Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aleolus 12-24-07, 02:42 PM	Hey, I've been looking at the Archivist listed in the Heros of Horror book, and I quite like it. Basically, it's a combination of the Cleric and the Wizard, casting Divine spells from a Prayerbook that they study every day. They also have almost no dead levels, though most of what they get are new uses of or new ways to use their Dark Knowledge ability. Only thing I find irritating about it is that it's Dark Knowledge ability can only be used on abberations, elementals, magical beasts, outsiders and undead. You have to take feats to expand it to other creature types.
The_Shaman 12-24-07, 03:43 PM	I believe they are usually considered among the strongest base classes, possibly making the Top 5. Lvl 9 casters who aren't restricted by armor (in their casting, at least) and can take spells from any divine caster's list have a lot going for them right there. I haven't played one, though, so I can't say how it goes. I suppose you'd fulfill a very similar role to the wizard, but with more options when you don't use your spells.
Silvanas84 12-24-07, 03:56 PM	I haven't played an Archivist yet but the limits on the uses of Dark Knowledge are biggest handicap IMO. That is more than offset by the fact that they can learn all divine spells though. I'd say they are pretty good.
Ekko 12-24-07, 03:58 PM	I've played an archivist or two, and the limitations on Dark Knowledge aren't as bad as you'd think. Most of what you wind up fighting is covered by DK. Anyways, taking 2 feats to really expand the usefulness of your main class features seems fair to me. (especially as it's great to start with)
JaronK 12-24-07, 04:02 PM	Heh, there's a big discussion of them right now in the thread about which class is the most powerful of all, and they're one of the 5 contenders for the title. Don't forget that you can make scrolls yourself using scribe scroll if you have someone else to provide the spell for you, so while finding a Paladin who'll give you those nifty spells is hard, you don't have to find a Paladin who has Scribe Scroll (which would be even harder). For balanced play, don't have a Warlock in the party. Remember to grab spells from Adepts... they're divine casters, and they get some very nice spells a level or two early, such as Heal. Any time you meet a cleric, see if you can't get his domain spells too. Archivists are exactly as powerful as the spells they can find. Also, check out Collecter of Stories (Skill Trick from Complete Scoundrel). Very useful. A dip into Sacred Exorcist will give you Turn Undead for use with Divine Metamagic, if you want to go that route, but that's very powerful, so make sure you won't overpower your other players. JaronK
danielinthewolvesden 12-25-07, 03:23 AM	So far, the arguments that I have seen that "prove" the Archivst is overpowered all depend 100% on Munchkin rules streching arguments like: If it's a Domain spell anywhere, it is allowed to the Achivist. Just about every spell is a Domain spell, thus the Archivist gets all the spells.:rolleyes: or If a PrC from a 3.0 Supplement allows a class to cast arcane spells somewhat like divine, then the Archivist is thus allowed all Aracne spells too.:rolleyes: Clearly the intent was otherwise. If the designers wanted the Archivist to have unlimited acess to any spell anywhere, they would have said so. They did not, so the Archivist just is allowed Divine spells actually on the lists. Thus, so far, I have rejected the arguments which have "proved" the archivist overpowered. I have actually played one. It ain't. When the folks come up with arguments that do not rely upon bogus & Munchin stretches, I will reconsider.
runestar 12-25-07, 05:57 AM	So far, the arguments that I have seen that "prove" the Archivst is overpowered all depend 100% on Munchkin rules streching arguments like: Hey, we didn't write the rules, we merely interpreted them. If it's a Domain spell anywhere, it is allowed to the Achivist. Just about every spell is a Domain spell, thus the Archivist gets all the spells. Which is true in a way. A domain spell is a divine spell, which as per its entry, is a legit candidate to be scribed into its prayerbook. Of course, actually tracking down said spell is the challenge, but again, this is something which will vary depending on how permissive the individual DM is, and not possible to comment properly. If a PrC from a 3.0 Supplement allows a class to cast arcane spells somewhat like divine, then the Archivist is thus allowed all Aracne spells too. This is a new one, never heard of it before, even in the CO boards.:eek: Clearly the intent was otherwise. If the designers wanted the Archivist to have unlimited acess to any spell anywhere, they would have said so. Nor did they deny this. All they stated was that an archivist may add divine spells to his book. And scrolls containing spells found on cleric domains, adept, druid, paladin and blackguard spells are all divine spells. Plus, the FAQ does clarify that domain spells are allowed, for whatever it is worth.:) When the folks come up with arguments that do not rely upon bogus & Munchin stretches, I will reconsider. With the exception of that rule about arcane spells being treated as divine, I find that the rest are very legitimate rules regarding the archivist. Conversely, I have no reason to believe that it was not designed to be played that way.:confused: I would say it is more like a case of ultimate power, but at ridiculous cost. Yes, you could eventually end up learning every divine spell in the game (+ bonuses, such as heal being a 5th lv spell, divine power being 3rd etc), but you really have to go out of your way to get there, plus access is still controlled by your DM. For all the effort you are investing, I certainly have no qualms about allowing it, IMO.
