I think. Originally Arcane Domain Spells on Scrolls isn't something, at least in my opinion, that can be bought anywhere. If you let him read/learn Arcane Scrolls then there is the possibility that this class becomes horribly broken... Bingo. If a DM is paying attention, he'd realize that domain spells are something that their god only gives to them and that other deities cannot hand out. What cleric is going to hand out those spells to an unbeliever who can't use it anyway, or to an unbeliever who can undermine their god's gift?
legowarrior 01-12-06, 10:10 AM	Quick question, are adepts considered divine spellcasters? I don't have the book with me, so I don't know.
Elemental_Elf 01-12-06, 01:03 PM	The "broken" parts of the Spells domain (Anyspell and Greater Anyspell) are utterly useless to an archivist. The spells don't let you memorize a divine version of an arcane spell, it fills the divine slot with an arcane spell and allows you to cast it. So he can't start "converting" arcane spells into divine ones and copying them into his spellbook. Also, the spells only work for characters who have a domain slot to fill the spell with. The only thing that can allow the archivist to use Anyspell is the Initiate of Mystra feat, which requires at least 3 cleric levels and that the archivist follow the will of a Neutral Good goddess. The feat becomes useless if he would lose his spells. That's exactly what I was thinking, which is why I couldn't understand the other posters here.
a_psh 01-12-06, 01:19 PM	The "broken" parts of the Spells domain (Anyspell and Greater Anyspell) are utterly useless to an archivist. The spells don't let you memorize a divine version of an arcane spell, it fills the divine slot with an arcane spell and allows you to cast it. So he can't start "converting" arcane spells into divine ones and copying them into his spellbook. Also, the spells only work for characters who have a domain slot to fill the spell with.That's what I get for referencing a book I haven't read in at least a year. Thanks for the correction! I'm still sticking with my general point, though: splatbooks break archivists.
sooperspook 01-12-06, 07:21 PM	Maybe, but then splatbooks break practicaly anything! :D Hmm now that I come to think about it, has there ever been a splatbook that didnt contain some feat, spell or magic item that just shattered a classes balance? maybe thats why they're called splatbooks... Game balance *SPLAT* :P
General_Ridley 01-12-06, 08:10 PM	Quick question, are adepts considered divine spellcasters? I don't have the book with me, so I don't know. yup. good ol' DMG.
Milo HoBo 01-12-06, 10:10 PM	Let's say that an archavist gets his hands on a domain only spell. Something like Identify,from the knowledge? domain. He may cast this spell in every slot he has of 2nd level or higher with no expensive material component. Clerics of knowledge do not have this ability, they are limited by their domains and 1 domain slot per spell level. That is pretty uber. And why does an archavist need to be better set than a wizard anyways? The divine spell lists have more cheese.
RunningWilder 01-12-06, 10:36 PM	Let's say that an archavist gets his hands on a domain only spell. Something like Identify,from the knowledge? domain. He may cast this spell in every slot he has of 2nd level or higher with no expensive material component. Clerics of knowledge do not have this ability, they are limited by their domains and 1 domain slot per spell level. That is pretty uber. And why does an archavist need to be better set than a wizard anyways? The divine spell lists have more cheese. The trade off comes from having to spend a second level slot instead of a first level one. Is it cheesy? Yes. Does it break the class. No. You also have to remember that he needs to find someone to sell him the scroll, and I don't see too many religions being happy with people who subvert their god's gifts.
a_psh 01-13-06, 12:15 AM	Also, that's a bad example because the archivist did all this work and got... identify. Being able to cast identify really isn't stepping on anyone's toes. Honestly, unless the archivist can actually get most of the arcane standbys - multi-target direct damage, high-powered ranged save-or-die effects, polymorph cheese, powerful battlefield control like web - instead of just a handful of random wizard spells that are already accessible to clerics, I think it's hard to argue that his spell list is really worlds better than a cleric's. And, without using a lot of very questionable and completely optional content, I just don't see this happening.
RadicalTaoist 01-13-06, 12:27 AM	The thing is, just core he has the Druid spell list (Shapechange, Animal Shapes, the Summon Nature's Ally series, and more), the Paladin spell list (healing spells like the Restoration series at lower levels, Holy Sword, and more), the Ranger spell list (Lion's Charge, good scouting spells), and the Adept spell list (Polymorph, Fireball, and more). At the very best he renders the Mystic Theurge nearly obsolete and is as balanced as a Cleric (which is to say, not much).
RunningWilder 01-13-06, 01:10 AM	The thing is, just core he has the Druid spell list (Shapechange, Animal Shapes, the Summon Nature's Ally series, and more), the Paladin spell list (healing spells like the Restoration series at lower levels, Holy Sword, and more), the Ranger spell list (Lion's Charge, good scouting spells), and the Adept spell list (Polymorph, Fireball, and more). At the very best he renders the Mystic Theurge nearly obsolete and is as balanced as a Cleric (which is to say, not much). A properly played divine caster won't be as free with handing out scrolls if they're giving away their god's power to a heathen. Ask yourself how often you've seen divine scrolls of those particular spells in treasure (especially fireball, polymorph, holy sword) and you'll realize how And how many rangers and paladins take scribe scroll? You can make an arguement that they only need to "provide the archivist with the spell" for him to make his own scroll, but I believe that requires them to stay with him during the creation process. Character's with the really good spells usually have better things to do than hang around with some guy and correct his spelling and grammar all day. Rangers and druids have forests to protect and nasty things to hunt. Clerics have a duty to their god and paladins have a strick code and aren't going to hand out their holy abilities if there is even a chance of their misuse. And if the archivist is getting the spell from another party member they aren't stealing their thunder, they're increasing the group's tactics. He can't fit all spellcasting roles at once but being able to have two people to the same spell can be a boon sometimes. Th archivist makes a good support unit, shoring up the party where they need it. In the hands of a selfish player and an incompetent DM, there can be trouble, but that can be said for every class.
nastynate 01-13-06, 01:35 AM	Chameleon and anyspell present serious problems where archivists are concerned. Being able to conjure up whatever spell you want to add to your prayer book makes the archivist pretty busted. And as someone posted previously, a single level dip into sacred exorcist can open up the divine metamagic broken-ness which is well known and grossly overpowered. not to mention their dark knowledge abilities, which are pretty decent too. An archivist can easily trump a wizard or cleric in power, and wizards and clerics are no slouches. Sure it can be controlled to an extent, which is the saving grace of an archivist, but what other base class needs DM intervention to keep it from going bonkers? No other base class comes close to the archivist in raw power, and that says something. They really are like mystic theurges from level one on, but with better HD, caster level, and more class features. Archivists are dang powerful.
RadicalTaoist 01-13-06, 04:35 AM	A properly played divine caster won't be as free with handing out scrolls if they're giving away their god's power to a heathen.So befriend divine casters with your faith. Ask yourself how often you've seen divine scrolls of those particular spells in treasure (especially fireball, polymorph, holy sword) and you'll realize howRandom chance. Equal odds of it appearing as any other scroll. Not likely, true, but as you indicate there are ways And how many rangers and paladins take scribe scroll?They do not need to, because: You can make an arguement that they only need to "provide the archivist with the spell" for him to make his own scroll,There are actually rules for this. but I believe that requires them to stay with him during the creation process. Character's with the really good spells usually have better things to do than hang around with some guy and correct his spelling and grammar all day.Again, befriend NPCs of your faith. And/or pay them as per the DMG and PHB guidelines for day's service/buying spellcasting. Rangers and druids have forests to protect and nasty things to hunt. Clerics have a duty to their god and paladins have a strick code and aren't going to hand out their holy abilities if there is even a chance of their misuse. And if the archivist swears to use his power to help these NPCs' causes, and will be powerful enough to do so and do so well? 'Roleplaying balances a class' is a double-edged sword. And if the archivist is getting the spell from another party member they aren't stealing their thunder, they're increasing the group's tactics. He can't fit all spellcasting roles at once but being able to have two people to the same spell can be a boon sometimes. Usually teamwork doesn't involve one member of the team becoming near-obsolete as his abilities are copied over into a more versatile member. Th archivist makes a good support unit, shoring up the party where they need it.He makes a good support unit like the Cleric makes a good support unit. In the hands of a selfish player and an incompetent DM, there can be trouble, but that can be said for every class. Hardly. At the high levels the selfish players know better than to play, say, Fighters or Monks or Warlocks. They'll get smacked down. If the class were truly balanced, selfish players would use something else to wreck games. They don't need to. The Archivist serves fine. I apologize, but when two different Archivists can reach radically different levels of power based on their friends and how they are roleplayed, then there is a balance problem, and the Archivist is no lightweight with just the Cleric spell list and Archivist class features either. There is such a thing as too many options. The Archivist has just that.
tunagolem 01-13-06, 05:11 AM	Equal odds of it appearing as any other scroll. Not likely, true, but as you indicate there are ways It's 30% for divine. About a third of that is domains. About half of that is arcane. 5%.
