Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hoggle the great 11-05-05, 08:00 PM	ok i want to play a bard a i love the concept of a bard. the idea of magic and music fused into one is really cool. but im looking at the bard and i cant find anything good about it. it seems so inferer compared to the other classes. in general it just doesnt seem that good. i also cant find any good pristge classes for the bard ive looked in most books but cant find one. i need help any one got ideas on how i can make my bard better or a pristge class
Always-Late 11-05-05, 08:11 PM	This has been discussed to death, and someone will probably refer you to a much older (and larger) thread but, for starters... Go for a disarm with your whip, at low levels. Tactically useful while keeping yourself out of the line of fire. If you're playing with splats, try picking up song of the heart. When you reach higher levels, remember that fascinate depends on a perform check, which is easy to pump to ridiculous levels (DC 50 will save, anyone?), and massing suggestions afterwards works very will. Also, getting your diplomacy up to a +30 isn't that hard, allowing you to talke your way out of anything. (Note that the last two are pretty... unfair, for lack of a better word.) PrC's? Virtuoso, Warchanter, Troubadour of Stars, Sublime Chord, plenty of others. These are just off the top of my head. Anyway, your main complaint, as I see it, is that they can't do anything special. (ie, fighter smacks harder, sorceror casts higher, rogue sneaks better, cleric heals more), but if your party ever needs a second anything you can fill in a pinch.
Thorak 11-05-05, 09:51 PM	Can't do anything special? A bard is, hands down, the best character at fiddling with the minds of sentient creatures. Case in point; Fascinate. A DC that is so extravagantly high that, even if you max out your Will save, you probably need a 20 to save against a Bard 5 levels below you with no magical gear whatsoever. And all they need is to not be gagged. If all your DM does is high-power combat, and doesn't let you use stealth and guile, then yes, a Bard will seem weak. The same way a Wizard would, if you removed spell component pouches and forced them to get the components individually for each spell.
Wizard 11-05-05, 10:25 PM	Thorak is right. Learn, love, and memorize the text of bardic music. ----1 use/level. This is annoyingly low @ low levels, but you can bust out the tunes whenever you want around 6th level or so. Skills are the easiest modifier to get to ridiculous levels. In 3.0, it was even easier. But a cheap 2500 gp pedantic glasses of debate +5 (I just made that item up right now; +5 to Perform; modify as needed) is equivalent (as far as saves go) to a +10 headband of intellect for a wizard. You want to make the DM cry? Suggest that the BBEG turn around to "absorb the music without the polluting influence of visual display" and let your rogue set up his full TWF sneak attack routine. It's the effect that's particularly powerful---any wizard can do the same---but the difficulty of resistance.
Kobold Stew 11-05-05, 10:36 PM	Another general point about the Bard: the bigger the party, the stronger your character. Because your music can serve as a buff for all friendlies, the net benefit to the party of your action increases linearly with each additional party member. Who needs a whip when you have your harmonica?
Saytr 11-06-05, 03:04 AM	If you flip the "not good at anything" arguement on it's head it's obvious why bards are great. Better than a barbarian at everything- except combat damage Better than a wizard at everything- except magical damage Better than a cleric at everything- except healing and turning And so on.. Put him up against another class and he will attack their weaknessess and defeat them Give him a complex task and he'll finish it by himself, while everyone else gets hung up by the things they can't do. And he does some important things better than anyone, as everyone else has pointed out. Just because a class has a particular strength doesn't mean they can use it in every situation, remember that, a band can useful in any situation, and he's fun to play. Play him well. Have fun.
Shike 11-06-05, 10:26 AM	Another thing I like about the bard, though I haven't played one yet, is that they have the opportunity to KNOW EVERYTHING. That's what bardic knowledge is for, plus they get all knowledge skills in class with a 6+Int skill points. Don't know about you, but I like the looks of that.
Eyeless Blond 11-06-05, 10:33 AM	Only issue there is that you really should spend points on at least two perform skills, one hands-free and one with an instrument. You can take Versetile Performer, but that takes up a precious feat slot, and bards are more feat-hungry than any other class except maybe the warlock. Another great feat you want is Disguise Spell, which has the interesting side effect of basically preventing you from ever being counterspelled except with Dispel Magic.
