Post/Author/DateTime	Post
twiggy_trippit 04-09-05, 10:03 PM	They can use magic, have loads of skill points and a great skill list, can cure wounds, can wear armor while casting arcane spells WITH NO ARCANE SPELL FAILURE, get bardic music that litterally functions as extra spellcasting abilities with a very high DC, get free rolls to have info on about ANYTHING, can cause total social chaos should they ever desire, and they can bed whatever they want. They can even put up a decent fight if they've been built in such a way. Are they overpowered?
Count Arioch the 28th 04-09-05, 10:05 PM	Well, they can only wear light armor, medium or heavy armor does in fact incur ASF. Really, a bard isn't that great, with the exception of Bardic Knowledge. Bards have an ability to be in the right place in the right time, that's what they do better than anyone else. It's a neat ability, but far from being broken, they don't perform that well compared to a more focused class.
Manyfist 04-09-05, 10:11 PM	Hey twiggy, try playing a druid, they can cast w/o ASF, and can change Shape into a grizzly even an Elemental. That's overpowering, Druids are the worse balanced class since well they are not balanced. Bards are your jack of all trades, Human Bards are the best at it, since well all Humans are extremely adaptable.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-09-05, 10:17 PM	Really though, the druid would be just fine if it wasn't for all the bugs in shapechanging magic in 3E.
Lawrence 04-09-05, 10:24 PM	*snickers* you don't hear much complaining about the bard often. The bard is hardly unbalanced. As mentioned, it's more of overall ability and not focused. Now some choice feats can change that, but not by a whole lot. Druids are powerful, much in the way clerics are, but that's also why both classes are subject to divine law. See below for the definition of Divine law. Divine law: DM rule. if you disobey him and break your divine dedication (deity or domain worship for clerics, nature for Druids), you lose all your magic. That includes changing your alignment to a bad set. Rangers are excused from alignement issues, but if a ranger grossly breaks his nature oaths, he could lose his spells. He just isn't under as strict an oath as the Druid.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-09-05, 10:26 PM	Divine law is irrelevant. Powergamers have no problems whatsoever staying within a code of conduct. A druid who is in good standing can still overpower the game. A code of conduct is flavor text, not a balancing effect.
twiggy_trippit 04-09-05, 10:28 PM	Hey twiggy, try playing a druid, they can cast w/o ASF, and can change Shape into a grizzly even an Elemental. That's overpowering, Druids are the worse balanced class since well they are not balanced. Bards are your jack of all trades, Human Bards are the best at it, since well all Humans are extremely adaptable. For a bard, I prefer half-elves: the bonuses to saves vs. Enchantment, Diplomacy and Gather Info checks are real nice and fit the concept perfectly, and they get other nice extras on the side. A bard doesn't need the extra feat or skill point that bad, although that depends on your concept.
twiggy_trippit 04-09-05, 10:35 PM	I could easily overthrow a kingdom with a moderately high level bard. I don't think any other of the core classes would have an easier time doing this.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-09-05, 10:38 PM	No, because a rogue would ahve beaten him to it, because rogues get better skills, and can replicate anything bards can do with use magic device.
BlaineTog 04-09-05, 10:40 PM	They can use magic, have loads of skill points and a great skill list, can cure wounds, can wear armor while casting arcane spells WITH NO ARCANE SPELL FAILURE, get bardic music that litterally functions as extra spellcasting abilities with a very high DC, get free rolls to have info on about ANYTHING, can cause total social chaos should they ever desire, and they can bed whatever they want. They can even put up a decent fight if they've been built in such a way. Are they overpowered?*giggles* No. Thread over.
Lawrence 04-09-05, 10:41 PM	Divine law is irrelevant. Nosir, it's very relevant, because when you **** off the DM god, you get smoted by his mighty thumb. ;) That goes for all characters. now end of thread, or whatever was said.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-09-05, 10:44 PM	Nosir, it's very relevant, because when you **** off the DM god, you get smoted by his mighty thumb. ;) That goes for all characters. now end of thread, or whatever was said. A true powergamer will never do that, however. they know how to tow the line so they don't get smoted. (Smited? Smitten? Bah, I'm poor with my archaic verbs.) The divine law will never come up, if the person is a true power gamer.
Thorak 04-09-05, 10:45 PM	Well, they can only wear light armor, medium or heavy armor does in fact incur ASF. Really, a bard isn't that great, with the exception of Bardic Knowledge. Bards have an ability to be in the right place in the right time, that's what they do better than anyone else. It's a neat ability, but far from being broken, they don't perform that well compared to a more focused class. Not that great? Try, by level 20, being able to Fascinate 7 creatures, and then spend the next 20 rounds trying to get them to fail a Suggestion saving throw. And the DC for the Fascinate is, on average, in the 40s, if not 50s. To be clear, if you pass the SR of a Pit Fiend, a CR 20 encounter, it will almost certainly fail the saving throw. And then has to make 20 saves versus Suggestions, which however high it's save is (+21, good but not good enough) won't get it to save against 20 Suggestions. The bard's DC for that is probably at least 24, if not much higher. And even if it does resist the effect, it's only got a 32 SR. For a level 20 Bard, they need to roll a 12 or higher to pass that. It might take a round or two, but you'll make that pit fiend your plaything, and there's even a good chance you can nail the sucker with it the first round. If the encounter's a bunch of lower-CR creatures, it becomes ridiculously easy to toy with them. Even single critters, with the highest saves, will almost certainly fail. The only weakness of the bard with this one ability is spell resistance, and unthinking creatures like golems.