Seeker of Undeath 01-13-06, 05:14 AM	Sure it can be controlled to an extent, which is the saving grace of an archivist, but what other base class needs DM intervention to keep it from going bonkers? No other base class comes close to the archivist in raw power, and that says something.Artificer
RunningWilder 01-13-06, 09:23 AM	Chameleon and anyspell present serious problems where archivists are concerned. Being able to conjure up whatever spell you want to add to your prayer book makes the archivist pretty busted. And as someone posted previously, a single level dip into sacred exorcist can open up the divine metamagic broken-ness which is well known and grossly overpowered. not to mention their dark knowledge abilities, which are pretty decent too. An archivist can easily trump a wizard or cleric in power, and wizards and clerics are no slouches. Sure it can be controlled to an extent, which is the saving grace of an archivist, but what other base class needs DM intervention to keep it from going bonkers? No other base class comes close to the archivist in raw power, and that says something. They really are like mystic theurges from level one on, but with better HD, caster level, and more class features. Archivists are dang powerful. You still seem to be putting forward Anyspell as an Archivist breaker. Care to read over my above post and explain why it's still a problem? In fact, the chamelon doesn't get a domain spell, so it won't work for them either. Half the problems with archivists is purposeful misreading of the rules.
Seeker of Undeath 01-13-06, 09:46 AM	In fact, the chamelon doesn't get a domain spell, so it won't work for them either. Half the problems with archivists is purposeful misreading of the rules.I think the issue with chameleon is the same as that of using it with a Wizard. The rotating feat used for multiple, different Extra Spell feats is troublesome. With a Sorcerer or some other such class, it's as simple as 'no feat, no spell'. But with Wizards and Archivists who record such things, it's a lot harder to explain the disappearance of the spell. Of course I simply told my players about this cheese up front and said "not in my games."
Pazu 01-13-06, 10:13 PM	So befriend divine casters with your faith. Which would give you potential access to a certain number of domain spells, while most likely excluding you from others. After all, you're not likely to be able to befriend a cleric of Pelor and a cleric of Tharizdun simultaneously. Random chance. Equal odds of it appearing as any other scroll. Not likely, true, but as you indicate there are ways Can you point me to a source on this? In the random scroll tables in my DMG, I don't see any domain spells listed that aren't also "regular" divine spells of some sort, so I don't see how they're just as likely to turn up as any other spell. There are actually rules for this. (Referring to a second party providing spells for someone else to scribe into scrolls.) Again, can you tell me where the rules are for this? I'm not necessarily disputing your claim, since I can't pretend I know all the rules backwards and forwards, but everything I've found on scribing scrolls says that the scribe has to know the spell in question. Again, befriend NPCs of your faith. And/or pay them as per the DMG and PHB guidelines for day's service/buying spellcasting. And if the archivist swears to use his power to help these NPCs' causes, and will be powerful enough to do so and do so well? 'Roleplaying balances a class' is a double-edged sword. Not everyone should be freely available for hire, and being devout enough to swear devotion to one NPC cleric's cause will necessarily exclude an archivist from doing to same for clerics of many other deities (can't serve Corellon Larethian and Gruumsh at the same time), thereby limiting their potential access to domain spells.
Pazu 01-13-06, 10:19 PM	It's 30% for divine. About a third of that is domains. About half of that is arcane. 5%. :confused: Help me out here; I see where the DMG lists the chances of finding arcane vs. divine scrolls (30%), but as far as I could tell, there are no domain spells on the divine scroll list that aren't also "regular" divine spells. (Although I do note that the paladin-only spell holy sword does appear.) To me, that suggests that the appearance of a non-standard-clerical domain spell on a random scroll is exceedingly unlikely, and something that should be deliberately placed (or not) by the DM.
Pazu 01-13-06, 10:47 PM	The thing is, just core he has the Druid spell list (Shapechange, Animal Shapes, the Summon Nature's Ally series, and more), the Paladin spell list (healing spells like the Restoration series at lower levels, Holy Sword, and more), the Ranger spell list (Lion's Charge, good scouting spells), and the Adept spell list (Polymorph, Fireball, and more). At the very best he renders the Mystic Theurge nearly obsolete and is as balanced as a Cleric (which is to say, not much). Well, I would say that he has potential access to these spells (although adepts don't get fireball), but consider, by way of example: - There are about 20 2nd-level druid spells in the PHB that are not also on the cleric list. - By the DMG, each 2nd-level divine spell has a market price of 150 gp (more or less) on a scroll (pp. 241-242). - This means that a 3rd level archivist needs to shell out 3000 gp in an open druidic literature market to get ahold of these 20 spells. This also doesn't take into account the various clerical scrolls he's also looking for, since he can only pick two free spells per level. - By the DMG, the average wealth of a 3rd level character is 2700 gp (p. 135, coincidentally following this sentence: "One of the ways in which you can maintain measurable control on PC power is by strictly monitoring their wealth, including their magic items.") So, even if he doesn't spend money on anything else (armor, weapons, etc.), he still doesn't have enough to cover that cost. The situation only gets worse (for the archivist) when you add in all the non-clerical spells in the splatbooks.
RunningWilder 01-14-06, 10:09 AM	Obsolete means that something no longer has any use because something new can do the job better. There is no way for an archivist to make a wizard obsolete because he cannot fill all the roles the party needs at once. If archivist chooses a battle array of spells, the wizard chooses utility. If the archivist chooses agressive, the wizard chooses defensive. It goes the other way too. The archivist has as many spells per day as a wizard so there is no way to fill up every possible role a spellcaster can take effectively. This helps with tactics because the two spellcasters can work together to figure out how to approach the day, and even set up so that they have a similar battery of spells if they expect a lot of a particular enemy. If the cleric didn't make the wizard obsolete, the archivist sure isn't going to do it. Divine casters are powerful, but people seem to assume that they should be run on the same principles as builds from the optimization boards. That there is no such thing as DM involvement. Divine casters, unlike every other class, answer to a higher power and can lose their class abilities for improper behavior. (The following works for both archivists and Use Magic Device.) Think about it. A paladin is held to an extremely strick set of guidelines. His every action must work within these bounds and it can be a daily struggle to live up to the expectations. As a reward, his god gives him magical powers, including a number of spells which he had to work very hard to get. So then a friend of his (and the religion) comes forward and asks to buy a scroll of the paladin's Holy Sword spell, or have the paladin help him create it. He's a nice guy, but his faith isn't what it could be. After all, the paladin's god has not seen fit to grant the him any powers whatsoever. What right does the paladin have to grant the spell to his friend? It is a divine gift that he is only allowed through strick adherence to a code of honor and the grace of his faith, things which his friend is not bound by. The paladin could not abuse his gifts without retribution, but the friend could. If the god has not seen the friend to be worthy of such a gift, how can the paladin declare himself to know better? This goes for clerics as well. If the god wanted the friend to have such power, he would have given them to him. Why would a ranger or druid hand over nature's power to a city dweller who barely knows the difference between seasons? The other classes work long and hard for their abilities and lose them if they slip up. They have to answer to a higher power which decides who to grant power to. It's like working in a research lab. You can't start showing someone the classified stuff just because he's well liked. If the guy in charge wants him to see that stuff, he'll let him in.
teclis 01-14-06, 10:34 AM	hypothetical situation: in a world where there are no shops selling magical items, yay, even scrolls have to be hunted down individualy, and where rightous might and divine power have been signifigantly nerfed, would the archivist be balanced? balanced to what? the cleric? the wizard? the fighter?
