Archivist...overpowered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archivist...overpowered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
zierkiel
09-04-06, 02:55 AM does anyone think that the Archivist out of Heroes of Horror is rather overpowered when compared to a wizard? More spells per day, no spells known limit, more skill points, more hit points, light and medium armor proficiency, simple weapon proficiency, and oodles of nifty class abilities. I play a wizards rather offten but this class just seems to make it a joke. feedback appreciated, am i missing somthing.
JulesCARV
09-04-06, 03:18 AM Three things to keep in mind:

1. Archivists have bonus spells based on wisdom, but save DCs based on intelligence and require 10 + spell level intelligence to cast spells of a given level.

2. Divine scrolls are slightly rarer than arcane scrolls.

3. The game is balanced around the presumption that divine spellcasting is of lesser benefit than arcane spellcasting. Or, at least, that the cleric and druid lists are less powerful than the wizard/sorcerer list. Sorcerers, for example, have nothing but spellcasting and good will saves. By contrast, druids, clerics, and favored souls tend to get a lot of neat features. The archivist in many ways compares unfavorably to other divine casters, looking at things like base attack bonus and hit dice. I still love it, though.
Jackmojo
09-04-06, 03:24 AM I would say rather that, from the standpoint of class features, the wizard is sorely lacking (mostly due to the fact that no full caster class is bad/weak) particularly when compared to newer base classes (which tend to be chock full of nice features throughout their 20 levels)

Consider how much more the Archivist gives up should he choose to head into a pretige class.

Jack
zierkiel
09-08-06, 10:32 PM i never thought of it like that before, the wizards i practically [I]built[I] for prestige classes
RadicalTaoist
09-08-06, 10:50 PM Depends. They're hard to break...but if you get the right spells, the Archivist is second only to the Artificer.
Droken
09-12-06, 11:02 PM I have to completely agree that the archivist seems incredibly, undeniably powerful. I'm creating one now and in the process of such, am slowly beginning to understand their full scope of spell selection.
Silverthumb128
09-12-06, 11:23 PM Everything's broken when you build it right. There was even a thread about how Barbarian was broken, once.
StruckingFuggle
09-12-06, 11:28 PM I would say rather that, from the standpoint of class features, the wizard is sorely lacking (mostly due to the fact that no full caster class is bad/weak) particularly when compared to newer base classes (which tend to be chock full of nice features throughout their 20 levels)

Consider how much more the Archivist gives up should he choose to head into a pretige class.

Jack

You say that like it's a bad thing... :P

As for the Archivist, yes, it can be powerful. It can be very powerful. Especially if you have a Cleric with the Spell domain as a buddy. As for overpowered ... meh. It CAN be, but then, that really depends on how you play it. o.o

(finaly: bwahaha! you wouldn't happen to have a link to the "barbarian is overpowered!" thread, would you? *snerk*)
KingNeo
09-13-06, 12:17 AM The archivist in many ways compares unfavorably to other divine casters, looking at things like base attack bonus and hit dice. I still love it, though.

Not when you use the presemption that because domains use partically every spell in the game. |o| In such a case they would technically, but effectively, be able to gain every spell in the game. Which basically kills the wizard, no offense to all wizard fans out there (hey I'm one of them) but its true.

Hey it wasn't named again and again one of the most, if not the most, overpowered classes in all of D&D for nothing. |o|
Droken
09-13-06, 12:19 AM How does a cleric with the Spell domain help an archivist?
runestar
09-13-06, 12:32 AM How does a cleric with the Spell domain help an archivist?
I think he is referring to anyspell/greater anyspell, which does not work for an archivist, since the latter does not get domain slots.:P
Droken
09-13-06, 12:53 AM Aye I know of those spells.. just don't know how they're supposed to help.
StruckingFuggle
09-13-06, 01:06 AM I think he is referring to anyspell/greater anyspell, which does not work for an archivist, since the latter does not get domain slots.:P