Manyfist 04-09-05, 10:57 PM	I don't know if any you played Ever Quest, but the Bard in there had some nifty ablities, instead of Spells they had songs that you get a certin lvls and you also had to rely on your BAB on early lvls. I like to use that Instead of spells. If you think the D&D was overpowering you should really see what a Bard later levels with a song going and musical Insturment, he was a virtual killing monster. The Druid was fun, summon elementals, Binding, then SOW. Lol enough of old memories. Honestly if you think the Bard is Overpowering take a look at some the other core races then try to pit one against a bard, a good bard with the right PRC can do any thing, but master of none.
TheMightyMcClaw 04-09-05, 11:04 PM	Hey guys, it's official! EVERY class is overpowered, in it's own special way. ^_^
Lawrence 04-09-05, 11:11 PM	A true powergamer will never do that, however. they know how to tow the line so they don't get smoted. (Smited? Smitten? Bah, I'm poor with my archaic verbs.) There's no point in arguing this, because a true powergamer will either never or always do it. :P powergaming is simply something a character does. if the DM leaves them in, it's their own fault, not the powergamer (now if the powergamer does something to bring forth wrath, then it's their fault). You deserve to be tweaked if they leave you in, and they deserve to get headaches if they let you stay in.
epifreak 04-09-05, 11:52 PM	Hey guys, it's official! EVERY class is overpowered, in it's own special way. ^_^ What's that? It rings of.....balance? In D&D!? Never!
twiggy_trippit 04-09-05, 11:58 PM	No, because a rogue would ahve beaten him to it, because rogues get better skills, and can replicate anything bards can do with use magic device. No. They don't discreetly implant DC 30-40 suggestions in the king's body guard's mind to slay said king during his sleep, all with absolutely no apparent use of magic.
Gurv 04-10-05, 12:05 AM	The divine law will never come up, if the person is a true power gamer. The divine law will never come up, if the DM is a true power gamer. If the DM is not a power gamer, and the player is attempting to be, then divine law will come up as often as it must. My suggestion is to forget trying to use alignment to determine what a divine caster can and can not do. The thousands of neverending debate threads on alignment clearly indicate that the D&D alignment rules create more questions than they answer. Better to come up with a simple list of "Do" and "Don't" for every religion, and take away power based on that instead of alignment. Done properly, the list will produce an alignment-compliant spellcaster anyway. And make sure to throw in something open-ended, like obeying higher ranking clerics, or doing as certain outsiders command, just so that you can take control back from a power gamer who has figured out the loopholes.
BlaineTog 04-10-05, 12:15 AM	No, because a rogue would ahve beaten him to it, because rogues get better skillsNot better applicable skills. and can replicate anything bards can do with use magic device.Not anything, and certainly not as well. Bards utterly pwn everyone else in social situations. Rogues come in at a moderate 2nd.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-10-05, 02:26 AM	How is a bard better in social situations? Because the rogue gets all the social skills, and has more points to spend on them. A bard has the same skills, except less points. Why do you think that a bard could be better?
TheDarkestOfAngels 04-10-05, 02:48 AM	They can use magic, in a much more limited fashion - far fewer spells per day than the wizard with a much slower spell advancement with a far more limited spell list. Lest I forget to mention the much slower spell progression that caps out at 6th level (as opposed to 9th level for wizards, sorcerers, druids, and clerics.) have loads of skill points and a great skill list, they have the best skill list in the game of all of the character classes with the 2nd best # of skill points. Being an "expert" sort of class, skills are obviously an emphasis. However, keep in mind that ranks in perform is absolutely mandatory, meaning that the bard only really has 5 + int mod to distribute. With the best skill list in the game, this can get difficult to divide up to complete satisfaction. But, again, skill focused class, the bard is. can cure wounds, with the same limitations as the rest of their magic can wear armor while casting arcane spells WITH NO ARCANE SPELL FAILURE, with light armor. and only light armor. not exactly spectacular. It'd take a feat (I forget the name) from the Complete arcane to make this better (in addition to better armor proficiency.) Meaning that a bard must still have a good dex to have a good armor class. in addition, the bard's d6 guarentees that the bard would either need to stay out of combat entirely or otherwise have a very good armor class. meaning that this is not all that spectacular. the cleric can wear any armor and not suffer ASF either. get bardic music that litterally functions as extra spellcasting abilities with a very high DC, this is only true with fascinate, but this only delays the actions of the fascinated foe and has several cavats that can foil it. get free rolls to have info on about ANYTHING, damn straight. can cause total social chaos should they ever desire, and they can bed whatever they want. They can even put up a decent fight if they've been built in such a way. they should be able to put up a decent fight. they're the best buffer in the game with decent fighitng ability in default. the amount of social chaos a bard can cause is highly, highly DM dependant, which means that it's also highly controllable by the DM within the rules of the game. (i.e. DMs don't have to cheat to make sure bards are within their expected realm of power.) Are they overpowered? No. Bards are powerful and can be used to great effect if played to their strengths like any other class, but not game breaking. Remember, the worst thing a DM could do to get his game broken by any class, rule, or system is by not understanding that class, the rules, or the d20 system. Understand the RAW (and its flaws) and a good DM will never, ever, have any such concerns.
Nedlum 04-10-05, 02:49 AM	Generally better Charisma. Plus Knowledge skills means never running out of chit-chat.
Aricandor 04-10-05, 03:06 AM	Yes. Like the barbarian rage is a good ice-breaker at parties, and the fast movement is good for getting in the front of the buffet line. :D Anyway, the the thread at hand. Bards being overpowered..? See, while you are busy playing music the the pit fiend, he will have his fun incinerating you. Or perhaps simply grappling you and make you roll Fort saves every round (bite -> devil chills and poison 1d6 con/death). Anyway, bards can indeed be very useful. In social games they shine. When it comes to combat... They do not shine as much. But they ARE good at avoiding combat. But try telling that to my players. Everytime I suggest "hey, why not play a bard?" they mumble somthing about "useless class of utter uselessness..."