Cartigan 12-25-07, 10:08 AM	Archivist having access to all Divine spells is plenty powerful. There is no use pretending your DM is going to let you use every spell in the game because of absurd arguments based on a 3.0 class and a UA variant class.
Aleolus 12-25-07, 10:52 AM	Actually, Divine spells are significantly less powerful than arcane spells. The divine equivilent of Fireball, if I remember right, is a seventh level spell, while Fireball itself is a third-level arcane spell. I can't think of any other examples, but I'm sure there are. However, Divine spells are more useful in non-combat situations than arcane. Divine spellcasters get all the buff spells early on, while Wizards and Sorcs have to wait longer to get them. They also get all the good healing spells, like Heal, Regeneration, etc.
Aleolus 12-25-07, 10:58 AM	Actually, Divine spells are significantly less powerful than arcane spells. The divine equivilent of Fireball, if I remember right, is a seventh level spell, while Fireball itself is a third-level arcane spell. I can't think of any other examples, but I'm sure there are. However, Divine spells are more useful in non-combat situations than arcane. Divine spellcasters get all the buff spells early on, while Wizards and Sorcs have to wait longer to get them. They also get all the good healing spells, like Heal, Regeneration, etc.
RabidPirateMan 12-25-07, 10:59 AM	I love archivists, and have played quite a few. Theyre as broken as druids; thats the best way to put it. Being able to cast 10 bizillion spells is hard to manage when you only get to cast a couple, not to mention costly. However, the synergy between divine spells and normally arcane spells is wonderful, especially with the adept spell list (polymorph + bite of the wereboar = divine power? Who needs divine power!?). They can do everything- frontline, blast, debuff, buff, skill monkey, party face- but, like a druid, they cant do everything perfectly. Not all that bad as some of the stuff I've seen in games. Actually, Divine spells are significantly less powerful than arcane spells. The divine equivilent of Fireball, if I remember right, is a seventh level spell, while Fireball itself is a third-level arcane spell. I can't think of any other examples, but I'm sure there are. However, Divine spells are more useful in non-combat situations than arcane. Divine spellcasters get all the buff spells early on, while Wizards and Sorcs have to wait longer to get them. They also get all the good healing spells, like Heal, Regeneration, etc. Im pretty sure Fireball is on either the Shugenja spell list or a domain. By the way; Shugenja? Divine caster. :D
danielinthewolvesden 12-25-07, 02:08 PM	This is a new one, never heard of it before, even in the CO boards.:eek: Plus, the FAQ does clarify that domain spells are allowed, for whatever it is worth.:) 1. Right here there is a thread "most broken class" where a "CO Boarder" make that exact claim. 2. Got a link?
archerpwr 12-25-07, 03:09 PM	This is a new one, never heard of it before, even in the CO boards.:eek: Hexer (Masters of the Wild iirc). I think it's a bit cheesy, so I just refer to the arcane disciple domain option (can't remember the source, but it opens up any spell from three specific schools off the sorc/wiz list) and the favored soul alternative class feature in dragon magic (opens up all sorc/wiz up to 6th level). I would say it is more like a case of ultimate power, but at ridiculous cost. Yes, you could eventually end up learning every divine spell in the game (+ bonuses, such as heal being a 5th lv spell, divine power being 3rd etc), but you really have to go out of your way to get there, plus access is still controlled by your DM. For all the effort you are investing, I certainly have no qualms about allowing it, IMO. Haven't seen divine power as a third level spell before. What list? I play a slightly modified archivist right now, so I'm intrigued.