They don't get domain slots, but if the cleric with the spell domain has scribe scroll. Just because it's a domain spell doesn't mean it can't be scribed on a scroll, and they can learn "any divine spell", can't they? Ergo... it works, unless the spells prepared in the Anyspell slots aren't divine spells.
__DnD4Life__
09-13-06, 01:30 AM They don't get domain slots, but if the cleric with the spell domain has scribe scroll. Just because it's a domain spell doesn't mean it can't be scribed on a scroll, and they can learn "any divine spell", can't they? Ergo... it works, unless the spells prepared in the Anyspell slots aren't divine spells.
im not sure of the wording, but I am pretty sure it goes something like this: "You can prepare any 2nd level or lower arcane spell as a 3rd level domain slot". The domain slot is a divine spell slot, so I would assume it makes it a divine spell. It is a strech, but so are some other things that happen. Like a 6th level cleric with 9th level spells.
epifreak
09-13-06, 02:26 AM Everything's broken when you build it right. There was even a thread about how Barbarian was broken, once.

Barbarian, hell. I've seen rogue, bard, fighter, monk, and warlock as "broken" classes. It seems that every class is "broken" in some way or another. I propose a new term to replace broken. In place of saying, "X class is broken", perhaps "these are the strengths of X class. other classes pale in comparison, when this class is taken out of game context, whereas others are left in it. For example, a wizard looks heinous in comparison with a fighter if 1 fight/day is assumed, or in a straight up, fair, toe-to-toe fight, the rogue is pretty pathetic next to the fighter."

Maybe it's not as catchy as "broken", but it is probably more accurate.
Clawhound
09-13-06, 01:20 PM There's broken, and then there's broken. Some things look better on paper than others.

Things that are broken by turning left three times and standing on your head are corner cases, and you always get stuck with those, no matter what you do. There ain't enough room to elucidate all possible rulings.

If something is broken by making a small choice and getting better than expected payback, then that's a worse problem. That's more a design issue than outright broken. In that sense, two-handed weapons bonuses are broken.

