Are any classes broken Before 10th level? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are any classes broken Before 10th level? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ezell Pike
05-09-07, 05:59 PM By broken I mean overpowered. It seems that the power gulf between casters and non-casters is much smaller.

Some classes seem to do their job too well (this may be because of overspeciallization of new classes IMO) especially at low level. Duskblade and Warblade for instance do single target damage. That's pretty much their gimmick, do they do it so well that they create a TPK kind of imbalance?
windscar18
05-09-07, 06:14 PM Depends on how early. At level 1, the only thing you really have to do is hit something over the head with a stick, and you kill something, so it isn't so broken, though characters with a high HD and actually relevent abilities have a signficant advantage. Even at early levels though, the small HD target spells are useful for ending encounters quickly. Thus, casters still have an advantage in some ways.
DracoPhoenix
05-09-07, 06:21 PM Even at early levels though, the small HD target spells are useful for ending encounters quickly. Thus, casters still have an advantage in some ways.

QFT : Kobolds + sleep = free xp :)
not Yoda
05-09-07, 06:27 PM But at that level casters really are glass cannons. crappy hp crappy ac. not to mention that at that level monsters typically just have attacks be they ranged or melee as opposed to spells.
windscar18
05-09-07, 06:33 PM Yeah, which is why I added "in some ways". At low levels, the issue is surviving since it is, again, "whack something over the head and kill it immediately".

After level 5, the gap widens a good deal, and casters start to show their stupid stuff, though there's still some favor for fighters as beef tanks.
Gideon_Gideonson
05-09-07, 06:40 PM The Artificer (Can be, with the right build) and Totemist come to mind.

Both can be EXTREMELY powerful if designed correctly.

Also, the Warlock has a tendency to be suddenly really good around the time it unlocks Fell Flight and Walk Unseen, although that advantage goes away pretty quickly.
Omnicronwarlord
05-09-07, 06:46 PM Divine Minion cheese that leads to Pun-Pun lol
Tempest Stormwind
05-09-07, 06:50 PM Druid.

Merely very good from levels 1-4, especially if you amp your animal companion. d8 HD, medium armor (hide), shields, medium base attack, respectable skills, spells of assorted sorts, and an animal companion which is comparable to an average fighter (give it barding) on most of those levels is hardly a bad start.

You get crowned king at level 5 with Wild Shape, and also an upgrade to your animal companion if you want. If the MM3 is open, go fleshraker (dinosaur).

Level 6 is Natural Spell.

By level 8, you're never in humanoid form again.

Since you can ignore your Strength and Dexterity altogether, and druids don't need Intelligence or Charisma, you can pour all your points into Constitution and Wisdom as well. If you're willing to work behind your team for a while, a druid with 8/8/18/8/18/8 can actually compete -- and if you're at level 5 or higher, excel. Since you have an 18 Wisdom, an 18 Con, full casting levels, and a d8 HD, not Yoda's complaint doesn't really apply in this case.
bitnine
05-09-07, 09:11 PM I like looking at level 1 in a vacuum and using a int 20 elf focused specialist/abrupt jaunt wizard with either Mind Over Body or Faerie Mysteries Initiate. Immediate action teleport 5/day, 9 HP, and 5 spells/day. I guess you take a bow or something. Then I place this character into a deathmatch!! against another character on an open featureless plane. (I also use an elaborate rig of wooden barriers on wheels dragged by a rope for added ridiculous fun.)

From what I've seen, this is how class balance is determined.
turalisj
05-09-07, 09:21 PM The warlock is only powerfull at level 6-8, when they can move around relativly undetected.
Lina_Inverse
05-09-07, 11:05 PM From what I've seen, this is how class balance is determined.

Class balance is based on usefullness to a party in an adventureing enviroment.

Anyways, CoDzilla are overpowered from day one. The only classes that really goes though major power curve changes is the wizard and fighter, most other classes are relatively stable in there position of class power.
bitnine
05-10-07, 08:32 AM Class balance is based on usefullness to a party in an adventureing enviroment.Well, that doesn't make much sense. If that were true, why do I see so many examples of evaluations based on one on one fighter/wizard comparisons making use of MORTAL KOMBAT!?

No, what you use is a character balance thunderdome. Two classes enter, one leaves. And whoever gets out alive wins that level. My Boxy McPoppy above wins his deathmatch!!, so wizards win level one.

Are you new to these boards or something?
runestar
05-10-07, 08:37 AM Well, that doesn't make much sense. If that were true, why do I see so many examples of evaluations based on one on one fighter/wizard comparisons making use of MORTAL KOMBAT!?
It works both ways. When you play in a game, you typically want to be known as the mage who killed the dragon with a titanic combination of spells, not the healer who patched up the fighter or was responsible for hasting him. Few people like playing second fiddle in games, and and fewer enjoy doing it for an extended period of time.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-10-07, 08:45 AM The reason why you see "deathmatch" comparisons being used on the boards is because that's how a lot of other games try to do it and a lot of people don't realize that this isn't how D&D does it.