Highwayman 42 04-10-05, 05:30 AM	I kind of find this thread to be a little humorous. I've been playing D&D for almost 20 years, Playing 3.0 and 3.5 since they came out on a regular basis. And the people I've always played with have seen druids and bards as perhaps the 2 weakest classes. They are both too spread out to really be effective in any situation. They have the advantage of being able to participate in just about any situation, but they aren't really as good as the more focused classes. Hence they get shoved aside often. Druids and Bards both have poor hit points, mediocre to poor armor class and lack good offensive spells. Their special abilities are kind of neat, but don't apply in a lot of situations, or they don't have time to get them off before the bad guys stomp them. I often don't have a lot of problems with balance by simply following the rule of: whatever the players can do--the DM can do in return.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-10-05, 05:36 AM	The divine law will never come up, if the DM is a true power gamer. If the DM is not a power gamer, and the player is attempting to be, then divine law will come up as often as it must. . And a true power gamer will know the code of conduct inside and out, and will never deviate from it, why is that so hard to understand? You think a powergamer will spend three hours reading a class to determine what it can and can't do, but will ignore the code of conduct? That's rediculous and you know it. Powergamers are the best roelplayers around. In fact, you might not even know that they're power gamers. As a matter of fact, I was in a campaign briefly, where I had made a half orc cleric of Kord. I know for a fact that if I wanted to, I would annihilate the rest of the group. But what's the fun in that? If I wanted to prove I had large genitals, I'd drop my britches instead of "beating" people in a cooperative game. What my character DID do is keep the party together, with my magic, my diplomacy skill, and the luck domain re-roll helped a lot in several situations. In fact, the DM made me party spokesman, and never needed to have Kord discipline me for lack of faith. In fact, we both got together, and discussed how a cleric of Kord should act, (Scriptures, code of conduct, et cetera), and even as completely nit-picky and arbitrary that DM was about such things, he never had an instance to accuse me of bad roleplaying. (In fact, he said my roleplaying was being a hinderance when we found an evil weapon and I wanted to destroy it, while the rogue wanted to use it. We came to an agreement that the rogue could have it, but I would take it and destroy it if he started acting in a sinister fashion, we had run into magic items that possessed people before in that campaign.) That, my friend, is what Powergaming is all about. And don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Nephlite 04-10-05, 09:40 AM	I kind of find this thread to be a little humorous. I've been playing D&D for almost 20 years, Playing 3.0 and 3.5 since they came out on a regular basis. And the people I've always played with have seen druids and bards as perhaps the 2 weakest classes. They are both too spread out to really be effective in any situation. They have the advantage of being able to participate in just about any situation, but they aren't really as good as the more focused classes. Hence they get shoved aside often. Druids and Bards both have poor hit points, mediocre to poor armor class and lack good offensive spells. Their special abilities are kind of neat, but don't apply in a lot of situations, or they don't have time to get them off before the bad guys stomp them. I often don't have a lot of problems with balance by simply following the rule of: whatever the players can do--the DM can do in return. Cleric have same hps, d8, better than or equal to half the classes in the PHB (Better than Bard, Rogue, Wizard, and Sorceror, but equal to Cleric, ranger, and Monk). Armor, phu-leeze, you have Shape change, turning to a Bear or something with good AC. Offensive spells like chill/heat metal (good flavor, decent damage at low levels), flsme blade (flavor, but cool), call lightning, flame strike, Ice storm, Call lightning storm, insect plague seems good, wall of fire, fireseeds can be good, firestorm, storm of vengence. They have fewer ones, but they are good ones. You can shapechange pretty fast..what do you mean bad guys will stomp them?
Molu Kai 04-10-05, 11:35 AM	From the Terms and Definitions Sticky: Power Gamer (noun), 1: A player whose primary focus in a RPG is the increase of his character’s power, usually defined in combat terms. 2: A Min/Maxer. Divine Law can certainly take an overpowered cleric down a notch. It doesn't even have to be the deity that does it. For example, the head of the order shows up. They're building a new temple. You're cleric seems to be doing so well they want a huge donation. Powergaming cleric now closer to rest of party because he has less gold to spend on magic items. Hell, high ranking evil clerics may show up and demand stuff for no other reason than they want it. If they are more important in the organization and/or have more influence with the deity, what can the PC do? As for the OP. I don't think bards are overpowered. They are the jack of all trades, masters of none. So while very versatile, they are not too powerful. In fact, none of the classes are that unbalanced as written. If they were, there would be classes that no one played. I don't get the impression that's happening.
Thorak 04-10-05, 12:11 PM	in a much more limited fashion - far fewer spells per day than the wizard with a much slower spell advancement with a far more limited spell list. Lest I forget to mention the much slower spell progression that caps out at 6th level (as opposed to 9th level for wizards, sorcerers, druids, and clerics.) Yes, but spellcasting is pretty much all sorcerors and wizards get. And spellcasting isn't even the Bard's strength. this is only true with fascinate, but this only delays the actions of the fascinated foe and has several cavats that can foil it. This simply isn't true past 6th level. Once you get there, the Fascinated creature is making a Will save against Suggestion once every round he's Fascinated. And believe me, a well-worded Suggestion or two can win the fight. Also, your allies can walk around nonchalantly and position themselves for when they want to jump the enemy. There is no limit to how many Suggestions per Fascinate the Bard can make; it's one a round. And there is no limit to how many Suggestions a day the bard can make; they're unlimited, and don't count as bardic music uses.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-10-05, 12:17 PM	Divine Law can certainly take an overpowered cleric down a notch. It doesn't even have to be the deity that does it. For example, the head of the order shows up. They're building a new temple. You're cleric seems to be doing so well they want a huge donation. Powergaming cleric now closer to rest of party because he has less gold to spend on magic items. Hell, high ranking evil clerics may show up and demand stuff for no other reason than they want it. If they are more important in the organization and/or have more influence with the deity, what can the PC do? That's not Divine law, that';s the DM being an arbitrary meathammer and doing things just to screw over one character because he feels like being a jerk. I wouldn't play with a DM that does random, arbitrary things. and niether should you. Now, can we please quit busting my chops about how somehow saying a code of conduct is flavor text, because if you keep debating me, I'm going to stop being polite to you people. Edit: I'd like to edit in a thought that the idea that the person who plays a cleric should have to contend with the DM randomly penalizing them. Sounds to me that if the DM needs to have evil dudes come out randomly to punish them, then the code of conduct obviously doesn't work and can't be defended logically.