RadicalTaoist 01-14-06, 11:40 AM	Which would give you potential access to a certain number of domain spells, while most likely excluding you from others. After all, you're not likely to be able to befriend a cleric of Pelor and a cleric of Tharizdun simultaneously. At this point one has to wonder how many scrolls and friends the Archivist needs. They will certainly have more than enough. Can you point me to a source on this? In the random scroll tables in my DMG, I don't see any domain spells listed that aren't also "regular" divine spells of some sort, so I don't see how they're just as likely to turn up as any other spell. I was just stating that "the luck of the draw" is a flaw applying to any item-dependent tactic. It's not like divine scrolls are far less likely to appear than any other kind of magic item. Even if they were, it's kind of a moot point since we'll go for magic item acquisition anyway, whether by crafting, or bound Djini wishes, or so on... (Referring to a second party providing spells for someone else to scribe into scrolls.) Again, can you tell me where the rules are for this? I'm not necessarily disputing your claim, since I can't pretend I know all the rules backwards and forwards, but everything I've found on scribing scrolls says that the scribe has to know the spell in question. 3.5 DMG 282, second paragraph of the Crafting Magic Items section. Not everyone should be freely available for hire, and being devout enough to swear devotion to one NPC cleric's cause will necessarily exclude an archivist from doing to same for clerics of many other deities (can't serve Corellon Larethian and Gruumsh at the same time), thereby limiting their potential access to domain spells. Fortunately, many domains are weaker than others, and many provide spells that are on the Cleric list anyways. Just access to the base druid spell list and the adept list alone puts an archivist way ahead, and it's not likely that every druid and adept on the planet hates your guts. Well, I would say that he has potential access to these spells (although adepts don't get fireball), but consider, by way of example: - There are about 20 2nd-level druid spells in the PHB that are not also on the cleric list. - By the DMG, each 2nd-level divine spell has a market price of 150 gp (more or less) on a scroll (pp. 241-242). - This means that a 3rd level archivist needs to shell out 3000 gp in an open druidic literature market to get ahold of these 20 spells. This also doesn't take into account the various clerical scrolls he's also looking for, since he can only pick two free spells per level. - By the DMG, the average wealth of a 3rd level character is 2700 gp (p. 135, coincidentally following this sentence: "One of the ways in which you can maintain measurable control on PC power is by strictly monitoring their wealth, including their magic items.") So, even if he doesn't spend money on anything else (armor, weapons, etc.), he still doesn't have enough to cover that cost. The situation only gets worse (for the archivist) when you add in all the non-clerical spells in the splatbooks. The question is: do you really need all of them? Just Entangle, the SNA's, and Barkskin, and some more noncore stuff if it's allowed. Voila - you're well ahead of the cleric in spell options. 5-10 spell options from whatever list you like per level, if you can pick and choose, is plenty. The Archivist can pick and choose. The archivist has as many spells per day as a wizard so there is no way to fill up every possible role a spellcaster can take effectively. This helps with tactics because the two spellcasters can work together to figure out how to approach the day, and even set up so that they have a similar battery of spells if they expect a lot of a particular enemy. If the cleric didn't make the wizard obsolete, the archivist sure isn't going to do it. The Archivist has as many spell slots per day as a specialist wizard with no loss in options. The Archivist will not make the crazy twinked wizard obsolete. But that's not a good balance guideline. "Oh, it's okay, a wizard can abuse every spell on their list and the abilities of several PrCs five ways to Sunday and stay on top!" When a wizard can do that, he's practically a party in himself Divine casters are powerful, but people seem to assume that they should be run on the same principles as builds from the optimization boards. That there is no such thing as DM involvement. Divine casters, unlike every other class, answer to a higher power and can lose their class abilities for improper behavior. (The following works for both archivists and Use Magic Device.) Not only is this the Oberoni Fallacy, this is not even in the guidelines. Nothing says the Gods cut archivists and UMD users off. They have to go out of their way to smite these people. And "Gods have to hate these guys in order for them to be balanced" is not a good balance guideline. Think about it. A paladin is held to an extremely strick set of guidelines. His every action must work within these bounds and it can be a daily struggle to live up to the expectations. As a reward, his god gives him magical powers, including a number of spells which he had to work very hard to get. So then a friend of his (and the religion) comes forward and asks to buy a scroll of the paladin's Holy Sword spell, or have the paladin help him create it. He's a nice guy, but his faith isn't what it could be. After all, the paladin's god has not seen fit to grant the him any powers whatsoever. What right does the paladin have to grant the spell to his friend? It is a divine gift that he is only allowed through strick adherence to a code of honor and the grace of his faith, things which his friend is not bound by. The paladin could not abuse his gifts without retribution, but the friend could. If the god has not seen the friend to be worthy of such a gift, how can the paladin declare himself to know better? This goes for clerics as well. If the god wanted the friend to have such power, he would have given them to him. Why would a ranger or druid hand over nature's power to a city dweller who barely knows the difference between seasons? The other classes work long and hard for their abilities and lose them if they slip up. They have to answer to a higher power which decides who to grant power to. It's like working in a research lab. You can't start showing someone the classified stuff just because he's well liked. If the guy in charge wants him to see that stuff, he'll let him in. This remains a sign of imbalance. The archivist who has sold the Fochlucan College a little extra information on the side and helped the Peloran Crusade reclaim their temple is all of a sudden much more powerful than the archivist who isn't. What the hell kind of class is balanced depending on you having no friends? This is like the clerics are commanded to heal by their gods argument - it falls apart under the god of battle. Oberoni Fallacy, friends.
Pazu 01-14-06, 01:57 PM	At this point one has to wonder how many scrolls and friends the Archivist needs. They will certainly have more than enough. I suppose it depends on which spells in particular you're angling for. A domain that provides a kick-ass third level spell might not give you much interesting for levels 4 and 6, and you may have logically excluded yourself from the best domain spells for those levels. I was just stating that "the luck of the draw" is a flaw applying to any item-dependent tactic. It's not like divine scrolls are far less likely to appear than any other kind of magic item. Even if they were, it's kind of a moot point since we'll go for magic item acquisition anyway, whether by crafting, or bound Djini wishes, or so on... Well, we know that divine scrolls are less than half as likely to be found compared to arcane scrolls, and that normally non-clerical domain spells don't seem to be found at all (by random chance). 3.5 DMG 282, second paragraph of the Crafting Magic Items section. That's an interesting line. I wish they had expanded on it a bit more, since it doesn't make much sense to me for purposes of scroll scribing, but whatever, I'll concede that point. Fortunately, many domains are weaker than others, and many provide spells that are on the Cleric list anyways. Just access to the base druid spell list and the adept list alone puts an archivist way ahead, and it's not likely that every druid and adept on the planet hates your guts. The question is: do you really need all of them? Just Entangle, the SNA's, and Barkskin, and some more noncore stuff if it's allowed. Voila - you're well ahead of the cleric in spell options. 5-10 spell options from whatever list you like per level, if you can pick and choose, is plenty. The Archivist can pick and choose. Of course, a cleric with the Animal and Plant domains also has access to Entangle, (some) SNA's, and Barkskin, as well as true full access to the main cleric list. ;) But let's steer clear of the campaign-dependent roleplaying considerations, since in general I agree that mechanics shouldn't be balanced by roleplaying restrictions. So let's run with the idea of the best 5-10 spells per level, freely selected, from any divine caster's list. At third level, the archivist gains access to 2nd-level spells. He picks his two free spells from the cleric list. Between equipment and supplies, we'll say that he has budgeted most of his character wealth (2700 gp for a third level character) for acquiring and scribing spells: for 2450 gp, he can buy 7 2nd-level scrolls and scribe them into his prayerbook (7 x 150 gp purchase price + 7 x 200 gp scribing costs). So he'll have a total of nine 2nd-level spells, two from the cleric list and seven from wherever. There are 32 2nd-level cleric spells in the PHB alone, not counting domain spells, and another 20 2nd-level druid spells in the PHB that aren't also on the cleric list. The adept list contains another 4 2nd-level spells that aren't on the cleric or druid lists. So, a total of 56 spells, of which the archivist knows 9. He can only cast 2 (say 3, since we'll assume he has a decent Wisdom) per day, and has to prepare them beforehand. He can't spontaneously convert them to healing, inflicting, or summoning spells unless he's taken the relevant feats (and even then, he's limited by his Wisdom modifier). Are there really only nine spells out of this list of 56 that are worthwhile? The Archivist has as many spell slots per day as a specialist wizard with no loss in options. The Archivist will not make the crazy twinked wizard obsolete. But that's not a good balance guideline. "Oh, it's okay, a wizard can abuse every spell on their list and the abilities of several PrCs five ways to Sunday and stay on top!" When a wizard can do that, he's practically a party in himself There are still a great number of spells that appear only on the sorceror/wizard lists (unless the Spell Compendium changed that; I don't have the book). Not only is this the Oberoni Fallacy, this is not even in the guidelines. Nothing says the Gods cut archivists and UMD users off. They have to go out of their way to smite these people. And "Gods have to hate these guys in order for them to be balanced" is not a good balance guideline. This remains a sign of imbalance. The archivist who has sold the Fochlucan College a little extra information on the side and helped the Peloran Crusade reclaim their temple is all of a sudden much more powerful than the archivist who isn't. What the hell kind of class is balanced depending on you having no friends? This is like the clerics are commanded to heal by their gods argument - it falls apart under the god of battle. Oberoni Fallacy, friends. I have no idea what the Oberoni Fallacy is, but your examples smack of Monty Haul DMing to me. The archivist sells the Fochlucans a little extra information? Well, he's been paid for it, so why should we also give him free access to the druidic library? Or, if he's going to be paid in information, fine, give him access to a number of scrolls that's a) equal in value to the information's worth in gp and b) isn't out of bounds for a typical adventuring reward for that level. Otherwise, it's like complaining that your 5th-level fighter is overpowered because he can make perfectly good use of that +3 shocking burst wounding longsword the Fochlucan college gave him for his loyal service as a bodyguard. I see the process of spell acquisition for wizards and archivists as a subset of the general wealth acquisition for all characters. Free access to 20 2nd level spells is a reward worth 3000 gp, regardless of whether or not the character wants all 20 of them. Or should a captured spellbook only be worth whatever spells are in it that the wizard doesn't already know? [Edit: Fixed coding]
RunningWilder 01-14-06, 02:35 PM	The Archivist has as many spell slots per day as a specialist wizard with no loss in options. The Archivist will not make the crazy twinked wizard obsolete. But that's not a good balance guideline. "Oh, it's okay, a wizard can abuse every spell on their list and the abilities of several PrCs five ways to Sunday and stay on top!" When a wizard can do that, he's practically a party in himself Having the potential to do something isn't the same as being able to do it. I'm sure that there are more than enough cracked combinations created through use of the wizard class, after all. Perhaps you can descibe some of the in-game situations that proved how broken the archivist is? Not only is this the Oberoni Fallacy, this is not even in the guidelines. Nothing says the Gods cut archivists and UMD users off. They have to go out of their way to smite these people. And "Gods have to hate these guys in order for them to be balanced" is not a good balance guideline. Have you bothered reading the description of the archivist? It says that they have poor relations with divine casters. Nothing says they have to go out of the way to smite archivist, just that they don't have to make it easy for them to get their spells. As for not in the guidelines, show where in the guidelines it says that a wizard is not allowed to research an arcane version of Cure light wounds, or Flamestrike, or Divine Might. Just a page number. This remains a sign of imbalance. The archivist who has sold the Fochlucan College a little extra information on the side and helped the Peloran Crusade reclaim their temple is all of a sudden much more powerful than the archivist who isn't. What the hell kind of class is balanced depending on you having no friends? This is like the clerics are commanded to heal by their gods argument - it falls apart under the god of battle. Oberoni Fallacy, friends. I suggest you read over what I wrote again. My point is that if you stop meta-game thinking you'd realize that divine casters aren't going to hand over their god's spells over to someone who can use it without the same connection between priest/deity. It cheapens their gift and allows some unique spells (such as a paladin's holy sword) to be used without the God's blessings. There is a reason that archivists are described as having poor relations with divine casters and why they have to search in tombs and lost libraries for their spells. Maybe they'll get a spell or two for really helping out a group, but that's not really going to break anything. And if you actually think about it, a wizard who helped the Royal library fight off the orc invasion of 1352 and defeated the dread enchanter Deros is going to be more powerful than a wizard who hasn't. It's the nature of the game that the more you do, the more allies you gain, the better you do. Just because you call it an oberani fallacy doesn't mean it is. Edit: And just because he helps an organization doesn't mean they'll let him clear them out. Maybe they'll give him a spell or two for all his work, but they aren't going to let him run rampant with demands.