The_Shaman 12-25-07, 06:27 PM	Hexer (Masters of the Wild iirc). I think it's a bit cheesy, so I just refer to the arcane disciple domain option (can't remember the source, but it opens up any spell from three specific schools off the sorc/wiz list) and the favored soul alternative class feature in dragon magic (opens up all sorc/wiz up to 6th level). Haven't seen divine power as a third level spell before. What list? I play a slightly modified archivist right now, so I'm intrigued. I think it may be on the Runescarred Berserker (Unapproachable East, barbarian PrC) list. They get some pretty decent spells early on... If you consider their spellscars to be exactly spells, which should be easy, and convince your DM to allow it, which may be harder
archerpwr 12-25-07, 06:32 PM	I think it may be on the Runescarred Berserker (Unapproachable East, barbarian PrC) list. They get some pretty decent spells early on... If you consider their spellscars to be exactly spells, which should be easy, and convince your DM to allow it, which may be harder Yep. That's it. FoM at 3rd too.
The_Shaman 12-25-07, 07:05 PM	True. A more combat-oriented character can also make great use of Antimagic Field as a lvl 5 spell, although arguably the RB himself can put it to best use... AMF on a barbarian can be quite nice, I think ;)
Bopple 12-25-07, 07:11 PM	Well, Runescarred Berserkers do not actually cast spells. They use their items(runes) to gain the similar effects which affect themselves only. Anyway back to OP, while an archivist is certainly a very powerful class potentially, its actual power-curve is completely subject to DM's decision, in most games. And if he is the healer of the party, it's even worse. All in all, while it's one of the top 5 theoretically, it's rarely as powerful as cleric or wizard, in real gaming.
Darth Sephiroth 12-25-07, 07:21 PM	The Archivist can be extremely powerful in a game, however it's limitation make it hard to get to that same point of power. For instance a Cleric can simply purchase Nightsticks to become a superpower in the world, where an Archivist needs to look for some very unusual spellcasters in order to find the spells to gain his most powerful abilities. Basically you need to track down people to become optimized as best as possible while most others don't need to do so. Plus you end up using most of, if not all of, your skill points on various Knowledge skills to keep Dark Knowledge useful. Although you can basically give yourself Bardic Knowledge with the right build (Dragonwrought Kobolds can take the Draconic Knowledge feat quite easily)
runestar 12-25-07, 07:36 PM	They use their items(runes) to gain the similar effects which affect themselves only. It is technically still a 3rd lv divine spell, so in theory at least, warlocks could still create scrolls of those spells using imbue item.:P 2. Got a link? You bet. Though the reasoning is a little... The archivist's prayerbook ability (Heroes of Horror 83) states, "An archivist can also add spells found on scrolls containing divine spells to his prayerbook." Does this include domain spells found on scrolls? Yes. The archivists are masters of drawing power from esoteric holy sources. By definition, there are few things more esoteric than a cleric’s domain spells. Fireball is also available as a 3rd lv initiate of tzacchar (dragons of faerun) spell, IIRC. Good luck accessing that though...:D
Kyuketsukiouji 12-25-07, 07:38 PM	The Archivist is only powerful if people conveniently "forget" that whole "paying to get spells in your prayerbook" business. And don't start mentioning Blessed Books. If you want to "know all the spells", you'll still need to pay a ton of money's worth of Books, not to mention bribes to actually convince people to share spells with you. Especially if those people belong to unusual, out of the way classes or have access to rare domains. In actuality, the Archivist isn't any more impressive than a decently-made cleric, if if it has access to different spells.
Bopple 12-25-07, 07:44 PM	It is technically still a 3rd lv divine spell, so in theory at least, warlocks could still create scrolls of those spells using imbue item.:P Yeah, but it would be extremely hard to convince your DM into it. And most of all, you have to deal with RP awkwardness - why an archivist(a bookworm scholar dedicated to knowledge) would go such a long way to become a Sacred Exorcist(a purely religious & saintly figure in a religious order which also demands RP requirement), in the first place, if you really want to make good use of Divine Power.
archerpwr 12-25-07, 07:56 PM	To the people saying archivist can be curbed by the DM not letting the archivist access decent spells: I absolutely agree. To the people saying archivist is weaker than wizard or clerics in most games: I'd disagree. I'd say that's true where the DM is limiting the archivist, but not the wizard or cleric. In the typical game (ie DM doesn't excessively limit the archivists/wizards spell options) I'd put all three on the same level. In the game with a *very* easy going DM, I'd put the archivist above them both.