If something is broken because it opens the door to a myriad of other brokeness, then THAT'S BROKEN! Polymorph was broken.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zierkiel 09-04-06, 02:55 AM	does anyone think that the Archivist out of Heroes of Horror is rather overpowered when compared to a wizard? More spells per day, no spells known limit, more skill points, more hit points, light and medium armor proficiency, simple weapon proficiency, and oodles of nifty class abilities. I play a wizards rather offten but this class just seems to make it a joke. feedback appreciated, am i missing somthing.
JulesCARV 09-04-06, 03:18 AM	Three things to keep in mind: 1. Archivists have bonus spells based on wisdom, but save DCs based on intelligence and require 10 + spell level intelligence to cast spells of a given level. 2. Divine scrolls are slightly rarer than arcane scrolls. 3. The game is balanced around the presumption that divine spellcasting is of lesser benefit than arcane spellcasting. Or, at least, that the cleric and druid lists are less powerful than the wizard/sorcerer list. Sorcerers, for example, have nothing but spellcasting and good will saves. By contrast, druids, clerics, and favored souls tend to get a lot of neat features. The archivist in many ways compares unfavorably to other divine casters, looking at things like base attack bonus and hit dice. I still love it, though.
Jackmojo 09-04-06, 03:24 AM	I would say rather that, from the standpoint of class features, the wizard is sorely lacking (mostly due to the fact that no full caster class is bad/weak) particularly when compared to newer base classes (which tend to be chock full of nice features throughout their 20 levels) Consider how much more the Archivist gives up should he choose to head into a pretige class. Jack
zierkiel 09-08-06, 10:32 PM	i never thought of it like that before, the wizards i practically [I]built[I] for prestige classes
RadicalTaoist 09-08-06, 10:50 PM	Depends. They're hard to break...but if you get the right spells, the Archivist is second only to the Artificer.
Droken 09-12-06, 11:02 PM	I have to completely agree that the archivist seems incredibly, undeniably powerful. I'm creating one now and in the process of such, am slowly beginning to understand their full scope of spell selection.
Silverthumb128 09-12-06, 11:23 PM	Everything's broken when you build it right. There was even a thread about how Barbarian was broken, once.
StruckingFuggle 09-12-06, 11:28 PM	I would say rather that, from the standpoint of class features, the wizard is sorely lacking (mostly due to the fact that no full caster class is bad/weak) particularly when compared to newer base classes (which tend to be chock full of nice features throughout their 20 levels) Consider how much more the Archivist gives up should he choose to head into a pretige class. Jack You say that like it's a bad thing... :P As for the Archivist, yes, it can be powerful. It can be very powerful. Especially if you have a Cleric with the Spell domain as a buddy. As for overpowered ... meh. It CAN be, but then, that really depends on how you play it. o.o (finaly: bwahaha! you wouldn't happen to have a link to the "barbarian is overpowered!" thread, would you? snerk)
KingNeo 09-13-06, 12:17 AM	The archivist in many ways compares unfavorably to other divine casters, looking at things like base attack bonus and hit dice. I still love it, though. Not when you use the presemption that because domains use partically every spell in the game. \|o\| In such a case they would technically, but effectively, be able to gain every spell in the game. Which basically kills the wizard, no offense to all wizard fans out there (hey I'm one of them) but its true. Hey it wasn't named again and again one of the most, if not the most, overpowered classes in all of D&D for nothing. \|o\|
Droken 09-13-06, 12:19 AM	How does a cleric with the Spell domain help an archivist?
runestar 09-13-06, 12:32 AM	How does a cleric with the Spell domain help an archivist? I think he is referring to anyspell/greater anyspell, which does not work for an archivist, since the latter does not get domain slots.:P
Droken 09-13-06, 12:53 AM	Aye I know of those spells.. just don't know how they're supposed to help.
StruckingFuggle 09-13-06, 01:06 AM	I think he is referring to anyspell/greater anyspell, which does not work for an archivist, since the latter does not get domain slots.:P They don't get domain slots, but if the cleric with the spell domain has scribe scroll. Just because it's a domain spell doesn't mean it can't be scribed on a scroll, and they can learn "any divine spell", can't they? Ergo... it works, unless the spells prepared in the Anyspell slots aren't divine spells.
__DnD4Life__ 09-13-06, 01:30 AM	They don't get domain slots, but if the cleric with the spell domain has scribe scroll. Just because it's a domain spell doesn't mean it can't be scribed on a scroll, and they can learn "any divine spell", can't they? Ergo... it works, unless the spells prepared in the Anyspell slots aren't divine spells. im not sure of the wording, but I am pretty sure it goes something like this: "You can prepare any 2nd level or lower arcane spell as a 3rd level domain slot". The domain slot is a divine spell slot, so I would assume it makes it a divine spell. It is a strech, but so are some other things that happen. Like a 6th level cleric with 9th level spells.
epifreak 09-13-06, 02:26 AM	Everything's broken when you build it right. There was even a thread about how Barbarian was broken, once. Barbarian, hell. I've seen rogue, bard, fighter, monk, and warlock as "broken" classes. It seems that every class is "broken" in some way or another. I propose a new term to replace broken. In place of saying, "X class is broken", perhaps "these are the strengths of X class. other classes pale in comparison, when this class is taken out of game context, whereas others are left in it. For example, a wizard looks heinous in comparison with a fighter if 1 fight/day is assumed, or in a straight up, fair, toe-to-toe fight, the rogue is pretty pathetic next to the fighter." Maybe it's not as catchy as "broken", but it is probably more accurate.
Clawhound 09-13-06, 01:20 PM	There's broken, and then there's broken. Some things look better on paper than others. Things that are broken by turning left three times and standing on your head are corner cases, and you always get stuck with those, no matter what you do. There ain't enough room to elucidate all possible rulings. If something is broken by making a small choice and getting better than expected payback, then that's a worse problem. That's more a design issue than outright broken. In that sense, two-handed weapons bonuses are broken. If something is broken because it opens the door to a myriad of other brokeness, then THAT'S BROKEN! Polymorph was broken.