Archvist as a wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archvist as a wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sooperspook
10-20-05, 03:58 AM At its simplest would be changing the Archivists spell list but keeping everything else.

Would this make the class excessivly powerful? would it be about the same?

I've been thinking about ways to make the plain vanilla wizard a little less... well... plain vanilla, and the Archivist definatly has a wizardly, seeker of knowledge feel about him.

What does everyone think? Any future problems you can forsee if i do this?
Quirriff
10-20-05, 06:38 AM The Archivist can cast any divine spell so long as he can copy it from a scroll, They can learn and cast polymorph even, since its on the adepts spell list.

If you want a wizard be a Generalist Wizard.
allenchan
10-20-05, 06:41 AM I see no reason to make the Archivist cast arcane spells, since they can attain most arcane spells as-is through various divine sources. If anything, it would make the archivist weaker.
RunningWilder
10-20-05, 07:50 AM I see no reason to make the Archivist cast arcane spells, since they can attain most arcane spells as-is through various divine sources. If anything, it would make the archivist weaker.

Yup. Far weaker.

I had a notion that I was toying with for a class that focused on the "Dark Arts", and it would be capable of casting any spell from the schools of Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination and Necromancy (as arcane spells) regardless of the spell list they were on, learning them from scrolls (and only able to use those schools). I'm still not sure of the balance, since it does remove just about every blasting spell out there. I wouldn't suggest going that road with the Archivist though.
runestar
10-20-05, 07:52 AM An arcane archivist would conceivably be more powerful than a normal wizard.

Otto's irresistable dance at lv11? Hold person at lv3? Access to healing spells as a cleric? Bestow curse at lv5? The arcane spell lists seem even more abusable than the divine spell list.

Oh, but the potential for abuse.....
sooperspook
10-20-05, 09:18 AM Hmm i don't think i explained that properly.

I don't want to give the archivist arcane spells as well as divine spells. I was thinking of replacing his divine spell list with arcane spell list.

Quirrif: The thing is I think the Archivist has more of a seeker-of-knowledge feel than the Generalist wizard does. I was thinking of replacing the wizard with an arcane version of the Archivist.
runestar
10-20-05, 10:13 AM I don't want to give the archivist arcane spells as well as divine spells. I was thinking of replacing his divine spell list with arcane spell list.

My point exactly. That would be making it even more broke, IMO.
Silverthumb128
10-20-05, 12:47 PM Just do what I've already done. Multiclass the two. :D The build I'm using is Archivist/Wizard/Loremaster. You can easily use Mystic Theurge, of course. That can be a good 20th level build(Arch 5/Wiz 5/MT 10), but I just love the Archivist's abilities.

Let me just add, for fun's sake, my Arc/Wiz/Lore took 20 levels of Archivist first, then started out Epic levels with Collegiate Wizard(his Int mod by then was 9), so his Spellbook is gonna be immense, while still receiving numerous boosts from divine spells.
allenchan
10-20-05, 04:45 PM Hmm i don't think i explained that properly.

I don't want to give the archivist arcane spells as well as divine spells. I was thinking of replacing his divine spell list with arcane spell list.

Quirrif: The thing is I think the Archivist has more of a seeker-of-knowledge feel than the Generalist wizard does. I was thinking of replacing the wizard with an arcane version of the Archivist.

Core only, that means giving up Cleric, Druid, and Paladin lists for Sorc/Wiz and Bard.

Yea, I'd say Arcane is weaker, because most good arcane spells can be got through cleric domains.
beaver1024
10-20-05, 09:17 PM It would make the archivist weaker than it is now if you were to narrow the archivist breadth of spells down to merely arcane spells.
runestar
10-20-05, 09:56 PM There are plenty of other classes with arcane spell lists.

WuJen/Warmage/nar demonbinder/hexblade/assassin etc. Oh the fun of mix and matching different spell lists to find the lowest lv spells available.
allenchan
10-20-05, 10:10 PM There are plenty of other classes with arcane spell lists.

WuJen/Warmage/nar demonbinder/hexblade/assassin etc. Oh the fun of mix and matching different spell lists to find the lowest lv spells available.

Hence how I said core only.

I guess assassin could count as core only though, forgot about that one.
Mirikon
10-20-05, 10:23 PM At its simplest would be changing the Archivists spell list but keeping everything else.

Would this make the class excessivly powerful? would it be about the same?

I've been thinking about ways to make the plain vanilla wizard a little less... well... plain vanilla, and the Archivist definatly has a wizardly, seeker of knowledge feel about him.