TheDarkestOfAngels 04-10-05, 12:36 PM	Yes, but spellcasting is pretty much all sorcerors and wizards get. And spellcasting isn't even the Bard's strength. Exactly. This simply isn't true past 6th level. Once you get there, the Fascinated creature is making a Will save against Suggestion once every round he's Fascinated. And believe me, a well-worded Suggestion or two can win the fight. Also, your allies can walk around nonchalantly and position themselves for when they want to jump the enemy. That will save isn't based on the bard's perform check, so it isn't impossible to succeed. And yes, there is a limit - you said it - once per round. There is no limit to how many Suggestions per Fascinate the Bard can make; it's one a round. And there is no limit to how many Suggestions a day the bard can make; they're unlimited, and don't count as bardic music uses. and a bard can only maintain a fascinate for one round per bard level and since the bard can make a suggestion every round, the limit is also one suggestion attempt per level the fascinate is held. In any case, I'm aware of the second two things. I'm just saying they don't make a bard overpowered. (and far from underpowered, also, bardic music is the bard's strength, after all, in addition to skill aptitude.)
BlaineTog 04-10-05, 12:44 PM	Because the rogue gets all the social skills, and has more points to spend on them. A bard has the same skills, except less points.But he still has more than enough skill points to get all of them, should he desire. And believe it or not but the rogue, even a high-Int rogue, is starved for skill points. Because Skill Monkey is one of their primary roles, they need all the skill points they can get. A rogue that has to split his skill points between social skills and everything else is a weaker rogue, but the bard is meant to take the social skills, so he loses nothing. Why do you think that a bard could be better?A few things. One, Glibness. The only way for the Rogue to get this would be to max out UMD and buy a scroll of it. Casting it is far more efficient, especially since spell slots regenerate but money doesn't. Two, his other casting. The bard has charm, dominate, and other little tricks like that (including illusions). Again, while the rogue could try to emulate these, he has to go through a lot more trouble than the bard, and you can bet money that his save DC will be much much lower. Three, Charisma. Because the Bard has spellcasting, he will almost definatelly have a higher Charisma than the Rogue. Even ignoring starting Charisma (the bard will almost certainly pt a higher starting score into Cha than the rogue), I can see a Bard spending 36,000 gp for +6 to Charisma without even blinking, but would the rogue make that decision so easily? Even if the rogue does pump his Charisma, he gets far, far less from it than the Bard. Four, bardic music. Fascinate + Suggestion is an extremely good combo. The rogue won't be able to use either with anywhere near the efficiency of the bard (who can fascinate up to his bard level number of times per day and use suggestion basically as much as he wants without using anything), much less with anywhere near the save DC. Five, the bard has all knowldge skills, which means he has Knowledge (nobility and royalty) as a class skill, which means he can get +2 to his diplomacy for just 5 skill points by 2nd level. It would take the rogue 10 skill points to get it, and he would have to wait until 7th level. Six, bards have speak languages. Although this probably won't come into play often (as most parties aquire translation magic ay-sap), it's still sometimes useful. I always try to max it out for my bards. In any case, it's an option that the rogue doesn't have (unless he wants to blow two skill points per language). There may be more, but I'm blanking.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-10-05, 01:00 PM	Alright, now you're talking. There were a few things that never really came into my thought processs there, thanks for pointing them out.
PurdueDave 04-10-05, 01:25 PM	Overpowered - no. Not even with Sublime Chord. Fun to play - absolutely. They are effective at social problems. Shouldering the social tasks frees up skill points for the other PCs. They are good at buffing the party. Bardic music is very effective but only if there are a lot of PCs. I'd say if there are at least 5 total PCs then a bard is probably pulling his weight, the more the better.
Thorak 04-10-05, 02:15 PM	That will save isn't based on the bard's perform check, so it isn't impossible to succeed. And yes, there is a limit - you said it - once per round. Right. Once a round, for as many rounds as you have Bard levels. You might make the first save, but if we're even talking a 10th level bard, are you really sure you'll make all 10 saves in a row? By level 20, odds are that regardless of the target's saving throw, they'll fail a save in there somewhere. and a bard can only maintain a fascinate for one round per bard level and since the bard can make a suggestion every round, the limit is also one suggestion attempt per level the fascinate is held. Uh huh. Which is more than enough. And on the off chance it hasn't worked by the end of the Fascinate, Fascinate again. In any case, I'm aware of the second two things. I'm just saying they don't make a bard overpowered. (and far from underpowered, also, bardic music is the bard's strength, after all, in addition to skill aptitude.) I was simply correcting where you said that Fascinate "only delays the actions of the fascinated foe". Which isn't true.
twiggy_trippit 04-10-05, 10:50 PM	Overpowered - no. Not even with Sublime Chord. Fun to play - absolutely. They are effective at social problems. Shouldering the social tasks frees up skill points for the other PCs. They are good at buffing the party. Bardic music is very effective but only if there are a lot of PCs. I'd say if there are at least 5 total PCs then a bard is probably pulling his weight, the more the better. It's open to debate, but my experience with the bard has been with a very small party and his versatility seemed even more useful in this context. One should also be aware that good DMs usually set their challenges depending on the heroes capabilities, so people should stop bothering so much with the notion of the "well-balanced party" and just play whatever they like. It's a tabletop RPG, not a video game.
