Archmage: what's the point? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archmage: what's the point? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tanegar
02-04-08, 12:50 AM I picked up the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting the other day, and I am mightily confused by the Archmage prestige class. I've seen a number of character builds that use it, and having read the class for myself, I cannot begin to understand why. Some of the high arcana would be nice to have, sure - arcane reach, mastery of elements, and mastery of shaping all strike me as very useful, and spell power is nothing to sneeze at, either - but in Mystra's holy name, at the permanent cost of a spell slot?! Under what circumstance would a wizard be willing to make that incredibly steep sacrifice?
Sinfire Titan
02-04-08, 12:59 AM I picked up the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting the other day, and I am mightily confused by the Archmage prestige class. I've seen a number of character builds that use it, and having read the class for myself, I cannot begin to understand why. Some of the high arcana would be nice to have, sure - arcane reach, mastery of elements, and mastery of shaping all strike me as very useful, and spell power is nothing to sneeze at, either - but in Mystra's holy name, at the permanent cost of a spell slot?! Under what circumstance would a wizard be willing to make that incredibly steep sacrifice?

Some things are actually worth it, and Pearls of Power make up for the slot loss. Besides, it is used as a filler more than a focus. Many builds just happen to meet the requirements for it. 5th-7th level spells are easy to blow off, and it generally works better for Focused Specialists than Generalist Wizards, as they have more spells to expend for it. And a single level of Tainted Scholar gives a crap-load of bonus spells from your Taint score being higher than the stratosphere, so the actually cost is minimal.
Jaxgaret
02-04-08, 01:00 AM Mid level spell slots < strong class features.

It's that simple.
Father Dale
02-04-08, 11:34 AM It depends on the character and the high arcana chosen.

Some high arcana are simply better than the lost spell slots. Spell Like Ability for instance, can be used to grab two uses per day of a high level spell (above 5th lvl) at the cost of a 5th lvl spell slot and the regular level of the spell slot. So if its a spell you know you are going to cast a lot, or would regular prepare at least 2 of, then the trade off is well worth it. For example, if you regularly prepare 2 Shapechanges each day, using two 9th lvl slots, you could use this ability to get Shapechange twice/day as a spell like ability at the cost of just a 9th and a 5th lvl slot, essentially trading a 5th lvl slot for a 9th lvl slot.

Others are well worth it if the ability synergizes well with your play style. Arcane Reach is fantastic for say a Necromancer who has lots of high level touch spells that won't work with Spectral Hand. Mastery of Elements is fantastic for anyone who uses lots of energy based spells (particularly for sorcerers, since this is essentially giving them 5x their spells known for all energy based spells known.)

Most of the abilities are on par with many Epic lvl feats. If the lost spell slots are really a problem, just take the extra spell slot feat to get them back. Most of those abilities are definitely better than most non-epic feats (consider Mastery of Elements compared to Energy Substitution).
Sulacu
02-04-08, 11:47 AM Let's look at it this way; the class that likely benefits best from the archmage class is a sorcerer that focuses on evocation and/or enchantment spells. A sorcerer taking levels in a prestige class that has full arcane progression loses NOTHING. That alone is a compelling argument to take such a class. There are literally no drawbacks to doing so.

Arcane Fire. At the cost of one of your ultimately 6 9th level spell slots, you learn to convert any spell slot in a ray that deals massive raw energy damage. That scraps your need for ever using a stupid and unsightly polar ray. Don't tell me that you don't want to do 25d6 damage in one attack, several times on end. Hell, quicken one and cast a second after it. Double whammy.

Arcane Reach. Enchantments or Necromancies that require touch can be delivered from 30 feet away. Any sorcerer that enters the fray would want such a power. Gone are the AoOs, and even the need for approaching potentially hazardous melee fighters disappears completely.

Mastery of Shaping: Almost the single best thing about this class. Who wouldn't like to throw delayed blast fireballs without having to worry about their friends, or erect antimagic fields with a 5 feet gap through which you can cast with impunity?

Spell-Like Ability: Turning a spell into a spell like ability is perfect for a Sorcerer who focuses on Charisma. Put in a Power Word Kill or a meteor storm and worry about pesky spell resistance no more. Or, put a gate spell in, and omit having to spend 1,000 XP every time you want to call a pit fiend to help you.