Cartigan 12-25-07, 07:57 PM	And don't start mentioning Blessed Books. I will mention it since it negates your original complaint: Boccob's Blessed Book. To the people saying archivist can be curbed by the DM not letting the archivist access decent spells: I absolutely agree. Nice little logical fallacy there. Shutting down the absurd argument that because of arbitrary rule interpretations makes all spells divine spells, the Archivist can cast them, is not "not letting the archivist access decent spells," it is shutting down your stupid argument.
archerpwr 12-25-07, 09:05 PM	I will mention it since it negates your original complaint: Boccob's Blessed Book. Nice little logical fallacy there. Shutting down the absurd argument that because of arbitrary rule interpretations makes all spells divine spells, the Archivist can cast them, is not "not letting the archivist access decent spells," it is shutting down your stupid argument. Let me rephrase: Archivists' power can be curbed directly by the DM far more than any other divine caster. This is the same manner in which wizards have their power curbed.
Cartigan 12-25-07, 09:33 PM	Let me rephrase: Archivists' power can be curbed directly by the DM far more than any other divine caster. This is the same manner in which wizards have their power curbed. Ah, yes, it can be curbed by the way of lack of divine scrolls.
danielinthewolvesden 12-25-07, 10:25 PM	Anyway back to OP, while an archivist is certainly a very powerful class potentially, its actual power-curve is completely subject to DM's decision, in most games. And if he is the healer of the party, it's even worse. All in all, while it's one of the top 5 theoretically, it's rarely as powerful as cleric or wizard, in real gaming. Sounds about right to me, based upon my experiences with the class.
archerpwr 12-25-07, 10:35 PM	Ah, yes, it can be curbed by the way of lack of divine scrolls. So my phrasing was accurate that time? I didn't type too fast to say what I mean? I'm trying to find something that we can agree on and not being sarcastic here.
JulesCARV 12-26-07, 12:35 AM	Okay. Archivists as typically played are... I'd say, a nice class. You can come up with theoretical arguments why they're massively powerful if you combine them with sacred exorcist and obscure domains and whatnot, and you can come up with theoretical arguments why they're fairly weak (if not horribly weak) if your DM never lets you have any scrolls and you're limited to your two free cleric spells per level. As they're usually played... maybe a bit weaker than the cleric or wizard, a bit ahead of the favored soul? I don't know, exactly. At any rate, I think they're good fun. They're the type who drags the gentle reposed bodies of monsters back to their labs to dissect them, and have intricate studies of their bodies in their notebooks that look like something out of Da Vinci's notes, or perhaps Grey's Anatomy. Or, for archivists on a slightly darker path, there's always vivisection, for when dead bodies aren't quite good enough. They can also be sort of Brother William of Baskerville (from The Name of the Rose) types -- everyone knows the above-board, official history of the Church of Wee Jas, but the archivist knows about the different heretical movements, the theology they preached, and even the socioeconomic forces which motivated them. An archivist could be an inquisitor, who uses his knowledge of heterodoxy to enforce orthodoxy within a religious establishment, or could be a freethinking, heterodox religious thinker, possibly with a rationalist bent, in his own right. Or possibly an archivist could be a scholastic religious thinker in the style of Thomas Aquinas. From creepy vivisectionist to freethinking religious scholar, there are just so many interesting possibilities suggested by the archivist. I definitely like it. Oh, and it's nice for psychic theurges and mystic theurges. I played an archivist/shaper for a while.
larry_the_titan 12-26-07, 10:08 AM	Actually, Divine spells are significantly less powerful than arcane spells. The divine equivilent of Fireball, if I remember right, is a seventh level spell, while Fireball itself is a third-level arcane spell. I can't think of any other examples, but I'm sure there are. However, Divine spells are more useful in non-combat situations than arcane. Divine spellcasters get all the buff spells early on, while Wizards and Sorcs have to wait longer to get them. They also get all the good healing spells, like Heal, Regeneration, etc. Ok, by the time 7th level spells are being used I have a couple suggestion that will break you of that divine spells aren't combat spells. Control winds can easily end combat which is something druids get. Firestorm can easily out do a fireball, Firestorm is another spell that druids get. If you go outside of core go after frostfell. Frostfell is one of the most nasty spells ever. Its save or die but not a death effect so things that are immune to death effects still are effected. And if they make the save they take 1d6 per caster level. Druids get access to it at 8th.