TheDarkestOfAngels 04-10-05, 11:26 PM	I was simply correcting where you said that Fascinate "only delays the actions of the fascinated foe". Which isn't true. it is. while you can suggest someone that's fascinated, suggestion simply works with fascinate, but it isn't fascinate. therefore, using suggestion as an example to proove that "delaying the action of those subject to the effect" is incorrect. Suggestions works with fascinate, but it is a seporate ability, so talking about the bard's fascination is different from talking about the bard's fascinate/suggestion. I made no inference to suggestion, which means that it is not included in my correct assertion. Basically, all fascinate does, and I am correct on this assertion as I was on my initial post regarding this matter, is make the creature sit and listen as long as the target isn't immediately threatened, otherwise the creature can make more saves against the effect. Suggestion is another ability that works with fascinate and can only work with fascinate, but is its own bardic music. So when I say "fascinate" I don't mean "fascinate and suggestion" unless I'm talking about bardic music in a more general sense, which I was not. I'm not trying to be haughty or arrogant or whatever, just trying to clear this up and get this subject out of the way.
TheDarkestOfAngels 04-10-05, 11:32 PM	It's a tabletop RPG, not a video game. true, but, generally speaking, balance should be important because it shouldn't always be better to do one thing than it is another. Being consistantly overshadowed by someone else because they made character-generation decisions that made them more powerful than you no matter what is not fun. This is where balance comes in. RPG or Video Game, balance is important with both mediums because any choice available to the players shouldn't result in being completely or consistantly under the shadow of the "overpowered" or "not underpowered" choice. saying that "It's a tabletop RPG, not a video game." doesn't make a lick of difference. being like a video game is not a bad thing. its a different medium that requires different rules for it to be effective and fun at the same time.
Roxlimn 04-11-05, 11:37 AM	Just a tad bit, I think. Not to the same extreme as a Cleric or a 3.5e Druid. In fact, I would say that Bards have the most even power distribution for all vocations and roles across the levels - not too weak at level 1, not earthshakingly powerful at level 20 (well, not as earthshaking as truly overpowered classes). The power spread across roles helps the Bard maintain a lower profile than otherwise could be if he could focus his efforts into just one sphere, as the Cleric and the Druid can. The new spell Inspirational Boost combined with the feats Song of the Heart and Lyric Spell can make for an extermely flexible, extremely powerful bard, suitable for multiple functions and allowing more focus where it's needed. It highlights the more broken aspects of the class. With Song of the Heart and Inspirational Boost, a 5th level bard can give as much as a +3/+3 to hit and damage plus +3 to saves against fear to his comrades for 4 times a day. For a 5th level party, that massive a bonus is really enough to make lots of otherwise balanced encounters ridiculously easy. The "overpoweredness" of the Bard here is "less apparent" because everyone's joining in on the slaughter. Bear in mind, though, that just because Mr. Bard isn't hogging the limelight doesn't mean he isn't trashing CR estimates left and right.
Dracspero 04-11-05, 11:57 AM	Of course, against undead the bard is only slightly less useless than rogues. At least he/she can buff up the party.
Roxlimn 04-11-05, 12:10 PM	I disagree. Bards can channel most of their combat powers into self or group buffs with hardly any loss of power. Of course, the Fascinate/Suggestion thing is just plain scary, but barring that, many of the Bard's combat powers are buff oriented anyway, so it's no great shakes to battle undead. Golem, ooze, or humans, Rage, Ispires, and Herosims work pretty much the same.
Cantankerous 04-11-05, 02:12 PM	The Bard is indeed a superb core class if they are used properly. By 8th level they are +6/+1 in BAB and rate a +2/+6/+6 in saves, equaling the Cleric and Druid and exceeding the Rogues set up in that respect. Their skill point range and diversity of skills leave those two classes (especially the Cleric) in the dust and they are still utilizing 3rd level spells and making use of their many class abilities as well as being focused entirely towards utilization of their greatest strength, their high charimas. Everything they have and do is really based around that single stat, allowing more diversification in outside interests than any other class possesses. While it is true that the Rogue gets more skill points with a similiar list, they are not as focused around a single important attribute which forces them to be more expansive. They do have their drawbacks, like any core class, and are less impressive at higher levels, but as a basis for any number of Prestige Classes, they are hard to equal. Isshia
twiggy_trippit 04-11-05, 11:44 PM	true, but, generally speaking, balance should be important because it shouldn't always be better to do one thing than it is another. Being consistantly overshadowed by someone else because they made character-generation decisions that made them more powerful than you no matter what is not fun. This is where balance comes in. RPG or Video Game, balance is important with both mediums because any choice available to the players shouldn't result in being completely or consistantly under the shadow of the "overpowered" or "not underpowered" choice. saying that "It's a tabletop RPG, not a video game." doesn't make a lick of difference. being like a video game is not a bad thing. its a different medium that requires different rules for it to be effective and fun at the same time. With any character building system that allows a fair degree of customization, imbalances will be an issue. I'll quote Guardians of Order's Roleplaying Manifesto: "Min/maxing and munchkinism aren't problems with the game; they're problems with the player." While game designers should correct gross cases of imbalances to make sure every class and every skill/feat/power is interesting, it still remains everyone's responsibility around the gaming table to make sure that everyone is having the time of their life playing the game. That means avoiding abusing the system when it's completely ridiculous to do so, leaving room for other players to take the spotlight, and for the GM, bringing in a few extras to give weaker characters the opportunity to shine. Those aspects are all a major part of a social RPG experience. Personally, I refuse to play with anyone who doesn't follow these basic gaming principles.