Blas de Lezo 11-06-05, 12:15 PM	I think Versatile Performer is a great feat. If you're playing a bard you should have, at least, and Int of 14. With the feat, that's 3 different perfomances, paying the skillpoints of only 1. Let's say Perform (chanting), Perform (string) and Perform (songblade) are great choices. Thus, Versatile Performer is like having 2 virtual skillpoints more per level, if you usually use more than one performance (and you should, afterall). But it isn't just that, if you combine two kind of permformances (chanting and playing lute, or chanting and "playing" the songblade, so cool), you receive a +2 bonus to your Perfomances checks, wich is just great for boosting DCs, etc. Be sure that the most powerful bard feature (and the most unique) is the bardic music. Try to maximize it with some feats like Song of the Heart, Lingering Song, Disguise Spell or Subsonics. If you want a bard also capable of fighting, I suggest choosing no-feat-intensive ways. For melee, Weapon Finesse is ok. Archery is rather expensive, as it needs 3 feats to work in an acceptable way (Precise Shot, PBS, Rapid Shot), but if you really like an archer bard, it's better to take just 1 feat: Craft Arms and Armors and craft your own bow with a lot of bane arrows for each enemy kind. If you don't like fighting, however, you should get Vow of Non-Violence, great for a bard, as it pumps your spell DCs at the cost of not harming humanoids or monstrous humanoids. If you want a Diplomatic-Demon bard, it's always better to take 1 level dip in Marshall. However, personally I don't consider multiclassing (not even PrCing).
TinManFan 11-06-05, 01:47 PM	Dip Bard? Bah, 1/2 elf with the 1st substitution lvl (Races of Destiny) gets freakin nasty. Calm Emotions at lvl one. Pretty freakin sweet. Other than that, do the goliath thing and count up how much your +1 moral bonus to dmg adds up over the campaign. Always fun to throw that in the face of the fighter types. One lvl of fighter isn't that bad of a dip tho. Gets ya martial weapons and all the armor which just screams "Please take armored spellcasting". Mithral Breastplates are fun. I know people say "Chain Shirts are better" but just the way I like playing. Plus a dip like that gets ya +2 fort save and a +1 BAB. None too shabby. And a feat. If yer going with a Archer Bard if yer first lvl is fighter, you can get all 3 as a human. Skills are tough, cause you got such a good list you don't want to hunt and peck, you wanna max everything. I suggest maxing Bluff, Diplomacy, Perform (Obviously), Sleight of Hand, Concentration (Up to 15, then screw it, your stat bonus should be able to handle the rest), Tumble, Use Magic Device, I'll say it again, USE MAGIC DEVICE, and Speak Language. Nothing ticks off a DM more than the dreaded "Oh! I can speak Ignan!" I say put a few points in all the knowledges (At least 5 in A. History for a +2 lore synergy) and let yer bonuses handle the rest. Spellcraft, eh, if it's a 3 man party and yer the only caster, max it, otherwise, let the wiz/sorc or cleric/druid deal with it. As for perform, I prefer Poetics (Leaves yer hands free) and the feat that lets you use yer highest perform score for the rest of them. Lute and Harp are good for a traditional bard just cause most magic instruments are of those kind. Feats. Combat Expertice, Imp Disarm, Ironskin Chant (FREAKIN LIFESAVER!), Disguise Spell, Lyric Metamagic, The archery tree if ya wanna, Wpn Finess, most exalted feats. The choices depend on your perfered style of play tho. As for spellcasting, the cure spells can free up the party cleric to blow his spells on divine favor, divine power and rightous might while letting you clean up with the cures. Then pick up charms and divinations, just cause most people never bother to memorize div spells and they can be a lifesaver in a pinch. Items aren't that tough. +10 Competence and Insight items for Perform, Dip, Bluff and sense motive are fun. Cloak of Cha, Vest of Resistance, and a big ol bag of holding to handle the portable pipe organ.
RadicalTaoist 11-06-05, 01:57 PM	Better than a cleric at everything- except healing and turning Incorrect. The Bard is like a Cleric but balanced.
Eyeless Blond 11-06-05, 02:12 PM	Concentration (Up to 15, then screw it, your stat bonus should be able to handle the rest) Not anymore. Check out the Extrordinary Concentration feat, which lets you maintain concentration on a spell *and* cast another in the same round!
TinManFan 11-06-05, 02:29 PM	Eh, pick up some +10 slotless items then. or one Slotless item that gives 2 +10 bonuses of differing types. Thinking about that CWItems might not be a bad idea with a Bard...
atlatyl 11-06-05, 03:34 PM	Only issue there is that you really should spend points on at least two perform skills, one hands-free and one with an instrument. You can take Versetile Performer, but that takes up a precious feat slot, and bards are more feat-hungry than any other class except maybe the warlock. One thing to note about versatile performer -- there's a +2 synergy bonus to perform from mixing instruments and voice -- and if you get an instrument that requires ranks -- like the cloaker flute, versatile preformer gives you automatic skill.