Dark Voivode 01-14-06, 04:40 PM	I'm actually thinking of using the Archivist to replace the cleric. This would mean that you'd have to choose a deity in order to get access to spells and would automatically be aligned against various other churches.
DM Denubis 01-14-06, 05:19 PM	Just a thought. When we have to talk about DM intervention to not allow a caster to get his hands on scrolls, don't you think there's a problem? I can't remember the last time I had to tell people "No, you can't have such and such magic item." A Paladin cheapening their god's gifts? Interesting, considering paladins get their spells from the power of law and good. Balance-wise, this class is a joke. Roleplaying and DM intervention are NOT arguments to be used to say the class isn't overpowered. That's like saying clerics are balanced because of alignment restrictions. It's a JOKE.
legowarrior 01-14-06, 05:26 PM	Personally, it sounds like the split in requirements for spell casting is a huge Minus. Also, Wizards have to buy spells, and their spells are supposed to be more powerful. I figure, whatever stop Wizards from getting access to all spells possible should pretty much help out in stopping the Archivist. On top of that, aren't most domain spells that are also Wizard spells one level Higher. Take Fireball, isn't that a 4 level spell in the Fire Domain? Please, I've only seen it online, so I could be wrong, correct me if I am.
RunningWilder 01-14-06, 06:26 PM	Just a thought. When we have to talk about DM intervention to not allow a caster to get his hands on scrolls, don't you think there's a problem? I can't remember the last time I had to tell people "No, you can't have such and such magic item." Whenever someone asks for an artifact? It isn't DM intervention to play a group the way logic would suggest. The king doesn't give a rogue everything in his treasury because they're on good terms or because the rogue helped him. Or, to be a little less extreme, the archmage doesn't hand over everything in his spell books just because an apprentice performed a service. What is DM intervention? If a fighter says that he wants to fight some orcs next, and ends up fighting Goblins, is that DM intervention? If a player is in a thorp and can't by the 9th level spells he wants, is that DM intervention? No, they're simply playing what was planned and what makes sense. A Paladin cheapening their god's gifts? Interesting, considering paladins get their spells from the power of law and good. Depends on the setting, but the idea still remains. The paladin can't cast holy sword until he is at least 14th level. It took him a long time to earn the right and ability to use it, not just through his actions but by his devotion and self-dsicipline. And now he's going to hand that over to a kid who has none of that? Who doesn't even have the devotion to justice to sense evil? What if the player said "I want to buy his sword/armor/horse"? Would your paladin really say "Sure!" or would he say that he needs them to fight evil? Why would he be willing to spend a day hanging over someone's shoulder and showing them how to scribe one of his spells when he could be fighting evil? Why would he feel ok handing over one of his most powerful spells, one that he only gained after years of hard work and can lose if he breaks his code, to someone who has none of that? You don't spend your life becoming a marksman and then just had a loaded magnum over to a kid just because he asks. Balance-wise, this class is a joke. Roleplaying and DM intervention are NOT arguments to be used to say the class isn't overpowered. That's like saying clerics are balanced because of alignment restrictions. It's a JOKE. The paladin requires roleplaying to hold him in check. So do all of the divine casters. That's because it's a roleplaying game. They gain spells by serving a deity and should have behavioural restrictions to reflect that. In a game without roleplay, the archivist has the potential to be a little unbalanced, but is held in check by cost. In a game with roleplaying, then the archivist finds balance.
Pazu 01-14-06, 06:59 PM	Just a thought. When we have to talk about DM intervention to not allow a caster to get his hands on scrolls, don't you think there's a problem? I can't remember the last time I had to tell people "No, you can't have such and such magic item." Really? So my 2nd-level fighter says, "I want a +4 keen vorpal greatsword" and you say, "Okey-dokey"? A Paladin cheapening their god's gifts? Interesting, considering paladins get their spells from the power of law and good. Balance-wise, this class is a joke. Roleplaying and DM intervention are NOT arguments to be used to say the class isn't overpowered. That's like saying clerics are balanced because of alignment restrictions. It's a JOKE. Er, isn't the whole game about DM intervention? If a DM throws inappropriately large amounts of treasure at characters (and make no mistake, free access to spells is treasure just as much as magic items or gold), doesn't that make everyone overpowered?
Pazu 01-14-06, 07:05 PM	Personally, it sounds like the split in requirements for spell casting is a huge Minus. Also, Wizards have to buy spells, and their spells are supposed to be more powerful. I figure, whatever stop Wizards from getting access to all spells possible should pretty much help out in stopping the Archivist. They do pretty much have the same limiting issues. On top of that, aren't most domain spells that are also Wizard spells one level Higher. Take Fireball, isn't that a 4 level spell in the Fire Domain? Please, I've only seen it online, so I could be wrong, correct me if I am. Many of them are higher level. Fireball isn't actually a domain spell for the Fire domain at all. :) I've only seen a divine fireball as the level 4 school spell for the shugenja Order of the Consuming Flame (Complete Divine). Good luck finding a scroll of that. ;)
DM Denubis 01-14-06, 07:42 PM	Really? So my 2nd-level fighter says, "I want a +4 keen vorpal greatsword" and you say, "Okey-dokey"? No, I ask where you got 200,000 gold. Wealth by level is a balancing factor in and of itself. Now, if you'd like to stop applying hyperbole to my statement, I'll gladly further explain myself. What if the player said "I want to buy his sword/armor/horse"? Would your paladin really say "Sure!" or would he say that he needs them to fight evil? Why would he be willing to spend a day hanging over someone's shoulder and showing them how to scribe one of his spells when he could be fighting evil? Why would he feel ok handing over one of his most powerful spells, one that he only gained after years of hard work and can lose if he breaks his code, to someone who has none of that? You don't spend your life becoming a marksman and then just had a loaded magnum over to a kid just because he asks. You don't use analogies a lot, do you? If a paladin helps an archivist create a scroll, what has he lost? Nothing. If he loses his sword, however, that's another thing entirely. Now, you want to talk about roleplaying, and that's fine with me. But understand that you might not like my response. If I were a paladin, I'd be handing this scroll off in a heartbeat. Why? Because I DON'T get my spell from a deity, and the person will be using a Lawful Good spell. This implies that he'll be using it for lawful good purposes. I'm distributing a tool for fighting evil, which, to me, is as important as fighting evil itself. On another note, I suppose you're one of those DMs that doesn't believe in a magic shop, either.
RunningWilder 01-14-06, 08:03 PM	[size=1]You don't use analogies a lot, do you? If a paladin helps an archivist create a scroll, what has he lost? Nothing. If he loses his sword, however, that's another thing entirely. Now, you want to talk about roleplaying, and that's fine with me. But understand that you might not like my response. If I were a paladin, I'd be handing this scroll off in a heartbeat. Why? Because I DON'T get my spell from a deity, and the person will be using a Lawful Good spell. This implies that he'll be using it for lawful good purposes. I'm distributing a tool for fighting evil, which, to me, is as important as fighting evil itself. How does the paladin know what the spell is going to be used for? The spell can be used by anyone who isn't chaotic or evil (unless they have Use Magic Device). True Neutral characters can use the spell for anything they want, even evil purposes. There is nothing that ensures that it's being used the way he would use it. He can check their alignment, but they can disguise it. He doesn't lose anything, but no paladin is going to take the risk that his powers are misused. If he learns that he can really trust a person, he might give them a spell or two, but he isn't going to become a library. When he starts handing out those spells, they can easily find their way into the hands of those that would misuse them, which can help the causes of Chaos and Evil. Paladin's may not get their spell from a deity, but they have to restrict themselves even more than clerics have to in order to keep them. Cities don't give adventurer's free healing in order to encourage them to sell their goods in the town and help the economy, and Elminster doesn't spend days showing second level wizards how to scribe a new spell. On another note, I suppose you're one of those DMs that doesn't believe in a magic shop, either. I believe in magic shops in appropriate places and cultures. I don't believe in a city which is going to allow disintigrate to be sold to anyone who walks in off the street, or temples that hand out scrolls of Lesser Planar Ally or Gate to any potential demon summonor who has the cash.