The_Shaman 12-26-07, 11:13 AM	Oh, the environment books (stormwrack, sandstorm, frostburn) certainly have some good divine spells. I'm partial to mummify myself: a lvl 6 save-or-die that deals a nice amount of damage and desiccates if you make the save; again doesn't have the death subtype. (Mass) Flesh to Salt isn't too bad either :)
JaronK 12-26-07, 07:42 PM	If a PrC from a 3.0 Supplement allows a class to cast arcane spells somewhat like divine, then the Archivist is thus allowed all Aracne spells too.:rolleyes: Funny. I've never seen that arguement. I have seen the one I've used recently, which is "there's a PrC from a 3.0 book which was grandfathered into 3.5 that actually can cast Sorcerer/Wizard spells as standard divine spells, therefor they exist as Divine spells, therefor if an Archivist can find (or have created) divine scrolls of those spells they can add them to their book." "Somewhat like divine" is clearly wrong, since Hexers actually just cast them as divine. The arguement also included the statement that there are other ways to do it, such as Clerics with the Complete Champion ability to add any one Sorcerer or Wizard spell per level to their spell lists as divine spells. But that's 3.0 too, right? Anyway, without a Warlock you'll have a tough time tracking down those spells anyway, which is why I suggested not having a Warlock unless your party is superpowered. JaronK
Cartigan 12-26-07, 08:04 PM	"Somewhat like divine" is clearly wrong, since Hexers actually just cast them as divine. Actually it says nothing of the sort. Hexer just gains a level of a previous spell casting class, he doesn't cast anything as anything specifically. And it most certainly doesn't say the bonus spells are cast as divine spells.
JaronK 12-26-07, 08:08 PM	A Cleric/Hexer is a divine caster. Unless specifically otherwise noted, all his spells are divine. Otherwise, there would be a note saying that the new spells couldn't be cast in armour. They are indeed divine. But the alternate class feature from Complete Champion that lets a cleric add any Sorc/Wiz spell from one of a few schools also helps, as do domain spells. The Southern Magician feat works too. Anyway, the point is that if you're actually playing an Archivist in a campaign, you don't want to try such tricks (or even Divine Metamagic) or you'll risk overwhelming the rest of the group. JaronK
Cartigan 12-26-07, 08:12 PM	Otherwise, there would be a note saying that the new spells couldn't be cast in armour. I have to say that is an unfair assumption. We could either assume you arn't being treated like an idiot by the omission, or they forgot it. That is why erratas exist.
JaronK 12-26-07, 08:35 PM	More to the point, they probably assumed that a divine caster getting a spell added to their spell list got it as a divine spell, just like a Dread Necromancer added a cleric necromancy spell to his list gets it as an arcane spell. Since that's how it's done with every other class, they probably assumed that players would understand it would be the same here too. JaronK
archerpwr 12-26-07, 08:35 PM	I have to say that is an unfair assumption. We could either assume you arn't being treated like an idiot by the omission, or they forgot it. That is why erratas exist. In any case: Favored of Bahamut/Tiamat: Class: Favored Soul ... At 12th level you learn one additional sorcerer spell as if it were a sorcerer spell...[/b] All sorcerer spells level 6 and under are open with favored of bahamut. Divine Magician Class: Cleric Benefit: You can add one first level abjuration, divination, or necromancy wizard spell to your cleric spell list. Each time you gain the ability to cast a new level of cleric spells, you can add a single wizard spell of the same level from one of those schools to your cleric spell list. We've just gotten all wizard spells from abjuration, divination, and necromancy here. Southern magician's text is arguable, so I won't bother. All those two options above don't include are: Bard spells (divine bard gives the whole list flat out) 7-9 evocation, transmutation, enchantment, conjuration, and universal spells. I'm not too much concerned. Most of the really broken spells are on domain lists to start with (PAO, polymorph, shapechange, timestop, etc.).