D&D characters, as per official material, are balanced on the basis of what they bring to a party in an adventuring environment, not on the basis of their solo performance and certainly not limited to combat issues. That's straight from the people who wrote/write the books.
runestar
05-10-07, 09:57 AM It is, of course, quite possible for a class to excel in both, should there ever be a need to.:)
tricky_bob
05-10-07, 10:50 AM The reason why you see "deathmatch" comparisons being used on the boards is because that's how a lot of other games try to do it and a lot of people don't realize that this isn't how D&D does it.

D&D characters, as per official material, are balanced on the basis of what they bring to a party in an adventuring environment, not on the basis of their solo performance and certainly not limited to combat issues. That's straight from the people who wrote/write the books.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Chimaera2000
05-10-07, 03:54 PM Both clerics and artificers can be overpowered around level 6-7+ due to their ability to ignore metamagic costs via Divine Metamagic and Metamagic Item/Spell Trigger. Particulalry, this allows you to use Persistent Spell (Complete Arcane) far before you'd be able to normally. Artificers can also use the above abilities to ignore metamagic costs to unleash horribly high-powered direct-damage spells. An artificer with the right feats (Empower Spell, Twin Spell, Quicken Spell, Energy Admixture, Two-Weapon Fighting, Dual Wand Wielder, Wand Mastery) can pump out thirty-six rays doing 6d6 each (total 216d6 damage) in a single round using dual-wielded scorching ray wands. You could apply the same to fireball if you wanted to post slightly lower numbers against multiple foes (three bursts of 60d6 each, total 180d6 damage). You'll burn through wands very quickly if you're not careful, but you can turn enemies into smoldering craters.

The druid can be overpowered due to the aforementioned Wild Shape + Animal Companion, particularly with access to fleshraker form. They have access to quill blast, a rather overpowered spell that wins encounters instantly if you have access to save-or-dies (as the cleric does at this level).
Ezell Pike
05-10-07, 04:40 PM I sense a trend. (CoDzilla roars in agreement)

By artificer I am assuming you mean the base class not the prc.

I have only seen 2 druids in play they just aren't well liked in my group.
Blazanar
05-10-07, 08:48 PM i am currently playing a 9th level Lawful Good Halforc,

warlock/3 paladin/4 hunter of the dead/2

if u play in an undead campaign do this but if ur on a regular campaigne u do this

warlock/5 Paladin/4....if u mess with invoacations and feats u can tottaly rip apart a group but u need buffers and main fighters so u should get fell flight.nothing rarely will ever hurt u...try it out..gooood
Linklegacy77
05-10-07, 09:38 PM I once played in an all cleric f2f game, starting at level 1.

Let me say, that we were much, much more powerful than a standard party of a fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric.

In fact, we were ridiculous. By level 5, we were pretty much creaming 4 to 5 encounters EL 8 or higher each per day.
magmer2
05-10-07, 10:38 PM Psionic warriors can be broken at ~8-10 range by getting a psicrystal that can manifest an 8th level power.
Tempest Stormwind
05-10-07, 10:45 PM Psionic warriors can be broken at ~8-10 range by getting a psicrystal that can manifest an 8th level power.

If they spend all their feats on getting a pet rock that can do that once per day, with a terrible DC due to weak mental stats, it's similar to the wizard who uses all his funds to buy 9th level scrolls. Except you can get multiple scrolls at the same point -- and if any one of them is Shapechange, Wish, or Gate, you can use it to become Pun-Pun.
Lina_Inverse
05-10-07, 10:49 PM By artificer I am assuming you mean the base class not the prc.

Yep. In a game where characters are defined by there stuff, the king of stuff is king.
magmer2
05-11-07, 01:47 AM If they spend all their feats on getting a pet rock that can do that once per day, with a terrible DC due to weak mental stats, it's similar to the wizard who uses all his funds to buy 9th level scrolls. Except you can get multiple scrolls at the same point -- and if any one of them is Shapechange, Wish, or Gate, you can use it to become Pun-Pun.
Except that it can be done once per day. So It amounts to a 1/day battle ender. Also at First level it could get Leadership, and a fourth level cohort.
Lina_Inverse
05-11-07, 02:31 AM Except that it can be done once per day. So It amounts to a 1/day battle ender.