DM Denubis 01-14-06, 08:22 PM	Now, just for a laugh, let's assume that this scroll isn't coming from a paladin. Let's assume it's coming from a Chameleon, which is perfectly feasible. What's your reason then? There's nothing about fighting evil or anything in that class. He's not getting his spells from anywhere special. So what's the problem with that? There's more than one way to get a scroll.
RunningWilder 01-14-06, 08:49 PM	Now, just for a laugh, let's assume that this scroll isn't coming from a paladin. Let's assume it's coming from a Chameleon, which is perfectly feasible. What's your reason then? There's nothing about fighting evil or anything in that class. He's not getting his spells from anywhere special. So what's the problem with that? There's more than one way to get a scroll. If you can find a Chameleon, sure. And they're easy to find, what with hiding in society. They'd love to do nothing but give you spells, eh? The thing about Chameleons is that they don't want to get noticed for that kind of ability. Your plan works easily if you ignore the basics about the class and the way it works in the world. Of course that requires that the Prestiege class exists in the game world, but I assume that you'd put their absense down to DM intervention. So a spalt book has something that can be easily abused. That's hardly a new find.
Moribund 01-14-06, 09:29 PM	I love the Archivist, though I do think it needs a few house rules. Giving them access to ALL divine spells is a mistake IMHO. They should be limited to cleric and druid spells (those are the only ones mentioned in their description) and possibly the Domain spells granted by their deity. Of course I'm of the camp that thinks all divine casters need a deity to grant them their spells (I usually play in Forgotten Realms where this is the case anyway). The archivist is a wonderful replacement for the cloistered cleric variant in unearthed arcana. It also fills out the matrix of arcane/divine spellcasters: archivist/wizards – casters that prepare spells from books favored soul/sorcerors – spontanous casters with finite spells known cleric & druid/warmage – casters that cast spells from a spell-list Personally, I wish that clerics were more like warmages and had pre-set spell-list that they could expand (and thus prevent the new product equals versatility bump), but I suppose that's neither here nor there.
DM Denubis 01-14-06, 09:29 PM	You're assuming I'm suggesting walking up to the friendly neighborhood chameleon and saying, "Gee, friendly neightborhood chameleon, I'd sure like a scroll of Holy Sword!". What I'm attempting to do is give reason why there COULD be these scrolls in any given magic shop. Why would this Chameleon have any issues with trading a spell for a little bit of cash?
RunningWilder 01-14-06, 09:55 PM	You're assuming I'm suggesting walking up to the friendly neighborhood chameleon and saying, "Gee, friendly neightborhood chameleon, I'd sure like a scroll of Holy Sword!". What I'm attempting to do is give reason why there COULD be these scrolls in any given magic shop. Why would this Chameleon have any issues with trading a spell for a little bit of cash? And what about in a world without Chameleons? Doing something like that is going to draw attention to the Chameleon. Even if a few chameleons did it the chance of walking into the right shop that had the scroll would be rather low. If too many chameleons were scribing those rare scrolls for cash, the churches in the area would start to find out where they were coming from and begin to look for them. I'm pretty sure that the PrC mentions something about keep below the radar, so that would be a bad thing. I'm not saying that it's impossible for an archivist to get his hands on the rarer spells, but he should have to work hard to find them. The class description already explains where he should go in order to get them, and a scroll or two could be a nice reward for being extremely helpful (ie. driving back an aspect of a rival god that had materialized in the middle of the high priest's chambers while he was ill and unable to protect himself). But claiming that he'll have unlimited access to every spell possible because of the existance of an obscure and extremely limited PrC is ludicrous. Chameleons providing hard to find spells to magic shops is a plothook to learn more about the Chameleons themselves. It shouldn't be the explaination you're using to justify having a shop with more magic than most wizards see in a lifetime. EDIT: From page 115 of Races of Destiny, dealing with how NPCs react to Chameleons. "Clerics, Druids and Paladins are unfriendly or hostile, actively seeking to expose Chameleons as frauds; they pretend to have divine powers, which insults the gods and those that have their genuine favour."
BarbeChenue 01-14-06, 10:23 PM	Let's not forget that if Archivists exist in a Campaign world, then all archivists will be able to share their acquired knowledge to some extent. Archivist "private clubs" could offer access to tons of rare spells in exchange for a premium price, and all members would be able to access pretty much any spell given time. :)
RunningWilder 01-14-06, 10:51 PM	Let's not forget that if Archivists exist in a Campaign world, then all archivists will be able to share their acquired knowledge to some extent. Archivist "private clubs" could offer access to tons of rare spells in exchange for a premium price, and all members would be able to access pretty much any spell given time. :) I've actually got a few in my game, but they're fairly secretive because of anamosity from the other divine casters. They do share spells, but, like wizards, the really hard to find ones are kept in private collections. I do this because of two reasons. If you're too prolific in giving around this power, the clerics are going to get fed up and attack. Also, as a collection of scholars the group has a informal hierarchy among the members, with those with more spells and knowledge sitting at the top. Some spells are harder to find because they are status symbols.
Pazu 01-15-06, 01:01 AM	No, I ask where you got 200,000 gold. Wealth by level is a balancing factor in and of itself. Now, if you'd like to stop applying hyperbole to my statement, I'll gladly further explain myself. You didn't read my post above regarding wealth, did you? Believe me, I don't need further explanation, because your response was exactly in line with what I said before. Wealth by level restricts the number of spells an archivist (or a wizard, for that matter) can obtain, just as it restricts the type of magic weapon the hypothetical fighter can buy. To reiterate: My previous example was for a 3rd level archivist seeking 2nd level spells. Between market prices for 2nd-level divine scrolls and scribing costs, he can obtain 7 spells at the typical wealth level for a 3rd level character (total cost 2450 gp, average wealth for a 3rd level character is 2700 gp). The total number of 2nd level divine spells in the core rules (cleric, druid, and adept), not counting domain spells, is 56. Seven spells from this list is hardly covering all the bases, and this assumes that the character spent very little (250 gp) on armor, weapons, and other equipment. Suppose, instead, our archivist decides to hire a druid to cast spells while he sits there with his scribing materials. Assuming he tries to get the minimum required caster level to keep costs down, his expenditure per 2nd level scroll spell is 10 gp x 2 (2nd level spell) x 3 (minimum caster level) = 60 gp paid to the druid, plus 75 gp and 6 XP, for a total of 135 gp and 6 XP per spell. That's only 15 gp less per spell than the market price for the equivalent scrolls, and he's paying XP also. The scribing costs to enter the scrolls into his prayerbook remain the same. If he does this, he can purchase and scribe 8 spells, instead of 7. He only has 160 gp left over to buy other stuff. If you have, say, a druid in your campaign who's willing to provide 7 spells to the archivist, shouldn't that be considered at least equivalent to the hiring cost for someone to cast those 7 spells in terms of treasure value, and therefore, in terms of character wealth? An NPC spellcaster who's willing to function as a free spell service is hardly a zero-value resource, and should be taken into account with respect to character wealth. [Edit: That darn coding again. Preview is my friend.]
