Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GreyGriffin 12-02-05, 04:58 PM	Okay, so explain the Archivist to me. A wizard can't heal. The game goes way, way out of its way to hammer this point home: arcane magic can't restore Hit Points, because despite the fact that they can Plane Shift and Gate to the positive energy plane, they are somehow prohibited from tapping Positive Energy. Right. Inane, but I can live with that. But along comes the Archivist, a Divine Caster, who is basically a Divine Wizard. But, on top of all the foibles of Wizardry, the Archivist taps into the singular core of the Wizard class--its unlimited spell list--and then one-ups it with not only actual class abilities, but the entire cleric spell list to boot! Oh, and any other spell list you can grab a scroll of! So tell me, how's this fair to the Wizard?
SebastianHero 12-02-05, 05:04 PM	If you are referring to the Archivist class from Heroes of Horror then your description of the class's spellcasting features is incorrect. On page 82 under spellcasting, it is stated that the archivist casts divine spells drawn primarily from the cleric spell list. Yes, archivists gather and prepare spells like wizards but that's where the similarly ends.
DM_Dracophile 12-02-05, 05:07 PM	Doesn't it specifically state that they can only learn Divine spells? That should limit their overall list to Cleric/Druid/Ranger/Pally. Plus, I'm not sure they get Domains at all. Further, don't they have to split their stats b/n Intelligence and Wisdom? I don't have it in front of me though, so I may be way off :D
GreyGriffin 12-02-05, 05:09 PM	Aha, I have misread. It does indeed include the caveat of Divine spells. Although, technically, that does include every single domain spell, ugh.
Milo HoBo 12-02-05, 05:10 PM	THey can't copy arcane spells, and unlike other divine casters, must have a personal copy to carry around. Other than that, you're right, a little too much to me as well. However, if you are a DM, do your best to limit the capabilities. If you're a PC, kindly request that the DM carefully looks at the class before introducing that class (whether as a PC or NPC). I wanted to design something similar, but with far fewer benefits (no cross-class spell lists, for one). However, some may find that the archavist is too weak to full-fill the roll of a cleric. With a small AC and fewer hit points, it is hard to stand behind your fighter and heal him. You also can't spontaneously cast cure spells.
DM_Dracophile 12-02-05, 05:18 PM	Hm. Seems to me that, other than a couple neat class abilities, the Archivist is far weaker than the Cleric. They don't have the unlimited spell list every day, have to carry a book around in addition to the holy symbol/focus required for most divine magics, and are slouches in combat.
savant_warlord13 12-02-05, 05:25 PM	Okay, so explain the Archivist to me. A wizard can't heal. The game goes way, way out of its way to hammer this point home: arcane magic can't restore Hit Points, because despite the fact that they can Plane Shift and Gate to the positive energy plane, they are somehow prohibited from tapping Positive Energy. Right. Inane, but I can live with that. But along comes the Archivist, a Divine Caster, who is basically a Divine Wizard. But, on top of all the foibles of Wizardry, the Archivist taps into the singular core of the Wizard class--its unlimited spell list--and then one-ups it with not only actual class abilities, but the entire cleric spell list to boot! Oh, and any other spell list you can grab a scroll of! So tell me, how's this fair to the Wizard? not true, bards can heal, and they use arcane magic
General_Ridley 12-02-05, 06:03 PM	not true, bards can heal, and they use arcane magic yeah. Arcane magic can only heal in the event of a bard or a changeling caster with the Recaster PrC who could add Heal to her spell list.
MysteryGilgamesh 12-02-05, 06:50 PM	Hm. Seems to me that, other than a couple neat class abilities, the Archivist is far weaker than the Cleric. They don't have the unlimited spell list every day, have to carry a book around in addition to the holy symbol/focus required for most divine magics, and are slouches in combat. You're kidding, right? Let's see... Can learn any divine spell with the right scroll. Most every wizard spell shows up as a divine spell, due to the million and one domains out there, plus Anyspell and Greater Anyspell. Not to mention the tons of PrC's which have divine spells out there. Split casting stats is no big deal, as Int is the primary. They can make scrolls, so their spells per day aren't so limited. They get divine spells. You know, the ones that take anyone and turn them into a lean, mean, killing machine? Low BAB and fair HP don't matter much when two spells suddenly add a monster HP, Str, and Con bonus, plus gives you a fighter BAB. An Archivist isn't a weak cleric...It's a better cleric, and better wizard than a wizard, too.