What does everyone think? Any future problems you can forsee if i do this?

Why not look at some of the wizard variants in Unearthed Arcana? They have some interesting things you can do with specialist wizards there.
sooperspook
10-21-05, 01:22 AM So the general consensus is that it would make the Archivist weaker? ok then. Hmmm... Would it make him weaker than the core wizard? I'm of the opnion that an arcane Arcivist would be more powerful than the core wizard. but that s just me.

can anyone give me some specific examples of why they think it would be weaker/more powerful?

oh and Thanks for all the replies guys :)
Blaque
10-21-05, 09:17 AM Archivist is considered stronger then Wizard for the main reasons as I can see:
- Better hit die.
- Int+4 skills/level for an Int-baed caster, while Wizards get Int+2/level because its assumed that'd it be high anyhow.
- Better armor proficiencies (light and medium v. none), and no spell failure in armor.
- Can scribe to spell book from any divine spells, be it cleric, druid, shugenja, mystic, or healer.
- Two good saves, versus one.
- A few extra special abilities.

The only thing Wizards really have over that IMHO is the better spell list (arcane), but that is negated by the fact that the Archivist gets a lot of the spells through domains or early on. Wizards also get more bonus feats and the famliiar, but once again, I feel the Archivist abilites make up for those, and they get soem obnus feats too.

Now, my idea might scream nerf, but here's my take:
- Int+2/level skill points, like the other Int-based casters (Wizards and Wu Jen.)
- Will only good save (Like most full-casters out there save Clerics and Druids. Hell, it make sit so Shugenja don't feel as gimped too, I htink.)
- d4 hit die. Once again, like Wizards and Wu Jen, who they are most simaller to.
- No armor proficiencies, once again, like Wizard and Wu Jen.
- Make bonus spells based on Int, just to calm down on the gimpage.

Does this make the class significantly weaker hten it is now? Yeah. But I thin kthose, with the Dark Lore, and the other tricks the class can pull, make it much more in-line wiht the class it seems to be trying to emulate, which is a very flavorful wizard.

Stuff.
RunningWilder
10-21-05, 06:33 PM Archivist is considered stronger then Wizard for the main reasons as I can see:
- Better hit die.
- Int+4 skills/level for an Int-baed caster, while Wizards get Int+2/level because its assumed that'd it be high anyhow.
- Better armor proficiencies (light and medium v. none), and no spell failure in armor.
- Can scribe to spell book from any divine spells, be it cleric, druid, shugenja, mystic, or healer.
- Two good saves, versus one.
- A few extra special abilities.

The only thing Wizards really have over that IMHO is the better spell list (arcane), but that is negated by the fact that the Archivist gets a lot of the spells through domains or early on. Wizards also get more bonus feats and the famliiar, but once again, I feel the Archivist abilites make up for those, and they get soem obnus feats too.

Now, my idea might scream nerf, but here's my take:
- Int+2/level skill points, like the other Int-based casters (Wizards and Wu Jen.)
- Will only good save (Like most full-casters out there save Clerics and Druids. Hell, it make sit so Shugenja don't feel as gimped too, I htink.)
- d4 hit die. Once again, like Wizards and Wu Jen, who they are most simaller to.
- No armor proficiencies, once again, like Wizard and Wu Jen.
- Make bonus spells based on Int, just to calm down on the gimpage.

Does this make the class significantly weaker hten it is now? Yeah. But I thin kthose, with the Dark Lore, and the other tricks the class can pull, make it much more in-line wiht the class it seems to be trying to emulate, which is a very flavorful wizard.

Stuff.

So what you're actually saying is that you're going to give a wizard the Dark Lore ability. That's completely different.
Blaque
10-21-05, 07:43 PM Erm, not quite. The Archivist keeps the lore stuff. Wizards get metamagics, the normal spell list, and the option to be a specialist wizard.

And stuff.
RunningWilder
10-21-05, 07:53 PM Erm, not quite. The Archivist keeps the lore stuff. Wizards get metamagics, the normal spell list, and the option to be a specialist wizard.

And stuff.

Ask yourself this. Are you simply taking out the wizards feats, familiar, and abillity to specialize and replacing it with the archvist stuff, or are you changing the archivists saves, hit dice, skill points, armor and weapon profs, and type of casting to be like that of a wizard? It sounds much more like you're just changing to wizard to be like the archivist.
Blaque
10-21-05, 08:03 PM I'm of the idea the archivist should be more like the wizard, myself. Seeing as what I suggest changes the archivist mechanically, not the wizard, I see it as doing such.