RadicalTaoist 01-15-06, 11:06 PM	Pazu I suppose it depends on which spells in particular you're angling for. A domain that provides a kick-ass third level spell might not give you much interesting for levels 4 and 6, and you may have logically excluded yourself from the best domain spells for those levels. Can I ask what you mean by "logicaly excluded" please? I'm a little confused.:weep: Well, we know that divine scrolls are less than half as likely to be found compared to arcane scrolls, and that normally non-clerical domain spells don't seem to be found at all (by random chance). Fair enough. That leaves scroll cheese. (Hey, it could be worse. There's a reading of divine scroll which can be extrapolated to Archivist gets any scroll -> Archivist uses that scroll to scribe a scroll of the same spell, which is divine because the Archivist scribed it -> Archivist copies it into his prayerbook, regardless of the scroll's spell list; it can come from ANYWHERE. I avoid that interpretation because it grants the same infinite spell access to Wizards). So let's run with the idea of the best 5-10 spells per level, freely selected, from any divine caster's list. At third level, the archivist gains access to 2nd-level spells. He picks his two free spells from the cleric list. Between equipment and supplies, we'll say that he has budgeted most of his character wealth (2700 gp for a third level character) for acquiring and scribing spells: for 2450 gp, he can buy 7 2nd-level scrolls and scribe them into his prayerbook (7 x 150 gp purchase price + 7 x 200 gp scribing costs). So he'll have a total of nine 2nd-level spells, two from the cleric list and seven from wherever. There are 32 2nd-level cleric spells in the PHB alone, not counting domain spells, and another 20 2nd-level druid spells in the PHB that aren't also on the cleric list. The adept list contains another 4 2nd-level spells that aren't on the cleric or druid lists. So, a total of 56 spells, of which the archivist knows 9. He can only cast 2 (say 3, since we'll assume he has a decent Wisdom) per day, and has to prepare them beforehand. He can't spontaneously convert them to healing, inflicting, or summoning spells unless he's taken the relevant feats (and even then, he's limited by his Wisdom modifier). Are there really only nine spells out of this list of 56 that are worthwhile? Oh wait, my bad. This is a 3rd-level example you say? I'm willing to concede that the Archivist is fine at 3rd level. I've never had any balance problems with any character at 3rd level. Some monsters on the other hand...>.< There are still a great number of spells that appear only on the sorceror/wizard lists (unless the Spell Compendium changed that; I don't have the book). The problem with Spell Compendium and stuff like Complete Divine is not that they give access to preexisting arcane spells. What they do is make a bunch of awesome clerical/druidic spells that make the sorcerous/wizardly spells unnecessary. I have no idea what the Oberoni Fallacy is The Oberoni Fallacy (bearing the name of the forum regular who called the fallacy) is to believe that, because the DM can deal with unbalance material by applying houserules, drastically altering the world guidelines, or punishing with roleplaying restrictions, the material is not unbalanced. The fact that you need to do these things to maintain game balance is proof that the material is unbalancing. I was calling the Fallacy on two issues. First, an obvious houserule, that Archivist or users of the UMD skill tricking divine magic items may have their spells denied if the gods disagree. There is nothing in the rules stating that may be the case. My second cry of OF I'll explain below. but your examples smack of Monty Haul DMing to me. The archivist sells the Fochlucans a little extra information? Well, he's been paid for it, so why should we also give him free access to the druidic library? Doesn't need the whole library. Or, if he's going to be paid in information, fine, give him access to a number of scrolls that's a) equal in value to the information's worth in gp and b) isn't out of bounds for a typical adventuring reward for that level. But of course. My problem is that's enough to give him too much in spell options. The cleric spell list is too much in spell options to begin with. Maybe I'm just a nazi DM, but I hate it when the cleric is vulnerable to nothing - strong in melee combat, can't be grappled, good saves, elemental resistance, no death effects..... Otherwise, it's like complaining that your 5th-level fighter is overpowered because he can make perfectly good use of that +3 shocking burst wounding longsword the Fochlucan college gave him for his loyal service as a bodyguard. I never assumed going beyond the wealth by level guidelines in the DMG. Start looking at middle and higher levels. Archivists will have more than enough wealth for the scrolls they want. Scrolls are the cheapest magic items. I called Oberoni Fallacy on this because you basically have to limit the Archivist above and beyond. "You can't steal scrolls, you can't pay NPCs for spellcasting, you don't get scroll rewards for quests, scrolls don't show up as random treasure..." and so on. I have to tell the Archivist player that to keep his class balanced? Even then, it will fall apart if there's another divine caster in the party. Unless he really irritates the druid PC, he can be sure to get some good spell sharing. Letting the Archivist get scrolls from your list is like getting free spell slots - remember all the spells you didn't know if you could afford to prepare? Archie here will help you pick up the slack. Teamwork improves a party, but I don't remember the Fighter or Rogue or even Bard producing such a resounding effect when working with the divine casters (who are quite arguably overpowered in the first place). Heaven help your game if your Archivist is alongside a Shugenja or Divine Bard, and I won't get started on Artificers and Chameleons. I see the process of spell acquisition for wizards and archivists as a subset of the general wealth acquisition for all characters. Free access to 20 2nd level spells is a reward worth 3000 gp, regardless of whether or not the character wants all 20 of them. Or should a captured spellbook only be worth whatever spells are in it that the wizard doesn't already know? Of course. I wouldn't doubt for a second. Running Wilder Having the potential to do something isn't the same as being able to do it. I'm sure that there are more than enough cracked combinations created through use of the wizard class, after all. Then we get into the argument of where things break. It could be that what the archivist needs is a system-wide nerf of every divine spell list. Perhaps you can descibe some of the in-game situations that proved how broken the archivist is? Holy Sword 7 levels before the Paladin's supposed to get it. Polymorph in medium armor along with Divine Power, Divine Favor, and maybe Righteous Might. To be fair, if supplements are limited the Archivist takes a little longer to break than the Cleric (the former I can sorta deal with till about level 13, whereas the latter can be a problem at 9). Noncore is a huge problem, though. Forestfold? Embrace the Wild? Divine Metamagic from Sacred Exorcist? Anyspell? Brain Spider? Quill Blast? Spikes? Archie gets them all. In-game, that results in a PC I can't attach a weakness to and who can have the right spell or spell combination for any monster I put up. I have to focus on that character, sometimes with party ambush, in order to threaten him. It's the problem I have with clerics, except it comes in later levels and it branches out more. Have you bothered reading the description of the archivist? It says that they have poor relations with divine casters. Nothing says they have to go out of the way to smite archivist, just that they don't have to make it easy for them to get their spells. Of course. This is a speed bump. As for not in the guidelines, show where in the guidelines it says that a wizard is not allowed to research an arcane version of Cure light wounds, or Flamestrike, or Divine Might. Just a page number. Nothing, of course. And truth be told I don't feel that would be unbalanced. I note however, that wizards are allowed to research spells at all. You can point me to where it says Wizards may research new spells. I cannot recall any "gods may freely and without consequence take away the class abilities of characters besides clerics (and druids and paladins and rangers if you're playing FR)". I see nothing in the UMD description, the Archivist class, the Ur-Priest PrC for that matter, or any deity description (besides Mystra, who is both campaign-specific and who gets a lot of flak from Ao for doing so) implying the rules as written support this. And anything broken can be balanced when the DM says "it doesn't work period." Doesn't mean it's not broken. I suggest you read over what I wrote again. My point is that if you stop meta-game thinking you'd realize that divine casters aren't going to hand over their god's spells over to someone who can use it without the same connection between priest/deity. It cheapens their gift and allows some unique spells (such as a paladin's holy sword) to be used without the God's blessings. There is a reason that archivists are described as having poor relations with divine casters and why they have to search in tombs and lost libraries for their spells. The spells are still there to be had. You are citing a roleplaying restriction. Prove your service to the church in question, kill an enemy divine spellcaster and take his magic items (not just scrolls, BBEGs are great for this), disguise yourself as a priest somehow (you are good at faking it, after all), and so on. This is just like the 'deity restrictions' argument for cleric. Hell, if an archivist meets and ideology cleric who's not a member of a church, and the two get along really well, that's two more domains for Archie. Maybe they'll get a spell or two for really helping out a group, but that's not really going to break anything. And if you actually think about it, a wizard who helped the Royal library fight off the orc invasion of 1352 and defeated the dread enchanter Deros is going to be more powerful than a wizard who hasn't. It's the nature of the game that the more you do, the more allies you gain, the better you do. I have yet to see a Fighter with friends or a Ranger with friends cause the problems an Archivist with friends troubles me with. Just because you call it an oberani fallacy doesn't mean it is. See my arguments for calling OF above in my response to Pazu. Edit: And just because he helps an organization doesn't mean they'll let him clear them out. Maybe they'll give him a spell or two for all his work, but they aren't going to let him run rampant with demands. He does this two or three times during his adventuring career, he's got enough spells to render the combat functions of the Ranger and Paladin obsolete (Holy Sword, Lion's Charge, noncore stuff like Forestfall, Gravestrike, Arrow Storm, etc.). This is not counting the party Rogue stealing stuff for him, paying NPCs that really don't mind sharing the spells, having a divine caster in the party... Maybe it's just me. But I have a real problem with casters that have access to pick and choose between a wide variety of spells. I have a "too many options" line, and the Archivist as written falls over it. So does the Cleric and Druid for that matter. The Archivist will not appear in games I DM unless altered from how it was originally written.
