Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Propane 08-13-07, 07:24 PM	I don't see very much mention of archer type classes on these boards, and when I do it's not often positive. Why is that?
Robespierre 08-13-07, 07:26 PM	Because, just like in counter-strike and other FPS games, people hate campers... And while I must agree that campers suck, in D&D it is nice to use a nice ranged fighting character one in a while, be it when DMing or as a player.
solbergb 08-13-07, 07:55 PM	Archers are funny. They actually work pretty well right out of the core rules, with just ranger and/or fighter levels, and they get just enough support from other splatbooks to be even better with a few carefully chosen spells/feats from those books. Unlike most melee, they have no trouble putting out steady damage from full attacks every round. They tend not to tank as well and they're kind of like a caster where the special attacks (trip, grapple, disarm) can take away a significant chunk of their offense. I find a decently built archer to be a solid contributer at most tables. Because the class basically works and isn't too hard to figure out, you don't get a lot of "my archer sucks, help!" kindsof posts. Because it just does damage and maybe scouting, they tend to contribute well, but not be overpowering, so you don't see a lot of "the archer is dominating play wahhh!" kinds of posts. There is also a small but noisy minority that thinks that every encounter will end in a wind wall if the archer is in the party. They're the same people who think that grapple never works after level 7 because of freedom of movement and larger monsters. Yes, there is stuff that shuts down an archer, but that's true of most classes and if you are fullBAB and strong, as most archers are, you can probably find something else to do, especialy since the game system tends to encourage a touch of spellcasting in many archer builds. There is also a small but noisy minority that thinks that because if your GM is on drugs and allows divine metamagic persistent and nightsticks and starts the campaign at level 10ish instaead of level 1, a cleric archer makes any other build obsolete. Most folks who play archers are pretty happy with them. Most folks who play with archers are not annoyed with them unless they've somehow built an ineffectual one. (it can be done. The most common trap is thinking they don't need strength) Because archers are kind of "middle of the road" in power and contribution, they don't get a lot of press on these boards. You mostly hear about the stuff perceived to be weak, and the stuff perceived to be strong (regardless of the truth of the matter)
Crimson_Concerto 08-13-07, 08:45 PM	If you mean in the homebrew department, maybe my sig could help you out? *shameless plug for a class I haven't finished, nor will I probably finish in quite a while...* ... ... ... Sorry, solbergb pretty much said everything else I was going to say. :( Ranged combatants aren't mentioned for the same reason Psychic Warriors aren't mentioned. Nobody can complain that they're very overpowered, and nobody can complain that they're all that underpowered. They exist, and that's good, but there's not too much more to say about it.
Treantmonklvl20 08-13-07, 09:26 PM	Archers also tend to be an uncommon build. It is because they fill a niche that is only very useful in large groups. (Usually long range support is given by the arcane caster - the fighter types are expected in melee). I played an archer (Ranger/Fighter/Deepwood sniper/Order of the Bow Initiate - admittedly in 3.0) and found it quite frusturating. My DM was a scrooge with magic arrows, and nobody in the group had Greater Magic Weapon. Early in the campaign the character rocked - but later on, he was stuck entering melee with a magic warhammer, since his arrows could only penetrate DR's on a Crit. By level 15 I was basically useless. For revenge, I retired the character and made a Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage and ruled the party for the rest of the campaign.
solbergb 08-13-07, 10:41 PM	archers are more common in groups that lack a credible ranged threat from their spellcasters, or in situations where tanking is dangerous and skirmishing is better (eg, you are in an environment where the primary enemy is something like giants and large animals, which can be brutal in melee but relatively easy with party that has potent ranged combat and battlefield control) Not all spellcasters care to load up on ranged "direct damage" offense, the typical prepared caster is good for one hard fight with a lot of ranged stuff and he's done (spont casters do quite a bit better, but an an archer will still outdamage them round/round vs single opponents) As with a number of classes though, you see more in 5-6 person parties. In a smaller party, what is more common is that everyone works harder at having a credible ranged threat. (in the iconic party, Tordek and Lydda don't let their missile weapons languish afer masterwork, Mialee and Jozan need to prepare a significant % of their spells as ranged direct damage or the party risks sucking vs a flying enemy or something like mounted archers) If a smaller party does have an archer, they usually replace the rogue. They are capable of doing the scouting portion of the job, and the party just has the BDF or monk or whatever walk through all the traps.... Sadly, rogues don't make especialy good archers unless they get significant support from the party casters (either blinding the enemies or casting imp invisible or similar on the rogue) or the rogue is a real UMD-monkey willing to burn consumables to make it work.
solbergb 08-13-07, 10:47 PM	I played an archer (Ranger/Fighter/Deepwood sniper/Order of the Bow Initiate - admittedly in 3.0) and found it quite frusturating. My DM was a scrooge with magic arrows, and nobody in the group had Greater Magic Weapon. Early in the campaign the character rocked - but later on, he was stuck entering melee with a magic warhammer, since his arrows could only penetrate DR's on a Crit. By level 15 I was basically useless. The ironic thing is that in 3.5, archers have the easiest time with most DR of any physical damage class. They can do all the "material" DR with arrows that aside from adamantine, are pretty cheap. They do need a holy bow or some align weapon oil/spell from cleric. DR/5 most archers can pretty much ignore after the baby levels, it cuts into the damage a little, but when you're doing 20-30 a shot it isn't noticable, and even when you're only doing 15ish you hit hard enough to contribute. Archers do have enough problem with DR10/- that investing in an elemental-bane bow or arrows is pretty worthwhile once 8k doesn't seem like a huge expense. In 3.0, all you needed was greater magic weapon. But that was true of all physical classes, and if your DM didn't hand out magic weapons, pretty much everybody hated life vs DR monsters, especially as in 3.0 DR was often much higher than in 3.5 (you could hit DR/20 at like APL6, whereas now you don't see DR/15 until you're about level 14, barring the odd iron golem encounter) As with any class that uses lots of hits rather than one big hit, an archer needs to carry all the funky arrows and if the Dm is being "Stingy" work on his craft skills and make his own from raw materials (and get the darn cleric/wizard/sorc to pack GMW - they should be anyway if the DM is holding out on magical equipment)
Argaud 08-13-07, 11:28 PM	It should be mentioned that the Force weapon enhancement (in the Magic Item Compendium, +2 enhancement) will make all the arrows into force attacks that get through all DR. Very good enhancement from mid-level and up.
Nephlite 08-14-07, 01:05 AM	It should be mentioned that the Force weapon enhancement (in the Magic Item Compendium, +2 enhancement) will make all the arrows into force attacks that get through all DR. Very good enhancement from mid-level and up. Don't fight force dragons though with it. They would be immune. I like the Marksmen class from Untapped Potential for Ranged combat.
Propane 08-14-07, 04:16 AM	I like the Marksmen class from Untapped Potential for Ranged combat. MORE sources? Fu%*(&* hell...
Argaud 08-14-07, 08:02 AM	Don't fight force dragons though with it. They would be immune. I like the Marksmen class from Untapped Potential for Ranged combat. So are Amethyst dragons, which at least are not epic. One monster out of thousands is not a serious weakness for force bows, though.
Optimator 08-14-07, 08:04 AM	A lot of Ranger spells, mostly from the SpC and Champions of Ruin, add a lot to a character's archery.