GreyGriffin 12-02-05, 06:50 PM	Hm. Seems to me that, other than a couple neat class abilities, the Archivist is far weaker than the Cleric. They don't have the unlimited spell list every day, have to carry a book around in addition to the holy symbol/focus required for most divine magics, and are slouches in combat. So what does that say about Wizards vs. Clerics? (Gah, changing the subject. Heh heh.)
farfairer 12-02-05, 06:53 PM	As people have pointed out already Archavists cast divine spells. They also have spell books (like a wizard), and follow all the rules for needing a spell book. Archavists (unlike Clerics, Druids, Rangers, and Paladins) need 8 hours of rest like a wizard in order to memorize spells. Archavists also are split Int/Wis casters. The Archavist's main spell list wich incompases any spell they gain for going up in level comes from the Cleric list. Archavists do not gain domains, and have no access to domain abilities, nor do they gain Turn Undead. The cool ability that the Archavist has, though is the ability to learn via scroll only any divine spell regardless of list. This means that an Archavist can learn Druid, Ranger, Paladin, Shujenga, Blackguard, and Domain Specific spells if he can get a scroll of that spell and succesfully scribe the scroll into his spell book.
Rabid Dire Wolverine 12-02-05, 07:24 PM	A wizard can't heal. Compltely untrue. Bards can heal, bard makes sroll, wizard copies scroll, voila, healing wizard. At least I believe that's how it works. And, the Archivist can not oly get the domain wizard spells, but also Adept spells are divine and contain much of the wiz spell list. So without a careful DM, I do believe that this is overpowered.
Nephlite 12-02-05, 08:28 PM	Compltely untrue. Bards can heal, bard makes sroll, wizard copies scroll, voila, healing wizard. At least I believe that's how it works. And, the Archivist can not oly get the domain wizard spells, but also Adept spells are divine and contain much of the wiz spell list. So without a careful DM, I do believe that this is overpowered. The NPC class Witch in the DMG I think are Arcane: They can also heal.
BlaineTog 12-02-05, 08:39 PM	Compltely untrue. Bards can heal, bard makes sroll, wizard copies scroll, voila, healing wizard. At least I believe that's how it works.No, it doesn't work that way,
DM_Dracophile 12-02-05, 09:15 PM	It most certainly does not. Scrolls are dependant on the user having said spell on their spell list. Further, I'm not certain that Domain Spell Lists qualify as Divine Spells..but you're right. The RAW certainly would allow for them using Domain spells from scrolls though :D If you allow for that, it certainly does add a larger spell list.
ksbsnowowl 12-02-05, 09:24 PM	They also have spell books (like a wizard), and follow all the rules for needing a spell book.No they don't. An Archivist must spend the time and make the checks associated with a spellbook, but their prayer books do not require the gold piece expenditure a spellbook does.
DM_Dracophile 12-02-05, 09:32 PM	Huh. Well, personally, I'd have any PC Archivists treat their prayerbooks in all ways like a spellbook.
Kyuketsukiouji 12-02-05, 09:45 PM	I dream of the day bards get their own magic type. It would stop that annoying "arcane magic can't heal" debate once and for all...
farfairer 12-02-05, 10:46 PM	Compltely untrue. Bards can heal, bard makes sroll, wizard copies scroll, voila, healing wizard. At least I believe that's how it works. No. That is not how it works. In order to use a scroll, or copy it into your spell book the spell must first apear on your class list. Thus a charcter with only levels of wizard can never learn, use a scroll of (without Use magic device) or copy into his spell book Cure Light Wounds. No they don't. An Archivist must spend the time and make the checks associated with a spellbook, but their prayer books do not require the gold piece expenditure a spellbook does. Where does it say that. I don't have the book infront of me, but I could have sworn that it said that the Archavist prayer book followed all the rules for a wizard's spell book. And I might be in the minority here, but I don't think that having potential access to all divine spells makes Archavists unbalanced. Remember when an Archavist goes up in level he can only choose spells from the main Cleric list. Any other spell he wants to know he must first find a scroll of and copy into his book. So in the instance of a domain spell the Archavist will most likely need to find a Cleric who has that domain, and the scribe scroll feat who is willing to allow him access to the spell. And the Archavist doesn't automaticly know all Cleric spells, so he can only choose from those in his book.
