Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pmurray@bigpond.com 10-22-05, 02:29 AM	Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. It seems to me that gaining a level of archmage does not mean that when you gain a another level of Wiz, you gain spell slots at a higer level. In other words, if you take archmage, you wind up with more spell slots, not less. In particular, by taking Acm you can wind up with more than 4 slots per spell level. For instance, say you are a Wiz 15. Let's say you then take 2 levels of Acm, and another 2 levels of Wiz. At the acm levels, you will earn spell slots as if you had gone from wiz 15 to wiz 16 (7&8). At the wiz levels, you earn spell slots as normal (7&8) and then (6&9). CL 15 - Wiz 15/Acm 0 - spells 4/4/4/4/4/4/3/2/1 CL 16 - Wiz 15/Acm 1 - spells 4/4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2 CL 17 - Wiz 15/Acm 2 - spells 4/4/4/4/4/4/3/4/3 CL 18 - Wiz 16/Acm 2 - spells 4/4/4/4/4/4/3/5/4 CL 19 - Wiz 17/Acm 2 - spells 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/5/4/1 Now, of course you subtract from this the spell levels that you lose by taking High Arcana. But you still wind up ahead. If you take mastery of shaping and mastery of elements, you wind up with 4/4/4/4/4/4/3/5/3/1 instead of 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/3/3 at level 19 The RAW state that you get no other benefit (caster level HD, SR mod etc), and this seemed a bit of a raw deal. But this interpretation - that ranks in Archmage do not affect spell progression in Wiz - balances things a bit. You get more slots, and continue to get them, but you have to wait to get higher level spells if you do it before level 17. So, the thing to do would be to take Archmage at those Wiz levels where you get an N and an N-1 level spell: Wiz level 13 (6&7), Wiz level 15 (7&8), and Wiz level 17 (8&9). If you are going to go epic, you can leave your Wiz level at 19 and just pack on levels of Acm. Let's say you take "spell power" every time so as your caster-level related abilities continue to increase, and lets say that if you have no 5th level slots to sacrifice, you can sacrifice a higher level slot. Your spell progression from 19 will look like this: Wiz 19/Acm 0 - 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/3/3 Wiz 19/Acm 1 - 4/4/4/4/4/3/4/4/4/4 Wiz 19/Acm 2 - 4/4/4/4/4/2/4/4/5/5 Wiz 19/Acm 3 - 4/4/4/4/4/1/4/4/6/6 Wiz 19/Acm 4 - 4/4/4/4/4/0/4/4/7/7 Wiz 19/Acm 5 - 4/4/4/4/4/0/3/4/8/8 Wiz 19/Acm 6 - 4/4/4/4/4/0/2/4/9/9 Wiz 19/Acm 7 - 4/4/4/4/4/0/1/4/10/10 Wiz 19/Acm 8 - 4/4/4/4/4/0/0/4/11/11 Wiz 19/Acm 9 - 4/4/4/4/4/0/0/3/12/12 The benefit of taking the class at level 19 is that you get one extra level 9 slot, and one other spell slot (in effect) moves from 5th to 8th level. Now that's worth doing! Of course, you don't get epic magic but I don't know how that works.
BlaineTog 10-22-05, 02:36 AM	You are in error.
pmurray@bigpond.com 10-22-05, 02:39 AM	You are in error. "the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level"
BlaineTog 10-22-05, 02:43 AM	Taking a level of archmage doesn't effect your spell progression, excepting the spell slots lost from High Arcana. That's simply how it works. Period.
Silverthumb128 10-22-05, 02:52 AM	OK, I'm not really too keen on reading all that right now, but I think you're making this far too complicated. The amount of text itself makes it seem to me that you're putting too much thought into it. To help you map it out, I think instead of jumping into epic level spell progressions(which you've already claimed to know little about, I add, scoldingly), you should simply start with a determined character level, like 20. And go from there. Like I said, I think you're making too much of it, word-wise, and that'll screw ya in the end.
Gnarl 10-22-05, 11:29 AM	Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class Basicaly, here's what this means: You're a wizard 13/archmage 2, open you player's handbook and check out how many spell slots a straight 15th level wizard would get. That's how many you get as a wizard 13/archmage 2. If you're wizard 14/archmage 3, read the 16th level wizard line. And so on. in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. This one means that if you are a wizard 13/sorcerer 2/archmage 3, you would consult the wizard 15 line and the sorcerer 2 line in your player's hanbook. Unlike other arcane prestige classes, you have an additional restriction on the arcane class you get to add caster levels to. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. That thing refers to enhanced familiar abilities, bonus feats etc... So a wizard 13/archmage 2 would have: Spell slots as a level 15 wizard The familiar of a level 13 wizard 2 bonus feats for wizard levels (and not 3 despite the 15th level wizard spell slots).