Mastery of Counterspelling: Not very interesting for a sorcerer, but a Wizard that focuses in Intelligence and has a huge Spellcraft modifier will get a huge advantage over standard spellcasters with this.

The Archmage is almost a must have for any accomplished full arcane spellcaster.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
02-04-08, 11:56 AM Wait wait wait, you are talking about the Forgotten Realms Archmage? The one with the spell power that adds to the DC of his spells right? That's insane you know. It's crazy good. Quite easily worth the level 5, 7 and 9 spell slots.
Father Dale
02-04-08, 11:59 AM Arcane Fire. At the cost of one of your ultimately 6 9th level spell slots, you learn to convert any spell slot in a ray that deals massive raw energy damage. That scraps your need for ever using a stupid and unsightly polar ray. Don't tell me that you don't want to do 25d6 damage in one attack, several times on end. Hell, quicken one and cast a second after it. Double whammy.

This ability lets you drop a spell slot to fire a ray (as a supernatural effect, meaning no save or SR) that deald 1d6 times the spell level lost plus archmage level. At most, this would be 14d6 (9th lvl spell + 5 levels of archmage), not accounting for epic level abilities...

Spell-Like Ability: Turning a spell into a spell like ability is perfect for a Sorcerer who focuses on Charisma. Put in a Power Word Kill or a meteor storm and worry about pesky spell resistance no more. Or, put a gate spell in, and omit having to spend 1,000 XP every time you want to call a pit fiend to help you.

Spell Like abilities are still subject to being resisted by SR and to being dispelled by dispel magic. Generally, they require no components of any kind; however the Archmage must still pay any XP componenent, and spells with costly material components must pay XP equal to 10 times the material cost. (Since there are no components, these can be used so long as the caster can take an action of some sort; i.e. if hes held, grappled, paralyzed, etc..) Thus, Gating in Pit Fiends still costs 1000xp. Gate is still very very good for this ability, pretty much allowing unrestricted interplanar travel, and allowing a physically incapacitated caster to call in planar buddies to help out...

Mastery of Counterspelling: Not very interesting for a sorcerer, but a Wizard that focuses in Intelligence and has a huge Spellcraft modifier will get a huge advantage over standard spellcasters with this.

Actually, sorcerers can be very accomplished counterspellers, given their large number of spells per day and the ability to spontaneously cast Dispel Magic. Rapid Metamagic really opened this up for Sorcerers, allowing the use of the Improved Counterspell and Heighten spell combination for this, and the use of Quickened Duelwards.
Avatar of Kokusho
02-04-08, 12:18 PM Archmage is a class I recommend to almost any dedicated arcane spellcaster. Seriously.

Arcane Fire- Okay, at 5th level, you burn a spell slot to deal xd6+5d6 untyped damage to your target. This is not subject to nasty things such as energy resistance, immunity, etc...it's pure blast without the drawback. My character likes to toss off 13th level slots with this one...

Mastery of Shaping: Not only can you avoid your melee allies with whatever area effect you want, you can sculpt other nondamaging spells into rather interesting shapes. Additionally, any spell that's already shapeable will have a minimum dimension of five feet instead of ten...which allows for more versatility in where you place things.

Mastery of Elements: No prep needed, and unlike Energy Substitution, you can use sonic energy, which is resisted by few creatures.

Mastery of Counterspelling: Mix this with Improved Counterspell, go epic, take Reactive Counterspell and Epic Counterspell. All no, all the time, and you send things right back in their face.

Spell-Like Ability: Not too shabby; a decent option for sorcerers, as you gain two uses or more for the investment.

Arcane Reach: Best for necromancers and transmuters, as touch spells can be rather nasty, but what mage wants to get into melee to do it?

Spell Power: Unless you use our house rule that spell power works like 3.0 Spell Power, don't take this.
ikki
02-04-08, 01:24 PM How about tossing pseudo-slots?
You know... circle magic..

Iirc the highest you can make a spell is level 40 with that, but thats still 45d6 you could be blasting. Frequently at that. Its all about having those self-simulcras to boost you..