CaoSlayer 04-12-05, 08:09 AM	Of course, against undead the bard is only slightly less useless than rogues. At least he/she can buff up the party. cure X wounds spells are the bard´s turning undead
Erudite 04-12-05, 10:21 AM	Perhaps having come from years of Amber DRPG, I would hardly worry about an overpowered character, even broken ones. As DM I can always think up challenges. That being said, with every new book released, the Bard just gets better and better. Snowflake Wardance/Power Attack/Combat Expertise allows the Bard to focus on being more effective in combat. Light armor is the best armor in the game as long as Dexterity is kept maxed, either through enhancement or polymorphs. Classes like Sublime Chord and Fochlucan Lyrist offer returns at high levels when the Bard starts to droop. Magic Items like Heartfelt Gauntlets boost damage output. Bards qualify nicely for many PrCs precisely because they have a good skill list and have access to spells without losing caster levels. Will any of this stuff make the bard outshine any other class? Nope. But it will allow the Bard to continue to shine as an amazingly versatile and competent character. Long live the bard! The CO boards have plenty of Bard goodness, but mildly optimized samples below are provided. Arcane Warrior Bard 8/Mindbender1/Dragonslayer 1/Sublime Chord 2/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 7 Ur-Chord Bard 6/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 3/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 8 Party-In-a-Box (mid levels are painful, but possible) Bard 6/Druid1/Dragonslayer 1/Shadow Dancer 2/Ur-Priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 8 Bards who expect to fight should always try to grab Tireless (regional feat) + Snowflake Wardance. This can mean anywhere from +2 to +12 or more to hit, depending on level. With Power Attack and Combat Expertise, this can convert to extra damage or AC. Bards who expect to focus on Bardic Music should grab Subsonics. Bards who expect to emulate spellcasters should grab Prepare Spell (to use Sactified or Vile spells).
Gnarl 04-12-05, 01:03 PM	*rotfl* This thread is a joke right ? Get real, bards overpowered ? Something tells me I'm going to start a thread "commoners are overpowered". Come on, light armor, no hit points, at best mediocre battle-orientated spells... How to say, no the bard is not overpowered. Although I admit that wotc did quite a good job on bards in 3.5. They managed to make it decent and playable.
CaoSlayer 04-12-05, 02:16 PM	*rotfl* Come on, light armor, no hit points, at best mediocre battle-orientated spells... How to say, no the bard is not overpowered. full arcane casting at Light armor;also light armor it is usually the best one because dont screw your movement. still better hp than others arcane casters mediocre battle spells? O_O sorry but not, bards have some of the best spells in game, they have not direct damage, but things like a confusion can win any battle and alterself, haste and blink are some of the best buffers in the game. And you didnt have listed everything, you only the worst points: so it is something like: middle poor hit dice + average spell casting + bardic music + lots of skill points + bardic knowledge + 2 good saves + middle bab + nice weapons and armor selection (including no ASF at light armor). There is a little test for seeing why the bard it is almost overpowered, try to improve any of those things and you will without doubt an overpowered class. if you give them full bab, with spells like haste will fight better than fighters; if you give them d8 hit points with spells like blink or displacement will be tougher than a barbarian, with 8 skill points, will be more skilled than a rogue with a wider set of options, with full spellcasting will be uberly superior to wizards and sorcerers, ect. There is not way to improve any of the bard´s features without broking the class.
Thorak 04-12-05, 02:29 PM	*rotfl* This thread is a joke right ? Get real, bards overpowered ? Something tells me I'm going to start a thread "commoners are overpowered". Come on, light armor, Arcane casting with no ASF in light armor no hit points, But better than the other two arcane casters, and similar to the rogue's; standard hp for a skill-jockey character is a d6, rangers get a d8 because they're warrior/skill-jockeys. at best mediocre battle-orientated spells... How to say, no the bard is not overpowered. Mediocre blasting spells. Decent buffs, though, and the only class to combine arcane spells with healing spells. And, of course, you're ignoring two important factors, arguably the most important and powerful abilities. Bardic Knowledge, and Bardic Music. Bardic Knowledge because, unless you've got decent ranks in several different Knowledge skills, your character won't have a sweet clue about the properties of monsters. No character, for instance, knows that Trolls regenerate, or are vulnerable only to fire and acid damage, unless they can make a Knowledge check to figure that out, or until they've actually encountered a troll and seen it in action and what works. If you play a character who just decides to burn the body when it falls, you're metagaming, just as badly as looking at the DM's sheets. Bardic Music I've gone into enough detail on. Great party boosts, tons of times a day, and Fascinate with it's ridiculously high DC, and Suggestion with it's relatively unlimited uses per day. The Bard has two strengths. Knowing damn near everything, and being able to screw with the minds of others like no other. Everything else is gravy.
Aldukar 04-12-05, 02:59 PM	Fascinate is total garbage unless your DM typically throws encounters at you that involve a few bad guys at a time. You all conveniently overlook the fact that even at 20th level you are only effecting 7 creatures. At 9th level, you only effect 3 guys and if the encounter has more than that as soon as combat breaks out the fascinate is broken. Also, if a party of armed adventurers wander into an encounter with weapons drawn, as is typical for most groups of adventurers, then the bard can't fascinate at all. Fascinate is typically only worth while if the party knows in advance that an encounter is about to occur AND there are less critters than what the bard can fascinate AND the encountered critters aren't immediately hostile to the party. I'd love to play in a game where the GM is dumb enough to have ONE Balor in a room or just ONE dragon...no minions or anything....
