Archmage & Arcane Fire [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archmage & Arcane Fire [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Klytus
11-26-03, 01:54 PM I have seen no other discussions about this, so I feel rather stupid for being the only one who has a question about this. With Arcane Fire, do you get base 1d6 of damage per level you have in Archmage, or is it 1d6 per caster level? I always thought it was the latter, but a freind has made some rather convincing argments that the former is the turest reading of the rules (with me as the DM, and he playing the Archmage - go figure!)

Anyway, it seems to me to be so not worth permanently sacrificing a 9th level spell slot to get an attack that can only do, at best, 14d6 of damage if you actually turn a 9th level spell into Arcane Fire, and if you actually manage to hit the flippin' target!

Am I missing something here?
Klytus
11-26-03, 02:11 PM ::deep sigh::

Never mind -- I found the clearly spelled out example in the 3.5 DMG of how this stupid power works. That'll teach me to rely on the SRD...
sparkster4242
11-27-03, 03:45 AM You are right, theres a reason many people never take Arcane Fire. It does have a place in some Arcane Trickster builds, however. A decently high, non-typed damage which can be used for sneak attacks is nothing to sneeze at. Generally though, most archmages have better stuff to do than throw damage at a single target.
Findail
11-27-03, 09:14 AM It's good for cantrips. A 5th level Archmage can use a 0th level spell to inflict 5d6 damage.

Also, apparently Spell Resistance doesn't work against it (though I haven't seen an official ruling), which makes it handy if you find that your spells are bouncing off an opponent's SR.
Count Arioch the 28th
11-27-03, 09:25 AM It Is a good way to use those usless low level spells up, if you are in a bad situation. Because when you're geting hammered by something nasty, and you used up all your good spells, 5d6 damage is better than Ray of frost by a long shot.
Kenkai
11-27-03, 01:18 PM not to mention how many metamagic feats you can use on a 0-level spell.

this also lets arcane tricksters load up on buffs and stuff for high level slots and use the low level ones for sneak attacks.
Count Arioch the 28th
11-28-03, 08:53 AM I don't think metamagic applies here, I beleive that Arcane fire is more of a spell like ability that you activate but giving up a spell slot.

My opinion is based from the idea that you can't alter the various divine feats with quicken or empower turning.

I would allow the meta-SLA feats to apply though.
dantedarkstar
11-28-03, 09:59 AM 1. SRD clearly says 'archmage class levels'
2. It also clearly states it's Supernatural ability, so no SR
3. What the heck with meta ? Even if it was Sp, you couldn't. And shot from arcane fire is NOT a spell, so it doesn't have level
4. Since it's Su, not Sp, you can't Meta-Sp Arcane Fire

And I agree it's generally of low usefulness.

Should be epic feat Improved Arcane Fire that gives +2d6 damage and +80ft range (analogy to Improved Sneak Attack).
Xorial
11-28-03, 01:23 PM The only other thing that makes it worth taking, is that there is no savings throw. You have to hit, that's it. I've read it over a number of times, but see no save listed. If there was, I wouldnt take it. Be better off casting a delayed blast fireball.
Kenkai
11-28-03, 02:14 PM Originally posted by dantedarkstar
3. What the heck with meta ? Even if it was Sp, you couldn't. And shot from arcane fire is NOT a spell, so it doesn't have level

jeez sue me. i was mistaken :rolleyes:
AlteredEgo
11-29-03, 02:35 AM Originally posted by Xorial
The only other thing that makes it worth taking, is that there is no savings throw. You have to hit, that's it. I've read it over a number of times, but see no save listed. If there was, I wouldnt take it. Be better off casting a delayed blast fireball.

Versus a similar-level Ranger or Rogue? DBF would slide right off them. Give me a ranged-touch spell any day over that. :D

(Monks are usually equally effective vs DBF and ranged touch, hence I did not mention them)
Whakapapa
11-29-03, 12:30 PM Originally posted by Xorial
The only other thing that makes it worth taking, is that there is no savings throw. You have to hit, that's it. I've read it over a number of times, but see no save listed. If there was, I wouldnt take it. Be better off casting a delayed blast fireball.

or Polar Ray (8th level spell, no saving throw either and up to 25d6 damage)
(Psi)SeveredHead
11-29-03, 01:41 PM Arcane Fire is useful at the end of the day :)
Ramses III
11-30-03, 11:55 PM Where it's useful is in the ability to prepare noncombat spells that you MIGHT need but still burn them for damage if you need an attack in a pinch.
Klytus
12-01-03, 05:11 AM I've no doubt that Arcane Fire has its uses. I'm just not so sure it is worth the permanent sacrifice of a 9th level spell slot.
dantedarkstar
12-01-03, 10:10 AM There are following benefits of Arcane Fire over Polar Ray:

1.You don't provoke AoO, don't need any verbal or somatic components
2.It does non-typed damage, so it cannot be resisted by any energy resistance
3.It does not allow SR
4.You don't need to prepare it

All in all, ONLY AC can save you from arcane fire. There is no ability that would allow to shrug off the damage (short of being completely immune to anything, like when under Temporal Stasis or something like that)

And I agree 9th level slot is quite high price for it, but as I said, against super-magic immune guys it is priceless.