Which is definitely not broken in D&D.
An entire party of one shot nova bombs is perfectly balanced interestingly enough. 4 PCs, so 4 encounters and there spent, with the additional downside of rolling over and dieing to encounter #5.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ezell Pike 05-09-07, 05:59 PM	By broken I mean overpowered. It seems that the power gulf between casters and non-casters is much smaller. Some classes seem to do their job too well (this may be because of overspeciallization of new classes IMO) especially at low level. Duskblade and Warblade for instance do single target damage. That's pretty much their gimmick, do they do it so well that they create a TPK kind of imbalance?
windscar18 05-09-07, 06:14 PM	Depends on how early. At level 1, the only thing you really have to do is hit something over the head with a stick, and you kill something, so it isn't so broken, though characters with a high HD and actually relevent abilities have a signficant advantage. Even at early levels though, the small HD target spells are useful for ending encounters quickly. Thus, casters still have an advantage in some ways.
DracoPhoenix 05-09-07, 06:21 PM	Even at early levels though, the small HD target spells are useful for ending encounters quickly. Thus, casters still have an advantage in some ways. QFT : Kobolds + sleep = free xp :)
not Yoda 05-09-07, 06:27 PM	But at that level casters really are glass cannons. crappy hp crappy ac. not to mention that at that level monsters typically just have attacks be they ranged or melee as opposed to spells.
windscar18 05-09-07, 06:33 PM	Yeah, which is why I added "in some ways". At low levels, the issue is surviving since it is, again, "whack something over the head and kill it immediately". After level 5, the gap widens a good deal, and casters start to show their stupid stuff, though there's still some favor for fighters as beef tanks.
Gideon_Gideonson 05-09-07, 06:40 PM	The Artificer (Can be, with the right build) and Totemist come to mind. Both can be EXTREMELY powerful if designed correctly. Also, the Warlock has a tendency to be suddenly really good around the time it unlocks Fell Flight and Walk Unseen, although that advantage goes away pretty quickly.
Omnicronwarlord 05-09-07, 06:46 PM	Divine Minion cheese that leads to Pun-Pun lol
Tempest Stormwind 05-09-07, 06:50 PM	Druid. Merely very good from levels 1-4, especially if you amp your animal companion. d8 HD, medium armor (hide), shields, medium base attack, respectable skills, spells of assorted sorts, and an animal companion which is comparable to an average fighter (give it barding) on most of those levels is hardly a bad start. You get crowned king at level 5 with Wild Shape, and also an upgrade to your animal companion if you want. If the MM3 is open, go fleshraker (dinosaur). Level 6 is Natural Spell. By level 8, you're never in humanoid form again. Since you can ignore your Strength and Dexterity altogether, and druids don't need Intelligence or Charisma, you can pour all your points into Constitution and Wisdom as well. If you're willing to work behind your team for a while, a druid with 8/8/18/8/18/8 can actually compete -- and if you're at level 5 or higher, excel. Since you have an 18 Wisdom, an 18 Con, full casting levels, and a d8 HD, not Yoda's complaint doesn't really apply in this case.
bitnine 05-09-07, 09:11 PM	I like looking at level 1 in a vacuum and using a int 20 elf focused specialist/abrupt jaunt wizard with either Mind Over Body or Faerie Mysteries Initiate. Immediate action teleport 5/day, 9 HP, and 5 spells/day. I guess you take a bow or something. Then I place this character into a deathmatch!! against another character on an open featureless plane. (I also use an elaborate rig of wooden barriers on wheels dragged by a rope for added ridiculous fun.) From what I've seen, this is how class balance is determined.
turalisj 05-09-07, 09:21 PM	The warlock is only powerfull at level 6-8, when they can move around relativly undetected.
Lina_Inverse 05-09-07, 11:05 PM	From what I've seen, this is how class balance is determined. Class balance is based on usefullness to a party in an adventureing enviroment. Anyways, CoDzilla are overpowered from day one. The only classes that really goes though major power curve changes is the wizard and fighter, most other classes are relatively stable in there position of class power.
bitnine 05-10-07, 08:32 AM	Class balance is based on usefullness to a party in an adventureing enviroment.Well, that doesn't make much sense. If that were true, why do I see so many examples of evaluations based on one on one fighter/wizard comparisons making use of MORTAL KOMBAT!? No, what you use is a character balance thunderdome. Two classes enter, one leaves. And whoever gets out alive wins that level. My Boxy McPoppy above wins his deathmatch!!, so wizards win level one. Are you new to these boards or something?