Thorak 04-12-05, 06:16 PM	Fascinate is total garbage unless your DM typically throws encounters at you that involve a few bad guys at a time. You all conveniently overlook the fact that even at 20th level you are only effecting 7 creatures. At 9th level, you only effect 3 guys and if the encounter has more than that as soon as combat breaks out the fascinate is broken. And if the DM is giving you the right level of encounter, at level 9, they're less than CR 6 if there's more than three. If you can't handle a bunch of guys less than half your CR some other way, then you built the character poorly. For the fights that a quick Fireball can't answer, Fascinate does the trick. Also, if a party of armed adventurers wander into an encounter with weapons drawn, as is typical for most groups of adventurers, then the bard can't fascinate at all. Fascinate is typically only worth while if the party knows in advance that an encounter is about to occur AND there are less critters than what the bard can fascinate AND the encountered critters aren't immediately hostile to the party. Or the party uses stealth. It doesn't matter if their weapons are drawn if the enemy doesn't see them. Heaven forbid you sneak around rather than clanking through the dungeon screaming battle songs at the top of your lungs. I'd love to play in a game where the GM is dumb enough to have ONE Balor in a room or just ONE dragon...no minions or anything.... Depends. If you're level 20, and the Dragon's a Very Old Red Dragon, and there's 4 people in the party, the one dragon's CR is 21, meaning it should be a tough fight. And, just for fun, with a +23 Will save, it's gotta roll a 20 to save against Fascinate. Again, heaven forbid the DM uses encounters scaled to the party's level, and likes using big monsters rather than scads of weenies. If you were fighting 8 Red Dragons, they'd all be Young Adults. At which point, again, you use the spells they'll have trouble saving against, the ones with area effect.
Gnarl 04-13-05, 05:37 AM	Did any of you ever try to optimize a bard ? I have and I never managed to make the munchkin power builds you can get with cleric, wizards, druids and rogues. If you're a little creative, you can have a very decent bard with a trick for nearly every situation. But your best tricks don't outshine the other character classes at what they were designed for. Bards are versatile, good at some things, at best average at others, totaly useless in none. I don't call that overpowered. I call that a decent class to play, very fun if your DM creates situations where combat prowess is not the only option. Lastly, the bard needs a party to truely shine. He is better than others at boosting the party, but clerics, wizards and druids if built that way also are pretty decent party support.
Maraxus 04-13-05, 07:58 AM	Arg, so much ... possibilities to spread new knowledge .... ;) Clerics are better that bards. It's a good question, weather clerics or druids are better - I prefer the armored cleric but I see the point of wild-shaping druids. However bards are underpowered! Minor Point: Divine law: I'm thinking of a situation like this, when I read some posters here: DM: Your cleric just defeded my arch lich of extrem evilness with his overpowered abilities! he was 7 CR higher - this should have been impossible at the moment! Wait - You won't get along that easiely: Your god punishes you for that powergaming. Players: *Leave, searching for another dm.* Major Point: However, about the bard. Some mentioned fascinate/suggestion. This is really not that relevant: Fascinate (Sp): ...The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. ... Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. ... Suggestion (Sp): ...A Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier) negates the effect... So a great NO to And on the off chance it hasn't worked by the end of the Fascinate, Fascinate again. You won't even get a first attempt, is the enemy is smart (and/or prepared). Also if you have a group of enemies, and only one saves/resists the the fascinate, [b]all others are automaticly freed in his next action (He starts a battle). Fascinate is good for social situations (as much for the bard) but not interesting in a fight (as much for the bard). Another point: This make me laught: No character, for instance, knows that Trolls regenerate, or are vulnerable only to fire and acid damage, unless they can make a Knowledge check to figure that out Hey, a trolls regeneration and fire-vunerability are literal! Every peasant knows that! Bardic knowledge is useful for less common monsters (I would even rate it better then the music), but don't take the troll as an example. Say: An average character does not know, that a tendriculos should better be attacked by bludgeoning weapons or acid. Last point: Let's come to the spell-list. First important thing, nobody mentioned yet, is, that the bard only has very few spells. Whoever thought, a sorcerer has few spells must admit, that the bard has almost none at all. Than: Do you plan to really max out your charisma? At any cost? If you say yes, your d6 and 3/4 bab will be wasted compared to the sorcerer, because you will be bad in combat, anyway. If you say "no", you should better avoid spells that allow a saving throw, because is the sorcerer does not overcome the save for sure, your chances will be much worse. The direct damage spells are even worse, some sonic damage is nothing, compared with a fireball or lightning bold. So let's come to buff-spells: You have Eagle’s Splendor and Cat's Grace, but no Bear’s Endurance or Bull’s Strength. The cleric has them. Ealier. And all at once, without having to pay with "slots" for it. There are displacement and greater invisibilty, that are quite nice. I accept "good hope" as a useful spell and even haste, allthough a wizard has it ealier. Heroism, Greater is a last realy nice buff spell. But then the other casters: Cleric: Protection from alignment, Shield of Faith, Aid, Resist Energy/Protection from Energy, Death Ward, Spell Immunity, Spell Resistance, Cloak of Chaos (etc.). And I only took those that can be cast on other characters, no question, that the cleric is the greatest self-buffer. And I did not include the clerics domains, that give him a lot of power! ...And I won't mention how many great spells the wizard/sorcerer has. He has the far best spell-list, in any categorie (What more than evens out hit d4 and bad bab). In combat terms, the bard is the weakest of all. Every class has someway to kill enemies. But the bard's way is the weakest. If you say, that he is useful in social situations, I agree. A good psion (telepath) might be better, but psionics are strange anyway. ;) ...But in combat, the bard is finally weaker then the other characters.
Quirriff 04-13-05, 12:28 PM	I'd rather play a multiclass rogue than a bard, they are wimpy. If you want see an overpowered bard, try the 1e bards, I think they were 8 level fighters, 12 level theif, and a druid with extra abilities all at once!