Hmm... actually, you could blast a golem with it. Magic Immunity only specifies spells and spell-like effects that allow SR. Arcane fire is neither of the three.
Lord Arkhaven
12-01-03, 10:12 AM The usefulness is in its variety. It gives arcane casters an alternative means of attack, one that is non-magical in nature. It's consistant, non-energy damage. For power it uses the spells you don't find yourself casting, so there is a greater chance that at the end of the day you will have used every spell and used them well. When paired up with arcane trickster it becomes a primary attack form.

Overall it's a worthy ability. Not broken, but worthy.
Klytus
12-01-03, 10:32 AM Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven

Overall it's a worthy ability. Not broken, but worthy.

Maybe that's why Elminster has it...
selenar
11-15-04, 04:43 PM can you use arcane fire at will?
Klytus
11-15-04, 05:10 PM can you use arcane fire at will?

Yes. So long as you have spells to burn, you can use Arcane Fire at will.
TyraaloftheFist
11-15-04, 06:51 PM Well, besides the circumstances listed above, it provides an interesting way to get out of ropes/chains/fetters, and is also undisarmable.You could also get the DM to house-rule that spell slots that you couldn't fill due to not having a spellbook with you can be sacrificed to zap enemies with direct damage.
Klytus
11-15-04, 07:38 PM You could also get the DM to house-rule that spell slots that you couldn't fill due to not having a spellbook with you can be sacrificed to zap enemies with direct damage.
You could, but there is no need. Even if you lack the Feat: Spell Mastery, every Wizard can prepare Read Magic without a spellbook. Just load up the "empty" slots with that spell and let 'er rip. The house rule would be to rule that even if one lacks the Feat: Heighten Spell, that read magic prepared with an 8th level spell slot will do damage as an 8th level spell when turned to Arcane Fire.
selenar
11-16-04, 01:37 PM sorry.

I wanted to know if you can use arcane fire only with the d6 of the archmage class level without using spellslot?

Is it more clear now?
Klytus
11-16-04, 02:04 PM sorry.

I wanted to know if you can use arcane fire only with the d6 of the archmage class level without using spellslot?

Is it more clear now?
Yes, this is more clear.

Since the description of the power clearly states, "The archmage gains the ability to change arcane spell energy into arcane fire..." (from the 3.5 SRD) I would rule that yes, you must use a spellslot to use arcane fire.
Valoy_Muniz
11-16-04, 05:00 PM But here is where all your 0 level spells come in for 5d6 damage.
selenar
11-17-04, 09:31 AM ok, thanks