Stuff.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sooperspook 10-20-05, 03:58 AM	At its simplest would be changing the Archivists spell list but keeping everything else. Would this make the class excessivly powerful? would it be about the same? I've been thinking about ways to make the plain vanilla wizard a little less... well... plain vanilla, and the Archivist definatly has a wizardly, seeker of knowledge feel about him. What does everyone think? Any future problems you can forsee if i do this?
Quirriff 10-20-05, 06:38 AM	The Archivist can cast any divine spell so long as he can copy it from a scroll, They can learn and cast polymorph even, since its on the adepts spell list. If you want a wizard be a Generalist Wizard.
allenchan 10-20-05, 06:41 AM	I see no reason to make the Archivist cast arcane spells, since they can attain most arcane spells as-is through various divine sources. If anything, it would make the archivist weaker.
RunningWilder 10-20-05, 07:50 AM	I see no reason to make the Archivist cast arcane spells, since they can attain most arcane spells as-is through various divine sources. If anything, it would make the archivist weaker. Yup. Far weaker. I had a notion that I was toying with for a class that focused on the "Dark Arts", and it would be capable of casting any spell from the schools of Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination and Necromancy (as arcane spells) regardless of the spell list they were on, learning them from scrolls (and only able to use those schools). I'm still not sure of the balance, since it does remove just about every blasting spell out there. I wouldn't suggest going that road with the Archivist though.
runestar 10-20-05, 07:52 AM	An arcane archivist would conceivably be more powerful than a normal wizard. Otto's irresistable dance at lv11? Hold person at lv3? Access to healing spells as a cleric? Bestow curse at lv5? The arcane spell lists seem even more abusable than the divine spell list. Oh, but the potential for abuse.....
sooperspook 10-20-05, 09:18 AM	Hmm i don't think i explained that properly. I don't want to give the archivist arcane spells as well as divine spells. I was thinking of replacing his divine spell list with arcane spell list. Quirrif: The thing is I think the Archivist has more of a seeker-of-knowledge feel than the Generalist wizard does. I was thinking of replacing the wizard with an arcane version of the Archivist.
runestar 10-20-05, 10:13 AM	I don't want to give the archivist arcane spells as well as divine spells. I was thinking of replacing his divine spell list with arcane spell list. My point exactly. That would be making it even more broke, IMO.
Silverthumb128 10-20-05, 12:47 PM	Just do what I've already done. Multiclass the two. :D The build I'm using is Archivist/Wizard/Loremaster. You can easily use Mystic Theurge, of course. That can be a good 20th level build(Arch 5/Wiz 5/MT 10), but I just love the Archivist's abilities. Let me just add, for fun's sake, my Arc/Wiz/Lore took 20 levels of Archivist first, then started out Epic levels with Collegiate Wizard(his Int mod by then was 9), so his Spellbook is gonna be immense, while still receiving numerous boosts from divine spells.
allenchan 10-20-05, 04:45 PM	Hmm i don't think i explained that properly. I don't want to give the archivist arcane spells as well as divine spells. I was thinking of replacing his divine spell list with arcane spell list. Quirrif: The thing is I think the Archivist has more of a seeker-of-knowledge feel than the Generalist wizard does. I was thinking of replacing the wizard with an arcane version of the Archivist. Core only, that means giving up Cleric, Druid, and Paladin lists for Sorc/Wiz and Bard. Yea, I'd say Arcane is weaker, because most good arcane spells can be got through cleric domains.
beaver1024 10-20-05, 09:17 PM	It would make the archivist weaker than it is now if you were to narrow the archivist breadth of spells down to merely arcane spells.
runestar 10-20-05, 09:56 PM	There are plenty of other classes with arcane spell lists. WuJen/Warmage/nar demonbinder/hexblade/assassin etc. Oh the fun of mix and matching different spell lists to find the lowest lv spells available.
allenchan 10-20-05, 10:10 PM	There are plenty of other classes with arcane spell lists. WuJen/Warmage/nar demonbinder/hexblade/assassin etc. Oh the fun of mix and matching different spell lists to find the lowest lv spells available. Hence how I said core only. I guess assassin could count as core only though, forgot about that one.
Mirikon 10-20-05, 10:23 PM	At its simplest would be changing the Archivists spell list but keeping everything else. Would this make the class excessivly powerful? would it be about the same? I've been thinking about ways to make the plain vanilla wizard a little less... well... plain vanilla, and the Archivist definatly has a wizardly, seeker of knowledge feel about him. What does everyone think? Any future problems you can forsee if i do this? Why not look at some of the wizard variants in Unearthed Arcana? They have some interesting things you can do with specialist wizards there.