So now you guys and gals know wht szass tam rokkks :D
Nec20/red10/acm5 iirc.. and truly unbeatable spells.
Jaxgaret
02-04-08, 03:28 PM Wait wait wait, you are talking about the Forgotten Realms Archmage? The one with the spell power that adds to the DC of his spells right? That's insane you know. It's crazy good. Quite easily worth the level 5, 7 and 9 spell slots.

OMG 3.0 Archmage!! I forgot about that monster... *drool*
dawnbringer
02-04-08, 03:56 PM Er, father dale, I don't know what you're thinking, but spell like abilities most certainly do NOT have to pay XP requirements.

Edit: It appears that doesn't apply to the archmage specifically.
PhaedrusXY
02-04-08, 04:00 PM Since there are several feats that can mostly reproduce alot of the Archmage's tricks now, I tend to agree that it isn't worth the cost for most mages. I don't like the idea of giving up spell slots permanently, either.

Also, if you didn't know, the 3.5 version is available online in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm)
Sinfire Titan
02-04-08, 04:09 PM Er, father dale, I don't know what you're thinking, but spell like abilities most certainly do NOT have to pay XP requirements.

Edit: It appears that doesn't apply to the archmage specifically.

Yup.

Spell-Like Ability

An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.
ninjarabbit
02-04-08, 06:51 PM I've used the archmage PrC with a warmage and it was super-effective with it.

Mastery of shaping was a no brainer.

Spell-like ability works nicely in combination with the arcane disciple feat to get around the 1/day restriction arcane disciple puts on any spells you learn from it. I was able to effectively cast heal and shapechange 3/day because of this.

Mastery of counterspells, arcane fire, and mastery of elements were obviously worthless to my warmage.

Spell power was nice for boosting my blasting power.
ff6shadow
02-05-08, 04:10 PM Since there are several feats that can mostly reproduce alot of the Archmage's tricks now, I tend to agree that it isn't worth the cost for most mages. I don't like the idea of giving up spell slots permanently, either.

Also, if you didn't know, the 3.5 version is available online in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm)