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Klytus 11-26-03, 01:54 PM	I have seen no other discussions about this, so I feel rather stupid for being the only one who has a question about this. With Arcane Fire, do you get base 1d6 of damage per level you have in Archmage, or is it 1d6 per caster level? I always thought it was the latter, but a freind has made some rather convincing argments that the former is the turest reading of the rules (with me as the DM, and he playing the Archmage - go figure!) Anyway, it seems to me to be so not worth permanently sacrificing a 9th level spell slot to get an attack that can only do, at best, 14d6 of damage if you actually turn a 9th level spell into Arcane Fire, and if you actually manage to hit the flippin' target! Am I missing something here?
Klytus 11-26-03, 02:11 PM	::deep sigh:: Never mind -- I found the clearly spelled out example in the 3.5 DMG of how this stupid power works. That'll teach me to rely on the SRD...
sparkster4242 11-27-03, 03:45 AM	You are right, theres a reason many people never take Arcane Fire. It does have a place in some Arcane Trickster builds, however. A decently high, non-typed damage which can be used for sneak attacks is nothing to sneeze at. Generally though, most archmages have better stuff to do than throw damage at a single target.
Findail 11-27-03, 09:14 AM	It's good for cantrips. A 5th level Archmage can use a 0th level spell to inflict 5d6 damage. Also, apparently Spell Resistance doesn't work against it (though I haven't seen an official ruling), which makes it handy if you find that your spells are bouncing off an opponent's SR.
Count Arioch the 28th 11-27-03, 09:25 AM	It Is a good way to use those usless low level spells up, if you are in a bad situation. Because when you're geting hammered by something nasty, and you used up all your good spells, 5d6 damage is better than Ray of frost by a long shot.
Kenkai 11-27-03, 01:18 PM	not to mention how many metamagic feats you can use on a 0-level spell. this also lets arcane tricksters load up on buffs and stuff for high level slots and use the low level ones for sneak attacks.
Count Arioch the 28th 11-28-03, 08:53 AM	I don't think metamagic applies here, I beleive that Arcane fire is more of a spell like ability that you activate but giving up a spell slot. My opinion is based from the idea that you can't alter the various divine feats with quicken or empower turning. I would allow the meta-SLA feats to apply though.
dantedarkstar 11-28-03, 09:59 AM	1. SRD clearly says 'archmage class levels' 2. It also clearly states it's Supernatural ability, so no SR 3. What the heck with meta ? Even if it was Sp, you couldn't. And shot from arcane fire is NOT a spell, so it doesn't have level 4. Since it's Su, not Sp, you can't Meta-Sp Arcane Fire And I agree it's generally of low usefulness. Should be epic feat Improved Arcane Fire that gives +2d6 damage and +80ft range (analogy to Improved Sneak Attack).
Xorial 11-28-03, 01:23 PM	The only other thing that makes it worth taking, is that there is no savings throw. You have to hit, that's it. I've read it over a number of times, but see no save listed. If there was, I wouldnt take it. Be better off casting a delayed blast fireball.
Kenkai 11-28-03, 02:14 PM	Originally posted by dantedarkstar 3. What the heck with meta ? Even if it was Sp, you couldn't. And shot from arcane fire is NOT a spell, so it doesn't have level jeez sue me. i was mistaken :rolleyes:
AlteredEgo 11-29-03, 02:35 AM	Originally posted by Xorial The only other thing that makes it worth taking, is that there is no savings throw. You have to hit, that's it. I've read it over a number of times, but see no save listed. If there was, I wouldnt take it. Be better off casting a delayed blast fireball. Versus a similar-level Ranger or Rogue? DBF would slide right off them. Give me a ranged-touch spell any day over that. :D (Monks are usually equally effective vs DBF and ranged touch, hence I did not mention them)
Whakapapa 11-29-03, 12:30 PM	Originally posted by Xorial The only other thing that makes it worth taking, is that there is no savings throw. You have to hit, that's it. I've read it over a number of times, but see no save listed. If there was, I wouldnt take it. Be better off casting a delayed blast fireball. or Polar Ray (8th level spell, no saving throw either and up to 25d6 damage)
(Psi)SeveredHead 11-29-03, 01:41 PM	Arcane Fire is useful at the end of the day :)
Ramses III 11-30-03, 11:55 PM	Where it's useful is in the ability to prepare noncombat spells that you MIGHT need but still burn them for damage if you need an attack in a pinch.
Klytus 12-01-03, 05:11 AM	I've no doubt that Arcane Fire has its uses. I'm just not so sure it is worth the permanent sacrifice of a 9th level spell slot.
dantedarkstar 12-01-03, 10:10 AM	There are following benefits of Arcane Fire over Polar Ray: 1.You don't provoke AoO, don't need any verbal or somatic components 2.It does non-typed damage, so it cannot be resisted by any energy resistance 3.It does not allow SR 4.You don't need to prepare it All in all, ONLY AC can save you from arcane fire. There is no ability that would allow to shrug off the damage (short of being completely immune to anything, like when under Temporal Stasis or something like that) And I agree 9th level slot is quite high price for it, but as I said, against super-magic immune guys it is priceless. Hmm... actually, you could blast a golem with it. Magic Immunity only specifies spells and spell-like effects that allow SR. Arcane fire is neither of the three.
Lord Arkhaven 12-01-03, 10:12 AM	The usefulness is in its variety. It gives arcane casters an alternative means of attack, one that is non-magical in nature. It's consistant, non-energy damage. For power it uses the spells you don't find yourself casting, so there is a greater chance that at the end of the day you will have used every spell and used them well. When paired up with arcane trickster it becomes a primary attack form. Overall it's a worthy ability. Not broken, but worthy.
Klytus 12-01-03, 10:32 AM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven Overall it's a worthy ability. Not broken, but worthy. Maybe that's why Elminster has it...
selenar 11-15-04, 04:43 PM	can you use arcane fire at will?
Klytus 11-15-04, 05:10 PM	can you use arcane fire at will? Yes. So long as you have spells to burn, you can use Arcane Fire at will.
TyraaloftheFist 11-15-04, 06:51 PM	Well, besides the circumstances listed above, it provides an interesting way to get out of ropes/chains/fetters, and is also undisarmable.You could also get the DM to house-rule that spell slots that you couldn't fill due to not having a spellbook with you can be sacrificed to zap enemies with direct damage.
Klytus 11-15-04, 07:38 PM	You could also get the DM to house-rule that spell slots that you couldn't fill due to not having a spellbook with you can be sacrificed to zap enemies with direct damage. You could, but there is no need. Even if you lack the Feat: Spell Mastery, every Wizard can prepare Read Magic without a spellbook. Just load up the "empty" slots with that spell and let 'er rip. The house rule would be to rule that even if one lacks the Feat: Heighten Spell, that read magic prepared with an 8th level spell slot will do damage as an 8th level spell when turned to Arcane Fire.
selenar 11-16-04, 01:37 PM	sorry. I wanted to know if you can use arcane fire only with the d6 of the archmage class level without using spellslot? Is it more clear now?
Klytus 11-16-04, 02:04 PM	sorry. I wanted to know if you can use arcane fire only with the d6 of the archmage class level without using spellslot? Is it more clear now? Yes, this is more clear. Since the description of the power clearly states, "The archmage gains the ability to change arcane spell energy into arcane fire..." (from the 3.5 SRD) I would rule that yes, you must use a spellslot to use arcane fire.
Valoy_Muniz 11-16-04, 05:00 PM	But here is where all your 0 level spells come in for 5d6 damage.
selenar 11-17-04, 09:31 AM	ok, thanks