sooperspook 10-21-05, 01:22 AM	So the general consensus is that it would make the Archivist weaker? ok then. Hmmm... Would it make him weaker than the core wizard? I'm of the opnion that an arcane Arcivist would be more powerful than the core wizard. but that s just me. can anyone give me some specific examples of why they think it would be weaker/more powerful? oh and Thanks for all the replies guys :)
Blaque 10-21-05, 09:17 AM	Archivist is considered stronger then Wizard for the main reasons as I can see: - Better hit die. - Int+4 skills/level for an Int-baed caster, while Wizards get Int+2/level because its assumed that'd it be high anyhow. - Better armor proficiencies (light and medium v. none), and no spell failure in armor. - Can scribe to spell book from any divine spells, be it cleric, druid, shugenja, mystic, or healer. - Two good saves, versus one. - A few extra special abilities. The only thing Wizards really have over that IMHO is the better spell list (arcane), but that is negated by the fact that the Archivist gets a lot of the spells through domains or early on. Wizards also get more bonus feats and the famliiar, but once again, I feel the Archivist abilites make up for those, and they get soem obnus feats too. Now, my idea might scream nerf, but here's my take: - Int+2/level skill points, like the other Int-based casters (Wizards and Wu Jen.) - Will only good save (Like most full-casters out there save Clerics and Druids. Hell, it make sit so Shugenja don't feel as gimped too, I htink.) - d4 hit die. Once again, like Wizards and Wu Jen, who they are most simaller to. - No armor proficiencies, once again, like Wizard and Wu Jen. - Make bonus spells based on Int, just to calm down on the gimpage. Does this make the class significantly weaker hten it is now? Yeah. But I thin kthose, with the Dark Lore, and the other tricks the class can pull, make it much more in-line wiht the class it seems to be trying to emulate, which is a very flavorful wizard. Stuff.
RunningWilder 10-21-05, 06:33 PM	Archivist is considered stronger then Wizard for the main reasons as I can see: - Better hit die. - Int+4 skills/level for an Int-baed caster, while Wizards get Int+2/level because its assumed that'd it be high anyhow. - Better armor proficiencies (light and medium v. none), and no spell failure in armor. - Can scribe to spell book from any divine spells, be it cleric, druid, shugenja, mystic, or healer. - Two good saves, versus one. - A few extra special abilities. The only thing Wizards really have over that IMHO is the better spell list (arcane), but that is negated by the fact that the Archivist gets a lot of the spells through domains or early on. Wizards also get more bonus feats and the famliiar, but once again, I feel the Archivist abilites make up for those, and they get soem obnus feats too. Now, my idea might scream nerf, but here's my take: - Int+2/level skill points, like the other Int-based casters (Wizards and Wu Jen.) - Will only good save (Like most full-casters out there save Clerics and Druids. Hell, it make sit so Shugenja don't feel as gimped too, I htink.) - d4 hit die. Once again, like Wizards and Wu Jen, who they are most simaller to. - No armor proficiencies, once again, like Wizard and Wu Jen. - Make bonus spells based on Int, just to calm down on the gimpage. Does this make the class significantly weaker hten it is now? Yeah. But I thin kthose, with the Dark Lore, and the other tricks the class can pull, make it much more in-line wiht the class it seems to be trying to emulate, which is a very flavorful wizard. Stuff. So what you're actually saying is that you're going to give a wizard the Dark Lore ability. That's completely different.
Blaque 10-21-05, 07:43 PM	Erm, not quite. The Archivist keeps the lore stuff. Wizards get metamagics, the normal spell list, and the option to be a specialist wizard. And stuff.
RunningWilder 10-21-05, 07:53 PM	Erm, not quite. The Archivist keeps the lore stuff. Wizards get metamagics, the normal spell list, and the option to be a specialist wizard. And stuff. Ask yourself this. Are you simply taking out the wizards feats, familiar, and abillity to specialize and replacing it with the archvist stuff, or are you changing the archivists saves, hit dice, skill points, armor and weapon profs, and type of casting to be like that of a wizard? It sounds much more like you're just changing to wizard to be like the archivist.
Blaque 10-21-05, 08:03 PM	I'm of the idea the archivist should be more like the wizard, myself. Seeing as what I suggest changes the archivist mechanically, not the wizard, I see it as doing such. Stuff.