Votan 12-02-05, 11:54 PM	So in the instance of a domain spell the Archavist will most likely need to find a Cleric who has that domain, and the scribe scroll feat who is willing to allow him access to the spell. Given some of the amazing choices on domain spell lists, this doesn't seem to be extremely comforting. As fas as RAW is concerned, if there is a cleric with the spell on his domain list then there will probably be a scroll for sale (even if a bit of seachign is required).
ksbsnowowl 12-03-05, 12:48 AM	Where does it say that. I don't have the book infront of me, but I could have sworn that it said that the Archavist prayer book followed all the rules for a wizard's spell book.Nope, from the Heroes of Horror preview (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) (and I know for a fact it is the same in the book):Prayerbook: Unlike a cleric, an archivist does not receive his daily spell complement from whatever deity or cosmic force he worships. Rather, he must seek out and collect new spells much as a wizard does, but from such esoteric sources as holy tablets, ancient steles, or other magical scriptures. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his prayerbook except for read magic, which archivists can prepare from memory. An archivist begins play with a prayerbook containing all 0-level cleric spells plus three 1st-level cleric spells of the player's choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the archivist has, the prayerbook has an additional 1st-level cleric spell. At each new class level, the archivist gains two new cleric spells for his prayerbook; these can be of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new archivist level). At any time, an archivist can also add spells found on scrolls containing divine spells to his prayerbook, but he must make any rolls and spend the time required (see Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook on page 178 of the Player's Handbook). The archivist can learn and thus prepare nonclerical divine spells in this fashion but the two free spells he gains for advancing in class level must be selected from the cleric spell list.He must make any rolls and spend the time required. Nowhere does it say he must spend the money that a wizard does on arcane spells. It mentions the two things he must do, and points you to the spot in the PHB where those two things are expanded upon. Just because that same section lists another requirement for a different class that uses a different type of magic does not mean the Archivist is also subject to that requirement. So in the instance of a domain spell the Archavist will most likely need to find a Cleric who has that domain, and the scribe scroll feat who is willing to allow him access to the spell.Nope. He only need find a cleric willing to cast the spell for him. That cleric need not have the scribe scroll feat. From the 3.5 SRD (Magic Items I - bottom of page 4):CREATING MAGIC ITEMS To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation. Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).So, the Archivist has the Scribe Scroll feat. He asks a cleric to assit him in making a scroll (by casting the requisite spell) once each for the 1 to 4 days required to craft the scroll (dependant upon its cost). The Archivist is the crafter and expends the XP; the cleric merely casts the spell. Not a particularily hard thing to have happen.
a_psh 12-03-05, 12:50 AM	Okay, now take away the non-core domains: still broken?
farfairer 12-03-05, 03:15 AM	Nowhere does it say he must spend the money that a wizard does on arcane spells. It mentions the two things he must do, and points you to the spot in the PHB where those two things are expanded upon. Just because that same section lists another requirement for a different class that uses a different type of magic does not mean the Archivist is also subject to that requirement. OK, you're right about the prayer book, and scribing cost. Nope. He only need find a cleric willing to cast the spell for him. That cleric need not have the scribe scroll feat. From the 3.5 SRD (Magic Items I - bottom of page 4):So, the Archivist has the Scribe Scroll feat. He asks a cleric to assit him in making a scroll (by casting the requisite spell) once each for the 1 to 4 days required to craft the scroll (dependant upon its cost). The Archivist is the crafter and expends the XP; the cleric merely casts the spell. Not a particularily hard thing to have happen. Thats fine for me. Since the Archavist starts with Scribe Scroll automaticly he can spend XP to learn a spell. I don't see a problem with that, as long as he can find someone willing to cast the spell into a scroll. See, you have to understand the way I look at it. Not every cleric/druid/shamen/spirit shamen/paladin/blackguard/shugenja/favored soul/healer/... on the planet is going to be willing to make a scroll or even cast their domain spell so the archavist can make a scroll of it. I equate it to what one of my PCs had to go through in order to get a domain drought from a cleric of Tritherion. I had to prove to the cleric that I was worthy of having access to spells from a domain that in that game only Tritherion can grant: Liberation. It took me 15 minutes of pure RP to convince the NPC that I was worthy of what he considered a great gift, and that I wouldn't abuse using it. I see archavists in the same way. Unless a scroll (or sdimilar) is found as treasure, those rare spells the character wants are going to be dificult to find at best. And as I said befor does it really matter what spells a non-spontanious caster has access to? Preperation and number of spell slots seem to be a limiting factor in and of itself to me.