runestar 05-10-07, 08:37 AM	Well, that doesn't make much sense. If that were true, why do I see so many examples of evaluations based on one on one fighter/wizard comparisons making use of MORTAL KOMBAT!? It works both ways. When you play in a game, you typically want to be known as the mage who killed the dragon with a titanic combination of spells, not the healer who patched up the fighter or was responsible for hasting him. Few people like playing second fiddle in games, and and fewer enjoy doing it for an extended period of time.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-10-07, 08:45 AM	The reason why you see "deathmatch" comparisons being used on the boards is because that's how a lot of other games try to do it and a lot of people don't realize that this isn't how D&D does it. D&D characters, as per official material, are balanced on the basis of what they bring to a party in an adventuring environment, not on the basis of their solo performance and certainly not limited to combat issues. That's straight from the people who wrote/write the books.
runestar 05-10-07, 09:57 AM	It is, of course, quite possible for a class to excel in both, should there ever be a need to.:)
tricky_bob 05-10-07, 10:50 AM	The reason why you see "deathmatch" comparisons being used on the boards is because that's how a lot of other games try to do it and a lot of people don't realize that this isn't how D&D does it. D&D characters, as per official material, are balanced on the basis of what they bring to a party in an adventuring environment, not on the basis of their solo performance and certainly not limited to combat issues. That's straight from the people who wrote/write the books. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Chimaera2000 05-10-07, 03:54 PM	Both clerics and artificers can be overpowered around level 6-7+ due to their ability to ignore metamagic costs via Divine Metamagic and Metamagic Item/Spell Trigger. Particulalry, this allows you to use Persistent Spell (Complete Arcane) far before you'd be able to normally. Artificers can also use the above abilities to ignore metamagic costs to unleash horribly high-powered direct-damage spells. An artificer with the right feats (Empower Spell, Twin Spell, Quicken Spell, Energy Admixture, Two-Weapon Fighting, Dual Wand Wielder, Wand Mastery) can pump out thirty-six rays doing 6d6 each (total 216d6 damage) in a single round using dual-wielded scorching ray wands. You could apply the same to fireball if you wanted to post slightly lower numbers against multiple foes (three bursts of 60d6 each, total 180d6 damage). You'll burn through wands very quickly if you're not careful, but you can turn enemies into smoldering craters. The druid can be overpowered due to the aforementioned Wild Shape + Animal Companion, particularly with access to fleshraker form. They have access to quill blast, a rather overpowered spell that wins encounters instantly if you have access to save-or-dies (as the cleric does at this level).
Ezell Pike 05-10-07, 04:40 PM	I sense a trend. (CoDzilla roars in agreement) By artificer I am assuming you mean the base class not the prc. I have only seen 2 druids in play they just aren't well liked in my group.
Blazanar 05-10-07, 08:48 PM	i am currently playing a 9th level Lawful Good Halforc, warlock/3 paladin/4 hunter of the dead/2 if u play in an undead campaign do this but if ur on a regular campaigne u do this warlock/5 Paladin/4....if u mess with invoacations and feats u can tottaly rip apart a group but u need buffers and main fighters so u should get fell flight.nothing rarely will ever hurt u...try it out..gooood
Linklegacy77 05-10-07, 09:38 PM	I once played in an all cleric f2f game, starting at level 1. Let me say, that we were much, much more powerful than a standard party of a fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric. In fact, we were ridiculous. By level 5, we were pretty much creaming 4 to 5 encounters EL 8 or higher each per day.
magmer2 05-10-07, 10:38 PM	Psionic warriors can be broken at ~8-10 range by getting a psicrystal that can manifest an 8th level power.
Tempest Stormwind 05-10-07, 10:45 PM	Psionic warriors can be broken at ~8-10 range by getting a psicrystal that can manifest an 8th level power. If they spend all their feats on getting a pet rock that can do that once per day, with a terrible DC due to weak mental stats, it's similar to the wizard who uses all his funds to buy 9th level scrolls. Except you can get multiple scrolls at the same point -- and if any one of them is Shapechange, Wish, or Gate, you can use it to become Pun-Pun.
Lina_Inverse 05-10-07, 10:49 PM	By artificer I am assuming you mean the base class not the prc. Yep. In a game where characters are defined by there stuff, the king of stuff is king.
magmer2 05-11-07, 01:47 AM	If they spend all their feats on getting a pet rock that can do that once per day, with a terrible DC due to weak mental stats, it's similar to the wizard who uses all his funds to buy 9th level scrolls. Except you can get multiple scrolls at the same point -- and if any one of them is Shapechange, Wish, or Gate, you can use it to become Pun-Pun. Except that it can be done once per day. So It amounts to a 1/day battle ender. Also at First level it could get Leadership, and a fourth level cohort.
Lina_Inverse 05-11-07, 02:31 AM	Except that it can be done once per day. So It amounts to a 1/day battle ender. Which is definitely not broken in D&D. An entire party of one shot nova bombs is perfectly balanced interestingly enough. 4 PCs, so 4 encounters and there spent, with the additional downside of rolling over and dieing to encounter #5.