Pazu 01-16-06, 12:38 PM	Hi, Radical Taoist-- First off, I would like to apologize if some of my previous comments came across as snarky. I'm actually really enjoying this discussion, and I appreciate that you've been able to keep things calm. :) I think we agree on more things than not, actually. Can I ask what you mean by "logicaly excluded" please? I'm a little confused.:weep: Sorry. In effect, what I'm trying to say is that if an archivist has proven himself sufficiently devoted to a particular deity to convince a cleric of said deity to scribe domain spells for him to learn, he's unlikely to be able to convince a cleric of an opposed deity of that same level of devotion to his deity. For example, if your archivist has buddied up with a cleric of Pelor and gotten some domain spells out of it, he's probably not going to be able to pal around with a cleric of Tharizdun at the same time (at least, not to the point that he gets that divine magic missile). Fair enough. That leaves scroll cheese. (Hey, it could be worse. There's a reading of divine scroll which can be extrapolated to Archivist gets any scroll -> Archivist uses that scroll to scribe a scroll of the same spell, which is divine because the Archivist scribed it -> Archivist copies it into his prayerbook, regardless of the scroll's spell list; it can come from ANYWHERE. I avoid that interpretation because it grants the same infinite spell access to Wizards). For the sake of sanity, I would hope that DMs the world over agree on this count. :D Oh wait, my bad. This is a 3rd-level example you say? I'm willing to concede that the Archivist is fine at 3rd level. I've never had any balance problems with any character at 3rd level. Some monsters on the other hand...>.< The problem with Spell Compendium and stuff like Complete Divine is not that they give access to preexisting arcane spells. What they do is make a bunch of awesome clerical/druidic spells that make the sorcerous/wizardly spells unnecessary. Well, I just pulled that number out of the air for my example. I did run a few numbers for all levels, and my back-of-envelope calculations found that: - overall, due to spell purchase costs and scribing costs, an archivist was relatively limited in the number of spells he could learn until approximately level 13, even if he spends all his accumulated wealth on spells (based on Average Wealth by Character Level, DMG p. 135). - by the time he hit level 18, he would have sufficient funds to buy all the divine scrolls in the DMG, assuming he never spent any money on anything else. - assuming he did spend money on other stuff (as we assume any adventurer would), he could still probably buy all the divine scrolls in the DMG by level 19. - this, of course, doesn't take into account all the new kick-ass divine spells from subsequent sources. Now I'm not sure (seriously); is this overpowered? A wizard will be doing the same thing; although the number of arcane scrolls is greater, he can still probably buy them all by level 18 or 19. The Oberoni Fallacy (bearing the name of the forum regular who called the fallacy) is to believe that, because the DM can deal with unbalance material by applying houserules, drastically altering the world guidelines, or punishing with roleplaying restrictions, the material is not unbalanced. The fact that you need to do these things to maintain game balance is proof that the material is unbalancing. I was calling the Fallacy on two issues. First, an obvious houserule, that Archivist or users of the UMD skill tricking divine magic items may have their spells denied if the gods disagree. There is nothing in the rules stating that may be the case. My second cry of OF I'll explain below. Thanks for the explanation. For the record, I also don't think mechanical issues should be balanced by roleplaying restrictions (although admittedly, some restrictions straddle the boundary between strict mechanics and flavor only). But of course. My problem is that's enough to give him too much in spell options. The cleric spell list is too much in spell options to begin with. Maybe I'm just a nazi DM, but I hate it when the cleric is vulnerable to nothing - strong in melee combat, can't be grappled, good saves, elemental resistance, no death effects..... I think I see where the root of the problem is. ;) I never assumed going beyond the wealth by level guidelines in the DMG. Start looking at middle and higher levels. Archivists will have more than enough wealth for the scrolls they want. Scrolls are the cheapest magic items. As I noted above, quick calculations suggested to me that the archivist is constrained by wealth until at least level 13, and most likely higher assuming he'll want to spend money on other things too (magic armor, magic weapons, stat-boosting items, a Boccob's blessed prayerbook...) Again, this is only looking at the divine scrolls in the DMG treasure table. Start throwing in new cleric spells, new druid spells, and shugenja spells, and suddenly your money isn't going very far into the list of options. I called Oberoni Fallacy on this because you basically have to limit the Archivist above and beyond. "You can't steal scrolls, you can't pay NPCs for spellcasting, you don't get scroll rewards for quests, scrolls don't show up as random treasure..." and so on. I have to tell the Archivist player that to keep his class balanced? Pay NPCs for spellcasting? Sure you can. I noted above that it costs nearly as much to pay and scribe as it does to buy a scroll and scribe. Don't get scroll rewards for quests? That's the opposite of what I said above. :) If the archivist learns of the existence of a divine magic missile spell and really wants it, make him work for it! (By the time he gets it, there's probably a better cleric spell available anyway, from some source or other. :D) Steal scrolls? Here's another instance, I suppose, where we fall on opposite sides of the Fallacy. To me, if there's a treasure hoard waiting to be plundered, the DM is the one who decides what treasure's in there, and what treasure is inappropriate, whether it's inappropriate due to campaign world, character level, or character type. Scrolls as random treasure? Using the DMG random treasure table, you only get the basic cleric/druid list. No domain spells, no adept spells. OK, you do have a chance of finding holy sword, but I honestly don't see the adept, with his +1/2 BAB, getting a whole lot of use from that. Even then, it will fall apart if there's another divine caster in the party. Unless he really irritates the druid PC, he can be sure to get some good spell sharing. Letting the Archivist get scrolls from your list is like getting free spell slots - remember all the spells you didn't know if you could afford to prepare? Archie here will help you pick up the slack. Teamwork improves a party, but I don't remember the Fighter or Rogue or even Bard producing such a resounding effect when working with the divine casters (who are quite arguably overpowered in the first place). Heaven help your game if your Archivist is alongside a Shugenja or Divine Bard, and I won't get started on Artificers and Chameleons. I agree that those are potential problems, since if your players decide they're going to do this, consistent with their character types or not, there's not a whole lot you can do about it outside of DM fiat. Personally, my feeling is that if druids won't even teach their secret language to non-druids, they're even less likely to share their spells, but again, that's a flavor thing. I guess, from a mechanical angle, I'd handle it by keeping note of the free spells the archivist gets and deducting their equivalent monetary value from the amount of adventure reward he'd otherwise be getting, giving him a discount, of course, if their friendship is handled very well in-game. Is that the contrapositive to the Fallacy, giving mechanical rewards for good roleplaying? Then we get into the argument of where things break. It could be that what the archivist needs is a system-wide nerf of every divine spell list. Holy Sword 7 levels before the Paladin's supposed to get it. Polymorph in medium armor along with Divine Power, Divine Favor, and maybe Righteous Might. To be fair, if supplements are limited the Archivist takes a little longer to break than the Cleric (the former I can sorta deal with till about level 13, whereas the latter can be a problem at 9). Noncore is a huge problem, though. Forestfold? Embrace the Wild? Divine Metamagic from Sacred Exorcist? Anyspell? Brain Spider? Quill Blast? Spikes? Archie gets them all. In-game, that results in a PC I can't attach a weakness to and who can have the right spell or spell combination for any monster I put up. I have to focus on that character, sometimes with party ambush, in order to threaten him. It's the problem I have with clerics, except it comes in later levels and it branches out more. [...] Maybe it's just me. But I have a real problem with casters that have access to pick and choose between a wide variety of spells. I have a "too many options" line, and the Archivist as written falls over it. So does the Cleric and Druid for that matter. The Archivist will not appear in games I DM unless altered from how it was originally written. If you have a problem with clerics and druids, then I can see why you'd have a problem with the archivist. In my admittedly limited experience, I haven't had a problem with the core divine casters, so I don't see that the archivist should be the problem.
RadicalTaoist 01-16-06, 02:12 PM	First off, I would like to apologize if some of my previous comments came across as snarky. I'm actually really enjoying this discussion, and I appreciate that you've been able to keep things calm. :) Oh no problem! I like gauging other people's balance positions too. I'm kind of an amateur game designer, and balance interests me. I think we agree on more things than not, actually. More likely than not. These discussions almost always lead to a clarification of positions and differences in where one draws the line. Sorry. In effect, what I'm trying to say is that if an archivist has proven himself sufficiently devoted to a particular deity to convince a cleric of said deity to scribe domain spells for him to learn, he's unlikely to be able to convince a cleric of an opposed deity of that same level of devotion to his deity. For example, if your archivist has buddied up with a cleric of Pelor and gotten some domain spells out of it, he's probably not going to be able to pal around with a cleric of Tharizdun at the same time (at least, not to the point that he gets that divine magic missile). OK, fair enough. This kind of raises another problem - since not all domains are created equal (many just duplicate the cleric spell list), some of Archie's potential friends may not be as optimal as others. It'd be a shame (although a possible roleplayin option) to see an Archivist PC select his factions based on the spell power they offer him. Well, I just pulled that number out of the air for my example. I did run a few numbers for all levels, and my back-of-envelope calculations found that: - overall, due to spell purchase costs and scribing costs, an archivist was relatively limited in the number of spells he could learn until approximately level 13, even if he spends all his accumulated wealth on spells (based on Average Wealth by Character Level, DMG p. 135). Thanks for doing the homework! About 13 is where the Archivist bothers me. - by the time he hit level 18, he would have sufficient funds to buy all the divine scrolls in the DMG, assuming he never spent any money on anything else. Now again, note that Archie gets two spells from the cleric list for free. How many of those scrolls are stuff he'd already get? How much do the Druid and Cleric lists overlap? How much is stuff he doesn't need nor has interest in? (like Magic Fang or Animal Growth) - assuming he did spend money on other stuff (as we assume any adventurer would), he could still probably buy all the divine scrolls in the DMG by level 19. - this, of course, doesn't take into account all the new kick-ass divine spells from subsequent sources. Now