Arkonth 10-22-05, 12:07 PM	Blainetog, I beleive your confusing the Archmage and the Hierophant classes. The Archmage gains wizard casting levels every level and may sacrifice spell slots for high arcana every level. The hierophant gains no new spells, but gains a special ability every level.
BlaineTog 10-22-05, 01:02 PM	Blainetog, I beleive your confusing the Archmage and the Hierophant classes. The Archmage gains wizard casting levels every level and may sacrifice spell slots for high arcana every level. The hierophant gains no new spells, but gains a special ability every level.I know this. What did I say that was different, exactly?
pmurray@bigpond.com 10-22-05, 07:23 PM	Basicaly, here's what this means: You're a wizard 13/archmage 2, open you player's handbook and check out how many spell slots a straight 15th level wizard would get. That's how many you get as a wizard 13/archmage 2. If you're wizard 14/archmage 3, read the 16th level wizard line. There is no justification in the text for this interpretation. That is simply not what it says. At all. You are pulling words out of thin air. The text does not say that "caster levels stack with that class for purpose of determining spell slots". In fact, the text goes out of its way to say that Acm does not stack with Wiz in any way at all. No "damage dice or range" or "caster level checks" unless you take Spell power. The only interaction is that you are awarded extra Wiz slots (if the class in which you can cast 7th level arcane spells is Wiz) as if you had gone up a level in that class. If you are a Wiz 14, then "the class in which you can cast 7th-level spells" is Wiz. Wiz 14. If you are Wiz 14/Acm 1, then "the class in which you can cast 7th-level spells" is still Wiz. Wiz 14. This one means that if you are a wizard 13/sorcerer 2/archmage 3, you would consult the wizard 15 line and the sorcerer 2 line in your player's hanbook. A Wiz 13/Sor 2 cannot cast 7th level spells. Wiz and Sor levels do not stack AFAIK.
BlaineTog 10-22-05, 08:09 PM	There is no justification in the text for this interpretation. That is simply not what it says. At all. You are pulling words out of thin air.No, I'm sorry, but that is exactly what it says. EDIT: Actually, Gnarl made a small addition mistake (ie wiz 14/arch3 =/= wiz 16). A Wiz 13/Sor 2 cannot cast 7th level spells.Uh... yes. Yes it can.
Esponer 10-22-05, 08:42 PM	A Wiz 13/Sor 2 cannot cast 7th level spells. Wiz and Sor levels do not stack AFAIK. No offence, but you might want to consider dropping this subject and getting away from the computer screen. I think you've been staring at numbers long enough that you're making rather silly mistakes: A wizard can cast... 0 level spells at 1st level. 1st level spells at 1st level. 2nd level spells at 3rd level. 3rd level spells at 5th level. 4th level spells at 7th level. 5th level spells at 9th level. 6th level spells at 11th level. 7th level spells at 13th level. 8th level spells at 15th level. 9th level spells at 17th level. Sorcerer and wizard levels won't stack, but a 13th level wizard can cast 7th level spells. As for the rest of this... For now at least I'll leave it to everyone else to explain why you're mistaken.
strenoth 10-22-05, 09:02 PM	Gnarl explained it right. and it's how allt he NPCs are built by WotC too.
pmurray@bigpond.com 10-22-05, 09:29 PM	No offence, but you might want to consider dropping this subject and getting away from the computer screen. I think you've been staring at numbers long enough that you're making rather silly mistakes: Yup - I skipped over the "7" and read "9". As for the rest of this... For now at least I'll leave it to everyone else to explain why you're mistaken. I look forward to it.
BlaineTog 10-22-05, 10:08 PM	I look forward to it.I'm sorry, but the mistake you're making is so empirical that there's really no way of talking about it in simple terms to help explain exactly how you're wrong. Wizard 15/Archamage 20 and Wizard 20 both have exactly the same spell progression (ignoring the spell slots lost from High Arcana, of course).