Sure, I dislike giving up spell slots as much as the next wizard, but if he's getting to use the 3.0 Archmage, then it well worth it. One 5th, 7th, and 9th level slot for +3 caster level and DC? This is why the only 3.0 game I've ever played in ended. The DM got sick of the ridiculous save DCs. (of course I was a Red Wizard a well.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tanegar 02-04-08, 12:50 AM	I picked up the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting the other day, and I am mightily confused by the Archmage prestige class. I've seen a number of character builds that use it, and having read the class for myself, I cannot begin to understand why. Some of the high arcana would be nice to have, sure - arcane reach, mastery of elements, and mastery of shaping all strike me as very useful, and spell power is nothing to sneeze at, either - but in Mystra's holy name, at the permanent cost of a spell slot?! Under what circumstance would a wizard be willing to make that incredibly steep sacrifice?
Sinfire Titan 02-04-08, 12:59 AM	I picked up the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting the other day, and I am mightily confused by the Archmage prestige class. I've seen a number of character builds that use it, and having read the class for myself, I cannot begin to understand why. Some of the high arcana would be nice to have, sure - arcane reach, mastery of elements, and mastery of shaping all strike me as very useful, and spell power is nothing to sneeze at, either - but in Mystra's holy name, at the permanent cost of a spell slot?! Under what circumstance would a wizard be willing to make that incredibly steep sacrifice? Some things are actually worth it, and Pearls of Power make up for the slot loss. Besides, it is used as a filler more than a focus. Many builds just happen to meet the requirements for it. 5th-7th level spells are easy to blow off, and it generally works better for Focused Specialists than Generalist Wizards, as they have more spells to expend for it. And a single level of Tainted Scholar gives a crap-load of bonus spells from your Taint score being higher than the stratosphere, so the actually cost is minimal.
Jaxgaret 02-04-08, 01:00 AM	Mid level spell slots < strong class features. It's that simple.
Father Dale 02-04-08, 11:34 AM	It depends on the character and the high arcana chosen. Some high arcana are simply better than the lost spell slots. Spell Like Ability for instance, can be used to grab two uses per day of a high level spell (above 5th lvl) at the cost of a 5th lvl spell slot and the regular level of the spell slot. So if its a spell you know you are going to cast a lot, or would regular prepare at least 2 of, then the trade off is well worth it. For example, if you regularly prepare 2 Shapechanges each day, using two 9th lvl slots, you could use this ability to get Shapechange twice/day as a spell like ability at the cost of just a 9th and a 5th lvl slot, essentially trading a 5th lvl slot for a 9th lvl slot. Others are well worth it if the ability synergizes well with your play style. Arcane Reach is fantastic for say a Necromancer who has lots of high level touch spells that won't work with Spectral Hand. Mastery of Elements is fantastic for anyone who uses lots of energy based spells (particularly for sorcerers, since this is essentially giving them 5x their spells known for all energy based spells known.) Most of the abilities are on par with many Epic lvl feats. If the lost spell slots are really a problem, just take the extra spell slot feat to get them back. Most of those abilities are definitely better than most non-epic feats (consider Mastery of Elements compared to Energy Substitution).
Sulacu 02-04-08, 11:47 AM	Let's look at it this way; the class that likely benefits best from the archmage class is a sorcerer that focuses on evocation and/or enchantment spells. A sorcerer taking levels in a prestige class that has full arcane progression loses NOTHING. That alone is a compelling argument to take such a class. There are literally no drawbacks to doing so. Arcane Fire. At the cost of one of your ultimately 6 9th level spell slots, you learn to convert any spell slot in a ray that deals massive raw energy damage. That scraps your need for ever using a stupid and unsightly polar ray. Don't tell me that you don't want to do 25d6 damage in one attack, several times on end. Hell, quicken one and cast a second after it. Double whammy. Arcane Reach. Enchantments or Necromancies that require touch can be delivered from 30 feet away. Any sorcerer that enters the fray would want such a power. Gone are the AoOs, and even the need for approaching potentially hazardous melee fighters disappears completely. Mastery of Shaping: Almost the single best thing about this class. Who wouldn't like to throw delayed blast fireballs without having to worry about their friends, or erect antimagic fields with a 5 feet gap through which you can cast with impunity? Spell-Like Ability: Turning a spell into a spell like ability is perfect for a Sorcerer who focuses on Charisma. Put in a Power Word Kill or a meteor storm and worry about pesky spell resistance no more. Or, put a gate spell in, and omit having to spend 1,000 XP every time you want to call a pit fiend to help you. Mastery of Counterspelling: Not very interesting for a sorcerer, but a Wizard that focuses in Intelligence and has a huge Spellcraft modifier will get a huge advantage over standard spellcasters with this. The Archmage is almost a must have for any accomplished full arcane spellcaster.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 02-04-08, 11:56 AM	Wait wait wait, you are talking about the Forgotten Realms Archmage? The one with the spell power that adds to the DC of his spells right? That's insane you know. It's crazy good. Quite easily worth the level 5, 7 and 9 spell slots.