I'm not sure (seriously); is this overpowered? A wizard will be doing the same thing; although the number of arcane scrolls is greater, he can still probably buy them all by level 18 or 19. Well, high-level casters are a blight upon game balance in and of themselves by level 17 easy. The Archivist can cast Gate. It's a cleric spell. That's a gamebreaker. Part of what the Archivist needs is a system-wide spell nerf. As I noted above, quick calculations suggested to me that the archivist is constrained by wealth until at least level 13, and most likely higher assuming he'll want to spend money on other things too (magic armor, magic weapons, stat-boosting items, a Boccob's blessed prayerbook...) Forget Boccob. The Caster's Shield on p. 221 of the DMG 3.5 basically halves all scroll-scribing costs.:eek: Anyway, 13 is about when Archy becomes problematic. Again, this is only looking at the divine scrolls in the DMG treasure table. Start throwing in new cleric spells, new druid spells, and shugenja spells, and suddenly your money isn't going very far into the list of options. Remember here: Archy doesn't need it all. He just needs the best. And the noncore stuff gives him crazy options. Clerics are already the best core archers in the game, buffed. All of a sudden we have a cleric who can cast Arrow Mind, Hawkeye, Arrow Storm, Wind Tunnel, Hunter's Mercy, Sniper's Perch, and every other ranger/assassin archery enabling spell you want. Steal scrolls? Here's another instance, I suppose, where we fall on opposite sides of the Fallacy. To me, if there's a treasure hoard waiting to be plundered, the DM is the one who decides what treasure's in there, and what treasure is inappropriate, whether it's inappropriate due to campaign world, character level, or character type. Of course here the Fallacy becomes fuzzy. Is a lack of power stones in the hoarde going out of the way to screw Psions? Are some classes more item-dependent than others? I'll let this one go. OK, you do have a chance of finding holy sword, but I honestly don't see the adept, with his +1/2 BAB, getting a whole lot of use from that. Well, Holy Sword by itself is no big deal. Holy Sword, Polymorph, Divine Power, Stoneskin, Barkskin, all together? I agree that those are potential problems, since if your players decide they're going to do this, consistent with their character types or not, there's not a whole lot you can do about it outside of DM fiat. Personally, my feeling is that if druids won't even teach their secret language to non-druids, they're even less likely to share their spells, but again, that's a flavor thing. I guess, from a mechanical angle, I'd handle it by keeping note of the free spells the archivist gets and deducting their equivalent monetary value from the amount of adventure reward he'd otherwise be getting, giving him a discount, of course, if their friendship is handled very well in-game. Is that the contrapositive to the Fallacy, giving mechanical rewards for good roleplaying? Not really. The only part I could call OF on is the deduction of monetary equivalent, and that's only a minor issue (really, the amount of options it allows well outweighs the monetary costs). There are three ways to balance problem material: houserules pre-game, adjustments in-game, or agreement out-of-game. The first - rewriting the rules to your liking before the game starts - I favor because of it's solid reliability. The second - cutting out scroll options, making Archivist castings fail because of divine intervention - is the easiest. The third - talking it over with your players and agreeing that they will not outperform the monsters or eachother - is arguably the best. My houserules for the archivist would be dependent on my nerf to the cleric spell list. I'd dock a lot of spells in power, and I'd also move a lot of spells from the base cleric lists on to domains, exclusively. This would turn the Archivist's spell options from too much into something the Archivist would need to compete (because his free options, the Cleric spell list, would be suddenly inadequate). At this point I'd allow the Archivist to choose a primary tradition and a secondary tradition. A tradition is his choice of spell list - he could choose the base spell list of any divine spellcasting class, or all the domain spells offered by a single deity, as a tradition. His primary tradition is where he draws his two free spells each level from (like he does from the cleric list now). Every three levels or so, he can add to his prayer book a single spell from his secondary tradition of up to a level below the highest level of spell he can cast (like the expanded knowledge feature of the Recaster PrC from Races of Eberron). This limits him to two spell lists at the very most, and seems fine to me. If you have a problem with clerics and druids, then I can see why you'd have a problem with the archivist. In my admittedly limited experience, I haven't had a problem with the core divine casters, so I don't see that the archivist should be the problem. Fair enough. S'your game.:)
Pazu 01-16-06, 03:53 PM	Oh no problem! I like gauging other people's balance positions too. I'm kind of an amateur game designer, and balance interests me. Me too; I find I can't resist reading threads about whether X class is balanced, weak, or overpowered, although those arguments frequently get over my head. OK, fair enough. This kind of raises another problem - since not all domains are created equal (many just duplicate the cleric spell list), some of Archie's potential friends may not be as optimal as others. It'd be a shame (although a possible roleplayin option) to see an Archivist PC select his factions based on the spell power they offer him. That would be an interesting character. I'd have to keep a pretty sharp eye on metagaming here, though: unless the various religious orders regularly make public displays of their spellcasting, the archivist isn't going to necessarily know who butters his bread the best. :) Thanks for doing the homework! About 13 is where the Archivist bothers me. Now again, note that Archie gets two spells from the cleric list for free. How many of those scrolls are stuff he'd already get? How much do the Druid and Cleric lists overlap? How much is stuff he doesn't need nor has interest in? (like Magic Fang or Animal Growth) Well, I actually used a little metagame thinking of my own here. If you take a look at the scroll tables in the DMG treasure section, you'll see that while nearly all the scrolls of a given level cost the same, there are always two or three that cost more (sometimes a lot more). So I assumed that our archivist, in an attempt to cut costs, always took the most expensive spells as his level-up freebies. Regarding spell overlap: the divine scroll list includes cleric and druid spells, so I assumed it did a reasonable job of eliminating overlap. I haven't checked closely, though. Regarding unnecessary magic: to me, that consideration is pretty campaign-dependent, so I didn't feel I could judge. My assumption was that the "baseline" archivist is interested in everything he can get his hands on, based on the description of the class. Well, high-level casters are a blight upon game balance in and of themselves by level 17 easy. The Archivist can cast Gate. It's a cleric spell. That's a gamebreaker. Part of what the Archivist needs is a system-wide spell nerf. It sounds to me (please correct me if I'm wrong) that these concerns aren't actually particular to the archivist, but to (core) divine spellcasters in general, and that the archivist as written happens to piggyback on their power. Forget Boccob. The Caster's Shield on p. 221 of the DMG 3.5 basically halves all scroll-scribing costs.:eek: Didn't think about the caster's shield, since the archivist doesn't get shield proficiency, but I suppose he could still use one as a low-cost scribing adjunct ("Hey, cleric, lemme borrow your shield for a few days! Oh, and do you have an extra quill on you?" :D) Anyway, 13 is about when Archy becomes problematic. Remember here: Archy doesn't need it all. He just needs the best. And the noncore stuff gives him crazy options. Clerics are already the best core archers in the game, buffed. All of a sudden we have a cleric who can cast Arrow Mind, Hawkeye, Arrow Storm, Wind Tunnel, Hunter's Mercy, Sniper's Perch, and every other ranger/assassin archery enabling spell you want. I don't even recognize half the spells you mentioned here. :weep: Of course, the archivist is limited to simple weapons without spending a feat (or being an elf). Do those spells work on slings, darts, or crossbows? [...] Well, Holy Sword by itself is no big deal. Holy Sword, Polymorph, Divine Power, Stoneskin, Barkskin, all together? ...let me get back to you on that once I read over the spells in question. :) Not really. The only part I could call OF on is the deduction of monetary equivalent, and that's only a minor issue (really, the amount of options it allows well outweighs the monetary costs). There are three ways to balance problem material: houserules pre-game, adjustments in-game, or agreement out-of-game. The first - rewriting the rules to your liking before the game starts - I favor because of it's solid reliability. The second - cutting out scroll options, making Archivist castings fail because of divine intervention - is the easiest. The third - talking it over with your players and agreeing that they will not outperform the monsters or eachother - is arguably the best. Does deciding that certain classes, PrC's, or spells just don't exist in your world count as rewriting the rules? I guess I might add two subcategories to the first method: First, establishing ground campaign-world rules, which don't necessarily rewrite existing rules but place them in the context of your specific world. For instance, nothing in the rules says your archivist can't befriend a cleric of Vecna in order to get his hands on some Magic domain goodness, but in my world, a devotee of the Lord of Secrets would be way too...well, secretive, to do something like that. Second, strictly limiting use of metagame knowledge. With the proliferation of prestige classes, it's hard to enforce this 100%, since players have to plan their characters' progression to some degree, but I wouldn't think domain spell lists would be common knowledge in-character. For that matter, the archivist has to know certain spells exist before he can actively search for them. I guess one thing I've discovered recently is that I'm a much more story-oriented DM, and I'm likely to give questionable balance issues a pass if they seem to work in the context of the campaign. On the flip side, I'm likelier to restrict metagame thinking and things that don't make sense in my world, regardless of whether they're allowed by the rules as written. My houserules for the archivist would be dependent on my nerf to the cleric spell list. I'd dock a lot of spells in power, and I'd also move a lot of spells from the base cleric lists on to domains, exclusively. This would turn the Archivist's spell options from too much into something the Archivist would need to compete (because his free options, the Cleric spell list, would be suddenly inadequate). At this point I'd allow the Archivist to choose a primary tradition and a secondary tradition. A tradition is his choice of spell list - he could choose the base spell list of any divine spellcasting class, or all the domain spells offered by a single deity, as a tradition. His primary tradition is where he draws his two free spells each level from (like he does from the cleric list now). Every three levels or so, he can add to his prayer book a single spell from his secondary tradition of up to a level below the highest level of spell he can cast (like the expanded knowledge feature of the Recaster PrC from Races of Eberron). This limits him to two spell lists at the very most, and seems fine to me. Interesting. :) I'd be interesting in knowing how that works out for you, and if I ever get a chance to play my unmodified archivist (faint hope :weep: ) I'll post the character and see if folks think it looks overpowered in practice.