Esponer 10-22-05, 10:19 PM	I look forward to it. Okay. Here. Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day. Analysis of meaning "The character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level." The slightly problematic part of this sentence is "in which he could cast 7th-level spells...", which seems like an unnecessary addition. But is it? It clarifies that the previous half of the sentence can only apply to a spellcasting class in which he could already cast 7th-level spells. This is a clarification to prevent something you can usually do in such prestige classes – qualify with 7th level wizard spells, and then increase your hexblade spells. This addition to the sentence makes it absolutely clear that the archmage prestige class represents mastery of an arcane spellcasting class. It doesn't give you more options providing you're already significantly powerful. It's quite sensible really. It makes no sense to be able to advance your hexblade spells while taking levels in archmage. The archmage's requirements show what is required to begin the mastery of arcane magic which is called High Arcana. While it's not specifically restricted, it makes perfect sense if High Arcana can only apply to that one spellcaster progression with which you qualified. It also makes sense that you'd not be becoming better with hexblade spells while gaining High Arcana which is, in terms of flavour, geared towards enhancing the spellcaster progression with which you qualified for the class. You'll notice that the end of the description says that if you can cast 7th-level spells in two classes, you must choose one. This serves as clarification. The bit about 7th-level was to show that Archmage could only advance an "advanced" spellcasting progression, and not a weak one. Simply put, the most logical interpretation of the addition to the sentence is to explain that the archmage gets better with his "masterful" spell progression, not with some pathetic aside which he's toying with. The archmage flavour text explains they don't like to multiclass, so this feature ensures they're restricted if they try to do so. The very fact that the sentence reads "...gains... as if he had gained a level in... arcane spellcasting class" explains that you're wrong about your interpretation that you essentially repeat level 13 over and over. You effectively gain a level in an arcane spellcasting class for the purposes of spells per day/spells known. It says so. Nowhere does it attempt to indicate that you gain the same level over and over. Furthermore, do you really think that if that's what they meant, they wouldn't have clarified it? The SRD does make things painstakingly clear if it's even the slightest bit odd. And the concept of repeating the same level over and over is extremely unusual. Why would they hide such a thing deep in the wording? (Not that there's anything to find here - it says it adds a level, so it adds a level: it doesn't repeat a level.) But it doesn't say you gain caster levels! This is another point that is slightly unrelated, but seems to be another misconception you've made: that the archmage doesn't gain caster levels, and thus durations, spell effectiveness in general, checks to overcome spell resistance etc. don't increase. Unfortunately, this doesn't make any sense. I can understand why you'd think this, but you need to take a look at a spellcasting class again. Let's go with the wizard. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: <snip> Spells: <snip> Bonus Languages: <snip> Familiar: <snip> Scribe Scroll: <snip> Bonus Feats: <snip> Spellbooks: <snip> School Specialisation: <snip> You'll notice I snipped out everything. The reason why is quite straightforward. Point to me the sections which involve increasing your spells per day, and spells known. Spells per day is covered in "Spells", and spells known in "Spellbooks". Now point me to the section in the wizard class (or the sorcerer if you prefer) which says "Spell Power: At every level, a wizard's caster level increases by 1". It doesn't happen. Only rangers and paladins, offhand, actually have any mention of caster level anywhere in the class. Caster level is intrinsic to spells per day. You can't cast 9th level spells without a 17th caster level: that's basically a given. I can't easily prove this offhand, without resorting to psionics. But there's no reason why I can't resort to psionics (which is official) if it'll help clarify the point, and thankfully this is much more obvious in psionics. In psionics, the maximum number of power points you can manifest for one power equals your caster level. Fact. Also, 9th level powers cost 17 power points. Fact. Therefore, it is absolutely impossible to manifest a 9th level power without a caster level of 17, even if a class ability tells you that you advance your spells known and doesn't note that you advance your caster level. You can't advance your spells known without advancing your caster level. It just can't happen. Sadly, arcane magic uses spells per day, which isn't directly linked into caster level in such an obvious way (it isn't actually stated), so it's possible to make the misconception that you can learn new spells without increasing your caster level. Fact is, caster level isn't mentioned outright in the wizard class, and it's impossibly tied to spells known. If you were to increase spells known without caster level, you'd damn well make a point of it. You wouldn't just "not mention" caster level - the wizard class "doesn't mention" caster level, so if not mentioning it means it's not there, then a 20th level wizard has a caster level of 0 because he never mentioned advancing caster level in his "Spells" ability. Besides, in the table for archmage, the progression is shortened to "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class". It says, outright, that it adds a level. A level of what? Spells known? Whose ever mentioned "a wizard's spells known level"? Nobody! Oh... I know, we call it caster level. It says on the table that it advances your caster level by +1 at each level. That's the only level it could possibly be referring to by "+1 level" anyway. So yes. When you gain a level in archmage, you gain more spells known, more spells per day, and an increased caster level. You do not fail to gain an increased caster level for some mystical, unexplained reason, and also strangely repeat the 13th level of wizard over and over in terms of gaining spells known/spells per day, again for some strange, completely unexplained and illogical reason. Finally: Spells and Caster Level: Levels in the hierophant prestige class, even though they do not advance spell progression in the character’s base class, still stack with the character’s base spellcasting levels to determine caster level. Here's an exactly of the opposite progression to how you think the Archmage works. This is the Hierophant. Notice that they want to increase caster level, but not actually advance spell progression (so no more spells known and such). They state it pretty damn clearly. They know they're doing something unusual, so they leave absolutely no room to debate the matter. And that's how you do things if you're going to do something unusual, like how you claim the archmage works. [Edit] I confess, there are some discrepancies between the wording of most of the core prestige classes that continue spellcasting in some way. Usually just a sentence or two different. Arcane Trickster makes it really clear what it means, Thaumaturgist misses one sentence of clarification but contains just enough, and Archmage drops that. I can understand, noticing how it's dropped, thinking that it works differently. It takes a bit of logical reasoning into relative balances to discover that not gaining increased caster level is ridiculous, so the Archmage must get it simply because the class has no incentive whatsoever otherwise. I see that you've found your incentive by this strange repetition of the 13th level of wizard/sorcerer, but I've already explained why that isn't true.