Seeker of Undeath 12-03-05, 10:25 AM	Okay, so explain the Archivist to me.Imagine a Wizard that casts divine spells from the Cleric general list, has better skill points but has to use them on Knowledge or miss out on its primary class ability (excluding spellcasting). It has more base slots per day than a Wizard, however its bonus spells are calculated using an ability score other than the one with which it casts. If it never encounters scrolls/items, it will never cast a spell that's not on the general Cleric list (this doesn't take into account PrCs or feats).A wizard can't heal.It can if it's a Warforged or Greenstar Adept or other such construct. One could also make use of the Extra Spell feat or the Rainbow Servant class (apparently only useful to Wizards at this point).The game goes way, way out of its way to hammer this point home: arcane magic can't restore Hit Points, because despite the fact that they can Plane Shift and Gate to the positive energy plane, they are somehow prohibited from tapping Positive Energy.If you know anything about the positive energy plane, you know that going there is getting too much of a good thing, and you'll explode/be incinerated. Right. Inane, but I can live with that.Something like the start of this thread so far... I'm guessing you just don't like that only divine magic, given by gods and/or the natural world, can be used to heal creatures since such forces are what brought creatures into being. Arcane magic manipulates the world around it. Divine magic is a part of it. It's anything but a small difference.But along comes the Archivist, a civine caster, who is basically a divine Wizard.Mechanically speaking, yes to an extent. RP-wise I'd rethink that for about a month.But, on top of all the foibles of Wizardry, the Archivist taps into the singular core of the Wizard class--its unlimited spell list--and then one-ups it with not only actual class abilities, but the entire cleric spell list to boot!And without domains thrown into the mix that's a pretty short list, barring use of many splat books.Oh, and any other spell list you can grab a scroll of!Any other divine, yes. Also this depends upon what access your DM gives you to such things. Essentially the DM still has you by the :censored: Once again it's nothing new. The Wizard, whose spell list is theoretically limitless, has always been fixed by what the DM makes available.So tell me, how's this fair to the Wizard?*shrug* Fair that the Wizard could be outdone given the right combination of a good player and a generous DM? It's as fair as normal, because it requires favorable circumstance. If you were running through, say, the World's Largest Dungeon or some such and lacked the time/resources to add new spells to your spellbook/prayerbook then you'd have to rely on what you gain by virtue of leveling and magic items. In such a situation an Archivist has only Cleric spells (no domain spells). That's a very good spell list IMO, but it does have a thoroughly different style and focus than does the Wizard list. It's potent but limited just like so many things. This thread seems to be a knee-jerk reaction done prior to any thought or analysis beyond the impressive numbers and possibilities that the Archivist brings to the table. It reminds me of the Warlock really. In theory a Warlock can cast on par with every other caster via UMD, but we all know that that's resource/time dependent. In practice many have been happy or saddened by the 'lock. The same has happened with the Archivist. I'll note that I never see builds centered around it save for the occasional Wizard/Archivist/MysticTheurge. I never see it done stand alone or as the center point to a build. Similarly I seldom see Favored Soul by itself. Once again it's got some great points on paper, but it's not necessarily grand in all out play.
MysteryGilgamesh 12-03-05, 12:42 PM	I'll note that I never see builds centered around it save for the occasional Wizard/Archivist/MysticTheurge. I never see it done stand alone or as the center point to a build. Possibly because builds almost never use all of a base class. But here is a really simple, surprisingly effective build for ya'. Archivist 11/Sacred Exorcist 1/Divine Oracle 2/Contemplative 6. You get your turning so you can abuse Divine Metamagic (Persistant), three domains (two of which are your choice), access to the best Archivist ability, access to all divine spells ever (and if in FR, access to all arcane spells of 5th level or less), and you can wear mithral heavy armor and a large steel shield with no problems whatsoever. And this is a simple, easy build, and requires just one feat to pull off. I'm sure anyone with more than the minute it took me to throw this together, can make something a Hell of a lot more powerful, and this already kicks the cleric right in the teeth.
Cadfan 12-03-05, 01:07 PM	Some classes are campaign specific. If you take them out of the water they're meant for, they become either overpowered, or more likely, underpowered. The ability of the archivist to copy down any divine spell he/she finds is, I am 99% certain, in there because of its thematic value. The archivist is a researcher in a horrific campaign. Along the way through the campaign, the archivist is likely to uncover dark, dark secrets. These are easily represented by evil divine spells the archivist discovers. Allowing the archivist to learn these unusual spells can help represent his slow fall into madness. Which was the entire point, right? That being said, sure, you could abuse this if the reason you select the class is to munchkin it up. If you conclude that domain spells can be scribed onto scrolls and transferred to the archivist, its instantly overpowered, even using only core material, because many domain spells are higher level spells moved down to lower levels, or arcane spells moved to the cleric. The balance for this with the cleric is that the cleric can only cast each of these once per day. The archivist would have no such restriction. But I have trouble seeing that happen in a horrific campaign, because such a campaign would be unlikely to have the "unlimited magic shop" effect necessary to make this work.