Thorak 04-13-05, 12:33 PM	Suggestion (Sp): ...A Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier) negates the effect... Right. But if you save, you're still Fascinated. So the Bard tries again. And again. And again. Sure hope you get lucky on every single save. Another point: This make me laught: Hey, a trolls regeneration and fire-vunerability are literal! Every peasant knows that! Bardic knowledge is useful for less common monsters (I would even rate it better then the music), but don't take the troll as an example. Say: An average character does not know, that a tendriculos should better be attacked by bludgeoning weapons or acid. Try actually reading the rulebooks once in a while. It might enlighten you. From the Knowledge skill, page 78 of the PHB; "In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster's HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, the DM can give another piece of useful information." So, a Troll, being a 6HD Giant, has a Knowledge DC of 16, and the Knowledge skill you need is Knowledge: Nature. So, if you want to know it's a Troll, that it regenerates, and that it is vulnerable to fire and acid, you'd better roll a Knowledge: Nature check of at least +31. And I'm being generous, because I'm letting you identify it rather than counting that as a bit of info. Unless you can find somewhere in the core rules that says everyone knows this kind of stuff, you don't have anything to back up your claims. Until you produce that information, you are wrong. A typical PC doesn't have a sweet clue what a Troll is. They might have heard of them in fireside tales, but they only have a vague idea, at best, what they look like, and probably have no idea about their special qualities. In combat terms, the bard is the weakest of all. Every class has someway to kill enemies. But the bard's way is the weakest. You're focusing too much on killing. You get the same XP for defeating the encounter as you do for slaughtering all the enemies. And making them your willful slaves means you've got cannon fodder for the next encounter. Mental manipulation is superior to killing, because not only does it remove enemies nearly instantly, it adds to your own ranks.
TheDarkestOfAngels 04-13-05, 07:56 PM	[Bards] are wimpy. :rofl: yeah, right. and barbarian dwarfs have crap for hit points too.
Erudite 04-13-05, 08:54 PM	Regarding Bard spells: Direct damage spells are pretty, but the worst way to use your spells. Let the fighters do the damage. True power is using your spells to do what skills and hacking cannot. Divination, charm, illusions, all allow you to do things that others do not. The lack of fireball is not important. That is why Bards have UMD. Bardic feats can make a bard, along with judicious use of UMD, the equal of a fighter when it counts. The Bard has skills enough to manipulate encounters to his advantage in order to do so. Bards: not the most powerful, but with massive amounts of utility.
twiggy_trippit 04-14-05, 01:01 AM	A skilled bard with proper equipment (i.e. what he's supposed to have at his level) can deal with a large variety of situations. Versatility is extremely powerful in itself in the hands of a player with a strategic mindset, but it's exact value is far more difficult to estimate than damage output per round. Honestly, I started the whole thread as a joke; I wouldn't imagine it would get that big. People always complain that this or that class is over or underpowered, and I felt like poking fun at this continual whining. The bard isn't overpowered - it's an extremely well-balanced class that is very useful in the hands of a creative player. It is not as straightforward than a fighter or a wizard, but that doesn't mean it is worse. When it comes to dealing with whatever enemy who has a mind, the bard is an extremely apt opponent. Against mindless stuff, it gets trickier, but that's the whole point of having a party to buff tagging along, or at the very least a good UMD skill. It's true that bard shines best alongside their team - they are a support character. And as such, they sometimes do a better job than the cleric; inspire courage is better than many party boost divine spells and he gets some of the best arcane buff spells around (which are usually better the their divine counterparts). Of course, when it comes to healing and dealing with the undead, clerics are obviously unequaled (and something would be terribly wrong with the game if they weren't). Finally, the bard is the best party face in the game. High charisma, great social skills and skill points to learn them, speak language as a class skill and mind-affecting magic to complement. The bard isn't everybody's cup of tea, especially if you feel like dishing about a lot of damage points. But there are plenty of other ways you can shine with this character class; it's all a matter of what you feel like playing in this campaign. The whole point of choosing your character class is to have fun playing it. And it that regard, I think everything in the PHB has something to offer to players of every kind.
solbergb 04-14-05, 01:26 PM	Bards are another character it is very easy to screw up and seem ineffectual. In the hands of a skilled player it can be very effective, but a lot of the time what they do best it make everyone else good. Which if you are the kind of guy who counts every hit that succeeded by the amount of your inspire courage as YOUR damage, who counts the accumulated bonus damage as YOUR damage, who counts each social situation where you mitigated your companion's inane comments YOUR win and when your precise use of your small number of spell slots tips the battle you hold as a private victory...you'll love playing a Bard. If it doesn't seem real to you unless your weapon hit it and you are splattered in the gore of your enemies, to the lamentations of their loved ones, you might not like the class much. Like any spontaneous caster, spell selection must synergize with feats and class abilities for the character to feel strong. As for social..the reason bards are better than rogues is that firstly they have ALL of the diplomacy synergy bonuses on their class list (rogues lack a few) and secondly they have languages as a class skill (so they can communicate without burning spells) and thirdly, Rogues may be 8 skill points a level vs bard 5+perform, but Rogues are "expected" to have high search and disable device, and if you want to claim UMD as their strength, then they're down to 5 "free" skills too. Plus to use sneak attack in melee they want good mobility skills (5 ranks balance and jump, tumbling maxed, etc), where bards consider those skills optional, since they work just fine at range. Finally, when diplomacy fails, they can fascinate and suggest. That's not even getting into the fact that they do fairly high DC enchantment spells and due to spell list get them at the same time or earlier than the wizard. The net result is that Bards actually have a lot more skill points to play with socially than rogues do, unless rogues aren't at all trap or combat oriented (thus nerfing two of their primary class abilities).
jay 04-15-05, 04:14 AM	Not replying to anything in particular, but I just want to add my vote for the "not weak" side (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=5947913).