pmurray@bigpond.com 10-23-05, 12:56 AM	I'd like to apologise, first, for my posts being unnessesarily combative to the point of being rude. I'm sorry, I'l try not to do it again: this is not a debate forum like some others I post on. :surrender: The situation seems to be, then, that a level of ACM is pretty much like a level of Wiz, except for Wiz bonus feats and the 2 free spells per level. Finally then, keeping all this in mind, would you rule that my familiar gets the extra abilities that come with being a familiar of a higer level wizard?
Illithid Tentacles 10-23-05, 01:55 AM	You're thinking of it the wrong way. What happens is, you take your wizard level to determine the base. Then you take the Archmage levels and add them to your wizard level for determining spells per day. A mage 14/archmage 5 gets exactly as many spells per day, per level, as a straight 19th level mage. See for yourself in the dozens upon dozens of NPC spellcasters with PrC levels that grants extra spells per day to your primary spellcasting class that WotC has rolled out that that's how it works.
Lord of Dorkness 10-23-05, 07:48 AM	Familiars fall under "any other benefit" of the Wizard class, sadly. So levels in Archmage do not improve your familiar's HD and abilites. There is, however, the feat "Obtain Familiar" which stacks all your caster levels of all classes and prestige classes you have. Strange enough, It's in Complete Warrior. But you might get your DM to allow it without the feat. I know I did.
runestar 10-23-05, 08:30 AM	If you really want to nitpick, he's receiving new spells/day, not new spell slots. If you look at the spell progression chart, notice that it simply lists the number of slots you have/day, and not say, lv1- +1 1st lv slot....lv17 - +1 9th lv slot, so and and so forth. So I can argue that a new spellcasting lv does not so much as add new slots, rather, it overrides it with a whole new set of spell slots available at the next lv. Thus, for a 19wiz, when you take archmage one, all your existing slots are lost and replaced by the entry for lv20 caster. When you take wiz20/arch1, all your current slots for a lv20 caster are lost and replaced by that of a 21st lv caster, that is to say, no new slots are gained. Else, there would absolutely be no point to epic class progression when everyone would be stacking all the spellcasting prcs they can find to get more spell slots. This sounds lame even by my standards, but its the best explanation I can come up with. Opinions?
pmurray@bigpond.com 10-23-05, 08:56 AM	Familiars fall under "any other benefit" of the Wizard class, sadly. So levels in Archmage do not improve your familiar's HD and abilites. Damn, i just said I was not going to do this. The table for familiar benefits says "Master[s] class level". The section on familiars also says "levels of different classes that are entittled to familiars stack for purposes of ...". IIn much the same way as there is no such thing as "spell progression level" as distinct from class level in wiz, surely there is also not a separate "familiar applicable class level", or somesuch. Surely familiar "caster level" is the same thing as spell penetration "caster level". Why on earth would they be different? To put it another way: your familiar's abilities are not dependent on your level of Wiz specifically, they are dependent on your arcane caster level in general. They are not a class feature of the wizard class specifically, they are something that any arcane caster can have as a result of messing about with arcane energies. :bigeyes: It really looks like the only thing you don't get is Wizard bonus feats (if you are taking Acm against Wizard), or if you are taking in another class, the specific things mentioned as a bonus for taking a level of that class.
Lord of Dorkness 10-23-05, 09:12 AM	Like you said, "Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master’s level." But Archmage does not grant you a Summon Familiar ability, hence it's not entitled to one, so it does not stack with Wizard. Wizard and Sorcerer stack for familiars, since both grant you the related ability. If you have access to the Complete Arcane, check the entry for Alienist. It explicitly says right there that "Levels of Alienist stack with levels of any class that provide access to a familiar." And even this does not grant the Alienist to summon a familiar if he could not do so with his base class, as it says later in the paragraph. Familiars are the home turf of bookish wizards and enigmatic sorcerers. It's one of the very few reasons to take levels in wiz/sorc after 5. Consider this, please, before Rule-Zero'ing it.