Regulas 12-03-05, 01:20 PM	Ugh silly people. Ive played archievests before (twice) and there far from powerfull, infact there definatly weaker then a wizard, if your talking about power at least. ALOT of Arcane spells are domain divine, but the really powerfull ones like fireball and the like those are the ones that are arcane only, infact having onyl divine spells has proved to be such a limitation i actulay have to beg my DM to let me have a few arcane spells. The only reason i play em is cause I LOVE the style. The GOOD dabler in dark things. Also remeber you have to bloody divide your stats bewteen wisdom and intellegence, plus you ONLY get non-cleric spells from research I.E. unless you have a divine caster in your group who has the spells then its TOTALLY up to the DM as to what non-cleric spells you'll get. People when they come up with these rediculacsly overpowerd builds always seem to forget that THERES A BLOODY DM YOU IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Archivests may SEEM powerfull at first glance, but if you actulay bother to properly analyse and far more importantly PLAY one you'll find they arnt the gods you seem to think they are. Oh and they also dont get familiars.
Blaque 12-03-05, 02:39 PM	See, the spells and the special abiliites don't weird me out because its flavorful for the spells, and the extra stuff makes up for no metamagic feats or a familiar. What I'm annoyed with is that they get so much more. - More skill points for an Int-Based caster. - Better hit die. - Better weapon and armor proficiencies. - Two good saves. I mean, honeslty, I'd of made them a bit mroe wizardly in their fear for their lives. No armor, d4 hit die, and only good WIll save maeks a lot more sense for the classes ideas. It makes up for your ability to cast more spells technically then the Wizard can get, a nice useful special, and all that. I might even keep the Int+4 if the hd and other stuff was lowered, since they need the skills to make their other schtick useful. Just my thoughts. Atleast its how I'd prolly introduce them in my future games. Stuff.
furious kender 12-03-05, 03:31 PM	But remember, the archivist is a divine caster with healing spells. Meaning that in most parties they probably will be the only healer. This means that they probably will have the problem clerics of old used to have: most of their slots are taken up by healing spells. Assuming they are the equal or slightly beyond a wizard in offensive possibilities (which I doubt), how strong are they going to be if a third to half of their slots are taken up by healing spells? Of course they could take the feat spontaneous healer, but that takes up a feat. Also, take into consideration that if they are not close to a magic shop, their extra spells per level will probably be at least half will be taken up by healing spells unless there is another healer in the party.
Seeker of Undeath 12-03-05, 07:40 PM	Possibly because builds almost never use all of a base class.I know. I seldom do that either. Did you have a point?But here is a really simple, surprisingly effective build for ya'. Archivist 11/Sacred Exorcist 1/Divine Oracle 2/Contemplative 6. You get your turning so you can abuse Divine Metamagic (Persistant), three domains (two of which are your choice), access to the best Archivist ability, access to all divine spells ever (and if in FR, access to all arcane spells of 5th level or less), and you can wear mithral heavy armor and a large steel shield with no problems whatsoever. And this is a simple, easy build, and requires just one feat to pull off. I'm sure anyone with more than the minute it took me to throw this together, can make something a Hell of a lot more powerful, and this already kicks the cleric right in the teeth.That was the first and last Archivist build to be thrown up on the CO boards. I'm glad you remember it. It's definitely competitive. I can't say it beats on the Cleric very hard though. As for the lack of Wizard-like spells, the Adept helps round things out nicely. Other than that finding scrolls of spells from domains does the trick. The issue is getting a hold of it en masse. Once again we're back to DM-controlled elements. In the end I find the Archivist like most other classes: very nice but not earth-shattering. It's definitely got power. I just found the "omg itz so BR0K3N!!!111" response to be unfounded. It's a good piece of material, but it won't take over your group's gaming sessions. Enjoy it.
Quirriff 12-03-05, 09:11 PM	- More skill points for an Int-Based caster. And to use their class abilities, they must spend those skill points on knowledge skills. - Better hit die. - Better weapon and armor proficiencies. Worse Hit Die than a Cleric, worse weapon and armor proficiencies. No access to entire cleric list, no turn undead, no spontanious casting of spells, no spell mastery, No omph spells (Arcane have omph).