Father Dale 02-04-08, 11:59 AM	Arcane Fire. At the cost of one of your ultimately 6 9th level spell slots, you learn to convert any spell slot in a ray that deals massive raw energy damage. That scraps your need for ever using a stupid and unsightly polar ray. Don't tell me that you don't want to do 25d6 damage in one attack, several times on end. Hell, quicken one and cast a second after it. Double whammy. This ability lets you drop a spell slot to fire a ray (as a supernatural effect, meaning no save or SR) that deald 1d6 times the spell level lost plus archmage level. At most, this would be 14d6 (9th lvl spell + 5 levels of archmage), not accounting for epic level abilities... Spell-Like Ability: Turning a spell into a spell like ability is perfect for a Sorcerer who focuses on Charisma. Put in a Power Word Kill or a meteor storm and worry about pesky spell resistance no more. Or, put a gate spell in, and omit having to spend 1,000 XP every time you want to call a pit fiend to help you. Spell Like abilities are still subject to being resisted by SR and to being dispelled by dispel magic. Generally, they require no components of any kind; however the Archmage must still pay any XP componenent, and spells with costly material components must pay XP equal to 10 times the material cost. (Since there are no components, these can be used so long as the caster can take an action of some sort; i.e. if hes held, grappled, paralyzed, etc..) Thus, Gating in Pit Fiends still costs 1000xp. Gate is still very very good for this ability, pretty much allowing unrestricted interplanar travel, and allowing a physically incapacitated caster to call in planar buddies to help out... Mastery of Counterspelling: Not very interesting for a sorcerer, but a Wizard that focuses in Intelligence and has a huge Spellcraft modifier will get a huge advantage over standard spellcasters with this. Actually, sorcerers can be very accomplished counterspellers, given their large number of spells per day and the ability to spontaneously cast Dispel Magic. Rapid Metamagic really opened this up for Sorcerers, allowing the use of the Improved Counterspell and Heighten spell combination for this, and the use of Quickened Duelwards.
Avatar of Kokusho 02-04-08, 12:18 PM	Archmage is a class I recommend to almost any dedicated arcane spellcaster. Seriously. Arcane Fire- Okay, at 5th level, you burn a spell slot to deal xd6+5d6 untyped damage to your target. This is not subject to nasty things such as energy resistance, immunity, etc...it's pure blast without the drawback. My character likes to toss off 13th level slots with this one... Mastery of Shaping: Not only can you avoid your melee allies with whatever area effect you want, you can sculpt other nondamaging spells into rather interesting shapes. Additionally, any spell that's already shapeable will have a minimum dimension of five feet instead of ten...which allows for more versatility in where you place things. Mastery of Elements: No prep needed, and unlike Energy Substitution, you can use sonic energy, which is resisted by few creatures. Mastery of Counterspelling: Mix this with Improved Counterspell, go epic, take Reactive Counterspell and Epic Counterspell. All no, all the time, and you send things right back in their face. Spell-Like Ability: Not too shabby; a decent option for sorcerers, as you gain two uses or more for the investment. Arcane Reach: Best for necromancers and transmuters, as touch spells can be rather nasty, but what mage wants to get into melee to do it? Spell Power: Unless you use our house rule that spell power works like 3.0 Spell Power, don't take this.
ikki 02-04-08, 01:24 PM	How about tossing pseudo-slots? You know... circle magic.. Iirc the highest you can make a spell is level 40 with that, but thats still 45d6 you could be blasting. Frequently at that. Its all about having those self-simulcras to boost you.. So now you guys and gals know wht szass tam rokkks :D Nec20/red10/acm5 iirc.. and truly unbeatable spells.
Jaxgaret 02-04-08, 03:28 PM	Wait wait wait, you are talking about the Forgotten Realms Archmage? The one with the spell power that adds to the DC of his spells right? That's insane you know. It's crazy good. Quite easily worth the level 5, 7 and 9 spell slots. OMG 3.0 Archmage!! I forgot about that monster... drool
dawnbringer 02-04-08, 03:56 PM	Er, father dale, I don't know what you're thinking, but spell like abilities most certainly do NOT have to pay XP requirements. Edit: It appears that doesn't apply to the archmage specifically.
PhaedrusXY 02-04-08, 04:00 PM	Since there are several feats that can mostly reproduce alot of the Archmage's tricks now, I tend to agree that it isn't worth the cost for most mages. I don't like the idea of giving up spell slots permanently, either. Also, if you didn't know, the 3.5 version is available online in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm)
Sinfire Titan 02-04-08, 04:09 PM	Er, father dale, I don't know what you're thinking, but spell like abilities most certainly do NOT have to pay XP requirements. Edit: It appears that doesn't apply to the archmage specifically. Yup. Spell-Like Ability An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.
ninjarabbit 02-04-08, 06:51 PM	I've used the archmage PrC with a warmage and it was super-effective with it. Mastery of shaping was a no brainer. Spell-like ability works nicely in combination with the arcane disciple feat to get around the 1/day restriction arcane disciple puts on any spells you learn from it. I was able to effectively cast heal and shapechange 3/day because of this. Mastery of counterspells, arcane fire, and mastery of elements were obviously worthless to my warmage. Spell power was nice for boosting my blasting power.
ff6shadow 02-05-08, 04:10 PM	Since there are several feats that can mostly reproduce alot of the Archmage's tricks now, I tend to agree that it isn't worth the cost for most mages. I don't like the idea of giving up spell slots permanently, either. Also, if you didn't know, the 3.5 version is available online in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm) Sure, I dislike giving up spell slots as much as the next wizard, but if he's getting to use the 3.0 Archmage, then it well worth it. One 5th, 7th, and 9th level slot for +3 caster level and DC? This is why the only 3.0 game I've ever played in ended. The DM got sick of the ridiculous save DCs. (of course I was a Red Wizard a well.)